Debate challenge

[Guest Jesus knows Kung Fu]

Hello everyone. I come to you with the love of Jesus. But sometimes that love can come in the form of a swift kick in the rear!

 

I have a debate challenge for you all, and I chose to come to the lions den because my position is iron clad and with it, I can make the fiercest lion that is in here scurry away like a scared little kitten.

 

I know most of you have heard of JP holding. Most skeptics shudder at the name. But he has written an article entitled The Impossible Faith, that has silenced even the most hardened skeptics, and left them without a leg to stand on.

 

What I would like to do is to take on a few of you lions with the question "who would buy one crucified?", which is factor one of the article. If you have not read the article, I would advise you do so.

 

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html

 

I also would advise you to read a few of the counter arguments to this article, so we won't waste any time go over ground that has already been victoriously claimed.

 

So i'll start with the question " who would buy one crucified?" I will also start with the premise that :

 

Crucifixion in the Roman empire shamed the victim in all cases, regardless of the circumstances, and with absolute no exception, period!

 

Now why would anyone accept a saviour when everyone viewed Jesus' crucifixion as shameful? Given the fact that the ancient near east was what sociologist and anthropologists call an "honor/shame" society?

 

I'll be back this evening to refute anything that any of you may have to say about this!

 

Good luck and Godspeed!

 

Jesus knows Kung-Fu!

[Cerise]

....can you possibly be less coherant?

 

What does buying or selling saviours have to do with anything? What is this question supposed to be an answer to?

 

Okay, the article, from about two minutes into it, is already stretching itself beyond its limits. Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that Christianity is the ONLY religion in which a god has been killed and then revived? Seriously?

 

The hanged god is like a religious staple. Jesus wasn't being original at all in that respect.

 

JP Holding is stupider then I thought, and you are too if you think this kind of tripe will sway anybody here.

[MQTA]

A Reply to J. P. Holding's "Shattering" of My Views on Jesus and an Examination of the Early Pagan and Jewish References to Jesus (2000) - G.A. Wells

 

 

Haven't read much about JP Holding, seems to be a lot on both sides. Doesn't seem to be very civil to most people one would think he's trying to reach.

[Taphophilia]

 

 

The same people who would buy Dionysus crucified, centuries before Jesus.

 

Yeah, you can really take us on. Please, come back when you have a ligitimate arguement.

[Vigile]

 

I'll answer your nonsensical question once I'm done shuddering for I have indeed been reduced to a kitten.

[Mythra]

You gotta prove that Jesus lived as a man before you can prove he died as one.

 

(Don't waste a lot of time on this..)

 

Since he never lived, the "evidence" supporting his existence is sometimes contrived, sometimes outright fraudulent. It only convinces people who have a need to be convinced. Most of us have been there, done that, and have the t-shirt to prove it.

 

But, you're more than welcome to try.

 

 

We're all ears.

[non conformist]

Ok, I'll humor you Christian....I'm bored today. You pose a very, uh, unique question *sarcastic smirk*. Who would accept a crucified being as their saviour/god? Hmmm....Well, only these guys:

 

Chrishna of Hindostan.

Budha Sakia of India.

Salivahana of Bermuda.

Zulis, or Zhule, also Osiris and Orus, of Egypt.

Odin of the Scaudinavians.

Crite of Chaldea.

Zoroaster and Mithra of Persia.

Baal and Taut, "the only Begotten of God," of Phenicia.

Indra of Thibet.

Bali of Afghanistan.

Jao of Nepaul.

Wittoba of the Bilingonese.

Thammuz of Syria.

Atys of Phrygia.

Xaniolxis of Thrace.

Zoar of the Bonzes.

Adad of Assyria.

Deva Tat, and Sammonocadam of Siam.

Alcides of Thebes.

Mikado of the Sintoos.

Beddru of Japan.

Hesus or Eros, and Bremrillah, of the Druids.

Thor, son of Odin, of the Gauls.

Cadmus of Greece.

Hil and Feta of the Mandaites.

Gentaut and Quexalcote of Mexico.

Universal Monarch of the Sibyls.

Ischy of the Island of Formosa.

Divine Teacher of Plato.

Holy One of Xaca.

Fohi and Tien of China.

Adonis, son of the virgin Io of Greece.

IxiOn and Quirinus of Rome.

Prometheus of Caucasus.

Mohamud, or Mahomet, of Arabia.

