Ah, Looks Like It Was All In Our Heads After All :)

[Guest end3]

Read an article on one of the browser home pages.....new research suggests there is no single "godspot" in the brain, but is a complex mixture of all the parts of the brain.

 

http://www.columbiat...-spot-in-brain/

 

Edit: I misread...let me retract "but is....brain". Thanks.

 

How does the research affect you personally, End3? Does it make you wonder at all?

 

Makes me think that what the Bible said is true.....that you take away the selfish part and you connect to God. What are your thoughts?

[Guest Valk0010]

Read an article on one of the browser home pages.....new research suggests there is no single "godspot" in the brain, but is a complex mixture of all the parts of the brain.

 

http://www.columbiat...-spot-in-brain/

 

Edit: I misread...let me retract "but is....brain". Thanks.

 

How does the research affect you personally, End3? Does it make you wonder at all?

 

Makes me think that what the Bible said is true.....that you take away the selfish part and you connect to God. What are your thoughts?

Mine if you wanna here them, are this. What you mean by connect to god? I had a mystical experience, due to extreme(by my standards at any rate) stress, and I heard God talk to me. I am a atheist. Did I connect to God in that instance as well? How can I know, I doubt it because it doesn't fit with I know about the world. But how do you know, if you actually connecting to god, but just wierd unknown aspects of the brain?

[Guest end3]

My opinion here Valk. If God is the creator, and the creation affects/effects us in a way to stimulate "loss of self", then I am unsure the mechanism couldn't be built in via the creation.

[blackpudd1n]

Read an article on one of the browser home pages.....new research suggests there is no single "godspot" in the brain, but is a complex mixture of all the parts of the brain.

 

http://www.columbiat...-spot-in-brain/

 

Edit: I misread...let me retract "but is....brain". Thanks.

 

How does the research affect you personally, End3? Does it make you wonder at all?

 

Makes me think that what the Bible said is true.....that you take away the selfish part and you connect to God. What are your thoughts?

 

Well, personally, it just makes me think that there is even less evidence for a god. Getting a mental illness made me examine all of my former religious experiences, because I had to look at what my mind was capable of making me think, feel, and believe, and as a result, in order to accept and deal effectively with my illness, I also had to accept that those religious experiences were something my mind could create, too. If you're interested, I talked more about it here: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/51092-the-thing-that-started-the-process/page__fromsearch__1

 

Basically, now that I know what my mind is capable of, and knowing that religious experiences aren't all that different, it's kind of hard to think that it wasn't all in my head to begin with.

[Guest end3]

So we have many things here....I feel spiritual when:

 

At one with nature.....so if God is the creator?

When I do service for others....loss of self while doing for others, aka "works".

When I pray....loss of self while thinking of others.

Loss of self during meditation.

Music perhaps that can invoke self or selflessness.

 

And because the Bible says so?

 

And now the latest science confirms these?

 

[Guest Valk0010]

And because the Bible says so?

 

And now the latest science confirms these?

Did we need the bible to tell us this was possible, or even science? I have a feeling the reason it may be (biblical) is because people realized its just plain old human experience, while it doesn't prove religion it proves that there are very good noncarnal aspects to humanity.

 

Science is more or less here, confirming a observation noticed in the days of the bible.

[Guest end3]

Read an article on one of the browser home pages.....new research suggests there is no single "godspot" in the brain, but is a complex mixture of all the parts of the brain.

 

http://www.columbiat...-spot-in-brain/

 

Edit: I misread...let me retract "but is....brain". Thanks.

 

How does the research affect you personally, End3? Does it make you wonder at all?

 

Makes me think that what the Bible said is true.....that you take away the selfish part and you connect to God. What are your thoughts?

 

Well, personally, it just makes me think that there is even less evidence for a god. Getting a mental illness made me examine all of my former religious experiences, because I had to look at what my mind was capable of making me think, feel, and believe, and as a result, in order to accept and deal effectively with my illness, I also had to accept that those religious experiences were something my mind could create, too. If you're interested, I talked more about it here: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/51092-the-thing-that-started-the-process/page__fromsearch__1

 

Basically, now that I know what my mind is capable of, and knowing that religious experiences aren't all that different, it's kind of hard to think that it wasn't all in my head to begin with.

