Free Will

[bornagainathiest]

To Ficino and Centauri...

 

Thanks for the responses, you guys.  I readily accept the points made and quotes quoted.

 

Now, perhaps I should explain why I introduced PR into this thread?

When I read the A.S.K. page I realized that the 'forward-only' progression of scriptural revelation meant that the latter parts of the Bible must be the clearest, best defined and the most authoritative.  That the OT and the Gospels should be brought into line with the last gospel of all -  the one given by Jesus himself to Saul on the road to Damascus.  As described here... 

 

Galatians 1 : 11 - 20, NIV.

 

¹¹ I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin.

¹² I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

¹³ For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.

¹⁴ I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

¹⁵ But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased

¹⁶ to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being.

¹⁷ I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

¹⁸ Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephasand stayed with him fifteen days.

¹⁹ I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother.

²⁰ I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

 

Ok, when I was a Christian I accepted PR as bona fide and thought nothing much more about it.  It was only recently, in the light of the Predestination issue, that I re-examined it and saw that Paul's gospel was the final one given by God to one of his apostles.  Even though Paul did not write it down, after the fashion of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, his gospel was the basis of his epistles to the churches of Rome, Corinth, etc. and his outreach to the Jews in the book of Hebrews. 

 

Therefore, using the 'forward-only' principle of PR (the earlier must conform to the latter, because the latter is always considered clearer, weightier and more authoritative) Paul's gospel MUST take precedence over the other four and his doctrinal writings MUST take precedence over those of any apostle (Peter, John and James) appointed before him.  So the non-Pauline epistles MUST be brought into line with the Pauline ones.

 

Meaning that Paul's doctrinal position on Predestination is the final, definitive and authoritative one.  The one that PR-accepting Christians should accept.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

 

 

 

[duderonomy]

 

Some of you have mentioned that this topic has been covered here before. I used the search feature and it just led me back to this thread. Can anyone help out with a link to the other free will threads? I'm learning a bit from this thread, and maybe I could from the others too.

It seems that free will means different things to different people, within and without the Bible. Has free will ever been defined for the sake of argument? 

 

This is one of those very very rare instances where I think that maybe I don't know everything. 

Hey Dude, there was a lot of discussion in summer 2012 on here:

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/50226-repenting-after-death/page-34

 

Again these topics came up in April 2013 on here, esp. from post #74 and following (lots of exchanges betw Centauri and OC, etc.):

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/55943-does-evil-exist/page-3

 

 

Thanks again Ficino. Between what I read on those two threads so far and this one, I see that I may have re-evaluate my position on free will.

[chrisstavrous]

We could debate about free will untill our heads explode and thats the problem with any doctrine in the bible. It's not you it's just how subjectively unclear bible doctrines are.

[TrueBeliever]

According to what I believe (I am a Christian) The Bible is very clear on the topic of free will.  Everyone has the freedom to choose what they wish to do in everyday life.  Of course God already knows what you are going to do because he is all knowing. "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps." Proverbs 16:9  The problem I see here in this discussion is that God has been put in to box created by finite human heads.  This poses a problem since God is, in fact, infinite.  We cannot every truly know God.  This is not to say that we cannot know a lot about God.  This is the reason there are so many differing opinions about free will in christian circles.  The Bible is clear on the fact that we do not have free will regarding salvation.  This, thankfully, is left up to the most holy and righteous Lord.  This is found in Romans 9.  We have all sinned and all deserve Hell. This is found in Romans 3.  I thank God every day for calling me his own. This poses another problem because why would a loving God not save the whole world and take them all to heaven.  God does this so that those that he has saved might see His mercy and grace that was so freely offered to us.  This is found again in Romans 9.  Another set back many of you have had in the faith is the problem of evil. God allows the existence of evil so that we can see his divine glory and mercy in the places he has taken away pain and suffering.

 

Eternally His,

TrueBeliever             

[mymistake]

This poses a problem since God is, in fact, infinite.  

 

 

Please provide the objective evidence that demonstrates that the fact is so.  Or were you just saying that you blindly assume (have faith) that it is a fact?

