Email From My Former Pastor

[JoeinArkansas]

Joe,

 

I had been out of the churches for about 6 years before I even started to seriously question, and decided I was a non-christian about 7 years after that.

 

One of the things that I found with every church/denomination I became involved with in my life (which was quite a few), and that was that each and every one of them said that they were the true church, they had the correct teaching and biblical interpretation, the others were all wrong.

 

You are no different from those churches I attended.

 

So what happens when you find people who agree with you, and adopt what you have to say?  I'm sure that this is not the only place you decide to  'share your understanding'.  Those people will look to you to explain to them what you have come to understand.     After a while there will be enough to form some sort of community of like-believers.    And that's how churches start.    And the Church of Joe in Arkansas will be the only one with the truth,  just like all the others 

I know the truth of Christ but I certainly don't claim to know all truth.  After Christ healed my spiritual vision so that I could understand scripture and know Him, my life and fellowship moved to Him and I came out of the harlot organizations that call themselves "church".  The carnal mind of man seeks and craves people who are like-minded so as to give validation to their beliefs.  That is one of the reasons forums like this one exist.   I have no such craving and nor does any spiritually mature Chistian.  Christ is the one who gives us peace and rest.  I know a few like-minded believers but their number is exceptional small.  We do not desire to be organized in any way.  Most of our time is not spent with each other but with Christ.  Once a person reaches that point, they no longer need to be taught by a man.  When we do fellowship with each other it is for the purpose of serving them and their needs.  Any type of organization would deminish that simple purpose.  Scripture says that teachers, pastors, etc. are no longer needed once we are spiritually mature in Christ.  It is true that the Lord has given me a measure of teaching ability but my goal when I teach is to help those persons to no longer need me because they have finally come to know Christ and have entered His rest.   A sure sign that a group of so-christians are harlot is that they are instituted and have given themselves a name.  A person who knows the true Christ will not organize and for the most part, they stay out of the public eye.  They are out there but they are unknown by this world.  But Christ knows them and they know Him.  "Many are called (orthodox christianity) but few (the Elect) are chosen".  Those few are His true church.

Joe

[BendyLine]

Cool story, bro. 

[Ravenstar]

I hate elitism

 

no, I despise it.

[Astreja]

Joe, what's this "harlot" nonsense?  I'm half expecting you to be a future headliner in one of Ex-C's regular "Preacher caught in house of ill-repute" news items.

 

As for your "teaching ability," I'm not seeing it.  At all.  All I see is Special Snowflake #2983478, presenting your oh-so-special Secret Message to an unappreciative audience.

 

Mods, can we please split Joe's posts out to the Lion's Den so that HymenaeusAlexander can have his thread back and so that we can give Joe's theology the thrashing it so rightly deserves?

[JoeinArkansas]

 

Dear NeverAgain,

Please read my other posts on this thread and you will see that I believe the scriptures are not meant to be understood by this world but only by the very few whom Christ has chosen before the world was created.   It is a closed book for everyone else.  Also, I do not "peddle" the Word of God as do the organized churches.  They not only peddle it but what they are selling is a fraud.  Back in 2005 I was freed from those churches and I had tried many.  The truth of scripture is NOTHING like what you have been taught nor what any of the organized churches teach.  The truth that I have found has truly set me free from them and her plagues.

 

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

The plaques of the harlot churches are many which include their doctrines of tithing, eternal hell, the trinity, free will, and no assurance of salvation.  In fact, they do not even know what salvation is and the purpose behind it.   It is all hidden from them. 

 

I do not think anything bad of you.  In fact, you are exactly where God wants you to be at this time.  Hell is a christian hoax and a lie from Satan.  The reason you seem to hate the church is because they are teaching the ways of Satan and not the ways of God.  God is not some monster who would ever torment someone in fire for all eternity and to make it worse, they teach that He doesn't even have a redeeming purpose for doing so.  Do you know that scripture says that God considers a harlot christian worst off than an unbeliever such as yourself?  Christ says that He finds them so repugnant that He will spew them out of His mouth.  For many of them, their judgment will be in wrath.  But as with all mankind, our judgment is limited to correcting us and teaching us His true righteousness and not the wickedness that comes from the harlot churches. 

 

Concerning your last paragraph on the church, I agree with most of what you said, especially "They've caused a LOT of damage & I for one refuse to be held hostage by those fear tactics anymore."

 

You have done well to have broken out from their plagues but you have yet to find the true Christ.  The God I know will someday will come to you, not because you have done anything worthy of Him coming to you but merely because He loves you and is not willing to let you perish.   He is the Savior and He is the One who does the saving.  You can do nothing to save youself.  And that is why Christ came to the earth in the first place and will someday He will come to you personally.

