Why Did You Get Married?

[Deidre]

While most of us here have stated we don't think it's a moral failure when peple can't stay together. But there is more. We don't actually know scientifically how long the human pair bond's cycle is programmed to last. Not that there are not exceptions. But a lot of pair bonding apologists will use non-anthropoid and even non-simian examples, wolves, eagles and so on.

No apes are lifelong monogamous. We as apes have the unique challenge of protracted gestation and protracted child-rearing, which has caused females to sexually select males that can best assist during that vulnerable time.

But homo sapiens didn't live very long, and often lived very difficult lives. There are, of course, exceptions. Some island societies that are resource-rich (comparatively) live polyamorously and behave a lot more like bonobonos than they do chimpanzees.

Now that isn't to say we can't. Evolutionary psychology is considerably more complicated than the biological factors. We use most of our brain's processes to figure out what we're going to do about relationships, those we are in, and those we want to be in, and those we want to be out of. And here I thought writing code all day could fry my brain. Apparently, most of what we do mentally has to do with relationships. This is exaggerated among human beings over other species.

Again, that isn't to say we can't pair bond for life. We do all kinds of things outside of our base biology. I, for one, would not make it as a male in a chimpanzee-like society. Dismissing out of hand being blind. I'm not particularly given to jealousy, and I happened to turn out a bit more of one of those 'sensitive' types, not because it was popular in the 80s / 90s to do so, I just happened to turn out that way. I can live this way, exhibiting no characteristics that an alpha would feel are competitive, and in our society have managed to reproduce once, provide for the mother during the difficult time before and after birth, and help bring up the offspring to adulthood. But that might well not have been the case a few hundred years ago, let alone a few thousand. So I'm not saying lifelong pair bonds cannot exist. I'm in one now that doesn't seem to be in danger of breaking apart at this point. But for those that feel like a failure when a socially-sanctioned pair bond has terminated, it might be instructive to read Jane Goodall and others who have written about anthropoid societies that, while not human, contain most of your DNA and descended from a common ancestor.

I'll freely admit that I'm less committed to the marriage I'm in, but more committed to the Her, the One I'm bonded with / married to. People talk about being committed to the idea of family: I was never that. But I was, and am, committed to the one and only child of mine. Don't know if this all makes sense or not. But if the Wife and I are still together after 50, or 75, years? I will not be thinking about that number of years of marriage: I will be thinking about the privilege of having spent that number of years with Her. I'm one of those people who definitely thinks the state contract makes so many things easier in a post-industrial society. Perhaps if I didn't know my Lesbian friend and her wife and family, I would think differently. But watching them struggle with things most of us do easily and without incident, I think the recognized contract has merit. Sure, at one time, all you had to do was live with someone and everyone assumed you were bonded. Now, though, we don't live in a society where everyone knows everyone else, and in this post-industrial era, paper has meaning whether we want it to or not.

And cultural anthropologists stress the unique nature of human ceremonies. Marriage or commitment ceremonies are one. When my daughter asked how I felt, since I'd taken a vow under God to be married. I explained: You take the god part away, the religious trappings, you still have what's important. Promises to stand with each other through thick and thin.

But I don't think people have to justify why they don't want either a marriage or a commitment ceremony. Even if it is upbringing, that doesn't make it less valid. There's plenty we all don't do based on something we saw growing up. That's human. Most of what we learn comes from observation, not just direct experience. Having seen it, and said no to it, is just as valid.

There should be no struggle, though. Gay people have had struggles because heterosexuals have been making the rules. Rules that are stupid and unnecessary to anyone's happiness. But, human beings if exposed to something long enough, can not only think it's normal but that they need it. Like marriage. No one needs it. Society has convinced us we need it to really be fulfilled.

 

And we don't. And if it was so fulfilling, we would see less divorce. Much less.

 

Oh well.

[Leo]

So I'm only asking:

How would you do co-property and co-parenting without some kind of document? I don't mean permadocument, just document for the time? And if you're in the hospital and in a coma, how do they let the right person in to see you? We want your lover in to see you, not some creep who says he is. I'm not arguing, I'm only trying to expand my horizons. The polyamorous have done just that in my case by describing things. I figure you probably have some answers about thaqt stuff.

