disillusioned Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 If irrefutable evidence were presented, I would of course accept Christianity as true. In this scenario, I would certainly worship the Christian God. To not do so would be lunacy. The question of love is more complex. My worship would be one of fear. There is something distinctly unsavory about the prospect of compulsory love. So I cannot say I would love this being, but I would certainly worship Him. This is the very definition of a pointless question, however, given that no such evidence exists. Christianity is false. All of the available evidence, and all valid arguments point to this fact. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 sdelsolray i used dictionary definitons not mine you do trust in the dictionary dont you? I think the whole point of Sdelsolray's questions were to determine how you defined those words. It has been the experience of many in the Lion's Den that believers who come here like to play word games by changing definitions to words we are already familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 looks like we have an honest man here Disillusioned i appreciate the response. Of course its all hypothetical and such evidence would never present itself in this day and age but it seems many people avoid i seen avoid the question but you are the only one i know out of 1,000 Atheistts i talked to and said they would worship him and gave a genuien response about how difficult the love part would be. If someone convinced me God didnt exist and that he was evil, I would have no excuse but to beleive he didnt exist and i would be wrong and ashamed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 Crazyguy Fair enough. I can understand why since he was classical conditioned by other people who like to play semantics, thats why i stick with dictionary Human when i say real i mean by the scientific community when i say true i mean by the scientific community I was referring to if the bible was true and real and determined by the scientific community notby me or my opinion evidence of what? evidence that ALL aspects of christianity were true If it was proved true by scientific communtiy ALL aspects fo christianity then it would rule out all other religions, because the bible says there is only one God. I know im dreaming and you are just watching me sleep arent you? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayard Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 If irrefutable evidence were presented, I would of course accept Christianity as true. In this scenario, I would certainly worship the Christian God. To not do so would be lunacy. The question of love is more complex. My worship would be one of fear. There is something distinctly unsavory about the prospect of compulsory love. So I cannot say I would love this being, but I would certainly worship Him. This is the very definition of a pointless question, however, given that no such evidence exists. Christianity is false. All of the available evidence, and all valid arguments point to this fact. Ironically, worshipping the Christian God after being presented with irrefutable evidence that Christianity is true would drastically reduce your chances at salvation. Jesus says in John 20:29, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Consider the vast importance placed on blind faith in Christianity. Rationalists are damned either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 True is different from real… especially in the scientific community. All aspects? From all divergent denominations? How is that supposed to work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 true is different from real? well by definition by not in practice or perhaps you could give examples because im not sure how but listen alll of this is all hypothetical anyway i cannot present this as if it really happened is is going to happen, So i not going to try to use hypotheticals to try and build an phylosphically impenetrable defense theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Human: You are right, the implication is problematic because the antecedent is not well-defined. This is a problem for our resident apologist to solve, not me. When I say I would believe Christianity if irrefutable evidence were presented, I am speaking generally. If any specific branch of Christianity could be proven, I would accept that branch. I regard them all as being equally false. Similarly, if a specific sect of Islam could be proven to be true, I would convert to that sect. I don't know what 1AAT1 means when he says "true" and "real", but for me, these are two very different things. Obviously Christianity is real. I know quite a few Christians. I have been to many different Churches. It is a real religion. That does not make it true. It does not accurately describe reality. It makes claims which are demonstrably false. It leads to contradictions at every turn. 1AAT1: Belief in the existence of a being for which there is no evidence is not rational. You do not need to disprove the existence of such a being in order to decline to believe in it. The question of whether or not God is good is a very different issue, and it is tied heavily to what we mean by "good" and what we mean by "evil". This takes us back to morality, which you have already attempted to discuss at some length in other threads. If you want to revisit this topic, I'm happy to go there, but I don't think you will like where it ends. PariSiamo: You are absolutely right, blind faith is the key. Any Christian who is honest about their beliefs will eventually admit this fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Sure you give hypotheticals and i give hypotheticals nothing wrong with that. Just waiting for someone to say They would love and worship God with all their being if evidence was proved that was was needed. Because evidence is highly respected right? With all their being? That is asking a bit much. See post 175. If God was sufficiently cool and provided an awesome afterlife to everybody then affection for that God would be a natural response. But God would have to have some serious issues to demand love from everyone with all their being. When you do nice things for others it builds a relationship. Warm feelings are natural. But that doesn't mean it is good that people become obsessed with God. Can you see how crazy Christianity is? