Ah, Looks Like It Was All In Our Heads After All :)

[blackpudd1n]

That's wonderful. One thing I wanted to share that Margee had first posted somewhere else, is this video I found very helpful in understanding the nature of spiritual experience and the brain. In no way does it diminish the quality of the experience. It's not about proving or disproving anything that we may believe about the experiences, but it does undeniably validate the experiences themselves are real, and common.

 

When I hear someone say, "once I learned the brain does this, then I realized it wasn't real," is an invalid conclusion, IMHO. I see it as invalid of a conclusion because the experience itself actually, really, happens, and its effects are profound and life-changing, for the positive. The only thing it invalidates is a mythological understanding of it as something supernatural. It doesn't mean the experience isn't real. There is a big difference between our beliefs being errant, and our experiences not being valid. The former does not negate the latter.

 

...From the perspective of someone who lives with a mental illness, I don't think what you have said here is very helpful, A-Man. Not to anyone trying to find their way out of a condition that distorts reality for them.

I don't see it that way. Again, what I said was what we think about the experience, how we interpret it, what we believe about it, is subject to better or worse understandings. So when you say what you experience leads you to a distortion of reality, then I would say if such experiences causes your mind to do that, then you shouldn't do that. I've never said otherwise. For others, it expands a perception of reality that allows their otherwise stable minds to process it beneficially. The point remains, the experience is real, but how it is translated to the conscious mind is a different matter. What does it mean?, is a different question than what was that?.

 

What I hear in someone's statement 'it wasn't real', is how they understood it was in error. I don't dispute that at all. Again, the experience is real, the understanding is simply the understanding, and that can be good or bad, depending.

 

The fact is that there are many experiences that are all in your head, and are completely invalidated by that realisation. Not only that, but those experiences are harmful unless the person is able to invalidate them through realising that they were all in their head.

Invalid? No. My experiences, from Oneness to typing on this computer are all processed and interpreted through parts of my brain. Those are all valid expeirences. How I understand them may in fact be more or less valid. I do not believe that what I'm looking at on the screen as a type are actually candy gumdrops splattering as I type, and that would be a valid conclusion. If I believed they were, and that I'm actually Willy Wonka, that is invalid. Same experience, different understandings of reality. One is closer to reality than the other.

 

In all honesty though, if you wish to talk about those letters appearing on the screen before me, what I assume them to be with the mind, what I call "reality" is actually an illusion. They are in reality entirely "all in my head". Factually, they do not exist. I create the meaning of them using the symbolic centers of my mind. There is no such thing as a T outside of "just in my head". That is a fact. Yet, we call it reality, and that's fine. It's stable enough to walk upon, even though it's entirely an illusion. We figuratively walk on water every day.

 

And I can also tell you, personally, that not all spiritual experiences are positive. Profound and life-changing, yes- for the negative.

Again, if you have a mental illness, than I agree. I've always said this. So is running when you have a sprained ankle. Not an appropriate activity if you have a disability.

 

I think this discussion really beongs in the spirituality forum; would you mind moving it over, please?

Actually, I can, however I do think it is entirely appropriate here in the Science vs. Religion forum, for the very reason that we are looking at the scientific understanding of spiritual experience. This very much looks at that relationship, and in quite an important, and I believe helpful way. Religion, or spirituality is not just "woo-woo". It has direct evidential support through brain studies. That this somehow means spirituality is 'invalid' is of course a matter of discussion, which is important and good to have. This isn't just a discussion of spirituality, but the relationship between Science and Spirituality.

 

I can move this later if you still feel this isn't a valid discussion to be had in the Science vs. Religion forum. I do believe it is however.

 

First of all, I don't always get a choice in where my mind goes and what experiences I have. That's why it's called a mental illness. I wish it was a matter of what I should or shouldn't do; but it's not. I don't seek out synchronicity and spiritual experiences; they just happen. Nor do I get a say in whether they are nice or not. That's what it means to have a mental illness. Not always having control over what your own mind decides to make you think, feel, experience, and believe.

 

The reason I'm getting annoyed is because I've told you before that not all experiences are good, but it's like you're not listening. I get that you probably have not experienced psychosis and the like. I have, so it really gets up my goat when you tell me I "shouldn't" go there, like I had some say in the horrible experiences. For a long time I didn't, until the medication was sorted out and I made a sustained effort to remain firmly grounded in reality.

 

And what bothers me the most about your response above and the reason that I asked this discussion to be moved is that it's starting to do my head in. I don't need this spiritual stuff. The full moon is 48 hours away, and has already been affecting me for two days. I initially posted the video because it gave me a great deal of relief and comfort, and I thought it would do for others, too, but now this thread has turned into something that aggravates me.