And yet, like you say, it may not be all that we say. My wife and I do share a bank account, but both have different cards, different logon information, and so on. Both our names on everything. So, you may be right. Anyway, thanks for expanding some of us beyond the world we just assumed to be as it is.

[Deidre]

So I'm only asking:

How would you do co-property and co-parenting without some kind of document? I don't mean permadocument, just document for the time? And if you're in the hospital and in a coma, how do they let the right person in to see you? We want your lover in to see you, not some creep who says he is. I'm not arguing, I'm only trying to expand my horizons. The polyamorous have done just that in my case by describing things. I figure you probably have some answers about thaqt stuff.

And yet, like you say, it may not be all that we say. My wife and I do share a bank account, but both have different cards, different logon information, and so on. Both our names on everything. So, you may be right. Anyway, thanks for expanding some of us beyond the world we just assumed to be as it is.

Leo? I've read your posts a few times, today. I was at work, and daydreaming about this whole thing. lol I want to say, you seem like a kind man. Like you have a sense of wonder still about marriage, and even your wife. I can sense that in your words. I'm sorry if I appeared to judge you in any particular way. You have a right to do as you wish, and if you and your wife have found happiness in being married, that's a good thing. I need to stop putting my own values onto others, as I don't want them to put theirs onto me. haha Thank you for sharing here with us.

 

And, ftr, I don't want a polyamorous relationship. Talk about work!?

 

 

 

Well, my bf and I discussed things today and we are going to take a break.

I wish I could meet a guy who dislikes the thought of marriage as much as me. :/

Not to play with your grammar, but let me rephrase your issue thusly:

 

How about if you could find a guy who dislikes the thought of marriage

as much as he likes the thought of being with you?

 

Would you want that?

 

I had written more but decided not to include it here.

 

Human

 

 

 I love that. Yes, that would be nirvana. (really)

 

 

I was a Christian.  So was (is) my wife.  Therefore, marriage was the only option.

 

Would I have married anyway?  Not her (unless she also was non-Christian) as she would not consider courting anyone outside the faith.  But as a general principle?

 

Probably.

 

I was never interested in serial courting or casual relationships - my wife was my first girlfriend although I was not far off 20 before I took on board fundamentalist concepts and I never sought any other relationship with another Christian girl.  I really don't think I would have had a number of relationships as a non-Christian either.  Marriage represents permanence, and permanence is what I would have sought either way.  I rather suspect, were I to find myself without a wife now, I would remain single.

Thanks for sharing this! Your response is so very interesting to me! You would have "sought out permanence either way."

Do you think permanence is important in relationships? I mean, for society as a whole?

 

Dee, do you feel some obligation to serve society as a whole, with whatever type of relationship you're in?

 

lol No...

 

What I have/had with this current guy I've been seeing has been pretty great. A connection, intellectually, emotionally, sexually. It's all there. I guess I just want someone to 'stay' with me with no legal documentation 'requiring' it. I want a man to want to stay with me, for me...and for no other reason. Not that people can't just walk out the door and head on down to divorce court, but it's harder to do. Not all states make that part easy, either. Some require a separation, some require counseling before granting a couple a legal divorce. So, there's all that.

 

In reflecting upon all this, I used to think I only didn't want marriage because of only seeing it end in my mind. But, now I see that I want something lasting, because it's based on what my partner and I would want. Not, out of legal obligation.

 

And I don't like the idea of living with someone 24/7.

 

Other than that, that's about it.

 

Sooo...you haven't remarried all these years...what holds you back from marriage, Human? If u want to share.

[Deidre]

 

 

Not to play with your grammar, but let me rephrase your issue thusly:How about if you could find a guy who dislikes the thought of marriageas much as he likes the thought of being with you?Would you want that?I had written more but decided not to include it here.Human

  I love that. Yes, that would be nirvana. (really)

Well, that sounds good, nirvana!

