Free Will

[mymistake]

 

TB why don't you do the gutsy thing and admit there is no logic or evidence for God/ID but you choose to take it all on faith?  That is what is really going on.

You are right it is faith, but even logic itself points me to this conclusion.

 

 

Proof please.

 

Logic is not picking your conclusion and then linking up a trail after the fact.  Logic is not using fallacies to get out of undesirable ideas. 

[TrueBeliever]

 

 

TB why don't you do the gutsy thing and admit there is no logic or evidence for God/ID but you choose to take it all on faith?  That is what is really going on.

You are right it is faith, but even logic itself points me to this conclusion.

 

 

Proof please.

 

Logic is not picking your conclusion and then linking up a trail after the fact.  Logic is not using fallacies to get out of undesirable ideas. 

 

Would you like the ontological argument, the cosmological argument, the argument from design or the moral argument. There are many others but you already know them all. It cannot be denied that these all are logical. My favorite is the cosmological argument. Which says that everything that has a beginning has a cause The universe has a beginning and therefore has a cause. IMO that cause is God.

[mymistake]

 

 

 

TB why don't you do the gutsy thing and admit there is no logic or evidence for God/ID but you choose to take it all on faith?  That is what is really going on.

You are right it is faith, but even logic itself points me to this conclusion.

 

 

Proof please.

 

Logic is not picking your conclusion and then linking up a trail after the fact.  Logic is not using fallacies to get out of undesirable ideas. 

 

Would you like the ontological argument, the cosmological argument, the argument from design or the moral argument. There are many others but you already know them all. It cannot be denied that these all are logical. My favorite is the cosmological argument. Which says that everything that has a beginning has a cause The universe has a beginning and therefore has a cause. IMO that cause is God.

 

 

So the cosmological argument is not logical.  That is what I figured.  How do we know the universe had a beginning?  Pull what you need out of thin air.  How do we know it was God?  Assume the very thing you are trying to prove.  Fallacies are not logic.

 

 

I'm sure the ontological argument, moral argument and argument from (incompetent) design will be just as bad.

 

Edit:

Let's get the next one out of the way.  We can use William Paley's argument that appeared in 1802 in Natural Theology

 

"Since watches are the products of intelligent design, and living things are like watches in having complicated mechanisms which serve a purpose (e.g., having eyeballs to enable sight), living things are probably the products of intelligent design as well."

 

See how he assumes that watches are the product of intelligent design?  They, in fact, are not.  Watches are the product of millions of hours of human trial and error.  It was exactly like evolution except that human's drive to tinker replaced the biological mechanism of mutation.  Humans kept what worked and discarded all of the many flops.  (Much like in the animal world how natural selection destroys the many flops.)  No cave dweller sat down and designed a digital watch, or a space ship, or a cure for polio.  Instead we make our technological improvements one drop at a time because humans are not intelligent enough to do any better.  If Albert Einstein had been born 200,000 years ago he might have invented a better way to make stone blades.

 

We have learned a great deal about evolution since 1802 and we now know how eyeballs evolved over time.

 

Want to extend Argument From Design into a larger scale?

 

The universe has no apparent purpose.  All that wasted space.  All that randomness.  Compared to the universe we are a tiny dot that just blinked into existence a short time ago and there is no reason for anything else to notice us.

 

 

Why are ontological argument not logical?  Try to remember that only ideas are controlled by their definitions.  real things are not.  If humans decide to redefine the word "water" as something that is not wet that will not change the nature of water.  Water will continue right along doing what the laws of physics make it do.

 

Morality comes from humans surviving as a species by working together.  We would have gone extinct if we didn't have an internal drive that put the group before the individual.  No God required.

 

So yes, I think we can deny that these arguments are logical.

[TrueBeliever]

I am sorry you feel this way. This argument is going nowhere because you are in denial the metaphysical. Therefore I must bow out. I will continue to pray for you all though. 

Farewell, 

TrueBeliever.

[Margee]

I am sorry you feel this way. This argument is going nowhere because you are in denial the metaphysical. Therefore I must bow out. I will continue to pray for you all though. 

Farewell, 

TrueBeliever.

 

Another one that couldn't take it.........  .....you should be ashamed of yourselves ex-c!!!   

 

 

 

He didn't even watch my video on Stupid design?  