Joe

Hi Joe,

 

You sound exactly like people who are still in the bible cult I escaped from. Seriously I have heard it all before. They said exactly what you are saying as far as

"the scriptures are not meant to be understood by this world but only by the very few whom Christ has chosen before the world was created....It is a closed book for everyone else"

I also heard the same thing as you have written, "the truth of scripture is NOTHING like what you have been taught nor what any of the organized churches teach"

Also the bible verse you quoted was the EXACT verse my xpastor quoted to get people to come out of the christian churches they had been in ...to coerce them to join his little humble cult church.

 

I know you seem sincere Joe, but seriously I was NOT in a church that in any way was like the "organized church"...hell, we didn't even own a church building...to this day they still rent an American Legion hall for the sunday sermons.

The pastor also claimed & still claims to be able to discern the "truth^tm" of scripture because ....."all of those other churches are false churches & he's imparting the truth that other churches can't impart because they are

not spiritually discerned".  In other words Joe,  he is saying what you & thousands of religious sects are saying, he has the truth & those other luke warm churches & christians are deceived.

 

Do you see a pattern Joe? I understand how it is to feel that you have found this "truth", I really do.  But in time you will see it's just a religious high. Not meaning to be mean, but really people can & do get addicted to listening to sermons, hell I know people who LIVE to hear the pastor preach. They don't have one original thought for themselves...all they ever do is quote the pastor on this or that. I don't think God wants us to be clones of the pastor, but that happens quite often.

 

You know I was told by the pastor & "true believers" that there were certain books I shouldn't read...movies I shouldn't watch....& realize now that is because that pastor had no ground to stand on & was terrified that someone actually might begin to think for themselves & watching a good movie can get a person to seeing things differently. You see I believe the TRUTH is able to withstand contradiction, doubt, HONEST research, but you see, that is what many -if not all bible groups do not allow. Any group that restricts you from getting information from outside of it has something to hide.

 

Does your group allow you to read forbidden books or to watch movies that cut against the grain of the doctrine you believe?

 

I do not believe in any god who would communicate to humans using a book like the bible that has caused terrific harm to humanity. The bible was used to justify the killing of the Native American population, the bible was used to enslave people who were different from the christian, the bible has built walls between peoples, when a GOOD God would try to build bridges. The bible causes an US vs Them mentality making anyone who doesn't "believe" like them ...the enemy. People still commit murder & all sorts of crimes in the holy name of the bible god.  If God wrote a book to cause that kind of destruction, he is a most cruel god, especially if god is all knowing, he would have KNOWN that his

book would cause all of that harm & did nothing.

 

Joe, do you believe that slavery, beating & abusing other people because the bible considers them less than human- righteous? Is it right to force a woman to marry a man that raped her?

All of those atrocities plus more are A-OK with the bible god no matter how you try to "spiritualize" it, it is in THE BOOK.

 

How could a good god supposedly author a book that causes all kinds of terror, misery, torment, pain & suffering as the bible has caused & continues to inflict on mankind? No good god would. Certainly the bible was written

by primitive men during a time where they had nothing better to do but to find ways to assert themselves over people using fear & superstitions & judge people. That's what I see. I've been down that road & have weighed the bible & it's god in the balance and found them wanting. I'm done with it & want nothing to do with anything bible or christian. Not that I think Christians/believers are all horrible people, but I do see them as lemmings, who for whatever

reason, choose to not think for themselves.

 

Joe, I found that humanity, with all of it's flaws & weaknesses still has more compassion, mercy & justice than the god of the bible & many of his "ministers". I hope that someday you will muster the courage to search out information outside of what you are being taught.   When that day comes, try this great article for starters because if you do have "the truth", then it should be able to withstand a differing opinion.

Link to article:  http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/why_i_am_agnostic.html

 

But just for the record I don't believe in the bible, I don't & will never again believe in Jesus. I do hope, as I mentioned before that you someday will be able to free yourself from the constraints of bible religion.

It is possible to free yourself from it's tentacles.

Peace.

Please read my short response to "Annier".   The churches of this world DO NOT represent Christ even though they claim to do so.  They are all harlot and Christ considers them worse the most unbelievers.  They will someday have to give an accounting to Christ and Christ will send them away and say that He never knew them.  I used to be in that group of so-called christians.  I no longer am.  I have no pastor or teachers or any group of any kind.  If I did, then I would be just like you claim I am.  I want nothing from anyone except for maybe the opportunity to serve them and show them the true Christ.  All the violence and murder you blame on Christ is misdirected.  You should be blaming the harlot church and Satan.  The harlot churches serve Satan who masquerades has Christ.  All you have ever know about Christ should actually be placed upon Satan.  It is no wonder you want nothing to do with orthodox christianty. 