 

Dee, do you feel some obligation to serve society as a whole, with whatever type of relationship you're in?

 lol No... ... I guess I just want someone to 'stay' with me with no legal documentation 'requiring' it. I want a man to want to stay with me, for me...and for no other reason. Not that people can't just walk out the door and head on down to divorce court, but it's harder to do. Not all states make that part easy, either. Some require a separation, some require counseling before granting a couple a legal divorce. So, there's all that. In reflecting upon all this, I used to think I only didn't want marriage because of only seeing it end in my mind. But, now I see that I want something lasting, because it's based on what my partner and I would want. Not, out of legal obligation. And I don't like the idea of living with someone 24/7. Other than that, that's about it.  Sooo...you haven't remarried all these years...what holds you back from marriage, Human? If u want to share.

Dee, this sounds insightful about yourself. But I'm a bit confused. You say you want something lasting, but then you say you don't like the idea of living with someone 24/7. Could you clarify that for me?Thanks :)Human

I just think that it might be hard to be with someone, all the time. I enjoy intimacy and spending the night or two lol but to live together forever ... Idk.

[mymistake]

I think LeoBirdMan nailed it. If a woman asked me what I thought about marriage, my first thought would be.."if I tell her the truth, is she going to get up and walk out?"

 

 

Yeah, this is a difficult question to get an honest answer on.  Early in a relationship guys might give the answer they think a woman wants to hear.  Some topics are minefields.

[Guest ninurta]

 

I think LeoBirdMan nailed it. If a woman asked me what I thought about marriage, my first thought would be.."if I tell her the truth, is she going to get up and walk out?"

 

 

Yeah, this is a difficult question to get an honest answer on.  Early in a relationship guys might give the answer they think a woman wants to hear.  Some topics are minefields.

 

That's why you don't even bother and just give an honest answer. What's the worse that can happen? You say you don't and she does, so she finds someone who does.

[mymistake]

 

 

I think LeoBirdMan nailed it. If a woman asked me what I thought about marriage, my first thought would be.."if I tell her the truth, is she going to get up and walk out?"

 

 

Yeah, this is a difficult question to get an honest answer on.  Early in a relationship guys might give the answer they think a woman wants to hear.  Some topics are minefields.

 

 

That's why you don't even bother and just give an honest answer. What's the worse that can happen? You say you don't and she does, so she finds someone who does.

 

 

You have no idea how much stress and crap I have had to endure for giving an honest answer.  My natural instinct is to give an honest answer.  It's not just in dating.  There are many, many social situations in life where honesty is severely punished.  Even now I still have a strong desire to go the honest route so in situations where I've been blown up in the past I tend to not answer rather than lie.

 

I don't know why so many people create situations that select for dishonesty. 

[Guest ninurta]

 

 

 

I think LeoBirdMan nailed it. If a woman asked me what I thought about marriage, my first thought would be.."if I tell her the truth, is she going to get up and walk out?"

 

 

Yeah, this is a difficult question to get an honest answer on.  Early in a relationship guys might give the answer they think a woman wants to hear.  Some topics are minefields.

 

 

That's why you don't even bother and just give an honest answer. What's the worse that can happen? You say you don't and she does, so she finds someone who does.

 

 

You have no idea how much stress and crap I have had to endure for giving an honest answer.  My natural instinct is to give an honest answer.  It's not just in dating.  There are many, many social situations in life where honesty is severely punished.  Even now I still have a strong desire to go the honest route so in situations where I've been blown up in the past I tend to not answer rather than lie.

 

I don't know why so many people create situations that select for dishonesty. 

 

That's why I'm alone so much, I can't stand people. I have few friends and my girlfriend and that's all I need. I never wanted more, people are too much work to put up with. No use sacrificing my identity for unreasonable folk.

[Deidre]

Attempts by humans to marry animals have been recorded.

 

Can a person marry their vacuum cleaner?

That would suck. Get it?!

[Deidre]

 

I think LeoBirdMan nailed it. If a woman asked me what I thought about marriage, my first thought would be.."if I tell her the truth, is she going to get up and walk out?"

 

 

 

Yeah, this is a difficult question to get an honest answer on.  Early in a relationship guys might give the answer they think a woman wants to hear.  Some topics are minefields.

Lots of women don't wish to marry. Think this myth has been perpetuated for too long that women are desperate to marry and men are pushing them away. Obviously I don't want to marry thus the thread topic. I don't want this thread to turn into women bashing or men trying to pretend like they know what all women want.

 

Women don't need to marry like they once thought they did years ago. Truth is they never needed to, but society's "norms" convinced them otherwise.