 

I'm all for discussion, but lets be honest with ourselves here- this thread has turned into a spirituality discussion. I don't want to just close it, out of respect to all those who want to continue the discussion. That's why I would appreciate it if it could be split and moved.

 

Also, regarding that video you put up about the "god helmet"- I'm not sure if you ever got around to watching the initial video I posted, but it was in there, along with another testing procedure into spirituality.

[Rev R]

Second the motion to split and move the topic (perhaps the Coliseum as an alternative) if it puts puddin's mind at ease.

[Denyoz]

...From the perspective of someone who lives with a mental illness, I don't think what you have said here is very helpful, A-Man. Not to anyone trying to find their way out of a condition that distorts reality for them.

 

The fact is that there are many experiences that are all in your head, and are completely invalidated by that realisation. Not only that, but those experiences are harmful unless the person is able to invalidate them through realising that they were all in their head.

 

And I can also tell you, personally, that not all spiritual experiences are positive. Profound and life-changing, yes- for the negative.

 

I agree with blackpudd, and I said this in a previous post. I don't think discussing this is helpful to anyone. Ironically, I think it has been helpful to me, I'm not even sure yet. I know I feel better, but then what? I was going to suggest to Antlerman that we move this discussion somewhere else, or continue it via private message.

[Denyoz]

... Is it just that if you feel you benefit from the experience it must be a genuine spiritual thing rather than imagination or other brain process? There must be a definitive reason that God telling you to kill is just the brain making up stuff, but God telling you that you are an eternal soul is a valid truth.

 

Good question.

 

You still need some kind of moral standard in order to interprete the experience. It's like when you watch a movie or read a book. A good movie can make you change the way you think. But do movies tell you what to do? No. Same with weird experiences you have in your head. They don't tell you what to do. They inspire you, either toward good or toward evil. You can dismiss them altogether, like blackpudd suggests. There are still OTHER things in life that will inspire you.

[Antlerman]

Splitting the topic is a pain in the ass, and besides, there are two halves of the same discussion. Is spiritual experience in the brain? Yes, and an entire discussion of the what that means in practical understanding of this very human experience in light of that. I'm not prone to putting it in the spirituality section as it is discussing more than just spiritual experience. It ties directly into a discussion of the brain and neuroscience. Which is why the Science vs. Religion forum is perfect for it. As an alternative I can move it to the Colosseum as it does allow for a more open discussion of those that would see it as invalid and those who see it as valid.

 

The one thing I will say though as a moderator, is that if someone starts a discussion topic with a positive statement that 'it's all just in the brain', they should be open to different takes on it being discussed in that topic. Otherwise, it's not really a discussion topic, but just stating an opinion. I don't believe anyone here is denying it's in the brain, it's simply a matter of understanding the meaning of that which this is about. There no disagreement on that main point.

[Denyoz]

I think it's all about being happy. If Antlerman was to talk with my psychiatrist and say all these experiences makes him suffer, the doctor would say that he has a mental illness. If the experiences make him happy, the doctor would say: "Go home, there's nothing wrong with you."

[Antlerman]

Topic moved to Colosseum.

[Rev R]

The one thing I will say though as a moderator, is that if someone starts a discussion topic with a positive statement that 'it's all just in the brain', they should be open to different takes on it being discussed in that topic. Otherwise, it's not really a discussion topic, but just stating an opinion. I don't believe anyone here is denying it's in the brain, it's simply a matter of understanding the meaning of that which this is about. There no disagreement on that main point.

 

The ONLY reason I said anything on this topic is the direction you are going is taking a toll on puddin'.

[Antlerman]

The one thing I will say though as a moderator, is that if someone starts a discussion topic with a positive statement that 'it's all just in the brain', they should be open to different takes on it being discussed in that topic. Otherwise, it's not really a discussion topic, but just stating an opinion. I don't believe anyone here is denying it's in the brain, it's simply a matter of understanding the meaning of that which this is about. There no disagreement on that main point.

 

The ONLY reason I said anything on this topic is the direction you are going is taking a toll on puddin'.

No, I got that and respect you saying so. I agree and have moved it for her peace of mind. You over posted me above, and when I read yours and everyone else' feelings after that post, I myself agreed. Although, again, it is pertinent to the topic.

[Rev R]

OK. Making sure we are on the same page.

[Antlerman]

Again, really trying to understand...

And that's the best any of us can do. Appreciated....

 

Again, what I said was what we think about the experience, how we interpret it, what we believe about it, is subject to better or worse understandings.

