TheListener Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hi everyone, new guy on the block! I'm here mostly for satisfying my own curiosity and see what other views are out there without having to sift through thousands of pages in books. I look forward to some intelligent discussions as well as light-hearted fun. PS: You guessed it, I am a Christian... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Welcome Listener And I sincerely hope your curiosity will be satisfied. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I see you are from Christianforums. You'll be glad to know that unlike CF, here you can say "fuck" if you feel like it and we won't boot you. Enjoy your stay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ TexasFreethinker ☆ Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Welcome to our forums. I'm looking forward to hearing your viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 I see you are from Christianforums. You'll be glad to know that unlike CF, here you can say "fuck" if you feel like it and we won't boot you. Enjoy your stay That's good to hear Anyhow, thanks for all the welcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Listener, Good place as any to wash up shore at, wonder of the cannibals eat *just* your still beating heart, or like to side it with some fine intestine soups.. I prefer like freshly opened skull suffle' myself, cooked when the body is held Apache style over a small steady flame until the brain is well done.. Damn!! There it goes again, that old "athiest are cannibals" stuff again.. Kinda hard to keep it a secret, well since 60 Minutes did that damnned expose a few years back. ExC is a great community of folks from all over the spectrum of those excaping organized religious experiences. Treat folks with respect and keep the sectarian yammering and fishing down to a bare minimum, be treated return in kind. kevinL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ TexasFreethinker ☆ Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I forgot to ask - what kind of christian are you? Where do you stand on key things like the inerrancy/source of the bible, existance of hell, etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 I forgot to ask - what kind of christian are you? Where do you stand on key things like the inerrancy/source of the bible, existance of hell, etc? Firstly, I don't think atheists are cannibals. Secondly, I come from a muslim background and I was an atheist for years before I came to Christ almost 2 years ago. I'm a Christian and I believe the Bible is God breathed (2 Tim 3:16). Hell is made clear in the Bible and so I believe it exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Interesting. "Hell" as in the New Testament or the Old Testament concept of it? When you say the Bible is God breathed, do you mean that it's word for word written down out of his mouth, or do you leave room that these scribes intertwined it with their own humanness? I just find that “inerrancy” and “God breathed” means different things to different Christian sects. Were you an atheistic Muslim? I.E. – you were born into the religion, but didn’t practice it? What was the thing that convinced you to join Christianity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 "Hell" as in the New Testament or the Old Testament concept of it? What is the Old Testament concept of hell? The Bible has made it clear what hell is and although I haven't studied it in detail I am convinced it is an unpleasant place that is best avoided. When you say the Bible is God breathed, do you mean that it's word for word written down out of his mouth, or do you leave room that these scribes intertwined it with their own humanness? It is inspired by the Holy Spirit and written down by men. Different authors have different styles of writing but the message is clear and has been kept clear. Were you an atheistic Muslim? I.E. – you were born into the religion, but didn’t practice it? What was the thing that convinced you to join Christianity? I was an agnostic muslim but I did go through a phase of getting very involved with it before I turned away from it. The reason I turned away was not based in islam but rather on my own personal life. I sought God and found Him in Jesus. I looked at different religions at the time and Christianity, I found, was real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hi Listener, Welcome. This isn't a place for Christians who don't want their faith shaken. We are ex-Christians for a reason. This isn't a forum of believing other religions or atheism or agnosticism in place of Christianity. It's a forum of how Christianity isn't true and supporting those who no longer believe. If you want to learn from us and about us stick around, but your faith won't be unscathed. Taph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I find it ironic that have such strong convictions about hell (as stated in your first response), and that you believe the Bible to be inspired by God, and yet, you don’t know what the Old Testament say about hell? Mmmm, could it be that you have not investigated all the claims of Christianity? Just wondering, but welcome in any event. Feel free to jump in on any of the topics. I see Apologetics is of interest to you. This is certainly a good site to test your apologetics against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hi Listener, Welcome. This isn't a place for Christians who don't want their faith shaken. We are ex-Christians for a reason. This isn't a forum of believing other religions or atheism or agnosticism in place of Christianity. It's a forum of how Christianity isn't true and supporting those who no longer believe. If you want to learn from us and about us stick around, but your faith won't be unscathed. Taph I'm ok with that. Unless a Christian isn't welcome here of course. I find it ironic that have such strong convictions about hell (as stated in your first response), and that you believe the Bible to be inspired by God, and yet, you don’t know what the Old Testament say about hell? Mmmm, could it be that you have not investigated all the claims of Christianity? Just wondering, but welcome in any event. Feel free to jump in on any of the topics. I see Apologetics is of interest to you. This is certainly a good site to test your apologetics