[Margee]

I think as I read through this thread that times are changing now. What once was drilled into our heads by our mothers, teachers, etc (of the things that would make us happy).... is up for question now by the younger generation. I'm glad the younger ones are questioning. 

[Deidre]

 

 

Attempts by humans to marry animals have been recorded.

Can a person marry their vacuum cleaner?

That would suck. Get it?!

Punny!

Marriage would suck! Deidre, You and I are friends. we could probably hang out in real life and enjoy each others company very much. But if we lived with each other for multiple decades , we would hate each other! I have little doubt of that! that's what marriage does to people.

It Turns best friends into enemies! I've seen it happen with every marriage in my family;my moms marriages, my sister's marriage, and my older brother's marriage. they all turned into hell, they all became abusive, and all ended with a bad ending and much hatred and hostility.

Marriage is kind of meaningless to me until I get my Catholicism back that is.

No doubts we would be bff's! In truth, things sometimes get lost in translation using just words like this medium, and I want you to know, I've always thought good things of you. (even when our friendship hit some bumps)

 

Stay awesome and don't ever go back to religion. It's all a lie.

 

<<<hugs>>>

[Deidre]

And you are 10000% right about marriage. It often changes couples. It seems like for most couples, they are more attentive in the dating stage than when married. I don't want someone to think of me as a comfortable shoe. I suppose it's good to be comfortable with another person but not so comfortable that you stop trying to delight them.

[NeverAgainV]

Too bad we couldn't feel the same way 30 years later as when we begin dating! LOL If I were guaranteed that, then I **might** consider

getting married again...hypothetically. LOL

 

Also,  many are pressured into marriage if the woman gets pregnant, that it's the "right" thing to do....and i've seen

people do that who ended up very miserable. Some divorced- fortunately, others, still together, hating each other and living

separate lives! Sad

 

I know one man who was coerced to get married...really she was SO manipulative and she ended up treating him very badly. he is miserable...

probably going to end in divorce. It's just so sad the way people can treat each other badly. I would never want to gamble on that.

I'm grateful I have a decent husband but we've had some really bad times where I would have walked out, except I had to think of our kids.

 

I think deep down I'm polyamorous, but will not act on it. That's life. Meh

[Vigile]

And you are 10000% right about marriage. It often changes couples. It seems like for most couples, they are more attentive in the dating stage than when married. I don't want someone to think of me as a comfortable shoe. I suppose it's good to be comfortable with another person but not so comfortable that you stop trying to delight them.

 

Maybe I'm a nightmare husband, but I can't imagine trying to keep up with the dating woo for 15, 20, 50 years.  That sounds exhausting and not very enjoyable. 

 

My own marriage has been trying at times.  I think in large part because of cultural differences.  But I don't quite have the same experience as you guys seem to have had with your families.  My parents, my aunts and uncles and both sets of grandparents all had/have what appear to be very happy marriages.  My folks have been together almost 50 years now.  Perhaps they are just comfortable as you say, but I've never once seen them fight and when they talk of one another they always sing praises. 

 

My grandfather was really the cutest.  When I was a kid visiting them, he'd ask me to bring him tea in bed in the a.m.  My grandmother would be in the kitchen cooking and he would just go on and on about how good her cooking was and what a good woman she was.  He didn't care that he embarrassed her and it seemed really genuine. 

[Leo]

No women bashing was intended. But, dating is one of those first impressions things. So I am not employer-bashing, if I am trying to guess what they are wanting to know by their questions during an interview. But we humans are always trying to make a good first, second and third impressions. And I'm not sure how most would be able to transcend that. I think more people are fluid about marriage than many would suggest. There are the ideologues on either extreme, pro or against, and then ... there's the rest of us average types.

[Leo]

See objectophile. Some good documentaries on the subject on Youtube. An interesting sexual interest, seeing as most want some kind of relationship  or response from the other party. But, someone married the Eiffel Tower, so. There ya go.

[♦ nivek ♦]

As far as OP goes we had been together for for three years, when we did finally get permission from State just felt like right thing to do then.
We've collected many more friends and partners in our life and even beds. Big However is she and i have managed to stick together even with all my attempts to fall apart limb by organ.

 

Married? Should I loose her? Again?  Fuck no, no one would have my aged old beat to hell ass.