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 So then why do you guys ask for evidence if you will not change? If it was proven that the bible was true and the bible says he deserves love, then based on that information why would you not change and love him in the event it was true? WHy ask for evidence when nothing will change. I am confused. Yes you are confused. Very confused. Because I can't think of anyone saying he would not change his mind if evidence was there that the bible was true and God did exist and was loving and all. Also the point of us asking you about the evidence isn't the one of us wanting to change...the point is, that there IS NO EVIDENCE but you still claim it to be true and want us to see it the way you see it. And even if there was evidence, how does that make anyone obliged to love God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 i have not assumed anything, i asked questions and I go by the resposnes given to me Again...learn to use quotes or direct your answers to those who you want to address. Is that asked too much of an intelligent being who knows how to use the internet and participate in a forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Keep in mind evidence that he exists is different from evidence that he deserves love. You all admit that you would change if evidence is presented that he EXISTED that is easy ebcause evidence that is the fiber of your being things that a true based on true evidence. but evidence that proves he deserves love, even if that ws presented you wouldnt do it? Well, if he does not exist, how can he deserve love and how can there be evidence to them deserving love? Does Santa deserve love too? And the tooth ferry? I mean, they are truly nice guys...no? Then deserving love? I thought love was unconditional, something you can't earn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Orbit agrees lets see if everyone else does people keep saying im assuming, well test it Here i will break it down...step by step Everyone here believes Evidence is important and doesnt think faith is better than peer reviewed hardcore evidence....Yes or no?.... Sorry, but this looks to me like you are trying to win a case that you lost ages ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 you dont know what important means? realllyyy?? sure i will play thsi game Hahaha, you really crack me up 1AA1. You really should become a stand up comedian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Sure you give hypotheticals and i give hypotheticals nothing wrong with that. Just waiting for someone to say They would love and worship God with all their being if evidence was proved that was was needed. Because evidence is highly respected right? You know 1AA1, when I left Church my understanding of God changed. I did not become atheist right away as I have told you in previous discussions. My take on God became more honest and real. Like how can I have a relationship with a being that I worship? Would it not be hurting God if I worship him? Because worshiping someone means to put yourself down while you lift him up. A loving God would not want you to do that, would he? I mean, a loving father, does he want his child to constantly tell his daddy how great he was? Would a loving father not be like: Whats wrong with you? What do you want from me? That's not relationship, thats theatre. And if God was this loving being who wanted to have relationship with us humans, he certainly did not seek to be worshipped. He would make himself known to us and show love even if this love never came back. That is what unconditional means. Now if I only love him back because there is evidence of him being a loving and good God, how is this love? If you date a girl and she agrees to another date because you are a good and loving guy but she has no real feelings for you...how can this be a good thing? Imagine this girl marrying you and she is having sex with you, not because she truly loves you but because you are a good and loving guy who deserves love...Would that be a good thing? Why is it different when it comes to God? Why should anyone love God just because there is evidence that he is a truly good and loving God who deserves love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 Moanerina you are exactly right evidence never mattered in the first place WHEN it comes to LOVE that is because people still wouldnt love him just because evidence was presented yet they still ask for it. But its to prove his existence not to prove he deserves love. Its fruitless its useless when it comes to love. We dont love our girlfriends based on peer reviewed evidence. we dont love our kids based on peer reviewed evidence. We love because we WANT to we love becasue we have a personal DESIRE to, Not strict rules and expectations. I Love God because i WANT to not out of fear or condemnation. TO take it even further Love and devotion is only real when unfaithfulness or other options is left as a possibility. This was all hypothetical i dont have any evidence you show anyone