 

So what I am getting without knowing much about the brain.....we can have spirituality via direct stimuli and spirituality via memories. I am unclear how the brain handles memories.

[Antlerman]

So what I am getting without knowing much about the brain.....we can have spirituality via direct stimuli and spirituality via memories. I am unclear how the brain handles memories.

I was really with what you were saying up to this point. What do you mean you can experience spirituality via memories? You mean by imagining something you produce feelings of spirituality? To me spirituality is very immediate and not dependent on a thought or an idea of a memory. It is simply being and being aware of more than just our puny world we create and live in within our heads (talk about it all being in the brain!).

 

I'll say it again, the whole issue is in defining God. To say this is only in the brain and therefore negates God, is to accept an anthropomorphic mythic view of God as the defining truth of the matter. To me the question of God isn't a question at all. It's not external to us, and so therefore what we experience in the body, through our bodies, through our brains, through our minds, is to open us more and more that what and who we are. We are born of this Universe, and we truly awaken to who we are. If we call that an illusion of the brain, then we must, again we must equally recognize everything we call reality is a product of the brain as well. And yet that doesn't stop us from not seeing that an as illusion?

[blackpudd1n]

Read an article on one of the browser home pages.....new research suggests there is no single "godspot" in the brain, but is a complex mixture of all the parts of the brain.

 

http://www.columbiat...-spot-in-brain/

 

Edit: I misread...let me retract "but is....brain". Thanks.

 

How does the research affect you personally, End3? Does it make you wonder at all?

 

Makes me think that what the Bible said is true.....that you take away the selfish part and you connect to God. What are your thoughts?

 

Well, personally, it just makes me think that there is even less evidence for a god. Getting a mental illness made me examine all of my former religious experiences, because I had to look at what my mind was capable of making me think, feel, and believe, and as a result, in order to accept and deal effectively with my illness, I also had to accept that those religious experiences were something my mind could create, too. If you're interested, I talked more about it here: http://www.ex-christ...__fromsearch__1

 

Basically, now that I know what my mind is capable of, and knowing that religious experiences aren't all that different, it's kind of hard to think that it wasn't all in my head to begin with.

 

So what I am getting without knowing much about the brain.....we can have spirituality via direct stimuli and spirituality via memories. I am unclear how the brain handles memories.

 

From my understanding, certain things evoke certain responses within us. These responses are able to be induced in many ways, such as lighting, sound, chemicals, herbs, etcetera. And some of us have the good fortune of having these experiences invoked because our brain chemicals play up.

 

I found the documentary fascinating, because it looked into how even electro-magetic fields can induce these paranormal experiences for us. One girl was having issues, convinced that there was a ghost in her room. They found the source of the electromagnetic fields- a clock radio next to her bed, and when they removed it, the paranormal activity she had been experiencing ceased. Fascinating.

 

Apparently some people have a higher temporal lobe sensitivity than others. It was found that they could induce these experiences by manipulating the electromagnetic fields to the temporal lobes.

[LivingLife]

Having had a pretty solid grounding in the sciences in my HS days and subsequent career, the part of the brain most stimulated was the logical side. I can still balance an chem equation after 40 years and math is one of my strong fortes.

 

At the time of HS through puberty, my thyroid acted up and was in fact poisoning my system and affected my memory and concentration. Quite hard for a parent to see a son go from top of the class to dead last in a matter of a year. Did all the psycho BS tests and found to have an IQ higher than average bordering on genius and did the rounds with more tests an analysis till finally I was diagnosed with an over active thyroid, medication and things returned to normal and again I was in the top 5 of the class.

 

It was never a problem to tackle a complex issue from a logical standpoint but when it came to composition of poems and stories, I sucked. My imagination was always grounded in reality.

 

It was with this highly developed side of my brain I entered my woo days so witnessing all that went on, the sceptical me still kept my mind in check. Being in the P&W team, I observed the way folk were coerced into the holy of holies and yet there I was, still pretty much mechanical in my approach. Whenever they laid hands on me I felt nada and was pushed in most case to fall as I really wanted this deeper experience but invariably never got it. The logical me was too predominant in my character and TBH, looking back a lot of what I thought was real, I was just making it real.