 

As for all the evil in the world, God does say that He is responsible for it.  He made mankind carnal and spiritually weak.  He made us to be sinning machines, evil to the core.  He wants us to experience evil both on the giving end and the receiving end of it.  He uses it to humble us and to teach us.  God is responsible for it because He created us in the state we are.  But He loves us too much to let us stay that way.  That is why He held Himself accountable for it and paid the price of death himself.  He is now in the process of changing it within select individuals who will make up His church.  Later He will change it within the rest of mankind.  His purpose for all this tribulation we must endure is so that we can be made in His image.  We must know what evil is so that we can know what good is.  Someday you will understand and be accepting of it.  But until that day, please don't place me in with orthodox christianity.   I have nothing to do with them and their false teachings.   All that you said about them in your post is true.  I am not here to defend the wickedness.  I am here to guide people away from it so that they too can experience peace and rest in the true Christ.

Joe

[Annier]

When we do fellowship with each other it is for the purpose of serving them and their needs

That takes 'organisation'  ...you know each other and you get together.  Just like a 'church' you meett for spiritual support.

 

It is true that the Lord has given me a measure of teaching ability but my goal when I teach is to help those persons to no longer need me.......(etc.etc)

Isn't that what pastors etc claim also

 

A person who knows the true Christ will not organize and for the most part, they stay out of the public eye.

Well, you are making yourself extremely visible here.

 

 

 

 

You're full of it, Joe

[mymistake]

. . . harlot . . .

 

Please stop using that word.  It's backward, barbaric and sexist.  Your deeds are evil. 

 

The carnal mind of man seeks and craves people who are like-minded so as to give validation to their beliefs.  That is one of the reasons forums like this one exist.  

 

Then why are you here?

 

 

Most of our time is not spent with each other but with Christ.  Once a person reaches that point, they no longer need to be taught by a man. 

 

You are delusional.

 

 

 

 Scripture says . . .

 

Everything.  You can find a Bible verse that supports any idea you wish.  That is how much the Bible disagrees with itself.  You can use it to support genocide or prosperity gospel.  It's a sign of poor writing quality.

 

 

 A person who knows the true Christ will not organize and for the most part, they stay out of the public eye.  They are out there but they are unknown by this world.  But Christ knows them and they know Him. 

 

Nobody knows the "true Christ" because you can't know what doesn't exist.  It's your imagination.

[Astreja]

 

I am not here to defend the wickedness.  I am here to guide people away from it so that they too can experience peace and rest in the true Christ.

Joe

Then you lied when you said you weren't here to recruit or proselytize.

 

And I don't think you're going to find many people here who believe in "the true Christ."  What part of EX-CHRISTIAN do you not understand, Joe?

[JoeinArkansas]

Joe, I reject your theology unconditionally, and I reject your make-believe god who will allegedly save everyone at a mythical "later" but turns a blind eye to the suffering that occurs in the real world, right here and right now.  A god that can't keep "Satan," its own former second-in-command angel, from running amok on a heavily populated planet isn't someone I would trust to clean My cats' litter boxes.

 

 

Please don't waste any more of your life telling yourself and other people silly stories and longing for a heaven you will never see. We'll be here for you when your faith falls to ruin, but in the meantime we can do without the "I know the True Christ™ and you don't, neener neener neener" BS.

You really don't know what you are saying.  Satan was purposefully created by God to be evil and to bring that evil into this world.  He was never God's "second in command".   That is a false teaching from the harlot church.  Satan never does anything a part from God's will.  Not only does God use Satan in this world now but Satan will also be used in the final age on the new earth to continue his work of evil and deceit.  This world we live in is carnal and evil and it is that way by God's direction so that His great and glorious purpose of creating children can be realized.

 

Also, there is no heaven as the churches teach.  Scripturally, we will be in heaven when we are fully made in His image.  It is not a location.  Much of scripture is written with physcial symbols which represent the spiritual.  The scriptures are spiritual and it takes spiritual understanding to know their meaning.  Mankind was made carnally minded and has no ability to understand them.  If Christ did not come to us individually and give us the ability to understand them, all mankind would be lost.  But He as promised that no one will be lost and that He will change us all.  Until you are changed, you cannot understand scripture.

Joe

[JoeinArkansas]

If I was a drug addict, lets say crack (because that seems to be the funniest one, when it comes to jokes) and my drug dealer for many years came by to sell some to me.

Lets say I told him, I wasn't going to buy from him that I was done - he wouldn't handle that well. He would handle it even worse if I was helping him sell his horrible life ruining product.

Only that would be more simple, I'd get a threat, or maybe even get a gun pointed at me, straight and to the point.

However your pastor is making desperate attempt; how do I say this nicely? I know? He's trying to have mental intercourse with you. One last attempt to warp your mind, to keep his delusion in tact and healthy.

That's pretty much how I see what happened to you, with the church.

Very impressed you and your wife got out; in my experience not many do.

You are comments are correct about the harlot church system.  One will never find the true Christ in them. 

