Annoying Christian Thread Continued Here

[merck]

OrdinaryClay, I have a few questions for you (or any other Christians that care to clear this up).

 

1. Do you believe God is moral?

2. Do you believe the law in the Bible accurately represents God's morality?

3. Do you believe that the Gospels are an accurate representation of what Jesus' did, said, and represented?

 

Assuming you answer yes to those three questions, then do you believe it is moral to stone a child to death for being rebellious? (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) Do you believe it is moral to beat a slave to death? (Exodus 21:20-21)

 

If you answer no to either of those two questions, then:

1. Does this mean God is not the same yesterday, today, and forever? (Hebrews 13:8)

2.Was Jesus wrong? (Matt 5:17-18) (John 10:35)

3. Or is it that the Bible is fallible?

 

I look forward to your answers because I have several more questions for you.

[midniterider]

"'Do not I fill heaven and earth?' declares the Lord" (Jeremiah 23:24). God is said through Christ to be "sustaining all things by his powerful word" so that"in him all things hold together" (Hebrews 1:3; Colossians 1:17

 

 

 

 

Hmm seems as though i have found the verses which support my premise and londons, why dont you read the book in your profile picture captain? i thought you were christian?

 

http://www.christian...nz/scienc12.htm

 

(Jer 23:24) "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

 

God's presence is everywhere. Nothing is hidden from Him. Through His will He could dissolve the universe, but He is not embedded in creation. He is distinct from Creation.

 

My mistake i should not of taken it out of context, though i didnt realize it had anymore to the verse. Regardless in theism we should be able to detect his intervention, why dont we?

Yes, we should, and many, many highly educated and intelligent people do.

 

 

The study of natural theology detects His intervention through science and philosophy (the teleological argument for example) , while special revelation reveals His intervention through testimony and miracles. It is important to understand that the supernatural is by definition not subject to the empirical method.

 

To say there is no evidence is wrong. Atheists reject the evidence presented. When a legal case comes to trial the jurors don't throw up their hands ans say "no evidence", they reject the evidence presented. This is what atheists do. I've accepted the evidence.

 

Your imaginary god is not subject to the empirical method. Alright, I got it. Oh, hey , why do you have to keep speaking for your god? He should just talk to us individually and directly. Can't he defend himself? Why do YOU have to defend him? And why are you so ready to defend a god who never shows himself to you? What has god done for you that cannot be attributed to chance?

 

Jurors weigh evidence. Some evidence is real. Some is bullshit. Not all evidence is created equal. Xians feel that words written in a book is 'evidence' even though many books are made up stories. The only reason you believe in Jesus is because some PERSON or PERSONS convinced you that he exists and part of your mind has to continually override your common sense that knows that xianity is in fact false. The voice of god is your imagination.

[midniterider]

OrdinaryClay, I have a few questions for you (or any other Christians that care to clear this up).

 

1. Do you believe God is moral?

2. Do you believe the law in the Bible accurately represents God's morality?

3. Do you believe that the Gospels are an accurate representation of what Jesus' did, said, and represented?

 

Assuming you answer yes to those three questions, then do you believe it is moral to stone a child to death for being rebellious? (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) Do you believe it is moral to beat a slave to death? (Exodus 21:20-21)

 

If you answer no to either of those two questions, then:

1. Does this mean God is not the same yesterday, today, and forever? (Hebrews 13:8)

2.Was Jesus wrong? (Matt 5:17-18) (John 10:35)

3. Or is it that the Bible is fallible?

 

I look forward to your answers because I have several more questions for you.

 

Any moment Clay's neocortex is going to start functioning and it will be ALL YOUR FAULT. lol.

[bdp]

To say there is no evidence is wrong.

 

No it isn't - there is NO evidence. None.

[Guest Valk0010]

OrdinaryClay, I have a few questions for you (or any other Christians that care to clear this up).

 

1. Do you believe God is moral?

2. Do you believe the law in the Bible accurately represents God's morality?

3. Do you believe that the Gospels are an accurate representation of what Jesus' did, said, and represented?

 

Assuming you answer yes to those three questions, then do you believe it is moral to stone a child to death for being rebellious? (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) Do you believe it is moral to beat a slave to death? (Exodus 21:20-21)

 

If you answer no to either of those two questions, then:

1. Does this mean God is not the same yesterday, today, and forever? (Hebrews 13:8)

2.Was Jesus wrong? (Matt 5:17-18) (John 10:35)

3. Or is it that the Bible is fallible?

 

I look forward to your answers because I have several more questions for you.