[florduh]

This argument is going nowhere because you are in denial the metaphysical.

 

Now, THAT is funny!

[Deva]

 

This argument is going nowhere because you are in denial the metaphysical.

 

Now, THAT is funny!

 

Yep, I am certainly laughing, while practicing an esoteric form of Buddhism!

 

It is not known if the universe had a beginning. 

[Ravenstar]

It all comes down to that 'faith' word, doesn't it. 

 

I don't think it means what they think it means  

 

I watched your video Margee!!!  Don't feel bad  

[RipVanWinkle]

For gawd's sake, TrueBeliever, don't add to your self deception by being a pompous ass. You clearly lost the argument because of your illogical arguments and then you say you will pray for us? Pray for us

because your arguments didn't hold water? Guess what! Prayer doesn't hold water either. bill

[TheRedneckProfessor]

TrueBeliever, didn't st. paul encourage timothy to "avoid vain arguments"?  I warned you several days ago that you were dealing with people who already knew every argument that you could use, and that many of us know them even better than you do.  I've been sitting back for the past several days, watching you slam yourself repeatedly against walls of brick and steel, waiting for that "a-ha" moment when you would finally realize the truth: you are not doing any good here.  It's not because you are not presenting your arguments well enough; in truth, you are much more lucid and cordial than many believers who come here.  Unfortunately, as I previously stated, most people here have heard every argument you can present and observed every scrap of "evidence" you can't provide, and we will simply not be taken in again by the arguments that once bound us, for we have weighed them and found them wanting.  

 

This brings us to the question of your motivation here.  Is it your intention to attempt to convert someone?  Win a gold star in your crown?  Firstly, what's the point in working toward a gem-laden crown that ultimately you will simply toss at the feet of jesus?  Secondly, you have yourself said you weren't here to try to convert (were ya lyin'?).  Lastly, by now you have to have seen how futile any attempt at conversion would be.

 

Or is it your intention here to actually do something good for the people around you?  I come to this site because I remember what it was like to be a christian.  I remember the fear, the grief, the shame and guilt.  I remember the tearful confessions and the sleepless nights and I want to help those still suffering and those attempting to recover, just as every AA meeting begins with a moment of silence for "the still suffering alcoholic."  Do you want to do good also?  Is that your intention?  If so, then stop trying to use christian versions of logic, argument and reason, and start using human versions of your ears to listen to the new-comers who have sincere questions and doubts about the religion you so ardently defend with your "vain arguments".  Perhaps if you could understand their doubts and questions, it might bring you a little closer to understanding your own. 

[pawn]

The delusion is strong with this one (TB)!

[midniterider]

 

I am sorry you feel this way. This argument is going nowhere because you are in denial the metaphysical. Therefore I must bow out. I will continue to pray for you all though. 

Farewell, 

TrueBeliever.

 

Another one that couldn't take it.........  .....you should be ashamed of yourselves ex-c!!!   

 

 

 

He didn't even watch my video on Stupid design?  

 

 

Our wills are more powerful than his prayers, apparently. That was a good video. :-)

[midniterider]

How much time will he be devoting to prayer for us?

[pawn]

How much time will he be devoting to prayer for us?

It really doesn't matter, since he is praying to an impotent imaginary pansy-god who can't even perform miracles properly outside of the bible-times. A god who let's innocent children die every day of horrible malnutrition and disease, a god who gives millions of people cancer every year and sits idly by while they die...

 

A God who doesn't exist.

[RipVanWinkle]

"I do not have anything against science. Science is important, but nothing in this physical world is with out its flaws." TrueBeliever

 

If god created the physical world, why would there be flaws? bill

[duderonomy]

"I do not have anything against science. Science is important, but nothing in this physical world is with out its flaws." TrueBeliever

 

If god created the physical world, why would there be flaws? bill

 

Duh!!!

 

When God created the world, it was good. He said so. The flaws are the fault of humans and the Devil. This is clearly shown in the Good Book.

 

From this Good Book, also known as the Bible, we can clearly glean that God is not the only creator in this universe.

 

Consider yourself blessed, bill, that a True Believer is praying for you.

In fact it is already starting to work on you, bill. Who are you to boast before God, that you understand that I am right? Am I wrong? Didn't True Believer say he was praying for all of us?