 

 

We cannot every truly know God.  This is not to say that we cannot know a lot about God.  This is the reason there are so many differing opinions about free will in christian circles.  The Bible is clear on the fact that we do not have free will regarding salvation.  This, thankfully, is left up to the most holy and righteous Lord.  This is found in Romans 9.  We have all sinned and all deserve Hell. This is found in Romans 3.  I thank God every day for calling me his own. This poses another problem because why would a loving God not save the whole world and take them all to heaven.  God does this so that those that he has saved might see His mercy and grace that was so freely offered to us.  This is found again in Romans 9.

 

So I take it that, like the Apostle Paul, you do not believe in the Trinity?

 

 Another set back many of you have had in the faith is the problem of evil. God allows the existence of evil so that we can see his divine glory and mercy in the places he has taken away pain and suffering.

 

So you hold the opinion that God is not all-good.  That is certainly one way to look at it.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

According to what I believe (I am a Christian) The Bible is very clear on the topic of free will.  Everyone has the freedom to choose what they wish to do in everyday life.  Of course God already knows what you are going to do because he is all knowing. "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps." Proverbs 16:9  The problem I see here in this discussion is that God has been put in to box created by finite human heads.  This poses a problem since God is, in fact, infinite.  We cannot every truly know God. 

 

So a human chooses what they want to do, but then your god plans out everything they do after making that decision? That's what I think you're saying. What you see as a problem, I don't exactly see as a problem. The reason we put the god of the Bible in a box, created by finite human heads, is because the vast majority of people on this site see the god of the Bible as nothing more than a human creation.

 

If you say that your god is infinite and we can't truly know him, then you can't possibly know that he's not a total sadist, playing games with humans in very much the same way as a child pulling wings off of flies and legs off of spiders.

 

 

This is not to say that we cannot know a lot about God.  This is the reason there are so many differing opinions about free will in christian circles.  The Bible is clear on the fact that we do not have free will regarding salvation.  This, thankfully, is left up to the most holy and righteous Lord.  This is found in Romans 9.  We have all sinned and all deserve Hell. This is found in Romans 3. 

 

If you can't know everything about your god, then how do you know anything about him at all? From what you see in the Bible, you might know the actions he has taken in the past, if you believe he is God, but you can't really know anything about him other than what he tells humans in the Bible. How do you know your god is not a liar? How do you know he didn't purposefully set humans up to fail from the very beginning?

 

It looks to me like he placed Adam and Eve in the garden, with no knowledge whatsoever of sin, so they could not have known that disobeying their god was wrong. All he said was, "If you eat of this tree, you'll die." He certainly never told them ahead of time that every generation of humans after them would be sinners, completely unable to avoid sinning, thus the reason the Bible says that all humans have sinned.

 

Also, why do you think it is that it says that all humans have sinned? It must be because it is impossible for humans to never sin. Why would that be the case? It looks like it is because either your god or the tree that Adam and Eve ate from magically programmed all humans to be sinners. If humans can't possibly live life without sinning once, then no humans chooses to sin. Humans are only doing what they've been programmed to do, which is sin. It's unavoidable, which makes your god fully responsible for every sin every human commits.

 

Also, why do you think humans deserve to be in Hell for sinning? If humans can't even avoid sinning once, then your god has forced all humans into a situation in which they are all on their way to Hell, meaning he must save them from it. That, in my opinion, is no different than a doctor purposefully infecting a patient with poison and then giving them the antidote before it's too late.

 

 

I thank God every day for calling me his own. This poses another problem because why would a loving God not save the whole world and take them all to heaven.  God does this so that those that he has saved might see His mercy and grace that was so freely offered to us.  This is found again in Romans 9.  Another set back many of you have had in the faith is the problem of evil. God allows the existence of evil so that we can see his divine glory and mercy in the places he has taken away pain and suffering.

 

Eternally His,

TrueBeliever           

 

Based on the conclusions I have come to, based entirely on the way the Bible describes your god, if he has purposefully placed humans into a situation in which they are all on their way to Hell and must be saved, then by sending anyone to Hell, he has shown himself to be anything but merciful. This gives your god the appearance of a child who likes to put ants in water and drowns half, while freeing the other half.