against. I've studied Biblical Theology, I've read the New Testament & studied key parts of it, I've studied parts of the Old Testament and I'm about a third of the way through reading the Old testament. As far as I am aware there is no clear reference to an afterlife YET. I've studied parts of Isaiah, Amos, Daniel, Psalms, and the Torah. Care to give me the references to hell in the OT? I do like apologetics and anything else that gets me thinking about things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hi Listener, Welcome. This isn't a place for Christians who don't want their faith shaken. We are ex-Christians for a reason. This isn't a forum of believing other religions or atheism or agnosticism in place of Christianity. It's a forum of how Christianity isn't true and supporting those who no longer believe. If you want to learn from us and about us stick around, but your faith won't be unscathed. Taph I'm ok with that. Unless a Christian isn't welcome here of course. I find it ironic that have such strong convictions about hell (as stated in your first response), and that you believe the Bible to be inspired by God, and yet, you don’t know what the Old Testament say about hell? Mmmm, could it be that you have not investigated all the claims of Christianity? Just wondering, but welcome in any event. Feel free to jump in on any of the topics. I see Apologetics is of interest to you. This is certainly a good site to test your apologetics against. I've studied Biblical Theology, I've read the New Testament & studied key parts of it, I've studied parts of the Old Testament and I'm about a third of the way through reading the Old testament. As far as I am aware there is no clear reference to an afterlife YET. I've studied parts of Isaiah, Amos, Daniel, Psalms, and the Torah. Care to give me the references to hell in the OT? I do like apologetics and anything else that gets me thinking about things. You are more than welcome here. However, like Nevik said be respectful to us and we will be respectful to you. Also, we like lively debate and we know our stuff. We were once where you are and once upon a time argued your side. Taph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 What is the Old Testament concept of hell? The Bible has made it clear what hell is and although I haven't studied it in detail I am convinced it is an unpleasant place that is best avoided. How do you know? Who told you that? It is inspired by the Holy Spirit and written down by men. Different authors have different styles of writing but the message is clear and has been kept clear. When there are errors and contradictions in the Bible, who are we to blame? The human writers or the Holy Spook? If the human authors made errors, maybe they made other... I was an agnostic muslim but I did go through a phase of getting very involved with it before I turned away from it. The reason I turned away was not based in islam but rather on my own personal life. I'm glad that you left Islam, just a shame that you had to fall in the next religious camp... I sought God and found Him in Jesus. I looked at different religions at the time and Christianity, I found, was real. Good for you. Sorry that I can't agree. But welcome anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 What is the Old Testament concept of hell? The Bible has made it clear what hell is and although I haven't studied it in detail I am convinced it is an unpleasant place that is best avoided. How do you know? Who told you that? It is inspired by the Holy Spirit and written down by men. Different authors have different styles of writing but the message is clear and has been kept clear. When there are errors and contradictions in the Bible, who are we to blame? The human writers or the Holy Spook? If the human authors made errors, maybe they made other... I was an agnostic muslim but I did go through a phase of getting very involved with it before I turned away from it. The reason I turned away was not based in islam but rather on my own personal life. I'm glad that you left Islam, just a shame that you had to fall in the next religious camp... I sought God and found Him in Jesus. I looked at different religions at the time and Christianity, I found, was real. Good for you. Sorry that I can't agree. But welcome anyway. I get my information about God from the Bible. The fact that there are some rather obvious contradictions in the Bible mean it was probably not fabricated. Any lawyer can tell you eyewitness accounts often can contradict each other. But the contradictions are in the details. There are no contradictions about the nature of God or any salvation related issues however there are some finer points open to interpretation. Thats what theology is for. We have brains, we ought to use them. God doesn't treat us as babies, we can think for ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I get my information about God from the Bible. The fact that there are some rather obvious contradictions in the Bible mean it was probably not fabricated. Any lawyer can tell you eyewitness accounts often can contradict each other. But the contradictions are in the details. There are no contradictions about the nature of God or any salvation related issues however there are some finer points open to interpretation. Thats what theology is for. We have brains, we ought to use them. God doesn't treat us as babies, we can think for ourselves. Yes, you should think for yourself. That is very important, and never forget that. But be warned, because if your mind takes you away from God, he will punish you for using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 What is the Old Testament concept of hell? The Bible has made it clear what hell is and although I haven't studied it in detail I am convinced it is an unpleasant place that is best avoided. How do you know? Who told you that? It is inspired by the Holy Spirit and written down by men. Different authors have different styles of writing but the message is clear and has been kept clear. When there are errors and contradictions in the Bible, who are we to blame? The human writers or the Holy Spook? If the human authors made errors, maybe they made other... I was an agnostic muslim but I did go through a phase of getting very involved with it before I turned away from it. The reason