 

So yes, it all happens inn the brain and I seriously doubt there is anything out there like an alternate dimension or anything "spiritual". The brain can be tricked by chemical or external stimuli and stuff like love is a word we use to describe the release of endorphins which overrides logic and the need to reproduce. Many things trigger emotions and what I have found that we really cannot switch these off.

 

For me, the concept of exploring the part of my brain that is responsible for illusions and dreams serves no purpose, I am too analytical.

[Antlerman]

I'll repeat in case anyone wishes to address these points:

 

I'll say it again, the whole issue is in defining God. To say this is only in the brain and therefore negates God, is to accept an anthropomorphic mythic view of God as the defining truth of the matter. To me the question of God isn't a question at all. It's not external to us, and so therefore what we experience in the body, through our bodies, through our brains, through our minds, is to open us more and more that what and who we are. We are born of this Universe, and we truly awaken to who we are. If we call that an illusion of the brain, then we must, again we must equally recognize everything we call reality is a product of the brain as well. And yet that doesn't stop us from not seeing that an as illusion?

 

To add to this, the whole problem with the Christian is not what they may have experienced, induced in the brain is irrelevant, but that it is imagined as a journey to a mythical land "out there". It never becomes internalized, recognized as themselves and embraced as such. It is not that the experiences are invalid, but how the mind either internalizes them or sees them as magical mythical journeys of some other realm is a matter of development. A child images the world outside them as controlled by supernatural forces, often represented in the figures "mom" and "dad". When they mature they see themselves as a participant in cooperation with the world. All that changes wasn't the experience of being in the world, but the development of their minds.

 

To understand the nature of these sorts of mystical experiences, brought on however; dance, drumming, meditation, visualization, trauma, stress, crises, etc, one shouldn't look to it being 'only the brain', but what it exposes the mind to. It is altered states of consciousness, and through those in fact a great deal of positive effects can occur that in no other way would through simply trying to reason your way to that understanding, that perspective. It is through experience we are changed as humans, no matter what that is. And that is what it is at the bottom line, an experience of profound magnitude. Life altering in many cases, changing someone towards a more aware, healthier, happier, and compassionate person.

 

Such experience allows us to shift our gaze to something beyond only what we imagine is reality 'in our brains'. It opens the mind to something more than what we merely construct in logic language centers of the mind as reality. And once that is seen, the illusion then is the former. We are in fact, more than just that, much more than what we imagine in our brains. That experience exposes that truth to us. It isn't "out there", it is the truth of who we are in here, in the world.

[Guest end3]

I'll repeat in case anyone wishes to address these points:

 

I'll say it again, the whole issue is in defining God. To say this is only in the brain and therefore negates God, is to accept an anthropomorphic mythic view of God as the defining truth of the matter. To me the question of God isn't a question at all. It's not external to us, and so therefore what we experience in the body, through our bodies, through our brains, through our minds, is to open us more and more that what and who we are. We are born of this Universe, and we truly awaken to who we are. If we call that an illusion of the brain, then we must, again we must equally recognize everything we call reality is a product of the brain as well. And yet that doesn't stop us from not seeing that an as illusion?

 

To add to this, the whole problem with the Christian is not what they may have experienced, induced in the brain is irrelevant, but that it is imagined as a journey to a mythical land "out there". It never becomes internalized, recognized as themselves and embraced as such. It is not that the experiences are invalid, but how the mind either internalizes them or sees them as magical mythical journeys of some other realm is a matter of development. A child images the world outside them as controlled by supernatural forces, often represented in the figures "mom" and "dad". When they mature they see themselves as a participant in cooperation with the world. All that changes wasn't the experience of being in the world, but the development of their minds.

 

To understand the nature of these sorts of mystical experiences, brought on however; dance, drumming, meditation, visualization, trauma, stress, crises, etc, one shouldn't look to it being 'only the brain', but what it exposes the mind to. It is altered states of consciousness, and through those in fact a great deal of positive effects can occur that in no other way would through simply trying to reason your way to that understanding, that perspective. It is through experience we are changed as humans, no matter what that is. And that is what it is at the bottom line, an experience of profound magnitude. Life altering in many cases, changing someone towards a more aware, healthier, happier, and compassionate person.