 

Bwahahahahahahaha!! That'll be 10% please. From the gross, not the net.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

TB is Christian without being religious?  He's sucking off of the corporate teat. Sooner or later the master of the house will demand to know what he has done with his talents. I hope for his sake he doesn't point to his apologetic here so far.

[mymistake]

 

"I do not have anything against science. Science is important, but nothing in this physical world is with out its flaws." TrueBeliever

 

If god created the physical world, why would there be flaws? bill

 

Duh!!!

 

When God created the world, it was good. He said so. The flaws are the fault of humans and the Devil. This is clearly shown in the Good Book.

 

From this Good Book, also known as the Bible, we can clearly glean that God is not the only creator in this universe.

 

 

Of course!

 

God created a flat Earth, supported by pillars and covered by a dome that contained the stars, moon and sun - just like the Bible says.

 

Then Satan turned the Earth round, turned the dome into the vacuum of space and sent the moon and sun to their present location and scattered the stars lightyears away, some of them billions of lightyears away.  And Satan did all of this to confuse people so they would think the Bible is a fairy tale.

 

It all makes sense now!   Crazy like batshit sense . . .

[duderonomy]

 

 

"I do not have anything against science. Science is important, but nothing in this physical world is with out its flaws." TrueBeliever

 

If god created the physical world, why would there be flaws? bill

 

Duh!!!

 

When God created the world, it was good. He said so. The flaws are the fault of humans and the Devil. This is clearly shown in the Good Book.

 

From this Good Book, also known as the Bible, we can clearly glean that God is not the only creator in this universe.

 

 

Of course!

 

God created a flat Earth, supported by pillars and covered by a dome that contained the stars, moon and sun - just like the Bible says.

 

Then Satan turned the Earth round, turned the dome into the vacuum of space and sent the moon and sun to their present location and scattered the stars lightyears away, some of them billions of lightyears away.  And Satan did all of this to confuse people so they would think the Bible is a fairy tale.

 

It all makes sense now!   Crazy like batshit sense . . .

 

 

Brother MM, the sun and the stars were all in place when God spoke them into place. The Devil had nothing to do with that. It was all good back then.

 

I perceive that you are an unbeliever. You will make mistakes as will I, but with a True Believer praying for us, we can rest in the peace that all will be revealed to us when we are dead.

 

.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

"I do not have anything against science. Science is important, but nothing in this physical world is with out its flaws." TrueBeliever

 

If god created the physical world, why would there be flaws? bill

 

Duh!!!

 

When God created the world, it was good. He said so. The flaws are the fault of humans and the Devil. This is clearly shown in the Good Book.

 

From this Good Book, also known as the Bible, we can clearly glean that God is not the only creator in this universe.

 

 

Of course!

 

God created a flat Earth, supported by pillars and covered by a dome that contained the stars, moon and sun - just like the Bible says.

 

Then Satan turned the Earth round, turned the dome into the vacuum of space and sent the moon and sun to their present location and scattered the stars lightyears away, some of them billions of lightyears away.  And Satan did all of this to confuse people so they would think the Bible is a fairy tale.

 

It all makes sense now!   Crazy like batshit sense . . .

 

Yes, I'm piling on you too, mymistake, because of your lies about the Lord.  He created the earth with built in "age" and the universe with an appearance of no dome etc. to confound the wise.  I know because a traveling evangelist told us that geological formations were created by God with "built in age" to trip up people who glory in the wisdom of man. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

"I do not have anything against science. Science is important, but nothing in this physical world is with out its flaws." TrueBeliever

 

If god created the physical world, why would there be flaws? bill

 

Duh!!!

 

When God created the world, it was good. He said so. The flaws are the fault of humans and the Devil. This is clearly shown in the Good Book.

 

From this Good Book, also known as the Bible, we can clearly glean that God is not the only creator in this universe.

 

 

Of course!

 

God created a flat Earth, supported by pillars and covered by a dome that contained the stars, moon and sun - just like the Bible says.

 

Then Satan turned the Earth round, turned the dome into the vacuum of space and sent the moon and sun to their present location and scattered the stars lightyears away, some of them billions of lightyears away.  And Satan did all of this to confuse people so they would think the Bible is a fairy tale.