 

kL

[Deidre]

 

And you are 10000% right about marriage. It often changes couples. It seems like for most couples, they are more attentive in the dating stage than when married. I don't want someone to think of me as a comfortable shoe. I suppose it's good to be comfortable with another person but not so comfortable that you stop trying to delight them.

 

 

Maybe I'm a nightmare husband, but I can't imagine trying to keep up with the dating woo for 15, 20, 50 years.  That sounds exhausting and not very enjoyable. 

 

My own marriage has been trying at times.  I think in large part because of cultural differences.  But I don't quite have the same experience as you guys seem to have had with your families.  My parents, my aunts and uncles and both sets of grandparents all had/have what appear to be very happy marriages.  My folks have been together almost 50 years now.  Perhaps they are just comfortable as you say, but I've never once seen them fight and when they talk of one another they always sing praises. 

 

My grandfather was really the cutest.  When I was a kid visiting them, he'd ask me to bring him tea in bed in the a.m.  My grandmother would be in the kitchen cooking and he would just go on and on about how good her cooking was and what a good woman she was.  He didn't care that he embarrassed her and it seemed really genuine.

Be like your grandfather and all will be well in the world.

It's not dating woo by the way. It's just keeping things interesting and spirited ...not all the time but don't take your wife for granted. That's all.

[Deidre]

Something that is perhaps overlooked is that why you get married is one set of reasons, and at times, especially by very young people, somewhat naive, why you stay married may be for another entirely different set of reasons, more based in reality, and why people divorce may be, often times not verbalized, yet another set of reasons altogether.

That's a good point, and perhaps it has to do with people changing over time? Just basic likes and dislikes? Maybe the things that enthused them at one time, over time changed?

[Deidre]

Too bad we couldn't feel the same way 30 years later as when we begin dating! LOL If I were guaranteed that, then I **might** consider

getting married again...hypothetically. LOL

 

Also, many are pressured into marriage if the woman gets pregnant, that it's the "right" thing to do....and i've seen

people do that who ended up very miserable. Some divorced- fortunately, others, still together, hating each other and living

separate lives! Sad

 

I know one man who was coerced to get married...really she was SO manipulative and she ended up treating him very badly. he is miserable...

probably going to end in divorce. It's just so sad the way people can treat each other badly. I would never want to gamble on that.

I'm grateful I have a decent husband but we've had some really bad times where I would have walked out, except I had to think of our kids.

 

I think deep down I'm polyamorous, but will not act on it. That's life. Meh

It's always sad when I hear stories like that. I think everyone has baggage from childhood if we're honest and if you don't sort it out, you'll drag it all around with you through your adulthood. I know my aversion to marriage is because I had a tough childhood. I don't want to get too close and marriage represents the ultimate in closeness to me. Aside from the fact I don't think it's a good paradigm to follow, my personal baggage plays a part in my negative view of it. Women who trap men by getting pregnant are only selling themselves short. Most likely, they lack a father's love and are willing to do anything to get a man's love even if by deceptive ways. So sad!

 

So polyamorous. How would you describe that for you? Like not being monogamous?

 

No women bashing was intended. But, dating is one of those first impressions things. So I am not employer-bashing, if I am trying to guess what they are wanting to know by their questions during an interview. But we humans are always trying to make a good first, second and third impressions. And I'm not sure how most would be able to transcend that. I think more people are fluid about marriage than many would suggest. There are the ideologues on either extreme, pro or against, and then ... there's the rest of us average types.

 

You're right. Just FYI, you're not bashing. But some men here think that they know everything women think as if they have surveyed them all to reach these conclusions. Lol it's funny, I guess.

 

See objectophile. Some good documentaries on the subject on Youtube. An interesting sexual interest, seeing as most want some kind of relationship or response from the other party. But, someone married the Eiffel Tower, so. There ya go.

Lmao!

 

 

 

 

 

Attempts by humans to marry animals have been recorded.

Can a person marry their vacuum cleaner?

 

That would suck. Get it?!

Punny!

Marriage would suck! Deidre, You and I are friends. we could probably hang out in real life and enjoy each others company very much. But if we lived with each other for multiple decades , we would hate each other! I have little doubt of that! that's what marriage does to people.