Joe

[mymistake]

. . .  harlot . . . .

 

Keep your opinions to yourself Asshat.  You belong in the Dark Ages when people like you were burning innocent people to death over rumors.

 

 

 If Christ did not come . . .

 

What a coincidence.  Christ did not come.

[mymistake]

Your comments are correct about the harlot that is my mouth.  One will never find the true Christ in me. 

 

Oh Joe, say it isn't so.

[Astreja]

Satan was purposefully created by God to be evil and to bring that evil into this world...

 

...If Christ did not come to us individually and give us the ability to understand them, all mankind would be lost.  But He as promised that no one will be lost and that He will change us all.  Until you are changed, you cannot understand scripture.

 

I do not consent to be "changed" by your imaginary f[r]iend, a mythological son-of-a-bitch that deliberately creates evil and suffering and after doing so, strips away humans' free will by tinkering with their brains, thereby rendering all that suffering fucking meaningless.

 

May you lose your faith and never regain it.

[Annier]

Re-reading the first post, it is obvious that HymenaeusAlexander started this thread seeking support in dealing with a situation arising out of his de-conversion.

 

That is what this site is for.

 

Then this wanker, Joe, decides to take advantage of the concern of HymenaeusAlexander by hijacking the thread to sprout his own nonsense. Hardly the act of a "Christ-filled" person.

 

"Shyte-filled" is more like it, imo.

[JoeinArkansas]

Joe, I really want to know what you know!

 

hmmm... when it comes to scripture I would first have to be convinced of it's veracity. This is a tall order considering the history of scripture. If you could demonstrate that it is supernaturally inspired that would be a start. So far even the smart guys (you know scholars of ancient languages, history, bible scholars, etc..) haven't been able to do so. If you can - that would be great.

 

Then you would have to explain the inconsistencies in the texts, and the immorality of many of the passages.

 

AND if you have access to texts I haven't seen I would love to see them, please share.

 

Jesus... another iffy proposition. There may have been such a person, but the evidence is scant at best... the claims of supernatural events are no more than hearsay. If you could prove his existence, and the claims of miracles, etc... we may have some ground for discussion.

 

Then... you would have to reconcile science with the claims in the Bible...

 

BUT! If this god is real and interacts with the world then this shouldn't be too hard. Really, it should be apparent to all.

 

(However, I think this particular discussion should probably be moved to the Lion's Den... I could be wrong though.)

I am sure I cannot convince you of anything.  The scriptures are written in words that are "spirit".  Unless Christ gives you the ability to understand them, you will not - even if you spend you entire life studying them.  God wrote them that way so that the world will not know Him until He is ready to reveal Himself to you.  He is not trying to draw every person in the world to Him at this time.  The harlot church may be trying but Christ is not.  For now, He is only bringing in the harvest of the first fruits.  When your turn comes, He will change your understanding and your beliefs will fall.  Much is written about this event that will occur within each person.  It will be a day of great anguish with earthquakes, lightnings and thunders and it will all be happening between your ears.  Your worlds will fall much to your distress.

Joe

[Astreja]

Re-reading the first post, it is obvious that HymenaeusAlexander started this thread seeking support in dealing with a situation arising out of his de-conversion.

 

That is what this site is for.

 

Then this wanker, Joe, decides to take advantage of the concern of HymenaeusAlexander by hijacking the thread to sprout his own nonsense. Hardly the act of a "Christ-filled" person.

 

"Shyte-filled" is more like it, imo.

 

Yup, Joe's "fruits of the spirit" are rotten and mouldy.  If Jesus ever had existed, this would be his cue to come stomping in with "I never knew you."

[JoeinArkansas]

I'm trying to understand why you are here, exactly. If not to convert(the place for that is the lion's den) then what is it you want us to get from what you say. Please do not assume that I am affiliated in any way with a church or became disenchanted with any particular faith.

 

I have a PhD in comparative religion and doing the work and research to obtain that made me realize just how much Christianity has borrowed from older faiths, like Hinduism, etc and from similar myths to the Jesus myth (ie: Attis, etc).  As far as my Former affiliation with the Episcopal Church, I thought they were and are a progressive denomination that cares about social justice and I still think they do good work. Of course they are not fundamentalist or evangelical.

 

But I did not lose enchantment with my church. I did realize that Christianity is simply mythology.

TBM

I have explained my purpose in a couple of my posts.  Someday, Christ will come to you personally and remove all your doubts about Him.  He has promised that He will come to all mankind in "due time".  He has this age plus two more before His work will be finished.

Joe

[mymistake]

I hope the mods show this sexist pig the door.

[Astreja]

(Duplicate -- Mods, please delete.)

[Astreja]

Joe, Christ isn't coming. If he ever lived, he's now dead as a doornail and just a bunch of bone shards in a mass grave under modern-day Jerusalem, perhaps muddled up with the aggregate under a skyscraper foundation.