I see a distinction between experiences. We experience (and interpret) things in the external environment (music, art, car crash, food, sex) but we also internally generate experience (dreams, hallucinations, psychotic episodes, spiritual awakenings). How does one filter and tag the experiences generated solely by mind manipulation (altered states achieved by ritual, chanting, drugs, magnetic/electrical stimulation, disease)?

The first thing to understand is that you already experience entire realities as 'reality' which are in fact entirely generated in the mind, and you can call it manipulation too if you wish. You experience relationships. You experience thoughts. You experience culture. You experience values. You experience symbolic realities, such as your very 'self' or 'person-hood'. Those are entirely mental experiences with no counterpart in the physical environment. A tree is a mental symbol of a physical object, but then how do you represent a value? Symbolically, of course. "Good", is a mental symbol.

 

Now are these mental realities created through manipulation of the mind? You bet your sweet ass they are! Marketing and Advertizing manipulate the way the mind works all the time. We are indoctrinated with mental constructs of truth and reality from the day our mind emerges from the physical body the brain lives in. We construct the experience of reality on the level of the mind through symbolic representations of mental experiences. We experience it directly, even though they are all 'in the head'.

 

So then how do you filter these said experiences? Checks and balances? Functionality? Benefits? Appropriateness to the situation/need? These are all far less clean and easy as simply looking at the material world and saying proudly "Fact!". These are far move fluid and dynamic systems which require a far more sophisticated means to navigate that mental sphere, the mind-reality. Yet, you learn to navigate these through experience. Right? Same thing as with the body, except more complex and non-material in nature? It's the same thing when navigating the even less 'concrete' reality of these other spheres of realities the mind tries to process. You learn to integrate them. Just as there is healthy and unhealthy responses to our internal mental experiences, there is healthy and unhealthy responses to our 'spiritual' experiences.

 

It seems you're saying that if an internally generated experience feels spiritual, it's the real thing.

What do you mean by "the real thing"? I think that is a vitally important question for you to define to others and yourself in your understanding. "The real thing" to me sounds like it is suggesting it as some proof of gods and goddesses really existing "out there". In no way does it mean that to me. By real thing, I would mean it is some real, and valuable experience of reality that is categorically different that physical, and mental realities - even though all of them are interrelated. It is really experienced differently than those, and those in themselves are not that. So is it "the real thing"? Sure. In that sense. But what does it indicate, seems to me the true question you should ask.

 

Obviously, if God tells you to murder your family, it is a psychotic episode. But how about less obvious instances? Is it just that if you feel you benefit from the experience it must be a genuine spiritual thing rather than imagination or other brain process?

Healthy Integration. That's the key. If it provides a value not found any other way, not by reasoning or thinking about something using the mental processes, then it's good for that person. I don't consider it 'just the imagination', because that suggests it is on the level of the cognitive. CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy), is all about 'telling yourself something' to change how you feel and think (as valid as that is to do). What I am talking about, and why I make the distinction is because it is not a thought-emotional response sort of thing. In fact, it is the pronounced absence of thought that is at the heart of this sort of "opening" of ourselves. It is non-verbal. It is not therefore "imagination".

 

There must be a definitive reason that God telling you to kill is just the brain making up stuff, but God telling you that you are an eternal soul is a valid truth.

In the former, that is a key reason why I say someone with mental illness should not practice mediation. You are in fact opening up that part of the mind without filters to the conscious mind, and if the pathways between the two don't have a stable road, they could in fact get such broken and dysfunctional messages. And to Puddin's point that she can't help that just happening, I respect that. Medication should help to stabilize that sort of miscommunication. I would say that is a dysfunction of the brain. It's not that that part of our brain is inherently bad or dysfunctional, but when not processed or integrated correctly it isn't good.

 

The other thing about the spiritual in otherwise functional minds is HOW they understand it cognitively. That's where things like mythological frameworks come in: "God out there", for instance. Magical constructions. Archetypal models, etc. These are only mental models of a transmental experience. Just because those models maybe be poor in a scientific sense, does not invalidate the actual experience. What I may experience as infinite Light and Mind, another may experience as a deity in the heavens. It's all how we call it, not what it is.

[florduh]

What do you mean by "the real thing"?

I don't mean external beings either. I mean an experience that has valid ramifications regarding the spiritual. I mean the very existence of a spiritual nature. IOW, is the internal experience something spiritual or is it just another one of the anomalies the brain spits out occasionally? I can't see why two people can't assign different labels to the same experience. Example: NDE. It's a meaningful, spiritual experience for some, and may include seeing God, Jesus, Krishna, Heaven, Hell, dead relatives or angels. For others, it is an experience caused by hypoxia, and they would no more call it a spiritual event than they would a vivid dream or drug induced hallucination.