 

These guys were all gods that took on human form, you know, to identify with human feelings and emotions...then they laid the foundation for the salvation of the world and ascended back to heaven. Oh, and the ones in bold were all crucified. And in their little corner of the world they existed as the only gods for thousands of years before your Jesus. Now, you answer me this....what is so special and unique about Jesus, when his story it's obviously a carbon copy of these other "sons of God"?

[greasemonkey]

few would deny the historical reality of the crucifixion.

 

I think this was the part where I figured there wouldn't be much debate going on here on the topic...

 

great pic Taph! (I've used that one myself a few times...) The fact it exists at all pretty much derails the premise of most of what I read on the linked site (I didn't waste too much time on it).

 

...here's some good reading JKKF

 

http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/

[Ssel]

What I would like to do is to take on a few of you lions with the question ...

Hmmm.. Should I? .. or shouldn't I?

[Taphophilia]

What I would like to do is to take on a few of you lions with the question ...

Hmmm.. Should I? .. or shouldn't I?

 

Ssel,

 

I am not sure if I could bear to watch the intellectual slaughter of this guy that would unfold if you took him on in a debate.

 

Taph

[Guest Jesus knows Kung Fu]

As far as the "crucified gods" that you have mentioned thus far, which one of them were crucified in a society where honor was held to be the highest virtue?

 

Also, many of those copy cat claims have been thorougly debunked. Even many non-christian scholars no longer use them, as they the evidence for them is thin to none. http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html

 

Take a look at this one while your at it too: http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/dionysus.html

 

Now don't just skim these articles, really read them, as JP as done the best, most exhaustive research on the matter than anyone I have known. All you guys are doing are just regurgitating the same old line from the skeptic that "christianity borrowed from other religions."

 

For instance, the claim that Dionysus was crucified on a tree has no basis in fact whatsoever! Sure you may find a claim like that in some book written by a skeptic, but check his notes and references, every single time, they are explanatory, and not documentory! The only referenece there is from ancient literature is that dionysis was dionysis of the tree, as well as one translation, dionysis in the tree! There is absolutely no mention anywhere in ancient literature about dionysis dying in a tree. I thought you guys are already up on this!

 

Now when you read these articles, it's going to be difficult for your minds to open up to the truth of it, because in the back of your mind, your thinking that if I believe that JP is correct in this matter, then christianity must be true! No, it doesn't necessarily mean that Christianity is true just because there was no influence from other myths and legends. It only means that Christianity wasn't influenced by other myths and legends.

 

I challenge any of you to find me evidence that another God was crucified. And I mean evidence from a valid source. Appealing to the book " 16 crucified saviours" does not count, unless the author gives valid reference from his resources. The same goes for Acharya.

 

Also, many of these deaths of the gods were believed by the ancients (and rightfully so) to have happened in some netherworld. Jesus, on the other hand, happened right here in the real world. You see the difference? There was no social influence of shame and honor in these netherworlds, and none of them suffered the most disgraceful shame that Jesus suffered. There is no evidence that it was counted as shameful for any of these gods to die that way they did (and yes, some of them did die, but none were crucified."

 

For those who are trying to throw the argument off course by claiming that there is no evidence the Jesus existed, then let's just play in the hypothetical realm shall we?

 

The main point here is that no one in the biblical roman empire would have subscribed to a religion that was centered around a god who was treated in the most shameful way known to man, without any validating evidence that it was true!

 

Seriously, read those articles. There's really no parallel to Jesus in ancient mytholgy.

 

And always remember, Jesus knows Kung Fu! And, I WILL be back to further plunder your unbelief!

 

Peace out! And remember, gas cookers work better than grills!

 

 

 

I have a quick correction to make here:

 

when I said "Also, many of those copy cat claims have been thorougly debunked. Even many non-christian scholars no longer use them, as they the evidence for them is thin to none. "

 

I meant to say "ALL those copycat claims have been debunked."

 

Thank you so very much and I greatly appreciate everything that you have ever done for me. I love you moe than anyone on earth and want to be with you forever. I love you.

[Cerise]

The main point here is that no one in the biblical roman empire would have subscribed to a religion that was centered around a god who was treated in the most shameful way known to man, without any validating evidence that it was true!

 

You're begging the question here. Unless you are actually an ancient Roman, back from the dead and typing on his mommies Mac, how can you claim to know what an ancient Roman would and would not condescend to worship? You can't. You can only guess.