 

The Jesus that you have been experiencing is merely your imagination working overtime.  There is nothing on the other end of the line, so put down that silly tin can and string.

 

And if I hear the word 'harlot' from you even once more, I happen to have a Clue-By-Four™ near at hand and I *do* know how to use it.

[JoeinArkansas]

Jose

Dear Jose,

 

You said:

Please explain the following term – “spiritual vision.”

 

Assuming that your answer to my request for definition makes some kind of sense, please explain how you knew you needed new spiritual glasses or spiritual laser-corrective surgery.

 

Further, please provide evidence that it was Yeshua bar Yosef/ Yeshua bar Yahweh and not Horus, Mithras, Krivda, Odin, Asclepius, or one of the other 60,000 named gods and goddesses who healed you.

 

Spiritual vision is the ability to see and understand God.  When a person is spiritually blind from birth, which all mankind is, we do not know that we are blind.  But once you are healed, you can then see that you were blind.  It was the same for me.  Once you can "see" then you can know who it is that healed you.  

 

You said:

In what way? Provide an example of the “harlot church’s” interpretation of a piece of scripture and your own. There should be a clear difference in your interpretations.

 

I gave a very simple illustration of it in one of my posts concerning "swords".   It was:

 

Luke 22:36-38  Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.  For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.  And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

 

Earlier in scripture Christ said to love your enemies and to do good to them.  It appears now that He is contradicting Himself by telling his apostles to carry a sword.  But there is no contradiction here.  Christ said that his words are "spirit".  EVERYTHING He taught must be spiritually understood.  Later in the writings of Paul, we find out that the Word of God is symbolized by the sword and that we are to have two or three witnesses to prove a truth.  Here in Luke ch. 22, Christ was not telling his apostles to literally carry a sword.  He was telling them to carry with them the Word of God and that a double witness of scripture is sufficient to prove a truth.  I have met quite a few "christians" in the harlot church who say that Luke 22:36-38 is proof that Christ okays our right to self defense.  That is not true.  We are to NEVER return evil for evil.

 

This is a very simple example.  Some in the harlot do understand and believe the truth of this scripture but most do not.  Most of scripture is much more difficult to understand.

 

You said:

How is this “hidden knowledge” different from the “esoteric mysteries” of organized magickal practice?

 

All the common doctrines of orthodox christianty is untrue.  There are some elements of truth in some of their doctrines but most are completely untrue.  A short list of false doctrines are their teachings on tithing, salvation, trinity, free will, life after death, all endtime and rapture teachings, etc. etc.

 

Christ spoke a parable about the harlot church that says the same thing:

 

Matt 13:33  Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

 

The woman is the church, the leaven is false teachings and the three measures of meal is the Word of God.  Christ is the true bread from heaven but the bread that the harlot church feeds her "converts" is leavened and completely so.  Very simple but few understand it and believe it.

 

You said:

It’s been 2000 years of “any day now.” We can safely shelve this as “not anytime soon.”

Please resolve the direct contradiction between reality and the scriptures regarding Yeshua’s promise in Matthew 16:28.

 

The second coming of Christ that is "any day now" is spiritual in nature (it happens between your ears).  He has been coming to His Elect ever since the time of the apostles.  Matthew ch. 24 teaches this second coming as does many other scriptures.  The carnally minded christians are looking ONLY for the visible second coming to the world.   Most scriptures that teach on the second coming of Christ are not speaking of this visible second coming that will occur at the end of this age.  Those scriptures are speaking of the spiritual second coming to the individual.  That second coming IS "at hand" or "before this generation passes away".   At the age of 44, I experienced this second coming of Christ to me.  When He comes to an individual, He gives them the latter rain (second measure of the Holy Spirit) and heals their spiritual vision.  Mark 8:21-25 speaks of the TWO comings of Christ to the individual.  The first time He comes, you receive the early rain (a small measure of the Holy Spirit) but He leaves you spiritually near-sighted (still referred to as being blind) and you have no ability to know Him through scripture.  Satan comes and deceives you into believing that he is Christ and you willingly enter His church (orthodox christianity).   For His Elect, He shortens their days in the harlot (wilderness) by coming to them a second time to fully heal their vision.  As with me, once you can "see", you realize that you have been deceived by Satan and you immediately flee out of the harlot and start seeking to follow the true Christ.  Much is written on this event but those verses are greatly misunderstood.  Matt 24 contains some of them.    

 

You said:

Is Genesis a literal story according to your hidden knowledge of scripture? Or would the story of Cain and Abel be an metaphor for the difference between the “harlot church” and “Christ’s elect?”

If Genesis is a literal story, please use your special knowledge of scripture to explain why the Jewish creation story is true and the dozens of others from cultures all over the middle east (with exactly the same archetypical characters and events), are false.