 

Such experience allows us to shift our gaze to something beyond only what we imagine is reality 'in our brains'. It opens the mind to something more than what we merely construct in logic language centers of the mind as reality. And once that is seen, the illusion then is the former. We are in fact, more than just that, much more than what we imagine in our brains. That experience exposes that truth to us. It isn't "out there", it is the truth of who we are in here, in the world.

 

Please give me time, my thoughts are unclear today.

[Denyoz]

Such experience allows us to shift our gaze to something beyond only what we imagine is reality 'in our brains'. It opens the mind to something more than what we merely construct in logic language centers of the mind as reality. And once that is seen, the illusion then is the former. We are in fact, more than just that, much more than what we imagine in our brains. That experience exposes that truth to us. It isn't "out there", it is the truth of who we are in here, in the world.

 

*deep sigh*

 

Antlerman, I find this topic totally fascinating, because it is the story of my life. (Thank you blackpudd)

 

You talk about an "experience" that you seem to think only YOU had. Maybe you're right, I don't know, but when I hear you talk about that experience, it sounds very much like the experience I had. Do you know where this can lead to? It can lead to a total breakdown of the brain's reward system. You are being rewarded for something that is not real, and I'm afraid that if you keep it up, you'll end up like me.

 

Anhedonia is a serious illness, and it exists: the inability to experience pleasure. Whatever pleasure you are getting from doing what you're doing comes from your brain's reward system. It's physical, not spiritual. That system can break down if you abuse of it.

 

If you are convinced that what you are saying is right, I'd like to ask you a favour. Would you have time to read my extimony and tell me where I went wrong? I think I did what you are suggesting we should do, and the end result was that I ended up in a psychiatric hospital. My brain's reward system broke down. Now I'm stuck with a major depressive disorder.

[Guest end3]

I'll repeat in case anyone wishes to address these points:

 

I'll say it again, the whole issue is in defining God. To say this is only in the brain and therefore negates God, is to accept an anthropomorphic mythic view of God as the defining truth of the matter. To me the question of God isn't a question at all. It's not external to us, and so therefore what we experience in the body, through our bodies, through our brains, through our minds, is to open us more and more that what and who we are. We are born of this Universe, and we truly awaken to who we are. If we call that an illusion of the brain, then we must, again we must equally recognize everything we call reality is a product of the brain as well. And yet that doesn't stop us from not seeing that an as illusion?

 

To add to this, the whole problem with the Christian is not what they may have experienced, induced in the brain is irrelevant, but that it is imagined as a journey to a mythical land "out there". It never becomes internalized, recognized as themselves and embraced as such. It is not that the experiences are invalid, but how the mind either internalizes them or sees them as magical mythical journeys of some other realm is a matter of development. A child images the world outside them as controlled by supernatural forces, often represented in the figures "mom" and "dad". When they mature they see themselves as a participant in cooperation with the world. All that changes wasn't the experience of being in the world, but the development of their minds.

 

To understand the nature of these sorts of mystical experiences, brought on however; dance, drumming, meditation, visualization, trauma, stress, crises, etc, one shouldn't look to it being 'only the brain', but what it exposes the mind to. It is altered states of consciousness, and through those in fact a great deal of positive effects can occur that in no other way would through simply trying to reason your way to that understanding, that perspective. It is through experience we are changed as humans, no matter what that is. And that is what it is at the bottom line, an experience of profound magnitude. Life altering in many cases, changing someone towards a more aware, healthier, happier, and compassionate person.

 

Such experience allows us to shift our gaze to something beyond only what we imagine is reality 'in our brains'. It opens the mind to something more than what we merely construct in logic language centers of the mind as reality. And once that is seen, the illusion then is the former. We are in fact, more than just that, much more than what we imagine in our brains. That experience exposes that truth to us. It isn't "out there", it is the truth of who we are in here, in the world.

 

I guess you have to ask yourself what it means to internalize. If we take the research as truth, then it seems we can practice those things that bring us in contact with spiritual, yet are still religious without the knowledge of internalization. What is it that turns it around from outside to inside.