that would be accepted by the scientific community, but as the end result of this hypotheticals and the responses it shows evidence is useless when it comes to God people still would not love him. IF bible is true then based on what the BIBLE SAYS i should not ignore it, if it was proven true, we should not ignore what is true right? If bible is true Then...... 1 Hell is real as the bible says 2 God is love as the bible says 3 Everything God does is GOOD as the bible says 4. Those who purposely rejects Jesus Christ will perish as the bible says 5. Jesus is the only way to heaven not any other religon the bible says SO Based on this hypothetical evidence if it was EVER presented to be prove the bible TRUE based on irrefutabele evidence by the scientific communtiy and ALL parts of the world... When i was an Atheist and if someone proved to me the bible was true based on evidence accepted by the scientific ommunity then would it be my fault if i didnt believe right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Moanerina you are exactly right evidence never mattered in the first place WHEN it comes to LOVE that is because people still wouldnt love him just because evidence was presented yet they still ask for it. But its to prove his existence not to prove he deserves love. Its fruitless its useless when it comes to love. We dont love our girlfriends based on peer reviewed evidence. we dont love our kids based on peer reviewed evidence. We love because we WANT to we love becasue we have a personal DESIRE to, Not strict rules and expectations. I Love God because i WANT to not out of fear or condemnation. TO take it even further Love and devotion is only real when unfaithfulness or other options is left as a possibility. This was all hypothetical i dont have any evidence you show anyone that would be accepted by the scientific community, but as the end result of this hypotheticals and the responses it shows evidence is useless when it comes to God people still would not love him. IF bible is true then based on what the BIBLE SAYS i should not ignore it, if it was proven true, we should not ignore what is true right? If bible is true Then...... 1 Hell is real as the bible says 2 God is love as the bible says 3 Everything God does is GOOD as the bible says 4. Those who purposely rejects Jesus Christ will perish as the bible says 5. Jesus is the only way to heaven not any other religon the bible says SO Based on this hypothetical evidence if it was EVER presented to be prove the bible TRUE based on irrefutabele evidence by the scientific communtiy and ALL parts of the world... When i was an Atheist and if someone proved to me the bible was true based on evidence accepted by the scientific ommunity then would it be my fault if i didnt believe right? OK...here is the problem with your logic. As long as there is no evidence for God's existence and as you say you don't have any...your so called love is just admiration. Admiration for someone that only exists in your imagination. Nothing else. Because love only happens when you interact with someone. You have some description in your bible and you go: Oh, that sounds like a good guy. A guy I could love. Then you build a whole persona around him, meditating, attributing some psychological experiences to him interacting with you...when in fact it is all IN YOUR HEAD. That is no love. That is craziness. Then, would I love a God based on evidence that HE ACTUALLY EXISTS and he IS TRULY GOOD AND LOVING? Well, if he came to me, interacting with me in a TANGIBLE way, I might do so. But as long as he is a distant and imaginary being that lives somewhere up in the sky...why should I? Love is not something you decide. You can decide to do acts of love. But love itself is or is not. And if he has nothing that activates that love in me, there is no love to give him. This actually is why I came up with the conclusion that it is all imaginary...because if he was love and real and wanted this relationship with me I would say, he would at least have tried to. Now I am sorry to say but I waited, had several "dates" and he never showed up...so I gave up to believe in someone who constantly let me down...and think of him as nonexistent. Get it? And for that one: If bible is true Then...... 1 Hell is real as the bible says 2 God is love as the bible says 3 Everything God does is GOOD as the bible says 4. Those who purposely rejects Jesus Christ will perish as the bible says 5. Jesus is the only way to heaven not any other religon the bible says If you can't see the contradictions even in this five points you make...I really don't know how to continue with this talk... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Moanerina you are exactly right evidence never mattered in the first place WHEN it comes to LOVE that is because people still wouldnt love him just because evidence was presented yet they still ask for it. But its to prove his existence not to prove he deserves love. Its fruitless its useless when it comes to love. We dont love our girlfriends based on peer reviewed evidence. we dont love our kids based on peer reviewed evidence. We love because we WANT to we love becasue we have a personal DESIRE to, Not strict rules and expectations. I Love God because i WANT to not out of fear or condemnation. TO take it even further Love and devotion is only real when unfaithfulness or other options is left as a possibility. This was all hypothetical i dont have any evidence you show anyone that would be accepted by the scientific community, but as the end result of this hypotheticals and the responses it shows evidence is useless when it comes to God people still would not love him. IF bible is true then based on what the BIBLE SAYS i should not ignore