I turned away was not based in islam but rather on my own personal life. I'm glad that you left Islam, just a shame that you had to fall in the next religious camp... I sought God and found Him in Jesus. I looked at different religions at the time and Christianity, I found, was real. Good for you. Sorry that I can't agree. But welcome anyway. I get my information about God from the Bible. The fact that there are some rather obvious contradictions in the Bible mean it was probably not fabricated. Any lawyer can tell you eyewitness accounts often can contradict each other. But the contradictions are in the details. There are no contradictions about the nature of God or any salvation related issues however there are some finer points open to interpretation. Thats what theology is for. We have brains, we ought to use them. God doesn't treat us as babies, we can think for ourselves. Any lawyer will also tell you that eyewitness accounts are not reliable because they are too often wrong. Anyway, the Bible (New Testament) doesn't have any eyewitness accounts. Taph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 Any lawyer will also tell you that eyewitness accounts are not reliable because they are too often wrong. Anyway, the Bible (New Testament) doesn't have any eyewitness accounts. Here is a scenario: The FACTS: A bank is robbed. One man is seen running away from it. He is wearing a green shirt. One eye witness states: A man was running away wearing a red shirt. Another says: A man was running away wearing a dark blue shirt. My question: Was the bank robbed or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Any lawyer will also tell you that eyewitness accounts are not reliable because they are too often wrong. Anyway, the Bible (New Testament) doesn't have any eyewitness accounts. True, and the lawyer will also tell you about witness contamination, and how easy it is to plant suggestions in people's mind about it is they are "witnessing." We see this happen all the time, all you have to do is watch a Dateline special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Any lawyer will also tell you that eyewitness accounts are not reliable because they are too often wrong. Anyway, the Bible (New Testament) doesn't have any eyewitness accounts. And being that my father is a lawyer he'll also tell you that "he said she said" accounts are entirely hearsay, which is what the NT is as you pointed out . Although for some reason he stays a Christian anyway I also find it rather odd that Christians decide that if the Bible contradicts it must be true, and if it was perfectly consistent then it must be false. Fortunately for us our legal system doesn't work this way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Any lawyer will also tell you that eyewitness accounts are not reliable because they are too often wrong. Anyway, the Bible (New Testament) doesn't have any eyewitness accounts. Here is a scenario: The FACTS: A bank is robbed. One man is seen running away from it. He is wearing a green shirt. One eye witness states: A man was running away wearing a red shirt. Another says: A man was running away wearing a dark blue shirt. My question: Was the bank robbed or not? The bank was robbed because you said it's a fact the bank is robbed, but does supporting evidence confirm it. The people inside the bank and the tape of the camera would give a better indication than bystanders outside the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 The bank was robbed because you said it's a fact the bank is robbed, but does supporting evidence confirm it. The people inside the bank and the tape of the camera would give a better indication than bystanders outside the bank. Right again. For all we know, it was a security drill the bank ordered from the security company to test the strengths and weaknesses of their system. We need more EVIDENCE before we can make an educated decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Any lawyer will also tell you that eyewitness accounts are not reliable because they are too often wrong. Anyway, the Bible (New Testament) doesn't have any eyewitness accounts. Here is a scenario: The FACTS: A bank is robbed. One man is seen running away from it. He is wearing a green shirt. One eye witness states: A man was running away wearing a red shirt. Another says: A man was running away wearing a dark blue shirt. My question: Was the bank robbed or not? No the story is like this: A group of men say that they heard from another group of men that they had heard from some others that the Bank was robbed some years ago. And their story doesn't corroborate or line up with each other. But a man that lived in the neighborhood at the time the bank was robbed, and was in the vicinity studying robberies, but didn't see or hear this particular one. And the police have no records of it. So was the bank robbed or not? Or did someone just make up the story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taphophilia Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Any lawyer will also tell you that eyewitness accounts are not reliable because they are too often wrong. Anyway, the Bible (New Testament) doesn't have any eyewitness accounts. Here is a scenario: The FACTS: A bank is robbed. One man is seen running away from it. He is wearing a green shirt. One eye witness states: A man was running away wearing a red shirt. Another says: A man was running away wearing a dark blue shirt. My question: Was the bank robbed or not? No the story is like this: A group of men say that they heard from another group of men that they had heard from some others that the Bank was robbed some years ago. And their story doesn't corroborate or line up with each other. But a man that lived in the neighborhood at the time the bank was robbed, and was in the vicinity studying robberies, but didn't see or hear this particular one. And the police have no records of it. So was the bank robbed or not? Or did someone just make up the story? And what about the guy who didn't like robbers until he had a vision of this particular robber after the robber supposedly died who said he robbed this bank and then they guy wrote about robbing banks the way he thought the robber robbed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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