 

Is "spiritual" in the mind of the beholder?

[Antlerman]

What do you mean by "the real thing"?

I don't mean external beings either. I mean an experience that has valid ramifications regarding the spiritual. I mean the very existence of a spiritual nature. IOW, is the internal experience something spiritual or is it just another one of the anomalies the brain spits out occasionally?

Again, tricky words. What do you mean by spiritual? Even though you don't mean external beings, you ask regarding the legitimacy of the existence of a 'spiritual nature'. What do you mean by that? I tend to think you still have this disembodied sort of notion from Christianity of some separate nature to us, and that we merely play connect the dots from internal experience as some anomalous brain blip to some mythological view of reality.

 

I've tried to explain how that it really comes down to a perceptual awareness. These 'blips' actually are just momentary glimpses through that set of eyes, though whatever means causes them. We pull back from them into so-called "reality" for the simple reason we do not know how to navigate the world with that set of eyes. We haven't learned to integrate that into ourselves. Over time, through training, through 'unlearning', those are no longer flashes but a full-on awareness. In the practice of meditation you experience the nature of reality through a different set of eyes that exposes the 'false' nature of reality that we create in our minds through all these mental constructions of culture, language, and ego. What becomes exposed is something 'higher' than that. I say that word because it can now see that reality from outside it, whereas before we were unaware of that being fully embedded within it assuming it is reality.

 

So when someone speaks of us having a spiritual nature, it is a perceptual understanding through direct experience of ourselves with a different set of eyes - a set of eyes that includes a physical awareness, and a rational awareness. As a result of said awareness, the experience of both body and mind are directly impacted through that as we learn to integrate that into our experience of reality (I'm qualifying a stable integration, not some anomalous blip). We are calmer, more aware, more present in body and mind, centered, grounded, peaceful, etc. It has direct, measurable effects that show up in the mental and material realities.

 

Again, the reason I call it spiritual is because it is categorically distinct from mere mental realities which are constructs of symbolic truths we embed our minds in and live life unaware of ourselves outside that. If we are outside that perceptually, then where are we? Clearly we're not disembodied. We are aware of our bodies, and we are aware of our mental 'body' as it were - that self we call 'me'. We are aware of ourselves in the body, and in the mind, but I am those as well as not-those. What is that? Who is observing that? I am aware of myself in body and mind, as well as the fact I am directly part of everything else in the world. The awareness of a separate self breaks down, and we become an integrated Self that is that 'me' in the the body and mind, and 'me' as a manifestation of that Essence of existence itself. We call that our true Nature, or Spirit, since it is not a thing, not an object, not a place, not a time, undefined.

 

Everything in the manifest universe has that nature. It's simply a mater of unfolding into direct awareness of it. In our case, through our minds.

 

I can't see why two people can't assign different labels to the same experience. Example: NDE. It's a meaningful, spiritual experience for some, and may include seeing God, Jesus, Krishna, Heaven, Hell, dead relatives or angels. For others, it is an experience caused by hypoxia, and they would no more call it a spiritual event than they would a vivid dream or drug induced hallucination.

In your examples you compare how some may walk away from a profound experience like an NDE embracing it as meaningful, as contrasted with those who walk away from it calling it a spot of bad cheese and ignoring it, so to speak. If we are careful we are starting with nearly identical experiences, comparing apples to apples, I will certainly acknowledge that people may in fact respond to where it opens them to the universe, and to another they set it aside as some strange anomaly and go on their way back into their 'reality'. That has to do with the individual. The experience is not some magic event that somehow overrides all your programming. There is undoubtedly a long complex and varying list of reasons to account for what people tell themselves afterward, beginning with fear of losing one's mind to insanity and finding some 'rational' explanation for it, all the way to those who believe a god in heaven called them to become a prophet.

 

In any sort of peak experience like this, in that moment we are outside our normal reality constructed in our minds that we walk through the world with, but then as we 'come back' we do what we do with every other experience of life as part of our 'normal' functioning. We try to categorize, label, and integrate it with our rational minds. We do that with everything. And for the most part we have evolved to do just that to with the world as we have it, from the physical to the cultural, technological, informational, social, relational, etc. That sort of experience however is not 'normal'. It is not like meeting Sally at Starbucks for coffee. But we try to relate it to that world we do know. Some will hang it on a literal mythic God from their cultural symbols, others will call it a spot of bad cheese and be on their way into the stable, world of 'normal', the consensus reality they call truth.