 

Please specifically resolve the similarities between the Enuma Elish and Genesis. Which one is real? Why?

 

All the "stories" from the Old Teatament literally happened but the value of those stories comes from spiritually understanding them.  Able is a "type" of Elect but he was not one of the Elect.  Cain is a type of a carnal christian but He too was not literally a carnal christian.  The Old Testament stories are true stories that are "types and shadows" of things to come later.  That is why some of the stories are so detailed.  The writers of the stories did not understand their meaning.  They thought that they were merely recording history.  Those "stories" were written only for God's Elect and many of them teach the same things over and over again.  The story of Lot fleeing from Sodom is a "type" of the seconding coming of Christ to the individual.  FYI, in scripture a spiritual day represents a long period of time.   The creation days are not 24 hour days.  I'm sure the length of time to create the heavens and the earth are more in line with what modern science believes.  Also, the Noah's flood was only regional and not world wide.  The translations are very poor. 

 

I can't prove that the Genesis stories are true to you.  I believe them because I believe God.  If you understood the spiritual meaning of all the stories, then you would know that man could not have written them unless they were inspired by God to do so. 

 

As for your last question, I have no idea what Enuma Elish is.  I am NOT a scholar.  Most of God's Elect are not.  I do believe that Genesis is true because the spiritual types that are shown there are repeated over and over again throughout scripture.

 

You said:

By definition, I am a blasphemer, adulterer, thief, sexual deviant, and murderer. If chosen by Christ before birth, will I be saved no matter how many people I lead away from him or whose lives I destroy?

 

Paul considered himself the chief sinner.   He was responsible for murdering members of the early church.  Your sins are not worse than his.  The quantity or quality of the sins you commit will not stop Christ from changing you into a sinless man.  His blood covers your all the sins you will ever commit and then He will change you from the inside out so that you will not sin ever again.  But that change does not take place completely until you are resurrected and given the full measure of God's Spirit.  Even Adolf Hitler will be saved someday.  The plan is layed out in scripture for those who have the spiritual vision to see it.  God declares that He is not willing that anyone should be lost.

 

You said:

Please provide biblical support of predestination.

 

Here are a few verses:

 

Eph 1:11   In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

Eph 1:4-5  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

John 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

Jose, I am sure we are getting off subject on this thread plus I don't believe the Lord has made anyone ready to receive His truth at this time.  Because of this, I will not post any further on this thread.  I apologize to anyone who asked a question that I didn't answer.  If the Lord leads me to comment further on this forum, I will try to do so in the Lion's den since their are people who believe I have trying to convert them back into the church system.  That's not true but to satisfy them, I will try to stay in the Lion's den.  If you Jose, have any real interest in learning more, please email me you questions.  Otherwise, thank you for your time and for your questions.

Joe

[midniterider]

 

 

Dear NeverAgain,

Please read my other posts on this thread and you will see that I believe the scriptures are not meant to be understood by this world but only by the very few whom Christ has chosen before the world was created.   It is a closed book for everyone else.  Also, I do not "peddle" the Word of God as do the organized churches.  They not only peddle it but what they are selling is a fraud.  Back in 2005 I was freed from those churches and I had tried many.  The truth of scripture is NOTHING like what you have been taught nor what any of the organized churches teach.  The truth that I have found has truly set me free from them and her plagues.

 

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

The plaques of the harlot churches are many which include their doctrines of tithing, eternal hell, the trinity, free will, and no assurance of salvation.  In fact, they do not even know what salvation is and the purpose behind it.   It is all hidden from them. 

 

I do not think anything bad of you.  In fact, you are exactly where God wants you to be at this time.  Hell is a christian hoax and a lie from Satan.  The reason you seem to hate the church is because they are teaching the ways of Satan and not the ways of God.  God is not some monster who would ever torment someone in fire for all eternity and to make it worse, they teach that He doesn't even have a redeeming purpose for doing so.  Do you know that scripture says that God considers a harlot christian worst off than an unbeliever such as yourself?  Christ says that He finds them so repugnant that He will spew them out of His mouth.  For many of them, their judgment will be in wrath.  But as with all mankind, our judgment is limited to correcting us and teaching us His true righteousness and not the wickedness that comes from the harlot churches. 

 

Concerning your last paragraph on the church, I agree with most of what you said, especially "They've caused a LOT of damage & I for one refuse to be held hostage by those fear tactics anymore."

 

You have done well to have broken out from their plagues but you have yet to find the true Christ.  The God I know will someday will come to you, not because you have done anything worthy of Him coming to you but merely because He loves you and is not willing to let you perish.   He is the Savior and He is the One who does the saving.  You can do nothing to save youself.  And that is why Christ came to the earth in the first place and will someday He will come to you personally.