it, if it was proven true, we should not ignore what is true right? If bible is true Then...... 1 Hell is real as the bible says 2 God is love as the bible says 3 Everything God does is GOOD as the bible says 4. Those who purposely rejects Jesus Christ will perish as the bible says 5. Jesus is the only way to heaven not any other religon the bible says SO Based on this hypothetical evidence if it was EVER presented to be prove the bible TRUE based on irrefutabele evidence by the scientific communtiy and ALL parts of the world... When i was an Atheist and if someone proved to me the bible was true based on evidence accepted by the scientific ommunity then would it be my fault if i didnt believe right? yes,,, bible is true, because i am a parseltongue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Moanerina you are exactly right evidence never mattered in the first place WHEN it comes to LOVE that is because people still wouldnt love him just because evidence was presented yet they still ask for it. But its to prove his existence not to prove he deserves love. Its fruitless its useless when it comes to love. We dont love our girlfriends based on peer reviewed evidence. we dont love our kids based on peer reviewed evidence. We love because we WANT to we love becasue we have a personal DESIRE to, Not strict rules and expectations. I Love God because i WANT to not out of fear or condemnation. TO take it even further Love and devotion is only real when unfaithfulness or other options is left as a possibility. This was all hypothetical i dont have any evidence you show anyone that would be accepted by the scientific community, but as the end result of this hypotheticals and the responses it shows evidence is useless when it comes to God people still would not love him. IF bible is true then based on what the BIBLE SAYS i should not ignore it, if it was proven true, we should not ignore what is true right? If bible is true Then...... 1 Hell is real as the bible says 2 God is love as the bible says 3 Everything God does is GOOD as the bible says 4. Those who purposely rejects Jesus Christ will perish as the bible says 5. Jesus is the only way to heaven not any other religon the bible says SO Based on this hypothetical evidence if it was EVER presented to be prove the bible TRUE based on irrefutabele evidence by the scientific communtiy and ALL parts of the world... When i was an Atheist and if someone proved to me the bible was true based on evidence accepted by the scientific ommunity then would it be my fault if i didnt believe right? You still don't get it. If the Bible is true, then 1. Hell is real as the Bible says, 2. Those who purposely rejects Jesus Christ will perish as the Bible says, and 3. Jesus is the only way to heaven, not through any other religion, as the Bible says. AND if the three items listed above are true, it is clear that 1. God is NOT love, and 2. Everything God does is NOT good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Moanerina you are exactly right evidence never mattered in the first place WHEN it comes to LOVE that is because people still wouldnt love him just because evidence was presented yet they still ask for it. But its to prove his existence not to prove he deserves love. Its fruitless its useless when it comes to love. We dont love our girlfriends based on peer reviewed evidence. we dont love our kids based on peer reviewed evidence. We love because we WANT to we love becasue we have a personal DESIRE to, Not strict rules and expectations. I Love God because i WANT to not out of fear or condemnation. TO take it even further Love and devotion is only real when unfaithfulness or other options is left as a possibility. This was all hypothetical i dont have any evidence you show anyone that would be accepted by the scientific community, but as the end result of this hypotheticals and the responses it shows evidence is useless when it comes to God people still would not love him. IF bible is true then based on what the BIBLE SAYS i should not ignore it, if it was proven true, we should not ignore what is true right? If bible is true Then...... 1 Hell is real as the bible says 2 God is love as the bible says 3 Everything God does is GOOD as the bible says 4. Those who purposely rejects Jesus Christ will perish as the bible says 5. Jesus is the only way to heaven not any other religon the bible says SO Based on this hypothetical evidence if it was EVER presented to be prove the bible TRUE based on irrefutabele evidence by the scientific communtiy and ALL parts of the world... When i was an Atheist and if someone proved to me the bible was true based on evidence accepted by the scientific ommunity then would it be my fault if i didnt believe right? If the Bible is true, then you shouldn't have a bank account. You shouldn't have a house. You shouldn't have more than the shirt on your back. You shouldn't wonder where your next meal is coming from. You should sever all family ties and focus only on following Jesus (who, by the way, ought to have returned some 2000 years ago). Also, if you notice that someone else is attractive, you are guilty of committing adultery with them. And you'll be able to do greater miracles than Jesus did. This is to say nothing of the fact that if the Bible is true then the earth is 6000 years old, there was a global flood, and all of humankind has descended from a single man and a single woman. You also shouldn't trim your beard. Now please tell me, what sort of evidence could possibly demonstrate that the Bible is true? The notion is utterly absurd. The Bible cannot even in principle be shown to be true, because it has been demonstrated to be inconsistent, incoherent and demonstrably false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 