 

It all makes sense now!   Crazy like batshit sense . . .

 

Yes, I'm piling on you too, mymistake, because of your lies about the Lord.  He created the earth with built in "age" and the universe with an appearance of no dome etc. to confound the wise.  I know because a traveling evangelist told us that geological formations were created by God with "built in age" to trip up people who glory in the wisdom of man. 

 

 

I'm on your case too, MM! 

 

Didn't you know that Texaco, ExxonMobil and every other oil (and coal and gas) company has swallowed God's "built-in-age" illusion... hook, line and sinker? 

They deludedly think that these fossil fuels take... millions ...of years to form - but scripture tells the truth! 

Here!  Read and believe...

 

http://creation.com/coal-memorial-to-the-flood  Coal takes only WEEKS to form, not millions of years!

http://www.creationevidence.org/carlbaugh/pg472.pdf Or two months!

http://www.creationmoments.com/radio/transcripts/quick-coal Or between two weeks and a year!

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1318-record-buried-in-coal-the  Or in a matter of hours!

http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=51 Or six ( 6 ) hours!

http://www.icr.org/article/87/ Or by 'quick' heating!

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/goco.pdf Or eight months!

 

The Bible is God's inerrant source of truth - the agreement of these YEC's proves it!

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[bornagainathiest]

Relax, folks!

 

Here's the source article for this gem of YEC disinformation...

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/EO064i050p00978-01/abstract

 

"The geology and geochemistry of coal are receiving increased attention in federal government laboratories. Coal may be burned at increasing rates for centuries to come, and thus its properties must be better known. A new approach to coal research was reported recently by investigators at the Argonne National Laboratory (Chemical and Engineering News, November 21, 1983). A group from Argonne's Division of Chemistry has recently synthesized coal from natural materials. The results of this study may provide insight to the nature of the highly complex organic structures that are found in coal. Clearly, the goals of the Argonne program to characterize coal chemically and to document the geological processes of its formation are closer to being realized than ever before."

 

The key to understanding this particular piece of skulduggery are the words, 'natural materials'. (Which I've highlighted, above.)  If the Creationists were playing by the rules, these 'natural materials' would be freshly-felled trees, recently-uprooted shrubs, and pristine plant material - the very same things that they say were buried under layers of sediment by Noah's Flood. 

 

But that's not so!

 

Look here!

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=artificial+maturation+of+coal&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=XPx4UpyVF9CQhQe804HwBw&ved=0CCYQgQMwAA

These are the results from a Google search for the... "Artifical Maturation of Coal."

Not the ultra-rapid conversion of whole plants and trees into anthracite and bituminite coal - which is what the Fundies are trying to say this is.  No sir!  The 'natural materials' used in the Argonne National Laboratory experiment, were used to study the artificial MATURATION of coal.  Not the warp-speed conversion of just-dead plant matter into coal over a weekend.  This is not the 6-hour conversion of four-hundred foot sequoia redwoods into high-grade coal, overnight.  Nor is it the full transmutation of jungles and forests into coal by a global flood that happened about 6,000 years ago.

 

No.  What is happening here is that scientists are taking a kind of partially-matured 'natural material' called Lignite and then artificially accelerating the rest of it's maturation, using heat and pressure - as can be seen from the ScienceDirect links below. 

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0009254189901198

"Natural samples of various maturities"   (Not totally immature and fresh plant material.)

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/014663809190019G

"Although these lignites consist predominantly of gas-prone vitrinitic components, their organic-rich nature can compensate for their poor convertibility to liquid hydrocarbons."

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0146638086900318

"Immature type III organic matter from the Mahakam delta (Indonesia) was heated for 24 hr from 250 to 400°C in a closed and very confined medium, under pressures of 500 and 1000 bars with and without water."

 

(Type III organic matter.  See Kerogen... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerogen )

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0146638002002413

"The objectives of the study are to compare product compositions and yields generated from lignite artificially matured by open nonhydrous pyrolysis, closed nonhydrous pyrolysis, and hydrous pyrolysis."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignite

The Lignite which is artifically matured like this can be anything from 1.8 to 65 million years old, before it's used in these experiments.  Lignite originates from the Tertiary period, immediately after the demise of the Dinosaurs and just before the advent of hominid humans.  Scientists perform these experiments to study the natural evolution of coal, without having to wait for millions of years for it to mature by itself. 