Joe

Hi Joe,

 

You sound exactly like people who are still in the bible cult I escaped from. Seriously I have heard it all before. They said exactly what you are saying as far as

"the scriptures are not meant to be understood by this world but only by the very few whom Christ has chosen before the world was created....It is a closed book for everyone else"

I also heard the same thing as you have written, "the truth of scripture is NOTHING like what you have been taught nor what any of the organized churches teach"

Also the bible verse you quoted was the EXACT verse my xpastor quoted to get people to come out of the christian churches they had been in ...to coerce them to join his little humble cult church.

 

I know you seem sincere Joe, but seriously I was NOT in a church that in any way was like the "organized church"...hell, we didn't even own a church building...to this day they still rent an American Legion hall for the sunday sermons.

The pastor also claimed & still claims to be able to discern the "truth^tm" of scripture because ....."all of those other churches are false churches & he's imparting the truth that other churches can't impart because they are

not spiritually discerned".  In other words Joe,  he is saying what you & thousands of religious sects are saying, he has the truth & those other luke warm churches & christians are deceived.

 

Do you see a pattern Joe? I understand how it is to feel that you have found this "truth", I really do.  But in time you will see it's just a religious high. Not meaning to be mean, but really people can & do get addicted to listening to sermons, hell I know people who LIVE to hear the pastor preach. They don't have one original thought for themselves...all they ever do is quote the pastor on this or that. I don't think God wants us to be clones of the pastor, but that happens quite often.

 

You know I was told by the pastor & "true believers" that there were certain books I shouldn't read...movies I shouldn't watch....& realize now that is because that pastor had no ground to stand on & was terrified that someone actually might begin to think for themselves & watching a good movie can get a person to seeing things differently. You see I believe the TRUTH is able to withstand contradiction, doubt, HONEST research, but you see, that is what many -if not all bible groups do not allow. Any group that restricts you from getting information from outside of it has something to hide.

 

Does your group allow you to read forbidden books or to watch movies that cut against the grain of the doctrine you believe?

 

I do not believe in any god who would communicate to humans using a book like the bible that has caused terrific harm to humanity. The bible was used to justify the killing of the Native American population, the bible was used to enslave people who were different from the christian, the bible has built walls between peoples, when a GOOD God would try to build bridges. The bible causes an US vs Them mentality making anyone who doesn't "believe" like them ...the enemy. People still commit murder & all sorts of crimes in the holy name of the bible god.  If God wrote a book to cause that kind of destruction, he is a most cruel god, especially if god is all knowing, he would have KNOWN that his

book would cause all of that harm & did nothing.

 

Joe, do you believe that slavery, beating & abusing other people because the bible considers them less than human- righteous? Is it right to force a woman to marry a man that raped her?

All of those atrocities plus more are A-OK with the bible god no matter how you try to "spiritualize" it, it is in THE BOOK.

 

How could a good god supposedly author a book that causes all kinds of terror, misery, torment, pain & suffering as the bible has caused & continues to inflict on mankind? No good god would. Certainly the bible was written

by primitive men during a time where they had nothing better to do but to find ways to assert themselves over people using fear & superstitions & judge people. That's what I see. I've been down that road & have weighed the bible & it's god in the balance and found them wanting. I'm done with it & want nothing to do with anything bible or christian. Not that I think Christians/believers are all horrible people, but I do see them as lemmings, who for whatever

reason, choose to not think for themselves.

 

Joe, I found that humanity, with all of it's flaws & weaknesses still has more compassion, mercy & justice than the god of the bible & many of his "ministers". I hope that someday you will muster the courage to search out information outside of what you are being taught.   When that day comes, try this great article for starters because if you do have "the truth", then it should be able to withstand a differing opinion.

Link to article:  http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/why_i_am_agnostic.html

 

But just for the record I don't believe in the bible, I don't & will never again believe in Jesus. I do hope, as I mentioned before that you someday will be able to free yourself from the constraints of bible religion.

It is possible to free yourself from it's tentacles.

Peace.

Please read my short response to "Annier".   The churches of this world DO NOT represent Christ even though they claim to do so.  They are all harlot and Christ considers them worse the most unbelievers.  They will someday have to give an accounting to Christ and Christ will send them away and say that He never knew them.  I used to be in that group of so-called christians.  I no longer am.  I have no pastor or teachers or any group of any kind.  If I did, then I would be just like you claim I am.  I want nothing from anyone except for maybe the opportunity to serve them and show them the true Christ.  All the violence and murder you blame on Christ is misdirected.  You should be blaming the harlot church and Satan.  The harlot churches serve Satan who masquerades has Christ.  All you have ever know about Christ should actually be placed upon Satan.  It is no wonder you want nothing to do with orthodox christianty. 