[Antlerman]

Such experience allows us to shift our gaze to something beyond only what we imagine is reality 'in our brains'. It opens the mind to something more than what we merely construct in logic language centers of the mind as reality. And once that is seen, the illusion then is the former. We are in fact, more than just that, much more than what we imagine in our brains. That experience exposes that truth to us. It isn't "out there", it is the truth of who we are in here, in the world.

 

*deep sigh*

 

Antlerman, I find this topic totally fascinating, because it is the story of my life. (Thank you blackpudd)

 

You talk about an "experience" that you seem to think only YOU had.

I'm not sure where you got the impression I believe my experiences are unique. I do not believe that at all. In fact, I believe they are very common.

 

Maybe you're right, I don't know, but when I hear you talk about that experience, it sounds very much like the experience I had. Do you know where this can lead to? It can lead to a total breakdown of the brain's reward system. You are being rewarded for something that is not real, and I'm afraid that if you keep it up, you'll end up like me.

I have said to Blackpudding and many others that this is not for everyone. You have to, I'll repeat HAVE TO have a relatively stable psyche to enter into those spaces of the mind. Otherwise, the result can be exactly what you described for yourself. I have a sister with BPD, and there is no way in hell I would ever recommend she practice meditation (at least not without a qualified guide there with her, going ever so slightly inward). Her wiring would misread that and the results could be disastrous. People who are depressed should not go there either for similar reasons. Same thing with bipolar, etc.

 

You project upon me your own experiences. I experience that not just once 30 years ago, but every single time I meditate, which is on a daily basis. I keep myself grounded, always grounding it here in the moment, in the present moment. If I ever feel myself become lost in there, I am aware enough to keep it here. I don't have psychological or psychiatric disorders, other than a certain degree of anxiety which vanished after meditating now.

 

Whatever pleasure you are getting from doing what you're doing comes from your brain's reward system. It's physical, not spiritual.

Whatever you wish to call it, it is nonethless of a different order than physcial stimuli. The reward is actually psychological, as well as physiological, as well as philosophical, and well as sociological, as well as intellectual, as well as every aspect of being itself. Hence, since it includes and transcends all of them, I call it "spiritual". It is not bound or defined by any one of them.

 

That system can break down if you abuse of it.

Absolutely. You have to bring it down into the now, in the moment, in the body and the mind. It is in a word: Insight. Through that insight comes a transformation of the whole person. But again, this is NOT for anyone who has instability to the nature of what you're speaking of. They should NOT expose themselves to something like this.

 

If you are convinced that what you are saying is right, I'd like to ask you a favour. Would you have time to read my extimony and tell me where I went wrong? I think I did what you are suggesting we should do, and the end result was that I ended up in a psychiatric hospital. My brain's reward system broke down. Now I'm stuck with a major depressive disorder.

I'm convinced I'm right for myself for where I am, not for you. You do what is right for you. I'm sorry you've had such a traumatic experience. Same for Blackpudding. This underscores my problem with Christianity. They dabble into areas as some magic from above, tapping into some external miracle giver who magically heals and fixes everything. That just ain't so. It is a process of healing all areas of our lives, into which we can take it to the next level.

[Antlerman]

I guess you have to ask yourself what it means to internalize.

You recognize that what you experience as transcendent, relating to it as "outside you", is in fact from within you. And that what you experience as "God" is YOU! That's not to dismiss it! It is to experience who we are! At that point, the 'veil' is gone and you see that which was seen as without, is within, and what is within is everywhere. The seat of your self-identity expands beyond that mere nest of thoughts swirling about inside your head. Your entire being becomes aware of itself.

 

If we take the research as truth, then it seems we can practice those things that bring us in contact with spiritual, yet are still religious without the knowledge of internalization. What is it that turns it around from outside to inside.

Direct experience.

[Denyoz]

Hey Antlerman, thanks for your reply.

 

You ask where I got the impression that you believed your experiences were unique. Maybe it's the tone of your writing voice. Maybe it's a comment like this one:

 

You project upon me your own experiences. I experience that not just once 30 years ago, but every single time I meditate, which is on a daily basis.