.

.

.

So, what the YEC's have done is taken the rather loose wording of the Argonne Nat. Lab. quote and twisted it to mean that just-dead trees can be converted into fully-mature coal, over a weekend.  Or in the case of Noah's global flood - less than a year.  Thus God's truth in the book of Genesis is verified by the lies of modern men.

 

Don't trust these bozo's one inch, folks!  They are liars thru and thru! 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

[midniterider]

I bet we could fuel something with burning bibles.

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

 

 

"I do not have anything against science. Science is important, but nothing in this physical world is with out its flaws." TrueBeliever

 

If god created the physical world, why would there be flaws? bill

 

Duh!!!

 

When God created the world, it was good. He said so. The flaws are the fault of humans and the Devil. This is clearly shown in the Good Book.

 

From this Good Book, also known as the Bible, we can clearly glean that God is not the only creator in this universe.

 

 

Of course!

 

God created a flat Earth, supported by pillars and covered by a dome that contained the stars, moon and sun - just like the Bible says.

 

Then Satan turned the Earth round, turned the dome into the vacuum of space and sent the moon and sun to their present location and scattered the stars lightyears away, some of them billions of lightyears away.  And Satan did all of this to confuse people so they would think the Bible is a fairy tale.

 

It all makes sense now!   Crazy like batshit sense . . .

 

Yes, I'm piling on you too, mymistake, because of your lies about the Lord.  He created the earth with built in "age" and the universe with an appearance of no dome etc. to confound the wise.  I know because a traveling evangelist told us that geological formations were created by God with "built in age" to trip up people who glory in the wisdom of man. 

 

 

I'm on your case too, MM! 

 

Didn't you know that Texaco, ExxonMobil and every other oil (and coal and gas) company has swallowed God's "built-in-age" illusion... hook, line and sinker? 

They deludedly think that these fossil fuels take... millions ...of years to form - but scripture tells the truth! 

Here!  Read and believe...

 

http://creation.com/coal-memorial-to-the-flood  Coal takes only WEEKS to form, not millions of years!

http://www.creationevidence.org/carlbaugh/pg472.pdf Or two months!

http://www.creationmoments.com/radio/transcripts/quick-coal Or between two weeks and a year!

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1318-record-buried-in-coal-the  Or in a matter of hours!

http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=51 Or six ( 6 ) hours!

http://www.icr.org/article/87/ Or by 'quick' heating!

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/goco.pdf Or eight months!

 

The Bible is God's inerrant source of truth - the agreement of these YEC's proves it!

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Exactly.  The TECs are in agreement about the time interval because God's Word tells us that in His sight, a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

[RipVanWinkle]

"When God created the world, it was good. He said so. The flaws are the fault of humans and the Devil. This is clearly shown in the Good Book." duderonomy

 

Yeah, and god had no idea that humans and satan would make his perfect world imperfect. Oh wait,god knows everything, past, present and future. So, remind me why he created this miserable world? bill

[duderonomy]

"When God created the world, it was good. He said so. The flaws are the fault of humans and the Devil. This is clearly shown in the Good Book." duderonomy

 

Yeah, and god had no idea that humans and satan would make his perfect world imperfect. Oh wait,god knows everything, past, present and future. So, remind me why he created this miserable world? bill

 

bill,

 

What these apostate motherf*ck*rs are trying to do is lead you away from the truth of The Word with many arguments and oppositions of science, falsely so called, and away from the glorious light that is our Lord. Notice how many of them quote only part of what I say and ignore the rest. This is called quote mining, and it is a tool of Satan himself. You yourself have fallen into this trap, but there is a way out!

 

Remember that God in his infinite wisdom created the world that we, being sinners, might know his glory.  That's all. He created the world so that we might see and know his glory.

 

TB's prayers are working on me, bill.  I can feel the prayers. I must join True Believer in praying not only for myself, but you too bill.   It's all about the glory of God. 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

OK, in an effort to stay on topic just a bit, I had this thought:  What if "predestination" in the Bible only applies to those who use their free will to believe the gospel?

 

Could the entire issue of Free Will vs. Predestination be reconciled by this?  One is free to choose, and if one chooses God, then predestination kicks in.