It Turns best friends into enemies! I've seen it happen with every marriage in my family;my moms marriages, my sister's marriage, and my older brother's marriage. they all turned into hell, they all became abusive, and all ended with a bad ending and much hatred and hostility.

Marriage is kind of meaningless to me until I get my Catholicism back that is.

No doubts we would be bff's! In truth, things sometimes get lost in translation using just words like this medium, and I want you to know, I've always thought good things of you. (even when our friendship hit some bumps)

Stay awesome and don't ever go back to religion. It's all a lie.

<<<hugs>>>

I've been meaning to talk to you about that! Thank you for reconsidering. Online Relationships can be very rough for those who have trust issues because when you cant read a person's facial expressions, hear their voice, or look into their eyes, it's hard to know when one is being sarcastic, serious, mocking, passionate, monotone, or sincere, which can of course make it difficult to correctly interpret the motives or honesty. Thanks for the hug! It was needed!

 

 

 

And you are 10000% right about marriage.

 

Yea, as a Catholic I would have thought about your views as being crazy but I see eye to eye with you if no Supernatural sentiments are influencing scene. For people like myself, and probably you, trying to live a conventional marriage is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It isn't workable. It wouldn't feel right or comfortable.

glad we settled that.

 

Religion didn't invent marriage btw. It just hijacked it.

 

Are you an atheist....yet?

[Leo]

So I do have an honest question I alluded to earlier, for those who would see marriage go away:

How do we do the civil business of hospital visits, inheritance, and so forth? So Deidre gets sick. How do we know the man wanting to come in and help her is the boyfriend and not some creeper "scoping bettys" at the local hospital? I'm honestly not trying to be hostile. I just have this fixation with figuring out how systems work. I think it's an honest question.

There are societies now experimenting with renewals of the contract every few years, I forget which country that is but anyway. Is there a way we can solidify it so people who care about each other can benefit like this, without indicating permanence?

I am genuinely curious: some people here have quite obviously given this a lot of thought.

[Margee]

 

Past childhood baggage can be a part of this.....

This is such a good point Dee and I am willing to admit this also. My memories in my childhood we're of my father putting my mother up against the wall. We left our home so many times to go to hotels for the night, I thought the hotel was my home also. Drinking did this to our family. Our whole family were dysfunctional. Don't get me wrong, I have lots f good memories also, but the horrible ones tend to stay in the front of your mind.

 

When I got married, it was going to be for life. Not like any of my family, I was going to do it 'right'. Not so. I allowed people into my life that I should have said, 'no thank you' at the second date. As I said earlier in this thread, I would have been sooo proud to celebrate 50 years with the same person. That deserves a friggin' medal as far as I'm concerned. 

[Deidre]

So I do have an honest question I alluded to earlier, for those who would see marriage go away:

How do we do the civil business of hospital visits, inheritance, and so forth? So Deidre gets sick. How do we know the man wanting to come in and help her is the boyfriend and not some creeper "scoping bettys" at the local hospital? I'm honestly not trying to be hostile. I just have this fixation with figuring out how systems work. I think it's an honest question.

There are societies now experimenting with renewals of the contract every few years, I forget which country that is but anyway. Is there a way we can solidify it so people who care about each other can benefit like this, without indicating permanence?

I am genuinely curious: some people here have quite obviously given this a lot of thought.

In cases like this, you're right. It can get sticky.

I'd say the "renewal" of the contract (like a drivers license or any other license) is great idea. I actually could go for that.

Making vows to stay by one person's side forever (to me) is not realistic but there are people who do it.

Some willingly and some not.

 

You seem like you are happily married Leo.

[Deidre]

BO, be careful. People might just think you have a softer side. That was really nice what you posted there. I guess you're right. But, at the end of the day, maybe it boils down to being the marrying kind, or not being the marrying kind.

Here's something...

So, I'm talking with a friend of mine about marriage and such and her dad's friend who's in his mid 50's...recently got married, for the very first time. She said he didn't have a wedding or anything, just a small ceremony. But, he 'finally' met someone worth marrying, was how she put it.

''Worth marrying.'' lol

 

Like sitting on a bench at school dance waiting for that perfect guy to pick you. Ohhhh...I'm worthy!