 

So, here's the thing. These experiences are not the thing itself. The thing itself is what is in us that such experiences exposes us to. If someone has the individual desire to look further into that, they can. And what they will find, IMO, is that what manifest itself to them as God, or the Christ, or Krishna, or Light, is a symbolic representation of their own Nature which is those. "God beyond God" as Meister Ekhart put it. Brahman. To look into that space is terrifying. It means the end of all we call ourselves here in the 'normal' world. We take off the flesh of self, so to speak and have to find ourselves anew, in that. So yes, people are motivated both to fully enter that Void, or to desperately avoid it.

 

Is "spiritual" in the mind of the beholder?

Of course. There are many ways it is seen and interpreted. But in your examples, it's not a case of understanding the spiritual, as it is try to either pursue or avoid what it exposes in ourselves. My point in the use of the word spritual is to understand it distinctly different than just a cognitive, emotional, 'warm fuzzy'. It's categorically different than the 'normal' in a shared consensus reality. It's not that it isn't normal, as I fully believe it is the most real 'normal' there is. It's very natural, just not the average reality. It's highly functional, when integrated though healthy growth.

[florduh]

I've tried to explain how that it really comes down to a perceptual awareness.

In another current thread, Fatima is being discussed. When people stare at the sun and hallucinate, devout Catholics see the Virgin Mary; that's their perceptual awareness; they are trained to look for and see weird Mary things, so they do. It seems that to be 'spiritual' one has only to decide to be so. Is that pretty much it? I mean, why do you see a spiritual backdrop and I don't? I'm thinking that perhaps if I had a good NDE, I might decide to label things differently. If I had the alien abduction experience I might change my views on that as well (but I would hope not!).

[Denyoz]

Is "spiritual" in the mind of the beholder?

Of course. There are many ways it is seen and interpreted. But in your examples, it's not a case of understanding the spiritual, as it is try to either pursue or avoid what it exposes in ourselves. My point in the use of the word spritual is to understand it distinctly different than just a cognitive, emotional, 'warm fuzzy'. It's categorically different than the 'normal' in a shared consensus reality. It's not that it isn't normal, as I fully believe it is the most real 'normal' there is. It's very natural, just not the average reality. It's highly functional, when integrated though healthy growth.

 

It's highly functional when integrated... yeah.

 

I don't think I was ever able to integrate it. How do you integrate truth into dishonest relationships? How do you integrate integrity when you work for an employer who is screwing his clients? How do you integrate freedom when you live in a society that controls everything you do? How do you integrate trust when you deal with institutions that steal your money?

 

I know I'm an angel, but I'm living in hell. These our my choices:

 

1- I can be a light in the darkness and get laughed at and trampled on

2- I can join a monastery and live peacefully in seclusion with people like me

3- I can spend all my free time on the Internet talking about it

4- I can become an artist and try to convey my message through my works

5- I can do like Mother Teresa

6- I can join a church and try to integrate it into my religion

 

I tried all these things. The world is not getting better, it's getting worse. I feel like it's a losing battle. The only way to be fully integrated in the world is to live the lie.

 

Sorry, the negative is taking over this morning.

[Antlerman]

I've tried to explain how that it really comes down to a perceptual awareness.

In another current thread, Fatima is being discussed. When people stare at the sun and hallucinate, devout Catholics see the Virgin Mary; that's their perceptual awareness;

No, that's a mental phenomenon. If you re-read what I posted you will see clearly in my context what I mean by awareness. Your reality even now as you think about the world is your perceptual awareness of reality. Seeing the virgin, is a symbol the mind produces to represent something within us. It's not literally true. It what is behind or beyond that symbol, if anyone can manage to see past it. At a certain point all symbols dissolve once that perceptual awareness sees what that represents within ourselves.

 

I said all this already.

 

they are trained to look for and see weird Mary things, so they do.

Yes, and no. Yes, in that if someone has an experience like this it is beyond dispute that the symbols of one's culture are manifested by their subconscious minds to their conscious minds. But again, spirituality is not about seeing Jesus or Mary.

 

It seems that to be 'spiritual' one has only to decide to be so.

Actually, no. You already are that. It's simply a matter of unlearning what you assume reality is.

 

Is that pretty much it?

Not close.

 

I mean, why do you see a spiritual backdrop and I don't?

Why do you see the reality you do? I think the difference is I've seen the world that way before myself and I understand what that is. What I'm talking about to you is not understood as something along the lines of seeing Mary by staring at the sun. That's not it. I've explained all this above.

 

I'm thinking that perhaps if I had a good NDE, I might decide to label things differently.

I'm sure you might. But you don't have to go through that. I'd suggest something far simpler, like practicing meditation. Even the simplest movement into that space begins to change how you understand yourself and the world. You can go as little or as far as you wish. Since my path began with that NDE, I got a hell of look into how deep that rabbit hole can really go. For me that NDE was a beginning...