 

I'm not as eloquent as you are in describing my experiences, but I read your posts carefully, and yup, I experienced the same thing. Every day for 15 years. It is something beautiful. You explain it so well.

 

I'm always glad when I find I have something in common with someone. To be conscious of this connection in a world that seems so disconnected is something I regard highly. I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't want to minimize the quality and uniqueness of your experience. I sure hope your psyche is stronger than mine was, and that your brain's reward system will continue serving you until the end.

[midniterider]

But to not believe myth as fact does not mean "God" or spiritual experience is not real. What we think about them is of course just a conceptual matter.

So is the itching felt in a phantom limb an indication that the limb is still there, though invisible, or that the brain is creating a perceived scenario that is clearly not real?

What do you imagine it is that is experienced? Again, with your analogy, you fall prey to the Christian myth of an external God. You imagine it as an external object. Love is a much better analogy than an arm. When you experience love do you see it a trick of the brain like a phantom arm?

And I believe you realize gods are not to be found anywhere, yet you still insist that they must exist. Therefore, the gods exist in brain chemicals and impulses.

 

Love seems a better analogy to you only because it shifts the argument from spontaneous or induced (anomalous) brain functions/experiences to something else - emotions brought about by the perception of external reality and/or past conditioning. I think if one assigns profound and mystical meaning to some brain activities, then one must demonstrate that the phantom limb is somehow exempt from the interpretations one might give to other anomalies. When a stopped heart doesn't deliver oxygen to a living (not dead) brain and an NDE gets interpreted (incorrectly, as no one has died) as a glimpse of the 'other side' with Jesus, dead relatives, etc. that is supposed to prove the existence of another reality. The 'spiritual experience' is real, but the phantom limb is just a faulty interpretation of brain signals. You can't have it both ways. A brain fart that feels mystical/spiritual is still a brain fart just like the phantom limb or other hallucination.

 

Consensus reality is an extended brain fart. :-)

[Guest end3]

But what the research says makes sense where I understand.. i.e. if I practice these things, selflessnes/spirituality come to me. We see this in church.... people sing, they pray, they concentrate on other things....all of which make sense in light of this research. Again, meditation, experiencing nature, etc. And even we can possibly make out a case for that input which creates a dichotomy....either input for or input against.....either input for life or input for death. And that it could actually be a function of our creation is kinda cool.

 

So that leaves me with what do we retain, i.e. memories or whatever, or event the Bible's explanation of accepting faith in that which produces life, believing in such and acting accordingly.....but it seems unless I place myself in those environments that produce life, or that input, then I have a really hard time expressing that living side of me that I have retained previously through positive input.....or stored memories.

 

Granted this is nothing new, but just a different way to express the same. But, I am not thinking clearly today, so maybe it will come to me at some time.

[Antlerman]

But what the research says makes sense where I understand.. i.e. if I practice these things, selflessnes/spirituality come to me. We see this in church.... people sing, they pray, they concentrate on other things....all of which make sense in light of this research. Again, meditation, experiencing nature, etc.

There is a reason these forms exist End. They exist in all religions. They are about in some manner stepping outside yourself, creating a space for inner reflection, etc. The more ritual, the better. They are about distracting the mind. They follow an order in group practice. This doesn't mean Christianity is a miracle religion because they have these things. It means people created the religion and this is what people have learned through the ages. Create the space, raise the energy, do the work, ground the experience. Just like that.

 

And even we can possibly make out a case for that input which creates a dichotomy....either input for or input against.....either input for life or input for death.

I think my special ability to interpret you must be out of the office today. You lost me....

 

So that leaves me with what do we retain, i.e. memories or whatever, or event the Bible's explanation of accepting faith in that which produces life, believing in such and acting accordingly.....but it seems unless I place myself in those environments that produce life, or that input, then I have a really hard time expressing that living side of me that I have retained previously through positive input.....or stored memories.

As I just said, "create the space". You create your own space. It doesn't have to be in a group. The problem with the group in most churches, especially your evangelical flare, is that there is little inner work, and pretty much crap for grounding. In fact, where I go was thwarted in that system. You should try some solo work for awhile and see just how much you do gain in that environment, or what you lose.