 

Any moment Clay's neocortex is going to start functioning and it will be ALL YOUR FAULT. lol.

Ohh I really doubt that to be honest. He seems like the type who will go to his grave believing even if the whole world realizes christianity is bullshit, sorry to say.

[merck]

 

Any moment Clay's neocortex is going to start functioning and it will be ALL YOUR FAULT. lol.

 

One can only hope! I see OC is reading this topic so I hope he will respond.

[Guest Valk0010]

Kalam could be used to prove fairies.

Please demonstrate.

1. Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence;
    
   
2. The universe has a beginning of its existence; Therefore:
    
   
3. The universe has a cause of its existence.
   

Well the cause could be anything, I meant fairies in jest to just point out the speculative nature of the conclusion. If this argument is valid, one could say, for example. These magical blue fairies that like sand and have white clothes have enough power to create the universe with there wands but they got disgusted with there creation, so they use there magic to cause things like mental illness. If kalam is valid, there is no good reason to say that kalam couldn't be proof of a good like that. You don't know anything about who caused the universe by that.

 

Also see post 122

 

No, the cause can not be anything. Only a conscious non-contingent entity outside the natural laws of the universe. For example It can't be a unicorn or the "spaghetti monster" because such "things" are physical entities made of matter. I agree this leaves open other characteristics, like the moral behavior of such an entity, but the KCA does not allow for anything to be the Creator.

I know that, but it still can go for just about anything one could concieve. Who says fairies can't be beyond natural law? Rather then debate the meaning of the world fairy I just want you to get the point. Its too vague to be a good answer.

[bornagainathiest]

Before we proceed, please prove beyond all reasonable doubt that Yahweh (not just *A* divinity, but *that particular* divinity) exists, arguing only from extra-biblical sources. Cite sources and peer-reviewed studies and avoid scientifically-illiterate sources.

Have you proven the god you follow?

 

How about answering a question with a question, Clay?

 

That dodge buys you time, if nothing else.

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Oh, do you mean this one, Clay... ?

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/50818-what-really-is-a-christian-anyway/page__st__40

The thread where I'm still waiting for you to answer the question (the one I've put to you FOUR times now) concerning the full implications of eternal inflation, as described by Alan Guth?

The thread where you'll do anything to avoid answering that question?

 

What's it been... almost two months now?

http://www.ex-christ...ristian-anyway/

 

I have precedence over you Clay.

 

A fact that you keep on avoiding, glossing over or ignoring.

 

That thread you linked to proves it.

 

Here's what you wrote about it, two days ago...

The kalam argues for an intelligent non-contingent cause. God best fits such a requirement. Ask BAA for a link to the thread he and I discussed such a subject. He should be glad to give it to you.

 

Yes, we discussed the subject, but in that discussion I've asked you FOUR TIMES to describe the full implications of Alan Guth's eternal inflation model. You still haven't done so.

 

So, your link simply serves to show where you've consistently failed to answer my questions.

Questions that I put to you before you put others to me and raised other points.

Therefore, I have precedence over you.

 

So, for the FIFTH TIME I ask you to answer my question. I don't care if you do it here or in that other thread. Just answer it.

 

BAA.

 

 

 

p.s.

Where's the fruit?

[bornagainathiest]

OrdinaryClay, I have a few questions for you (or any other Christians that care to clear this up).

 

1. Do you believe God is moral?

2. Do you believe the law in the Bible accurately represents God's morality?

3. Do you believe that the Gospels are an accurate representation of what Jesus' did, said, and represented?

 

Assuming you answer yes to those three questions, then do you believe it is moral to stone a child to death for being rebellious? (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) Do you believe it is moral to beat a slave to death? (Exodus 21:20-21)

 

If you answer no to either of those two questions, then:

1. Does this mean God is not the same yesterday, today, and forever? (Hebrews 13:8)

2.Was Jesus wrong? (Matt 5:17-18) (John 10:35)

3. Or is it that the Bible is fallible?

 

I look forward to your answers because I have several more questions for you.

 

Any moment Clay's neocortex is going to start functioning and it will be ALL YOUR FAULT. lol.

Ohh I really doubt that to be honest. He seems like the type who will go to his grave believing even if the whole world realizes christianity is bullshit, sorry to say.

 

And your incisive observation Valk, neatly answers why some of us take the time to respond to him.

 

By calling OrdinaryClay to account we are rendering a helpful and protective service to the many traumatized, betrayed and mislead people who look in here and consider de-converting. They have been injured by the remorseless and intolerant certainty of "True Christians" like him.