 

If I had the alien abduction experience I might change my views on that as well (but I would hope not!).

Well, of course alien abductions are just mythological. There is more to who and what we are than all our puny assumptions presume.

[florduh]

There is more to who and what we are than all our puny assumptions presume.

Granted, your assumptions aren't as puny as mine. I did have some 'spiritual' experiences on LSD and mescaline. I don't label them as profound insights because I know they were my brain playing tricks on itself. A shaman doing the same thing with LSD or mescaline would see the practice as a path to true spirituality. Chanting, meditating and whirling (as in Dervish) appear to me to be identical examples of cause and effect, that is, the brain is manipulated to produce anomalous experience. I have a hard time as seeing that as meaningful beyond the feelings it causes the experiencer to have.

 

Thanks, AM, for taking time to explain. I guess I'm just a lost cause

[Antlerman]

It's highly functional, when integrated though healthy growth.

 

It's highly functional when integrated... yeah.

I was careful in my word choice. Yes, when it is properly integrated it is healthy and fully functional. I'll explain....

 

I don't think I was ever able to integrate it.

That doesn't mean it's not possible. There's a lot involved in successfully doing that, such as proper supporting infrastructure within our personal communities. I have the benefit of relationships with those who understand this within themselves and we become a support to one another that way. If I was the only person in the world, I could become lost in a sea of 'sameness' in looking for support in those other necessary areas of my life. It's not just a compartmentalized thing, but touches every aspect of my life: individual, cultural, social, material. I'll explain further...

 

How do you integrate truth into dishonest relationships?

You first must be truthful with yourself. If others don't see things the same way that is different than a 'dishonest relationship'. Perceptual awareness is different that insincerity. You have to have sincere relationships, and work from within yourself to the truest you can to bring that into the relationship. It starts with ourselves, but if the other is unable to meet you that way, then part company if necessary in order to be true to your whole self.

 

How do you integrate integrity when you work for an employer who is screwing his clients? How do you integrate freedom when you live in a society that controls everything you do? How do you integrate trust when you deal with institutions that steal your money?

These are complex questions that I don't wish to sound oversimplifying things to say a simple suggestion. First, center yourself. Then from there, as you know yourself though that depth, directions become far clearer coming from that place. It becomes far clearer than 'trying to figure it out' with just reason alone. Yes, use the rational mind, but the heart has to be known as well, and the mind becomes clearer.

 

There are of course many suggestions of actions that can be offered, and there is no single silver bullet, but again trying to simply figure it out with reason is bound to be fraught with stress and difficulty because it is failing to integrate the whole person. And that's part of what is meant by an integral approach. You have to know yourself outside all that first, in every aspect of who you are. But if we don't know that from first looking within, than how can we hope to find it outside ourselves?

 

I know I'm an angel, but I'm living in hell.

I'm very sorry to hear that.

 

These our my choices:

 

1- I can be a light in the darkness and get laughed at and trampled on

2- I can join a monastery and live peacefully in seclusion with people like me

3- I can spend all my free time on the Internet talking about it

4- I can become an artist and try to convey my message through my works

5- I can do like Mother Teresa

6- I can join a church and try to integrate it into my religion

I wouldn't see those as your only choices. I would suggest however building a community of like minded souls for yourself that you can go to for support. To not have that, makes it harder. Find your light, find others with that light, and be yourself in the world. Exercise Wisdom. Be Wisdom. That means use that power wisely through clarity, not just spilling out all over the place in gushing ecstasy. To put it in terms if I can, it is the compassion of that Light, and control and power of that Mind. Both are the same, and you find and develop that in yourself. Knowledge, Wisdom, and Light.

 

I tried all these things. The world is not getting better, it's getting worse. I feel like it's a losing battle. The only way to be fully integrated in the world is to live the lie.

Stop looking outside. The world is impermanent. Who you are in this world is impermanent. Your Nature, your true Self, is not.

 

Sorry, the negative is taking over this morning.

Yeah, sorry to hear this. That's OK though. It's part of the process.

[Denyoz]

Stop looking outside. The world is impermanent. Who you are in this world is impermanent. Your Nature, your true Self, is not.

 

The physical world is part of reality. My physical self is part of who I am. I can stop looking outside temporarily, but not my whole life. The world is impermanent, but I still have to pay taxes. My true Self is not what society tells me it is, but I still have to act as if it was (at least in part) if I wish to survive and not go to jail.