 

 

[midniterider]

Depends on what you mean by proof. Are you going say, that a pentecostal's religious experience prove christianity. Or are you going to say it just proves the brain does alot of magical stuff.

Of course I would never argue anyone's religious experience proves their religion. To say one experienced a vision of the Christ in a mystical experience in no way validates historical research into the claims of a religious book that Jesus rose from the grave. What is valid to say however is that people experience religious phenomena the world over for a variety of reasons, and that religious symbols like the Christ often play a part in what is experienced. It has nothing to do with literal beings in some astral plane. I don't care for trying to dismiss it as some spurious fluff or a brain blip. I believe such experiences have an actual function they serve, just the way we experience an entire world of mental realities in our brains and never question their validity. The argument should be about the content of the phenomena itself.

 

Somebody might say that a religious or paranormal experience is just an hallucination in my brain. Since everything I experience occurs in my brain, who is to say that it isn't ALL just hallucination. All those great experiments, results and theories by scientists, just hallucinations. Ok, that might be a bit too much. Maybe hallucinations only occur 1% of the time. But which 1%? Maybe only when I log onto Ex-c. Maybe the internet is only an hallucination. :-) Just because we experience it doesnt make it real. Or does it? The brain can play tricks on us. :-) lol.

[Guest end3]

So what I am getting without knowing much about the brain.....we can have spirituality via direct stimuli and spirituality via memories. I am unclear how the brain handles memories.

I was really with what you were saying up to this point. What do you mean you can experience spirituality via memories? You mean by imagining something you produce feelings of spirituality? To me spirituality is very immediate and not dependent on a thought or an idea of a memory. It is simply being and being aware of more than just our puny world we create and live in within our heads (talk about it all being in the brain!).

 

I'll say it again, the whole issue is in defining God. To say this is only in the brain and therefore negates God, is to accept an anthropomorphic mythic view of God as the defining truth of the matter. To me the question of God isn't a question at all. It's not external to us, and so therefore what we experience in the body, through our bodies, through our brains, through our minds, is to open us more and more that what and who we are. We are born of this Universe, and we truly awaken to who we are. If we call that an illusion of the brain, then we must, again we must equally recognize everything we call reality is a product of the brain as well. And yet that doesn't stop us from not seeing that an as illusion?

 

Ok, I am a litte clearer-minded today. When you say open us more to who we are, this gives me a mental picture that we are developing/opening like a plant......and I think it fits. So correct me if I am misunderstanding, but even though we are creations of this world....implanted with the same "stuff" as the universe, then the things that open us to life, all the aforementioned, are external to us until at such time we receive them/accept them and make them interal. I don't know how other to interpret this because we can have external things that produce spirituality for a long time in our lives before we understand they are there for a purpose. I can't help but think there are those things that cause not natural death, but intentional "death" as well.

 

I agree on the bolded.....it's just I hadn't made the connection until this research came to light.

 

I do want to say though that this matches Christianity for me K......in that we have "external spiritual" until we take it in to help unfold us ....internal, aka, a belief in Christ. That's just me.

 

Good stuff sir, thank you.

[Guest end3]

Let me add this K. What do you tell your brothers here about this revelation....the accepting "all" reality. It makes many look like fundamentalists.....you see my point.

[Antlerman]

We are born of this Universe, and we truly awaken to who we are. If we call that an illusion of the brain, then we must, again we must equally recognize everything we call reality is a product of the brain as well. And yet that doesn't stop us from not seeing that an as illusion?

 

Ok, I am a litte clearer-minded today. When you say open us more to who we are, this gives me a mental picture that we are developing/opening like a plant......and I think it fits. So correct me if I am misunderstanding, but even though we are creations of this world....implanted with the same "stuff" as the universe, then the things that open us to life, all the aforementioned, are external to us until at such time we receive them/accept them and make them interal. I don't know how other to interpret this because we can have external things that produce spirituality for a long time in our lives before we understand they are there for a purpose. I can't help but think there are those things that cause not natural death, but intentional "death" as well.

Well, groovy. We're communicating.