 

Therefore, we the strong, choose to protect the weak and vulnerable from "Bulldozers-for-Christ" * like him.

 

That's why.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

*

Note:

I can't claim to have coined this apt description.

I first saw it used by Centauri and I reckon it fits OC's arrogant, condescending and destructive style of posting to a tee.

[antix]

So you are saying in your opinion God is not real and some peole believe He is?

 

The Bible does not teach God is in everything.

 

In my experience there is no abrahamic god. The proof will be on 7-4-2012, I asked for world peace.

 

I did not claim that the bible says god is in everything, the church claimed that. I don't believe the bible or the church to be correct or an authority on it.

 

The fact remains that god is not anywhere to be found, this god is clearly absent from everything. The void in space has a more tangible existence.

 

In my experience God does exist. You seem to have a very shallow notion of proof.

 

The god you claim to beckon is a caricature from hollywood. A small amount of thought makes it clear that God's will is the guiding factor in all answered prayers. It is easy to construct conflicting prayers that God will not answer. God will not answer prayer outside His will. Now praying for peace is a good thing to pray for, and we should all do this, but pretending that because it does not happen is proof God does not exist is ill-conceived. In fact, it is simply the problem of evil re-stated, which has been demonstrated as not logically sound.

 

 

Clay. I am not one to pray for selfish things. here are my unanswered prayers

 

1997 aunt died, I was on my knees when I received the phone call she was dying nothing

2007 another aunt was dying, I knew she did not have long and I prayed like crazy, contacted a prayer line etc nothing

3 weeks ago My father died in may and there is a short service in the greek orthodox church 40 days (or the closest sunday after). I prayed a certain person I really dislike would not show up. They did. Prayers are not answered

[bornagainathiest]

I thought this was a discussion of behavior that both us and many Christians agree is annoying Christian behavior.... not an exhibition piece....

 

 

Like Mcdaddy said where is the fruit?

Where did I transgress?

 

You really cannot see what McDaddy means, can you Clay?

 

And now his pertinent observation has now been joined by Antixianxian's (#105) and Akheia's (#162).

 

No, McD's question isn't about the presence of any transgression on your part. Rather, he and the others have noticed the absence of something - something that you should be in your behavior and clearly isn't. That's why his question is a 'where?'.

 

A true Christian is known by this 'something'; not by the soundness of their arguments, nor by their decades of deep thought and not by their absolute certainty. Those Christians without this certain 'something' are no more than resounding gongs or clanging cymbals.

 

Do you see what McD means now?

 

BAA.

 

In case you're struggling to understand what the certain 'something' you lack is Clay, here's a clue...

 

...from yourself, interestingly enough. The highlighting is mine, for your benefit.

 

http://www.ex-christ...g-christianity/

OrdinaryClay...

Posted 26 February 2010 - 06:34 AM

Suppose, a person answered "no", does this mean their current treatment of people was reflective of when they were a Christian. Is so what does that say about their Christian experience. Now suppose a person answered "yes", then we have two possibilities. Their current treatment of people is worse then before or their current treatment of people is better then before. Let's suppose it is the former. Then this implies a goodness stemming from Christianity. Now let's suppose it is the latter. Then this says something about their Christian experience.

 

Mat 7:20

(20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

Where's the goodness (fruit) in you that should stem from your faith?

 

BAA.

[Kaiser01]

What about natural disasters then? In the creationism view natural disasters are easily explained by the fall of man, however in your view of theistic evolution natural disasters, disease and other calamities have no reason to exist.

Actually I don't support theistic evolution. Based on the evidence I'm an old earth Christian, and I believe a form of Intelligent Design.

 

The point there is, do you believe in a litter Adam?

[♦ ficino ♦]

So you are saying in your opinion God is not real and some peole believe He is?

 

The Bible does not teach God is in everything.

 

In my experience there is no abrahamic god. The proof will be on 7-4-2012, I asked for world peace.

 

I did not claim that the bible says god is in everything, the church claimed that. I don't believe the bible or the church to be correct or an authority on it.

 

The fact remains that god is not anywhere to be found, this god is clearly absent from everything. The void in space has a more tangible existence.

 

In my experience God does exist. You seem to have a very shallow notion of proof.

 

The god you claim to beckon is a caricature from hollywood. A small amount of thought makes it clear that God's will is the guiding factor in all answered prayers. It is easy to construct conflicting prayers that God will not answer. God will not answer prayer outside His will. Now praying for peace is a good thing to pray for, and we should all do this, but pretending that because it does not happen is proof God does not exist is ill-conceived. In fact, it is simply the problem of evil re-stated, which has been demonstrated as not logically sound.