 

The problem of evil is not a setback here. If your god exists, he is entirely responsible for evil. If he created the Earth, then he has infected everything with evil, so by taking away pain and suffering, all he is doing is curing us of the poison he injected into everything. He's like a corrupt doctor with a messiah complex who wants to build his reputation as a lifesaver, hoping that no one discovers what he is actually doing to his patients.

 

As you can see, our conclusions are very different from each other and that's okay. You might think otherwise, but that's okay too. Have a nice day.

[florduh]

To say essentially that "God works in mysterious ways" or "we mere mortals can't understand God" is not an argument for a belief system that makes no logical sense and is in contradiction with both itself and observable reality. Such all encompassing statements only highlight the fact that there is no reason to believe such nonsense.

[bornagainathiest]

So an infinite God predestined a finite portion of all humans to receive his mercy?

 

Well now, it can't be us that causes God's infinite mercy to become finite, can it? 

 

After all, we have no free will and therefore can't be held responsible for anything?.

.

.

 

Or can we?

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 This poses another problem because why would a loving God not save the whole world and take them all to heaven.  God does this so that those that he has saved might see His mercy and grace that was so freely offered to us.  This is found again in Romans 9.  Another set back many of you have had in the faith is the problem of evil. God allows the existence of evil so that we can see his divine glory and mercy in the places he has taken away pain and suffering.

 

Eternally His,

TrueBeliever             

 

god sure does a lot to draw attention to itself, doesn't it?  The funny thing is, though, if god really were omniscient and omnipotent, and if it really had done all of the things christians give it credit for, would it really need to have its ego constantly stroked like that?

 

Furthermore, the idea that god allows evil so that we can see its divine glory and mercy completely fails when evil men rape 10-year-olds.  Do you really see your god comforting them by saying "Oh, Sweetie, I could have intervened and stopped those men hurting you, but then you wouldn't see my mercy"?  For a fuller explanation of why this idea is completely ridiculous, read "Who Are You to Worship God?" in the Rants and Replies section.

 

Lastly, point to just one place where god has taken away any pain or suffering.  I don't care if you show me a google map or just provide me with the GPS coordinates; I want to see one place where god has actually done anything.  Africa?  Bosnia?  Northern Ireland?

[TrueBeliever]

My objective here was not to convince anyone of my beliefs. Only God can convince/convict anyone to come to a saving knowledge of Him. I was simply stating the truth which is all God asks of me.  Whether you accept what I know as truth is up to you and the conviction of God.  I am not here to offend anyone.  I am not a member of any religion, only a relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  I could sit here and argue all day but that is not what Christ has called me to do.  Christ has called me witness to the world. This is found in Matthew 28:16-20.  You are all in my prayers. I pray that God would return everyone of you ex-christians to His fold if it be His will.

 

Eternally His,

TrueBeliever 

[florduh]

 I pray that God would return everyone of you ex-christians to His fold if it be His will.

 

If it "be His will" then you can't do anything anyway, so save your breath.

 

I was simply stating the truth which is all God asks of me. 

 

Oh, and for the record, you are stating your belief, not any actual truth.

 

Thanks for dropping by!

[mymistake]

My objective here was not to convince anyone of my beliefs. Only God can convince/convict anyone to come to a saving knowledge of Him. I was simply stating the truth which is all God asks of me.  Whether you accept what I know as truth is up to you and the conviction of God.  I am not here to offend anyone.  I am not a member of any religion, only a relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  I could sit here and argue all day but that is not what Christ has called me to do.  Christ has called me witness to the world. This is found in Matthew 28:16-20.  You are all in my prayers. I pray that God would return everyone of you ex-christians to His fold if it be His will.