 

Here's the deal as I see it, and you may see why it is hard to communicate this external/internal business. Yes, I agree with you it is sensed as external to us, and we may relate to it as external to us for this reason. Because we are not fully awakened to it. We create a sense of a separate self through all the mental constructs. We create and live in a dualistic reality of subject and object, me and not me. So when it comes to something we intuit in the universe, it is sensed as "out there", as well as felt "in here". We feel moved by the observation, or taken by the moment, the awe, the wonder, or simply a moment where we feel connected in 'inexplicable' ways.

 

So when it comes to religious symbolism... now bear with me End. Enter here the Archetypes. These are symbolic forms of a higher, intuited realization of the Self bound to the Universe, beyond the small self, here in our heads. These figures are representative of that intuited sense of Self. The Christ, is you. The Buddha is you. Not your small self you, but a symbolic representation of our minds to ourselves of that higher Realization. We may relate to them, if it is what works for us as that process of moving that small self to that Self through identification with them. We 'talk to our self' so to speak through these. In identification with them, we become them, they become us, and we become our Self. Chew on that for awhile.

 

Now comes myth. Mythologies are a certain prerational construct of such intuited higher Archetypes. They are not the same as the Archetypes, but a reflection of them. In any religion you have both myth figures, and Archetypes. The myth figures are typical anthropomorphic projections of a given culture at its present stage of development. Jehovah in the Old Testament is a great example of this; jealous, petty, warlord like, vengeful, etc. Now in parts of New Testament (note I said parts), the Christ is such an archetype. A mediator between God and Man. The main problem I have with Christianity is that they deny you that Realization of that Divine Human in yourself. You can be the Christ, and beyond. You can say "I and my Father are One". Again, these are figures for that Realization. Once that is realized, then your Jesus is a brother, not a Lord, so to speak.

 

Again, these are all vehicles for that unfolding in ourselves to awaken to what was already there the entire time. These a symbols for our mind to that inner awakening, and then what was without is within, and what was within is the All Itself. Evolution is an awakening to mind, and unfolding to the Divine as that Mind. Buddha mind, Christ consciousness, etc. They are all vehicles for the mind to transcend the separate self.

[Guest end3]

So when it comes to religious symbolism... now bear with me End. Enter here the Archetypes. These are symbolic forms of a higher, intuited realization of the Self bound to the Universe, beyond the small self, here in our heads. These figures are representative of that intuited sense of Self. The Christ, is you. The Buddha is you. Not your small self you, but a symbolic representation of our minds to ourselves of that higher Realization. We may relate to them, if it is what works for us as that process of moving that small self to that Self through identification with them. We 'talk to our self' so to speak through these. In identification with them, we become them, they become us, and we become our Self. Chew on that for awhile.

I have had times where I have had periods, brief though they were.....where the small-self view was "bigger" for a time, but only when really submerged into "lifegiving" input. Moving into this perspective will be very challenging for me especially.

 

Now comes myth. Mythologies are a certain prerational construct of such intuited higher Archetypes. They are not the same as the Archetypes, but a reflection of them. In any religion you have both myth figures, and Archetypes. The myth figures are typical anthropomorphic projections of a given culture at its present stage of development. Jehovah in the Old Testament is a great example of this; jealous, petty, warlord like, vengeful, etc. Now in parts of New Testament (note I said parts), the Christ is such an archetype. A mediator between God and Man. The main problem I have with Christianity is that they deny you that Realization of that Divine Human in yourself. You can be the Christ, and beyond. You can say "I and my Father are One". Again, these are figures for that Realization. Once that is realized, then your Jesus is a brother, not a Lord, so to speak.

 

I see your point....now..lol, but I have some things that hender me from accepting this. Cause being one, and again, I think one has to accept or subscribe to those life-giving attributes of our reality in order that we grow/produce fruit and ultimately grow Self......because I am tied not to a Self that I value the "evil" side as well as the good side, but that I am tied to a Morality.....if this makes sense. <please use your special END3 interpret skills here>

 

 

 

Again, these are all vehicles for that unfolding in ourselves to awaken to what was already there the entire time. These a symbols for our mind to that inner awakening, and then what was without is within, and what was within is the All Itself. Evolution is an awakening to mind, and unfolding to the Divine as that Mind. Buddha mind, Christ consciousness, etc. They are all vehicles for the mind to transcend the separate self.

 

A wonderful revelation for me today.