 

You're claiming that because other people think Jesus was real, then he was real. That's not an argument. Certianly not one to be proud of making, like you, for some reason, are. It's just silly.

 

Thank you so very much and I greatly appreciate everything that you have ever done for me. I love you moe than anyone on earth and want to be with you forever. I love you.

 

 

Newsflash honey, you aren't Jesus. Stop speaking for the guy.

[Mythra]

I've been keeping track. This is the fourth fundy to come here claiming no evidence for Alexander the Great. Then, when you present it to them, they ignore it.

 

Josh McDowell wins again.

 

 

oops.

 

 

 

different thread.

 

 

 

nevermind.

[Bodhi-in-Training]

I challenge any of you to find me evidence that another God was crucified. And I mean evidence from a valid source. Appealing to the book " 16 crucified saviours" does not count, unless the author gives valid reference from his resources. The same goes for Acharya.

 

Key word here....another...there is no evidence that Jesus was a "God" or even existed...in fact there is no evidence that any "God" exists... so what's the point?

[Antlerman]

Now when you read these articles, it's going to be difficult for your minds to open up to the truth of it, because in the back of your mind, your thinking that if I believe that JP is correct in this matter, then christianity must be true!

Question: Which one of us do you think approaches knowledge in a closed system, viz.; one that is bound between two leather covers with the words "Holy Bible" printed on it? Please pardon me, but I think biases and closed mindedness is the specialty of fundamentalists, such as you. You are projecting how you approach knowledge onto us. I left your faith because I was open to any possibility . Are you?

 

Your entire "proof" through reason is a ridiculous waste of time for us. You should be preaching "faith", not reason! If you want me to accept Christ through rationality, then you aren't preaching the Gospel that you claim to believe in, IMHO. To me this is yet another iteration of the "rationality" of religious belief, which always and ever proves to be fraught with logic fallacies. You’re working against a long history of circular reasoning and intellectual dishonesty from within the apologetic community. Why are you wasting your time and ours? It's supposed to be believed through faith, not "justified truth" through deductive reasoning, right?

[Dio]

Another Rameus spoof?

 

* Christ-myth topic

* broad knowledge of existing scholarship with respect to said topic

* JP Holding obsession

* dismissal of Acharya and Kersey Graves

* anthropological reference - 'what sociologist and anthropologists call an "honor/shame" society?'

* do real Christians really talk this way?

'Jesus knows Kung Fu'

'gas cookers work better than grills! '

'Thank you so very much and I greatly appreciate everything that you have ever done for me. I love you moe than anyone on earth and want to be with you forever. I love you.'

 

Not that it matters to me, but just a wild guess.

[Checkmate]

I challenge any of you to find me evidence that another God was crucified.

WTF?

Hasn't anyone told this idiot that the majority of us here DON'T believe in "god"? Most of us don't believe in "Jesus". We don't believe that ANY "god-man" was crucified. They are ALL myths! THAT is the source of our UNBELIEF!

 

Why the FUCK would you be so STUPID as to expect ME to provide PROOF of shit that I DON'T believe in?

 

*sigh* Dude, go fuck yourself. Go back to your church friends and masturbate with the Holy Spook. Stop trying to sell us shit that we've already rejected. Hebrews 6:4-6, baby. Go read it.

 

 

(Is it me, or are we still receiving visits from idiotic Christians who seek to validate THEIR faith by challenging US to "debates"? I haven't sought out ONE Christian to fight with, and yet they constantly enter here with "challenges". I never have attempted to PROVE my unbelief to anyone, and yet these "Christians" seem desperate to validate THEIR "faith" to us. Even though we don't care. Interesting. Very Freudian.)

[Guest Jesus knows Kung Fu]

You're begging the question here. Unless you are actually an ancient Roman, back from the dead and typing on his mommies Mac, how can you claim to know what an ancient Roman would and would not condescend to worship? You can't. You can only guess.

 

Oh boot skoot boogey! Can you provide me one instance in the Roman empire where crucifixion was not shameful? Betcha can't!

 

And can you provide me one instance where honor was not the motivation in this ancient honor/shame society?

 

Do you really understand the sociology of a collectivist, honor/shame society? Perhaps you are imposing your western, modernist view onto the ancient world. In the west, we live in what is called a guilt/pride culture, as opposed to the biblical roman empire, which was an honor/shame culture. There is VAST difference! And there are social implications that you just can't circumvent of a religion within an honor/shame society that has a God who was shamed by crucifixion. A better question to ask would be " who would subscribe to Shame?"