 

When my mother-in-law complains to me about her health problems, and then asks me: "How are you?" I'm pretty sure she wants to know about my health problems, and I do have some, but if I'm true to myself and look inside, I see that I don't have health problems, that everything is fine! So my real answer to her question should be: "I'm perfectly healthy, my life is filled with light, love and harmony, I'm totally happy because I will never die." What do you think this will do to our relationship? She will feel disconnected from me. Do I want to create a connection or a disconnection? Should I play her game of play my own game? At one point you have to decide if you're in or if you're out. Or maybe it's one foot in and one foot out. But when it comes to talking to people, what is it: deep or superficial? I usually avoid talking to people, I find the whole exercise frustrating.

 

Yes, you're right, I probably need a group of supportive friends to meditate with.

 

But then what? If I would become fully integrated, peaceful, loving, happy, patient, wise, radiant, etc., people would still think I am happy because I have a nice house, a nice car, nice clothes, nice kids, a beautiful wife, money, health. They won't know it's because I meditate, because my possessions speak louder than my inner life. I would want my exterior life to reflect my interior life, and get rid of my house, car, clothes, kids, wife, money. (I'll keep the health, thank you). Then what?

 

See, I'm not good at integrating. I can't see where these two worlds meet.

 

Fortunately, there is a third option, thanks to technology: virtual reality (video games, and Internet forums). That's where I go. It solves my problem.

 

Do you think virtual reality is real?

[Antlerman]

Stop looking outside. The world is impermanent. Who you are in this world is impermanent. Your Nature, your true Self, is not.

 

The physical world is part of reality. My physical self is part of who I am. I can stop looking outside temporarily, but not my whole life. The world is impermanent, but I still have to pay taxes. My true Self is not what society tells me it is, but I still have to act as if it was (at least in part) if I wish to survive and not go to jail.

I think you missed the context in which I said this. You said, "I tried all these things. The world is not getting better, it's getting worse. I feel like it's a losing battle. The only way to be fully integrated in the world is to live the lie." That sounds like you are looking to the outside word to give you what you need to look for within. In no way am I suggesting you neglect or minimize or negate the external world, your body, health, relations, job, etc. I'm saying that those things cannot be the source of you finding peace within.

 

When I speak of integral, I mean you HAVE to take care of your physical, economic, and social aspects of your life, in addition your inner spiritual self. But it cannot begin if you are looking for a rescue from outside of you. That's why the whole notion of a savior bothers me. There has to be a balance between between the outside and the inside; physically, psychologically, and spiritually. A sick body affects the mental, which affect the spiritual. And conversely, strong spiritual sense affects the mental, which affects the physical. Everything interpenetrates. Everything has to be balanced and integrated.

 

When my mother-in-law complains to me about her health problems, and then asks me: "How are you?" I'm pretty sure she wants to know about my health problems, and I do have some, but if I'm true to myself and look inside, I see that I don't have health problems, that everything is fine! So my real answer to her question should be: "I'm perfectly healthy, my life is filled with light, love and harmony, I'm totally happy because I will never die." What do you think this will do to our relationship? She will feel disconnected from me.

Why? If that's how you genuinely feel that share that. Why should that make her feel disconnected? People like feeling other people's happiness. I guess I don't get why you say this.

 

Do I want to create a connection or a disconnection? Should I play her game of play my own game?

I don't get this. Why not show empathy? That's your connection right there. You don't have to say, "Yeah, I'm unhappy too," in order to make a connection with someone. Not at all.

 

At one point you have to decide if you're in or if you're out. Or maybe it's one foot in and one foot out. But when it comes to talking to people, what is it: deep or superficial?

The art of it is going deep in simplicity. Show depth. Be simply love. Love is never superficial.

 

I usually avoid talking to people, I find the whole exercise frustrating.

I guess this is where I felt to say find a support structure for yourself. Here isn't a bad place, but individuals face to face is of course far better. Far more is communicated. Don't look to everyone to feed your needs where you are at, but you can certainly show depth to them without words.

 

Yes, you're right, I probably need a group of supportive friends to meditate with.

And learn and a discuss with as well.

 

But then what? If I would become fully integrated, peaceful, loving, happy, patient, wise, radiant, etc., people would still think I am happy because I have a nice house, a nice car, nice clothes, nice kids, a beautiful wife, money, health.

Personally, I don' think so. I think peace and happiness coming from depth shows in very different ways. Happy because you've got money and status is superficial. It's all based on the ego. But if you go beyond the ego, what comes from there is timeless. It's not tied to things. It can give without expectations of return. Its focus is not on the self. Its center is the world. Its center includes them.

 

If you want them to experience this, than give this and let them find it themselves. It's the only way. It comes from within them.

 

(continued...)

[Antlerman]

(continued...)

 

They won't know it's because I meditate, because my possessions speak louder than my inner life.

Are you concerned it has become this for you?