 

 

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."  - Christopher Hitchens

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

My objective here was not to convince anyone of my beliefs. Only God can convince/convict anyone to come to a saving knowledge of Him. I was simply stating the truth which is all God asks of me.  Whether you accept what I know as truth is up to you and the conviction of God.  I am not here to offend anyone.  I am not a member of any religion, only a relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  I could sit here and argue all day but that is not what Christ has called me to do.  Christ has called me witness to the world. This is found in Matthew 28:16-20.  You are all in my prayers. I pray that God would return everyone of you ex-christians to His fold if it be His will.

 

Eternally His,

TrueBeliever 

 

How do you know your god has called you to do anything? What if your god is the Devil? What if your god is just one god among many? How can you know that the Bible is truth at all? These are important questions that need to be asked and you can either ignore them or think about them and try to find answers to them.

 

I don't think you have offended anyone. What you have done is show that you are willing to blindly accept, believe, and follow the instructions that come from your Bible. If you want to do that, instead of think critically about Christianity and/or the Bible because you either can't or won't, for whatever reason it is that prevents you from doing so, then that's fine.

 

To you, the Bible is truth. To us, it's a big lie that you have been sucked into believing. It's understandable that this would happen because it happened to all of us. The god of the Bible is a big, scary, and monstrous god, according to the Bible. It's scary to think critically about that book, the religions that have been formed due to that book's existence, and the deity that the Bible was designed to advertise.

 

You can pray to the Bible god that he'll bring us ex-Christians back into the fold, all you want, but if the Bible is accurate, your prayer will be as useless as a clump of dirt. If the god of the Bible exists, then he's decided already who's going to Hell and who's going to stand around his throne, singing praises for all eternity, after having their humanity stripped away, taking with it everything that made them who they were.

 

You said what you felt you had to, so you can either defend your position or walk away. It's really up to you what you decide. No one here is going to say, "YOU BETTER LEAVE CHRISTIANITY OR ELSE!!!!1"

 

Please do stop by again.

[TrueBeliever]

On the contrary, there is evidence for the veracity of the Bible. A good source for this is Josh McDowell's book The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict. By a former atheist that set out to disprove the Bible. He ended up becoming a christian because everything he found pointed to the fact that the Bible is indeed truth. 

In response to Florduh Prayer is not a waste of breath. God reserves the right to answer prayer with a yes or no answer whichever be His will. Since we as humans do not know what His response will be we ask so that we may be shown His will. Also, that which I believe as truth I state as truth.

[mymistake]

On the contrary, there is evidence for the veracity of the Bible. A good source for this is Josh McDowell's book The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict. By a former atheist that set out to disprove the Bible. He ended up becoming a christian because everything he found pointed to the fact that the Bible is indeed truth. 

In response to Florduh Prayer is not a waste of breath. God reserves the right to answer prayer with a yes or no answer whichever be His will. Since we as humans do not know what His response will be we ask so that we may be shown His will. Also, that which I believe as truth I state as truth.

 

 

Oh please.  The Bible doesn't even agree with itself.  McDowell's apologetics are meant for Christians who want to sooth their own doubts and confirm their own bias.  God does't even have the power to say "Hi".  But you are right about humans not knowing God.  Objective evidence is required in order to have knowledge.  Nobody can know God because there is no objective evidence.  Asserting that false things are true only hurts your own credibility.

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

 

On the contrary, there is evidence for the veracity of the Bible. A good source for this is Josh McDowell's book The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict. By a former atheist that set out to disprove the Bible. He ended up becoming a christian because everything he found pointed to the fact that the Bible is indeed truth. 

In response to Florduh Prayer is not a waste of breath. God reserves the right to answer prayer with a yes or no answer whichever be His will. Since we as humans do not know what His response will be we ask so that we may be shown His will. Also, that which I believe as truth I state as truth.

 

 

Oh please.  The Bible doesn't even agree with itself.  McDowell's apologetics are meant for Christians who want to sooth their own doubts and confirm their own bias.  God does't even have the power to say "Hi".  But you are right about humans not knowing God.  Objective evidence is required in order to have knowledge.  Nobody can know God because there is no objective evidence.  Asserting that false things are true only hurts your own credibility.

 

 

But... the Bible belongs in a different category of evidence, so it's still evidence... Of course, every other holy text is wrong by default and not evidence.