 

 

You're claiming that because other people think Jesus was real, then he was real. That's not an argument. Certianly not one to be proud of making, like you, for some reason, are. It's just silly.

 

This is not an argument about the historocity of Jesus. This is about a religion that grew in spite of the social stigma of degrading shame associated with it.

 

 

 

Newsflash honey, you aren't Jesus. Stop speaking for the guy.

 

But I love Jesus and I love the bible his holy wird. I dontthink it is entirely innearrant, but I think it is inspired truth from the only true God of the universe.

[Asimov]

Hello everyone. I come to you with the love of Jesus. But sometimes that love can come in the form of a swift kick in the rear!

 

Oh, flashy show of arrogance, I can see where this is going.

 

So i'll start with the question " who would buy one crucified?" I will also start with the premise that :

 

Crucifixion in the Roman empire shamed the victim in all cases, regardless of the circumstances, and with absolute no exception, period!

 

Now why would anyone accept a saviour when everyone viewed Jesus' crucifixion as shameful? Given the fact that the ancient near east was what sociologist and anthropologists call an "honor/shame" society?

 

I'll be back this evening to refute anything that any of you may have to say about this!

 

Good luck and Godspeed!

 

Jesus knows Kung-Fu!

 

 

See? My Law stands as true.

 

How do you know everyone viewed it as shameful? Were you there?

[Guest Jesus knows Kung Fu]

I challenge any of you to find me evidence that another God was crucified.

WTF?

Hasn't anyone told this idiot that the majority of us here DON'T believe in "god"? Most of us don't believe in "Jesus". We don't believe that ANY "god-man" was crucified. They are ALL myths! THAT is the source of our UNBELIEF!

 

Why the FUCK would you be so STUPID as to expect ME to provide PROOF of shit that I DON'T believe in?

 

*sigh* Dude, go fuck yourself. Go back to your church friends and masturbate with the Holy Spook. Stop trying to sell us shit that we've already rejected. Hebrews 6:4-6, baby. Go read it.

 

 

(Is it me, or are we still receiving visits from idiotic Christians who seek to validate THEIR faith by challenging US to "debates"? I haven't sought out ONE Christian to fight with, and yet they constantly enter here with "challenges". I never have attempted to PROVE my unbelief to anyone, and yet these "Christians" seem desperate to validate THEIR "faith" to us. Even though we don't care. Interesting. Very Freudian.)

 

Please don't post anymore. Your ranting has nothing to do with the topic. There seems to be some that have already responded in this thread with at least some sense of civility, and had the cognitive ability to stay on topic. Go rant eslewhere, or join the discussion with some solid referenced facts.

[All Gods Fail]

And always remember, Jesus knows Kung Fu! And, I WILL be back to further plunder your unbelief!

 

Try a bit harder - I don't think you've plundered anyone's unbelief yet. Even if you were right, so what? My objection to christ is not that he may have been borrowed from other religions. The problem of the bible's validity goes much deeper than that. The 'crucified god' arguement is a trifle compared to all the other problems with xtianity's validity.

 

Plus, I think a Shoalin monk would pretty much kick Jesus's ass in a one-on-one fight.

 

I love you moe than anyone on earth and want to be with you forever. I love you.

 

Also, why do you love Moe so much?

[Guest Jesus knows Kung Fu]

Another Rameus spoof?

 

* Christ-myth topic

* broad knowledge of existing scholarship with respect to said topic

* JP Holding obsession

* dismissal of Acharya and Kersey Graves

* anthropological reference - 'what sociologist and anthropologists call an "honor/shame" society?'

* do real Christians really talk this way?

'Jesus knows Kung Fu'

'gas cookers work better than grills! '

'Thank you so very much and I greatly appreciate everything that you have ever done for me. I love you moe than anyone on earth and want to be with you forever. I love you.'

 

Not that it matters to me, but just a wild guess.

 

 

What meanest thou?

 

 

 

Try a bit harder - I don't think you've plundered anyone's unbelief yet. Even if you were right, so what? My objection to christ is not that he may have been borrowed from other religions. The problem of the bible's validity goes much deeper than that. The 'crucified god' arguement is a trifle compared to all the other problems with xtianity's validity.