 

 

Clay. I am not one to pray for selfish things. here are my unanswered prayers

 

1997 aunt died, I was on my knees when I received the phone call she was dying nothing

2007 another aunt was dying, I knew she did not have long and I prayed like crazy, contacted a prayer line etc nothing

3 weeks ago My father died in may and there is a short service in the greek orthodox church 40 days (or the closest sunday after). I prayed a certain person I really dislike would not show up. They did. Prayers are not answered

 

Antixianxian, I did not realize that you lost your father so recently. I am very sorry. You have my heartfelt condolences.

[Kaiser01]

"'Do not I fill heaven and earth?' declares the Lord" (Jeremiah 23:24). God is said through Christ to be "sustaining all things by his powerful word" so that"in him all things hold together" (Hebrews 1:3; Colossians 1:17

 

 

 

 

Hmm seems as though i have found the verses which support my premise and londons, why dont you read the book in your profile picture captain? i thought you were christian?

 

http://www.christian...nz/scienc12.htm

 

(Jer 23:24) "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

 

God's presence is everywhere. Nothing is hidden from Him. Through His will He could dissolve the universe, but He is not embedded in creation. He is distinct from Creation.

 

My mistake i should not of taken it out of context, though i didnt realize it had anymore to the verse. Regardless in theism we should be able to detect his intervention, why dont we?

Yes, we should, and many, many highly educated and intelligent people do.

 

 

The study of natural theology detects His intervention through science and philosophy (the teleological argument for example) , while special revelation reveals His intervention through testimony and miracles. It is important to understand that the supernatural is by definition not subject to the empirical method.

 

To say there is no evidence is wrong. Atheists reject the evidence presented. When a legal case comes to trial the jurors don't throw up their hands ans say "no evidence", they reject the evidence presented. This is what atheists do. I've accepted the evidence.

 

Once agian, what evidence is there for the existence of God? Except for William Dembski's "Signs" which is just a fancy way of making personal preference of "well im just not going to accept the evidence on emotional reasons." God is unnecessary for anything, probably even the existence of life and the birth of the universe. Life is not magic, its not supernatural, its found on the periodic table. You will sit here and say there is"evidence for God" But the ONLY evidence you have. just like creationist, is an anti evolution stance.

 

You do nothing to prove your own claim, no experiments, no empirical data, no actual work. you simply cross your arms at evolution and say you win by default. Its what creationist do and its what intelligent design does as well. You want to prove God to me? Show me something then, Show me real effort, show me a scientific peer reviewed paper, something other than this teach the controversy bullshit and your snake attempt to pass the scientific system and force your way into schools instead.

 

Natural theology is preference of looking at something a certain way, in a fashion that cant be proved. We can show God is not needed for any of this we see in the universe but you will attach him as if he is some kind of dangling modifier and lazily say, with no scientific effort, "god did it." The teleological method is not evidence, its you sticking your head in the sand and folding your arms like how i described above.

 

I have asked you three or four times for real evidence, and now i see im not going to get any.

 

Good day.

[bornagainathiest]

So you are saying in your opinion God is not real and some peole believe He is?

 

The Bible does not teach God is in everything.

 

In my experience there is no abrahamic god. The proof will be on 7-4-2012, I asked for world peace.

 

I did not claim that the bible says god is in everything, the church claimed that. I don't believe the bible or the church to be correct or an authority on it.

 

The fact remains that god is not anywhere to be found, this god is clearly absent from everything. The void in space has a more tangible existence.

 

In my experience God does exist. You seem to have a very shallow notion of proof.

 

The god you claim to beckon is a caricature from hollywood. A small amount of thought makes it clear that God's will is the guiding factor in all answered prayers. It is easy to construct conflicting prayers that God will not answer. God will not answer prayer outside His will. Now praying for peace is a good thing to pray for, and we should all do this, but pretending that because it does not happen is proof God does not exist is ill-conceived. In fact, it is simply the problem of evil re-stated, which has been demonstrated as not logically sound.

 

 

Clay. I am not one to pray for selfish things. here are my unanswered prayers

 

1997 aunt died, I was on my knees when I received the phone call she was dying nothing

2007 another aunt was dying, I knew she did not have long and I prayed like crazy, contacted a prayer line etc nothing

3 weeks ago My father died in may and there is a short service in the greek orthodox church 40 days (or the closest sunday after). I prayed a certain person I really dislike would not show up. They did. Prayers are not answered

 

Antixx,

 

Sorry for butting in like this, but I reckon you're looking for something within Clay that either isn't there or that he isn't willing to display.

