Ouroboros Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Was his name Robert, or did he just go by St Bob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 What is the Old Testament concept of hell? The Bible has made it clear what hell is and although I haven't studied it in detail I am convinced it is an unpleasant place that is best avoided. Prove the doctrine of hell as place of everlasting torture from the OT It is inspired by the Holy Spirit and written down by men. Different authors have different styles of writing So, is the book of mormon is also "holy spirit" inspired book? Many of these authors also wrote other books. Why did those books not get included in the bible? Who decided the canon of the books and on what authority?And why is your canon correct? There is a thread in the colloseum regarding this called "Is Protestant Christianity Credible?" Perhaps you answer these question there. but the message is clear and has been kept clear. Oh really, so perhaps you answer my question Do we or do we not keep the law of the OT? Before you attempt to answer my question, make sure you check the site in my signature The fact that there are some rather obvious contradictions in the Bible mean it was probably not fabricated. Any lawyer can tell you eyewitness accounts often can contradict each other. But the contradictions are in the details. But many of these eyewitness in the court are not guided by the supernatural. In the case of the bible, it is not humans writing a book but God. So you are saying that Holy Spirit/God who allegly created the universe with such precise details fails to inspire accurate details about the most important event in the history of humanity. As someone pointed the Gospels are NOT eyewitness account. And as a christian you should know that. PS:Welcome to the site PS:Welcome to the site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 I get my information about God from the Bible. Ah.. I see. I think it's a little backwards though. I got my information about the Bible, from God. He told me The Bible is Dick and Jane for the Masses, and I believe Him. Took me years to really understand the saying, but it always made sense. I used to think the OT was The Bible and never even considered reading the NT, wasn't a Christian and it always sounded like doublethinking doublespeaking mumbo jumbo. So when I started to research the NT in 4/04 I found confirmation of my earlier thoughts, and learn a whole lot more than I EVER expected. Unfortunately it also spit the OT out the window too, so now the Entire bible has been shown for what it is. Tradition vs. History: They tell you not to ask questions, just believe and obey... because if you ask questions you find out the History, you're only supposed to keep the Tradition. Sorry, not for me. I have questions and if you can't answer them without going around in circles, dancing, handwaving, or doing the hokey pokey, then I don't need to hear what you have to say any more. The fact that there are some rather obvious contradictions in the Bible mean it was probably not fabricated. Right, wasn't fabricated. Just Wrong. Any lawyer can tell you eyewitness accounts often can contradict each other. But the contradictions are in the details. There are no contradictions about the nature of God or any salvation related issues however there are some finer points open to interpretation. Thats what theology is for. We have brains, we ought to use them. God doesn't treat us as babies, we can think for ourselves. Well, there are no eyewitness accounts, especially if you're talking about the anonymously authored books known as the Gospels. Welcome to Ex-C anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Any lawyer will also tell you that eyewitness accounts are not reliable because they are too often wrong. Anyway, the Bible (New Testament) doesn't have any eyewitness accounts. And being that my father is a lawyer he'll also tell you that "he said she said" accounts are entirely hearsay, which is what the NT is as you pointed out . Although for some reason he stays a Christian anyway I also find it rather odd that Christians decide that if the Bible contradicts it must be true, and if it was perfectly consistent then it must be false. Fortunately for us our legal system doesn't work this way Or math and chemistry books! Apparently you have all the typical Tradition Answers, if you stick around here you may have more to learn, but not much to teach (that we haven't already heard at least 1000 times before). i.e. PRATTs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 Well thanks for all the welcomes anyway. And just to make a point clear, there is not one question above that myself or another Christian hasn't heard & answered before. They can be found in the forums General Apologetics section of christianforums. Seeing that the usual atheist/agnostic tactic of overwhelming numbers of questions are being used I will politely ask that if you are genuinely interested in these answers feel free to ask them one at a time or refer to the website I just mentioned. I'm happy to keep browsing this site in case I come across anything new or interesting and I will jump in and make