 

As for all the evil in the world, God does say that He is responsible for it.  He made mankind carnal and spiritually weak.  He made us to be sinning machines, evil to the core.  He wants us to experience evil both on the giving end and the receiving end of it.  He uses it to humble us and to teach us.  God is responsible for it because He created us in the state we are.  But He loves us too much to let us stay that way.  That is why He held Himself accountable for it and paid the price of death himself.  He is now in the process of changing it within select individuals who will make up His church.  Later He will change it within the rest of mankind.  His purpose for all this tribulation we must endure is so that we can be made in His image.  We must know what evil is so that we can know what good is.  Someday you will understand and be accepting of it.  But until that day, please don't place me in with orthodox christianity.   I have nothing to do with them and their false teachings.   All that you said about them in your post is true.  I am not here to defend the wickedness.  I am here to guide people away from it so that they too can experience peace and rest in the true Christ.

Joe

 

Yep, another orthodox christian.

[owen652]

What a coincidence that none of The Elect are scholars.

[Ravenstar]

 

Joe, I really want to know what you know!

 

hmmm... when it comes to scripture I would first have to be convinced of it's veracity. This is a tall order considering the history of scripture. If you could demonstrate that it is supernaturally inspired that would be a start. So far even the smart guys (you know scholars of ancient languages, history, bible scholars, etc..) haven't been able to do so. If you can - that would be great.

 

Then you would have to explain the inconsistencies in the texts, and the immorality of many of the passages.

 

AND if you have access to texts I haven't seen I would love to see them, please share.

 

Jesus... another iffy proposition. There may have been such a person, but the evidence is scant at best... the claims of supernatural events are no more than hearsay. If you could prove his existence, and the claims of miracles, etc... we may have some ground for discussion.

 

Then... you would have to reconcile science with the claims in the Bible...

 

BUT! If this god is real and interacts with the world then this shouldn't be too hard. Really, it should be apparent to all.

 

(However, I think this particular discussion should probably be moved to the Lion's Den... I could be wrong though.)

I am sure I cannot convince you of anything.  The scriptures are written in words that are "spirit".  Unless Christ gives you the ability to understand them, you will not - even if you spend you entire life studying them.  God wrote them that way so that the world will not know Him until He is ready to reveal Himself to you.  He is not trying to draw every person in the world to Him at this time.  The harlot church may be trying but Christ is not.  For now, He is only bringing in the harvest of the first fruits.  When your turn comes, He will change your understanding and your beliefs will fall.  Much is written about this event that will occur within each person.  It will be a day of great anguish with earthquakes, lightnings and thunders and it will all be happening between your ears.  Your worlds will fall much to your distress.

Joe

So... since it doesn't matter whether any one else can understand this, since it's a gift from Jeebus himself... did you just come here to gloat that you have it and we don't? Should we oooooo and aaaah at how specialz you are? At your word no less? I really don't understand your purpose other than to stroke your own ego and feel superior... you can't help us understand it? (which really doesn't make any sense - if you can understand it why can't you convey that information?)

 

You do realize that this is the perfect way to remove your 'belief' from any and all reason and criticism, don't you? It's the perfect, (and oh so wrong) flawless, defense of the indefensible... and it places YOU in a position of never having to do an ounce of honest investigation, reason, self-examination, or even... taken to it's extreme, self-responsibility. It negates humanity in a way that absolutely floors me in it's self-hatred and deluded narcissism. It places YOU above everyone else on the planet...(who ever lived, mind you) no, that's not ego-centric or anything. What? And there's no evidence except your own 'spiritual' experience? Well.. you can believe anything you want - doesn't make it true. Some people are as convinced they've been abducted by aliens, or that the US Government is run by reptilian overlords, and as you are about your divine elevated understanding... hmmmmm? Not seeing the distinction here between you and these other people.

 

It is a bullshit interpretation that sets YOU up to be the special favored child of god. Really now... and what makes you so friggin' special that this god would choose YOU over everyone else to bless with his magic ability to understand scripture? That's a mighty big ego you have there... did you ever once consider that you might be wrong? That your psyche might be playing a trick on you? (it's known to do that)

 

<snark> glad you found an indefensible way to protect yourself from actually being human like the rest of the world.

 

Nope, you come across as a frightened little person who can't bear the thought that you may be just a regular guy, just one of over 7 billion mortal beings with limited time on this fragile little mudball - orbiting an unremarkable star, in the backwater of an unremarkable galaxy of billions of stars, in a universe of billions of galaxies, and even - that there may be nothing after this life (or even if there is you would just be another one of billions - equal in the eyes of any possible creator) and no omnipotent being has YOU on his short list... YOU may actually CEASE TO EXIST one day... seriously, I hope you come out of this delusion before you waste your entire life looking down on your fellow man from your lofty position instead of living life and connecting with others in any way that actually has any meaning or love in it.

[Jose]

I started a topic in the Lion's Den for Joe.

 

I don't do email discussions... Matthew 5:15.