 

I would want my exterior life to reflect my interior life, and get rid of my house, car, clothes, kids, wife, money. (I'll keep the health, thank you). Then what?

There's no reason to get rid of these things, if they are not substitutes for that inner peace. They are not the focus of your life, and I fully know that when I speak with my parents and show compassion and love to them, they know it comes from a place of inner peace which has nothing to do with my having a good job, nice car, house, etc. I had all these things before and there is a marked difference in my peace. It doesn't come from those things.

 

Why do you feel you need to put on a certain suit to be true? It's about inner light, not culture symbols. Use you money where you heart wishes to use it. Do good with it if you have it to do so, not from some external expectation, but from your own heart guided through that wisdom.

 

See, I'm not good at integrating. I can't see where these two worlds meet.

What I hear is this conflict between cultural expectations of what you 'should be', to match some ideal. The first place to begin is centering yourself, finding inner peace and clarity.

 

Fortunately, there is a third option, thanks to technology: virtual reality (video games, and Internet forums). That's where I go. It solves my problem.

 

Do you think virtual reality is real?

Well, I do believe the use of technology for communication does in fact add a huge dimension to our global society and an exchange of information not available prior to now. I believe this puts us on the cusp of a global evolutionary leap forward, with some hope from those like me.

 

There's another video I'm going to share, that again, I feel for you will also be valuable to watch. It touches on many of the things I mentioned in this post. BTW, this video is like lifting the skull cap off my brain and looking right inside it. It's how I think:

 

[Margee]

(continued...)

BTW, this video is like lifting the skull cap off my brain and looking right inside it. It's how I think:

 

 

 

This is a wonderful video Antlerman. Wonderful. I really tried to digest it and I think I did. This all makes sense to me....the whole talk on ' Empathic Earth'..... Absolutly wonderful.

 

The idea of everyone helping each other would mean, no more wars, more more rapes, no more starving children or adults, no more controlling each other with opinions, no more violence, no more predudice, no more stealing, lying, cheating and no more greed. It would all be gone. We will all 'love' each other. Perfect! And everyone would share all the money to make it on earth with absolutly no problems. We'd even have time to play. What a beautiful world!

I mean that.

 

My problem is that I will not live to see this. So I continue in my struggle and 'plight', without the help of my neighbours.... my fellow man....

 

As an empathic human being, I have tried all these years to not be too judgmental,(even as a christian) to give to the poor, help the family, love all my neighbors, do the right thing, work to the bone to have a nice life of some kind...., I am even bringing my 91 year old MIL who is starting to lose her mind, here to live with me in a month. I have been an 'Empathic' person my whole life and I'm real tired......I feel as if I have lived a life among 'takers'. No lucky breaks for me.

 

Pity party today Margee?? I want to live in 'The New World'!!

[Denyoz]

Great video Antlerman, I think the exact same way. And it ends saying that the problem is institutions! Thus my post entitled Dealing with Immoral Institutions. We want to love more but we are stuck with archaic institutions. We have to work for them and obey them. They control everything in society. Sure I get to choose what I eat for dinner, but that's about all the freedom I have.

 

Speaking of dinner... It's time to EAT!!

[Denyoz]

Why? If that's how you genuinely feel then share that. Why should that make her feel disconnected? People like feeling other people's happiness. I guess I don't get why you say this.

 

Because I have two bodies: my physical body and my ethereal body. When my mother-in-law asks me about my health, she's referring to my physical body. I know that. If I answer: "I'm perfectly healthy, my life is filled with light, love and harmony, I'm totally happy because I will never die." I'm referring to my etheral body, therefore I'm not answering her question, I'm actually lying to her because my physical body WILL die.

 

On the other hand, let's say I have a sore throat and I answer: "I have a soar throat." I'm ignoring my ethereal body, I'm being materialistic, I'm not being a light in the darkness. Do you understand?

 

This is the problem. Once you realize you have an ethereal body, you want everyone to know this "good news." They will not believe you, unless they already know this good news. You cannot transmit this information, they have to see it for themselves and there is no way for me to make them see it.

 

You suggest meditation, hoping the person will have the same experience you had. I don't believe the average Joe on the street can experience his ethereal body by meditating, because this is not how I experienced it.

[Denyoz]

The art of it is going deep in simplicity. Show depth. Be simply love. Love is never superficial.

 

I'm a flirt. I can't help it, I have a flirt face. When I simply love, people think I'm trying to come on to them. I even get this from my mother-in-law, and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Now that I'm getting older it's even worse, I feel like a dirty old man.

 

But overall, I'm doing my best and I'm not doing so bad. I agree with everything you say, I know you are right, but I feel like I'm failing, which is probably a good thing: it keeps me humble.