the odd comment too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderbolt Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Well thanks for all the welcomes anyway. And just to make a point clear, there is not one question above that myself or another Christian hasn't heard & answered before. They can be found in the forums General Apologetics section of christianforums. Seeing that the usual atheist/agnostic tactic of overwhelming numbers of questions are being used I will politely ask that if you are genuinely interested in these answers feel free to ask them one at a time or refer to the website I just mentioned. I'm happy to keep browsing this site in case I come across anything new or interesting and I will jump in and make the odd comment too. That's the problem. We already know the boilerplate answers of the apologists - they just don't wash. I doubt that there is anything in CF that is worth consideration, but I might be wrong. I just don’t care for that site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Ah, good, we didn't scare you away! And no, I don't think you have heard all questions yet, and answered all of them. I'm fairly certain about it. And your answer about Adam and Eve just doesn't hold water, is not logical and extremely contradictory. But I will play nice, and I will go to CF to see if they answered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 Ah, good, we didn't scare you away! And no, I don't think you have heard all questions yet, and answered all of them. I'm fairly certain about it. And your answer about Adam and Eve just doesn't hold water, is not logical and extremely contradictory. But I will play nice, and I will go to CF to see if they answered it. No, but I am sensing a bit of hostility from some posters. I'll try to ignore them. I think the answer about Adam and Eve makes sense if you think about it. It is not just a concept or a mathematical equation on paper. It is (probably) an allegory of REAL people who made REAL decisions with REAL consequences. Look at the way God talks to people in the Old and New Testaments. He never patronises us with baby talk, he speaks to us intelligently almost as though we are equals (which we are not). Then why is it surprising that adam & Eve were not treated as babies but had to reap the consequences of their disobedience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 *gently sharpens claws* Should I join in... or would that be cruel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 Oh, regarding hostility, you have seen nothing yet! We eat baby christians for breakfast... j/k! You're still missing the point about A&E, and that's too bad. So we'll leave it at that, and one day it might dawn on you what's wrong in that picture. Right now you can't see it because your goggles are on. *oopsie* C-T leaped in with his claws and took a bite before I posted my response! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 *gently sharpens claws* Should I join in... or would that be cruel? Yikes! Anyways, different life experiences and different perceptions might explain our different perceptions on A&E. However, it is an interesting point to ponder but keep in mind what I said about the first 11 chapters of Genesis. Of course this is a subjective view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 23, 2006 Share Posted January 23, 2006 The idea of interpeting the OT as allegories are not new, but actually predates even Christianity. It's mostly the Christian sect that has made the effort of taking the whole Bible literary. We have Christians on this site that read A&E as stories and nothing else. And one might wonder what kind of chemicals or physics that were involved in a fruit that could develop the frontal lobe brain mass in an instant... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 23, 2006 Author Share Posted January 23, 2006 The idea of interpeting the OT as allegories are not new, but actually predates even Christianity. It's mostly the Christian sect that has made the effort of taking the whole Bible literary. We have Christians on this site that read A&E as stories and nothing else. And one might wonder what kind of chemicals or physics that were involved in a fruit that could develop the frontal lobe brain mass in an instant... lol frontal-brain-mass growing fruits... lol... I've never seen any such thing in this world. Anyway, I want to make clear my point of view. The old testament has different writings in it and each writing has to be dealt with according to what it is. You can't see Deuteronomy as a poem nor can you see Amos as a narative. These are clear. As for Genesis 1-11 as I said before I am agnostic and so are many others. Although if God did create the world in 6 days and make it in its mature form it would not surprise me the least bit. But I am indeed agnostic about that issue and my salvation does not depend on it. The point is there are things to learn from these writings in Genesis, big lessons to be learnt. Look at the lessons not how a fruit grows a frontal lobe of your brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 And what is the lesson of Adam and Eve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 