[florduh]

Hey, what can we say? TrueBeliever has the Truth. Case closed.

[midniterider]

  We cannot every truly know God.

 

God is just as close as your own imagination. One and the same, actually. :-)

[♦ ficino ♦]

What is this meme of "a former atheist who " etc. is now saved?  Like Madame X, I'm starting to doubt these stories.

[midniterider]

My objective here was not to convince anyone of my beliefs. Only God can convince/convict anyone to come to a saving knowledge of Him. I was simply stating the truth which is all God asks of me.  Whether you accept what I know as truth is up to you and the conviction of God.  I am not here to offend anyone.  I am not a member of any religion, only a relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  I could sit here and argue all day but that is not what Christ has called me to do.  Christ has called me witness to the world. This is found in Matthew 28:16-20.  You are all in my prayers. I pray that God would return everyone of you ex-christians to His fold if it be His will.

 

Eternally His,

TrueBeliever 

 

Your prayer has been blocked by a more powerful spell.

[TrueBeliever]

This has gotten way off topic but I do have one more question. Have you, mymistake, actually read The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict or are you just making an assumption about what you do not know? Also florduh, I should have said that What I believe as truth I state as truth, what you believe as truth you state as truth.

Back to the topic of free will as a christian I would say that we have a type of free will, but it is enslaved by our nature until God frees it completely.   

[florduh]

What I believe as truth I state as truth, what you believe as truth you state as truth.

 

I can support my conclusions with facts, logic and observable evidence. That is, by definition, the opposite of taking extraordinary claims on faith.

[mymistake]

This has gotten way off topic but I do have one more question. Have you, mymistake, actually read The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict or are you just making an assumption about what you do not know? 

 

 

I have never read that book.  I assume it is like his old Evidence that Demands a Verdict series that I studied thoroughly.  I use to own a copy of his '72 book by that title, the '79 update as well as his "Answers to Tough Questions", "More Evidence that Demands a Verdict" and "Why Wait".  I also attended one of his workshops.

 

Does his 1999 book "New Evidence that Demands a Verdict" make a dramatically different approach from the books he wrote in the 70's and 80's?  Fill us in on it.

 

 

Edit:

Just googling around and found this:

http://jmdansville.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/is-the-bible-reliable-from-the-new-evidence-that-demands-a-verdict/

 

If that website is right about McDowell's 1999 book then I was right.  It paints McDowell as grossly misinformed.  Ironically it does so while trying to applaud and support McDowell.  No two copies of the New Testament are alike.  None is older than than the third century.  The oldest New Testament material is fragments; just little itty-bitty scraps of parchment with a few words on them.  The Bible is not special.  It's like any other poorly-written propaganda piece from antiquity.  Forget about interpreting the fragments.  The published versions of the Bible all contradict themselves.  As for archeological discoveries backing up the Bible the only kind of truth found in the Bible is the political geography of the time it was written.  The Bible authors knew who their neighbors were.  They could identify many of the different tribes that lived in the region.  This does not indicate that the fantastic religious claims in the Bible have any merit.

 

It looks to me like McDowell has not changed.  Would you like me to pull up more reviews of New Evidence that Demands a Verdict?

[midniterider]

 I am not a member of any religion, only a relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 

 

 

Those silly religious Christians, they do stuff like:

 

Praise Jesus

Worship Jesus

Pray to Jesus

 

But people who actually have a relationship with Jesus:

 

Praise Jesus

Worship Jesus

Pray to Jesus

[Ralet]

This has gotten way off topic but I do have one more question. Have you, mymistake, actually read The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict or are you just making an assumption about what you do not know? Also florduh, I should have said that What I believe as truth I state as truth, what you believe as truth you state as truth.

Back to the topic of free will as a christian I would say that we have a type of free will, but it is enslaved by our nature until God frees it completely.   

...which is given by god. Your god gives desires and needs that are "wrong", abilities that are harmful to others and puts us in a world of suffering just to play the hero afterwards. it is not the devil or we that created illnesses, the ability to kill or rape etc.