 

Finally, someone who has actually researched the issue enough to know that the "copycat claim" thesis juse isn't supported. I appreciate that you have deeper issues with Christianity, and perhaps we can discuss those issues at a later time, but at the moment, i'm trying to herd some cats here, as everyone seems to be going off on a tangent.

 

Plus, I think a Shoalin monk would pretty much kick Jesus's ass in a one-on-one fight.

 

Nuh-uh!

 

I love you moe than anyone on earth and want to be with you forever. I love you.

 

Also, why do you love Moe so much?

 

I love Moe for the things he has done for me. He is my trusted friend and ally in our fight against the forces of evil.

 

 

How do you know everyone viewed it as shameful? Were you there?

 

Now this is purring to my ears! What an astute question, and one that is dead on topic!

 

Yes, this is what I want to discuss! Now, to start with, you wouldn't happen to have an instance where crucifixion was not viewed as shameful in the roman empire would you?

[Cerise]

Oh boot skoot boogey! Can you provide me one instance in the Roman empire where crucifixion was not shameful? Betcha can't!

 

Can you provide any proof that this thing you call "honor/shame" would have entirely prevented ANYONE from following Christianity (and remember, this would be a cult rising years after the supposed crucifixtion in any case)? Betcha can't!

 

And can you provide me one instance where honor was not the motivation in this ancient honor/shame society?

 

Nope. But then, you can't do the opposite either. You weren't there. That's why we call historicism the interpretive science. 'Cause the past will always be, in some way, irretrivable as it was and thus, needs to be reinterpreted.

 

Do you really understand the sociology of a collectivist, honor/shame society? Perhaps you are imposing your western, modernist view onto the ancient world. In the west, we live in what is called a guilt/pride culture, as opposed to the biblical roman empire, which was an honor/shame culture. There is VAST difference! And there are social implications that you just can't circumvent of a religion within an honor/shame society that has a God who was shamed by crucifixion. A better question to ask would be " who would subscribe to Shame?"

 

Christianity wasn't popular until long after the death of a guy named Jesus. I don't think it would be that difficult to see society changing its views on what would and would not be acceptable to worship. Otherwise you could say that the Holocaust never happened because the European Enlightenment happened and a rational/scientific society couldn't produce the environment neccessary for the reign of a mass-murdering fuckhead dictator. Except it did.

 

Societies are weird that way.

 

This is not an argument about the historocity of Jesus. This is about a religion that grew in spite of the social stigma of degrading shame associated with it.

 

Doesn't Nietzsche cover all this in Beyond Good and Evil? Didn't we go through all this already? The growth of christianity is not proof of its validity, merely that people could and did use the idea of christianity to push an ideology really really far. So that we're still suffering from it today. Thanks a lot Roman Empire.

 

But I love Jesus and I love the bible his holy wird. I dontthink it is entirely innearrant, but I think it is inspired truth from the only true God of the universe.

 

Go pray in a closet then, and leave us alone like Jesus said you ought.

[All Gods Fail]

 

Try a bit harder - I don't think you've plundered anyone's unbelief yet. Even if you were right, so what? My objection to christ is not that he may have been borrowed from other religions. The problem of the bible's validity goes much deeper than that. The 'crucified god' arguement is a trifle compared to all the other problems with xtianity's validity.

 

Finally, someone who has actually researched the issue enough to know that the "copycat claim" thesis juse isn't supported. I appreciate that you have deeper issues with Christianity, and perhaps we can discuss those issues at a later time, but at the moment, i'm trying to herd some cats here, as everyone seems to be going off on a tangent.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa - don't go putting words in my mouth. I happen to agree that the 'crucified god' bit was plundered from the previously mentioned belief systems. My point, however, was that even if it were true that previous religions hadn't already done the crucified thing, it was a minor detail compared to all the other nonsense that xtianity believes.

 

'Straining out a gnat and swallowing an elephant' was my point, not agreeing with your assertion that no other religion had crucified dieties before jebus.

 

Also, I'm beginning to smell a rat. Can you say 'spoofer'?

[crazy-tiger]

I challenge any of you to find me evidence that another God was crucified. And I mean evidence from a valid source. Appealing to the book " 16 crucified saviours" does not count, unless the author gives valid reference from his resources. The same goes for Acharya.

First, provide us with evidence that ANY god was crucified... evidence from a valid source, of course.

 

Oh, and appealing to a book doesn't count, unless the author gives valid reference from their resources. (which throws the Bible right out the window)

 

 

 

 

 

How long should I wait?