To put it simply: God created everything and when He created everything it was very good. The world is not the way it is meant to be, sin has destroyed the relationships between people and God, people and people, and people and the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 To put it simply: God created everything and when He created everything it was very good. The world is not the way it is meant to be, sin has destroyed the relationships between people and God, people and people, and people and the earth. Did God create the snake, and was the snake good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Did God create the snake, and was the snake good? If you are going on the tangent of "God created evil" then you don't need to convince me. God did create everything and is sovereign over everything. nothing happens without His permission or knowledge. Make no mistake. God is not a fuzzy-bunny He is an ever consuming fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Ok... I see I don't need to join in yet. Han... give me a shout when you need to turn him over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Did God create the snake, and was the snake good? If you are going on the tangent of "God created evil" then you don't need to convince me. God did create everything and is sovereign over everything. nothing happens without His permission or knowledge. Make no mistake. God is not a fuzzy-bunny He is an ever consuming fire. Actually I was going more in the direction that not everything was "all good". If God created the snake and it was all good, then evil is good. Maybe your view is that evil didn't exist until A&E ate the fruit? The snake wasn't bad or evil, but when the fruit was eaten, that's when the No-good came into being. It was created by man and not the devil. Ok... I see I don't need to join in yet. Han... give me a shout when you need to turn him over. Oh, absolutely. When we need to raise the temperature, I'll call the BBQ-Chef-master in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Actually I was going more in the direction that not everything was "all good". If God created the snake and it was all good, then evil is good. Maybe your view is that evil didn't exist until A&E ate the fruit? The snake wasn't bad or evil, but when the fruit was eaten, that's when the No-good came into being. It was created by man and not the devil. Has it occured to you the snakes sin might have preceeded sin falling into mankind? Does that mean when God created everything it wasn't all good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saviourmachine Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 About discrepancies in the bible. You found no new one? What about the anachronistic speech of Gamaliel in Acts. 5? Supposedly around 30 CE. However we know from Josephus that Fadus was procurator of Judea from 44 to 46. What is the actual problem is that Luke let Paul say that Judas was after Theudas. And he dated the revolt of Judas during the census. So, that dates Fadus around 0-6 CE. That's definitely not the case. Apparently, Luke was able to place words in name of Paul, that he couldn't have spoken. To put it simply: God created everything and when He created everything it was very good. The world is not the way it is meant to be, sin has destroyed the relationships between people and God, people and people, and people and the earth.Several questions: Why do animals suffer because some of our human ancestors made a mistake against his and her owner? Could the punishment have been a bit less devastating? That supposed creator provided us with sense for pain. We can retract our limbs when we feel pain. And we can feel pain in a gradual way. Someone should get an opportunity to learn what bad and good is, isn't it? Small mistake -> small punishment, small good deed -> small reward. I wouldn't design a dilemma of life or death for my son, but learn him step by step. What has our creator to change to make the world from very good to very bad? What adaptions did he made to the bowels of predators? What fighting instruments did he provide, claws, teeth? Did he enjoy creating them? And the lots of detrimental bacteria and virii. Our creator suddenly got a lot of paperwork to do right after the fall, isn't it? What is good? To do perfectly right all day? Boring thought! Does our creator only wants human pets? I have made use of my brain to leave the xian faith. The real creator should feel delightful seeing that. I'm grown up! Let the real creator please stand up. Aren't you proud of your son? I think the real God likes to be at www.ex-christian.net. He's an atheist, just like me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Actually I was going more in the direction that not everything was "all good". If God created the snake and it was all good, then evil is good. Maybe your view is that evil didn't exist until A&E ate the fruit? The snake wasn't bad or evil, but when the fruit was eaten, that's when the No-good came into being. It was created by man and not the devil. Has it occured to you the snakes sin might have preceeded sin falling into mankind? Does that mean when God created everything it wasn't all good? Exactly, then it wasn't all good. Or if I understand you right, it happened it this progression: 1. God created all, and it was all good, and he created Satan 2. Satan created sin (God being the creator of sin by proxy) 3. Humans fell for temptation (in the trap God had set for them) So what was the lesson from Adam and Eve eating the fruit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Exactly, then it wasn't all good. Or if I understand you right, it happened it this progression: 1. God created all, and it was all good, and he created Satan 2. Satan created sin (God being the creator of sin by proxy) 3. Humans fell for temptation (in the trap God had set for them) So what was the lesson from Adam and Eve eating the fruit? Actually my point was that when everything was created it was all good. Sin destroyed and distorted everything. About discrepancies in the bible. You found no new one? What about the anachronistic speech of Gamaliel in Acts. 5? Supposedly around 30 CE. However we know from Josephus that Fadus was procurator of Judea from 44 to 46. What is the actual problem is that Luke let Paul say that Judas was after Theudas. And he dated the revolt of Judas during the census. So, that dates Fadus around 0-6 CE. That's definitely not the case. Apparently, Luke was able to place words in name of Paul, that he couldn't have spoken. To put it simply: God created everything and when He created everything it was very good. The world is not the way it is meant to be, sin has destroyed the relationships between people and God, people and people, and people and the earth.Several questions: Why do animals suffer because some of our human ancestors made a mistake against his and her owner? Could the punishment have been a bit less devastating? That supposed creator provided us with sense for pain. We can retract our limbs when we feel pain. And we can feel pain in a gradual way. Someone should get an opportunity to learn what bad and good is, isn't it? Small mistake -> small punishment, small good deed -> small reward. I wouldn't design a dilemma of life or death for my son, but learn him step by step. What has our creator to change to make the world from very good to very bad? What adaptions did he made to the bowels of predators? What fighting instruments did he provide, claws, teeth? Did he enjoy creating them? And the lots of detrimental bacteria and virii. Our creator suddenly got a lot of paperwork to do right after the fall, isn't it? What is good? To do perfectly right all day? Boring thought! Does our creator only wants human pets? I have made use of my brain to leave the xian faith. The real creator should feel delightful seeing that. I'm grown up! Let the real creator please stand up. Aren't you proud of your son? I think the real God likes to be at www.ex-christian.net. He's an atheist, just like me. I can't comment on the historical details of Acts as I've not studied Roman history. Even if there were such a conflict of 20 or so years difference I would tend to take the Bible's Word rather than human findings. As for your other questions, keep things in context of creation/fall/redemption/new creation. You will see they are petty and earth-centered ideas. No offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Exactly, then it wasn't all good. Or if I understand you right, it happened it this progression: 1. God created all, and it was all good, and he created Satan 2. Satan created sin (God being the creator of sin by proxy) 3. Humans fell for temptation (in the trap God had set for them) So what was the lesson from Adam and Eve eating the fruit? Actually my point was that when everything was created it was all good. Sin destroyed and distorted everything. First of all, you do realize that the progression I gave you is not supported by the Bible, but is invented to make a rationalization of a story that doesn't add up. So the story doesn't teach you this, since you have to make that up outside the story. The story say "it was all good", and the "serpent was more subtil than any beast". And nothing to explain how that was possible. But anyway... lets move on... Next, I assume you agree to that God was aware that the humans would fail the test, right? And God was aware that Satan would invent evil, and yet he created Satan, and he also created the fruit and put it as a temptation for he humans and knew they would fail. So God was the inventor and architect of this scheme, but still it is supposed to be all good. It was a setup from the beginning, and the failure of humanity was intented effect. So let's move on and look at the snake, in what way was he evil? Did he really lie about the fruit, or did he tell the truth? And was God truthful and completely honest in what he said? (Btw, I find it intriguing to talk to you. ) (Hi Mythra, I see you on the line down there... wanna play? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheListener Posted January 24, 2006 Author Share Posted January 24, 2006 Yes yes and yes. God knew it all. What is the point? I refer you back to Romans chapters 8 and 9 again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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