 

He appears to value the logical soundness of arguments for the truth of Christianity over such unimportant matters as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness or self-control.

 

Antixx, since you are having serious doubts about Christianity I would recommend that you take a long, hard dispassionate look at the behavior of this "True Christian" and ask yourself if it represents anything you'd care aspire to or emulate. If the true measure of the historicity of Christ's resurrection is the good spiritual fruit shown by his followers, what does his fruit tell you?

 

Does OrdinaryClay's spiritual fruit confirm that Jesus rose from the dead or not?

.

.

.

.

.

.

Also, please let me add my sincere condolences to those of Ficino.

My mom died in the middle of last month, so I've an idea of how you're feeling right now.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[antix]

Thanks for the condolences guys. As for fruits of the spirit, I see it in very very few. Compassion? That is another faith shaker, I am conservative, but anti war (unless we truly are attacked) and christians were/are the most pro iraq war people on the planet. When you look at it, christians are the biggest jackoffs there are.

[Kaiser01]

Thanks for the condolences guys. As for fruits of the spirit, I see it in very very few. Compassion? That is another faith shaker, I am conservative, but anti war (unless we truly are attacked) and christians were/are the most pro iraq war people on the planet. When you look at it, christians are the biggest jackoffs there are.

 

They oppose medical miracles that could save millions but hold to the idea that weapons that can kill millions are their god given right.

[antix]

Thanks for the condolences guys. As for fruits of the spirit, I see it in very very few. Compassion? That is another faith shaker, I am conservative, but anti war (unless we truly are attacked) and christians were/are the most pro iraq war people on the planet. When you look at it, christians are the biggest jackoffs there are.

 

They oppose medical miracles that could save millions but hold to the idea that weapons that can kill millions are their god given right.

 

Don't get me started on that one. Stem cells have so much promise. Also, it has been shown by statistics that the reason the crime rate is much less today than predicted 30 yrs ago is due to abortions.

[♦ ficino ♦]

My mom died in the middle of last month, so I've an idea of how you're feeling right now.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

Dear BAA, I also did not know that you lost your mother last month. I am very sorry and extend my sincere condolences to you as well.

[antix]

Mcdaddy mentioned this, but many christians are not logical and they are weak minded. the faith is growing in response to a declining economy and a fucked up society, but if there was a trunaround where 5 million good paying jobs came back. Those churches would fold so quick.

[raoul]

Thanks for the condolences guys. As for fruits of the spirit, I see it in very very few. Compassion? That is another faith shaker, I am conservative, but anti war (unless we truly are attacked) and christians were/are the most pro iraq war people on the planet. When you look at it, christians are the biggest jackoffs there are.

 

They oppose medical miracles that could save millions but hold to the idea that weapons that can kill millions are their god given right.

 

Don't get me started on that one. Stem cells have so much promise. Also, it has been shown by statistics that the reason the crime rate is much less today than predicted 30 yrs ago is due to abortions.

Know something? I think I may have misjudged you when we first tangled. My apologies..

[antix]

Thanks for the condolences guys. As for fruits of the spirit, I see it in very very few. Compassion? That is another faith shaker, I am conservative, but anti war (unless we truly are attacked) and christians were/are the most pro iraq war people on the planet. When you look at it, christians are the biggest jackoffs there are.

 

They oppose medical miracles that could save millions but hold to the idea that weapons that can kill millions are their god given right.

 

Don't get me started on that one. Stem cells have so much promise. Also, it has been shown by statistics that the reason the crime rate is much less today than predicted 30 yrs ago is due to abortions.

Know something? I think I may have misjudged you when we first tangled. My apologies..

 

hey, no problems I get sick of christians bitching about stem cells when they are truly miraculous in what they can do with them. Face it, and I am sure everyone here is aware of this. Most christians live in a bubble (and they are also seriously cheap fucks)

[Legion]

Know something? I think I may have misjudged you when we first tangled. My apologies..

 

I raised you one Raoul

and I'll tell you why.

To err is human

To forgive is divine.

But to ask for forgiveness

that is sublime.

[antix]

I have a PhD and have had a total of 2 biochemistry courses and I know very little about stem cells (except they are fantastic for many degenerative conditions and work wonders), yet some how the great pastor billy bob galatian can say they are evil and he graduated the 8th grade.