lol i have already stated i dont have evidence accepted by the scientific community this im presenting to everyone here is all hypothetical nothing more You are operating your responses to me based on the real world i am operating off a hypothetical world, So no need to say i dont have evidence, yea i know that lol but hypothetically i am referring to is IF the entire bible was true by by every human being on earth and th scientific community and that God was proved to be loving in all situations, every letter, every word of the bible, no contradictions and that GOD is LOVE and this was proved true without a shadow of a doubt under all circusmtances, despite what you think Regardless of your perceptions of terminology and phrases and concepts. In THIS SCENARIO That is what i am referring to if the entire world was convinced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 lol i have already stated i dont have evidence accepted by the scientific community this im presenting to everyone here is all hypothetical nothing more You are operating your responses to me based on the real world i am operating off a hypothetical world, So no need to say i dont have evidence, yea i know that lol but hypothetically i am referring to is IF the entire bible was true by by every human being on earth and th scientific community and that God was proved to be loving in all situations, every letter, every word of the bible, no contradictions and that GOD is LOVE and this was proved true without a shadow of a doubt under all circusmtances, despite what you think Regardless of your perceptions of terminology and phrases and concepts. In THIS SCENARIO That is what i am referring to if the entire world was convinced So you mean hypothetically...like if the bible is actually a whole other book, a whole other content, a whole other book... So what's the point of your hypothesis other than playing upside down to confuse the conversation because you feel pushed into a corner...sounds like it to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 lol i have already stated i dont have evidence accepted by the scientific community this im presenting to everyone here is all hypothetical nothing more You are operating your responses to me based on the real world i am operating off a hypothetical world, So no need to say i dont have evidence, yea i know that lol but hypothetically i am referring to is IF the entire bible was true by by every human being on earth and th scientific community and that God was proved to be loving in all situations, every letter, every word of the bible, no contradictions and that GOD is LOVE and this was proved true without a shadow of a doubt under all circusmtances, despite what you think Regardless of your perceptions of terminology and phrases and concepts. In THIS SCENARIO That is what i am referring to if the entire world was convinced I understand what you mean. What I am saying is that the Bible as a whole cannot be shown to be true, even hypothetically. In order for this to happen, we would need a different Bible. There are contradictions. There are inconsistencies. There are inaccuracies. There are absurdities. So your question is meaningless. Generally speaking, if a particular book could be demonstrated conclusively to be the inerrant, literal word of God, and this particular God could be demonstrated conclusively to exist and be worthy of love, then yes, I would believe in and love this God. But this cannot happen with the Bible, even hypothetically. If a proposition can be demonstrated to be true, then it makes sense to accept it. But nonsensical propositions cannot be demonstrated to be true. By analogy, consider the statement "this statement is false". It is impossible for for this statement to be shown to be true, even hypothetically. To prove this statement would be to contradict it. Similarly, since the Bible contains contradictions, it cannot be shown to be entirely true, even hypothetically. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1AcceptingAThiest1 Posted August 20, 2014 Author Share Posted August 20, 2014 lol well there you go. This proves that NO amount of evidence will suffice, seeing how we cannot ERASE what the bible has already said. We cannot unlearn So guess thats the end of this hypothetical fiasco sorry if i wasted anyones time but now i know evidence is useless to prove the bible because unless we go abck in time and unwrite the words in a way that fits evidence we would accept. Then it seems evidence is pointless if presented in todays world. Unless someone can show me an example of what kind of evidence would make the bible true lol despite what ahs already been written i rest my case i lose and you win.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 lol well there you go. This proves that NO amount of evidence will suffice, seeing how we cannot ERASE what the bible has already said. We cannot unlearn So guess thats the end of this hypothetical fiasco sorry if i wasted anyones time but now i know evidence is useless to prove the bible because unless we go abck in time and unwrite the words in a way that fits evidence we would accept. Then it seems evidence is pointless if presented in todays world. Unless someone can show me an example of what kind of evidence would make the bible true lol despite what ahs already been written i rest my case i lose and you win So does that mean you understand that the bible is a book of fiction? Good for you. If this is the outcome of this discussion I would say, no time wasted at all. And you don't lose by that, you only win...just in a different way. Also, it is not about winning here, it is about understanding. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts