Hello Their New Bee Hear!

[SkepticOfBible]

Every question above is answered a million times before

Well the problem is that every christian answers it in a different way. Which is why I am asking you? Surely you are not denying that the holy spirit is telling the every christian something else?Why is it that no two christian cannot come to consensus about these major issue

 

I am interested to hear your view, because that will make me understand you and where you stand on your theology.

 

Do you think my question are not valid?

 

What question did I ask that I ran away from?

 

You never even attempted to answer mine

 

Genesis 12:1-3 God declares his ultimate purpose to bring all people into a relationship with him.

 

Genesis 12:1-3

1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you.

 

2 "I will make you into a great nation

and I will bless you;

I will make your name great,

and you will be a blessing.

 

3 I will bless those who bless you,

and whoever curses you I will curse;

and all peoples on earth

will be blessed through you."

 

I don't think so. He is specificaly talking to Abraham. Where is your God talking to Humanity?

 

Jeremiah declares the coming of the New Covenant.

 

And we have been through this. This Reaffirmed Convenant of Jer has not come to pass

 

 

I have read about the canon of the OT & the canon of the NT, I haven't seen anything about any secular interference.

 

And who gets to decide what goes in the canon, god or human? So you want to imply that for 1500 years the holy spirit was mum about the whole issue? So right now once again those christian with wrong set of canon/belief are right now in hell?

 

Either way the Bible doesn't give exact dates (except for Jesus' crucifiction) and so we must stick to that.

 

Really where can I find the date of Jesus crucification. I thought christians are still figuring it out

[Caretaker]

Seek God with all your heart and you too will find him. Then you will see what I mean.

This is where we differ. To me, the heart is nothing more than an organ that pumps blood. Also, what the heck am I looking for? If you were an officer, would you not want a description of a suspect that you are looking for? Of all the times that I have been told to search for him, I have not been given any concrete details of his existence.

 

How in the world does a police officer hunt down a suspect when the witness only says that he exists without giving any details?

[TheListener]

pritishd I gave you the answers to that, you were not convinced.

 

Have another look at Gen 12:3.

 

As for the Jeremiah passage keep Jesus and Acts 12 in context as well as Jesus' 2nd coming, it does fit.

 

Seek God with all your heart and you too will find him. Then you will see what I mean.

This is where we differ. To me, the heart is nothing more than an organ that pumps blood. Also, what the heck am I looking for? If you were an officer, would you not want a description of a suspect that you are looking for? Of all the times that I have been told to search for him, I have not been given any concrete details of his existence.

 

How in the world does a police officer hunt down a suspect when the witness only says that he exists without giving any details?

 

It is a spiritual experience. Not always a physical one.

[SkepticOfBible]

pritishd I gave you the answers to that, you were not convinced.

 

The only answer you gave was "I am not gonna answer you

 

Have another look at Gen 12:3.

 

I have, and my position is the same

 

As for the Jeremiah passage keep Jesus and Acts 12 in context as well as Jesus' 2nd coming, it does fit.

 

There isn't any verse which supports that the messiah would come twice

[thunderbolt]

And you have still not answered us about the failed prophesy of Jeremiah.

[TheListener]

Read a bit of Josh McDowell for OT references to Jesus. I also recomend Graham Goldsworthy's "Gospel and Kingdom". The second book is a suggested reading in some of the worlds finest theological courses by the way.

 

And you have still not answered us about the failed prophesy of Jeremiah.

 

 

No, I answered it but you chose to disagree.

[SkepticOfBible]

Read a bit of Josh McDowell for OT references to Jesus.

 

What are they?

 

And show me the verse where it says that messiah would come twice?All the messianic prophecies show that it is gonna be a one time event.

 

Ps:I don't consider Josh McDowell to be scholar. He uses bad methodolgies to prove his point.

[BlueGiant]

And Jesus has a credible source outside a rather dubious collection of texts consolidated into one volume?

 

And in reference to your comment about "swarming" take a look: you are something of an oddity here. You directly challenge a board with nearly 2,000 members and are surprised when a whole lot of people respond? If your are, I do specialize in Booklyn real-estate, especially areas that span over water...

[thunderbolt]

No, I answered it but you chose to disagree.

Correct, I disagree with your interpretation of it. It doesn't stand the test of prophecy that succeeded - it's pretty obvious. So, perhaps you are the one that disagrees - or at least, you have not provide any valid reasons why this prophecy did not fail. The burden is on you. That's how debates work. You raised the prohecy, you need to prove it.

[TheListener]

Ps:I don't consider Josh McDowell to be scholar. He uses bad methodolgies to prove his point.

 

According to who?

 

No, I answered it but you chose to disagree.

Correct, I disagree with your interpretation of it. It doesn't stand the test of prophecy that succeeded - it's pretty obvious. So, perhaps you are the one that disagrees - or at least, you have not provide any valid reasons why this prophecy did not fail. The burden is on you. That's how debates work. You raised the prohecy, you need to prove it.

 

 

You want me to convince you? I can't do that, you need to read up on Biblical Theology to understand it. And pray that God reveal Himself to you.

[crazy-tiger]

Ps:I don't consider Josh McDowell to be scholar. He uses bad methodolgies to prove his point.

 

According to who?

Anyone with an ounce of integrity who doesn't desperately want him to be correct...

 

 

You know... the only way you could make things worse at this point is to reference DrDino or Jason Gastrich...

[thunderbolt]

You want me to convince you? I can't do that, you need to read up on Biblical Theology to understand it. And pray that God reveal Himself to you.

No, that's not how it works. There is nothing that God needs to reveal, because

a ) he/she/it is incapable, and

b ) it's written plain and clear.

 

There is nothing to decode in that prophecy. Stop ducking, or find another place to be curious about. Again, YOU raised the prophecy, so if it contains some “hidden” meaning, then the burden is on YOU to decode it for us. But there is no such a hidden meaning – the "hidden" meaning only exist in your mind.

 

I think I am done with you – you clearly only want to Listen™ to yourself.

 

Cheers!

[MQTA]

i think its a little sad the exchristians know more about christianity than the christians.

damn if your gonna be in a religion atleast research it and know about it.

The ultimate in ironies.. everything they point a finger at to others has 3 fingers pointing back at them. doublethink doublespeak and doublestandard

 

amazing.

 

 

I'm stll amazed at the RAEL video I watched yesterday.. not sure about the 1973/1975 details, but the hypothesis sure sounds feasible

 

http://www.rael.org/e107_plugins/raeltv_me....php?4.fast.wmp

 

 

 

 

When Osiris is said to bring his believers eternal life in Egyptian Heaven, contemplating the unutterable, indescribable glory of God, we understand that as a myth.

 

When ancient writers tell us that in general ancient people believed in eternal life, with the good going to the Elysian Fields and the not so good going to Hades, we understand that as a myth.

 

When Vespatian's spittle healed a blind man, we understand that as a myth.

 

When Apollonius of Tyana raised a girl from death, we understand that as a myth.

 

When the Pythia , the priestess at the Oracle at Delphi, in Greece, prophesied, and over and over again for a thousand years, the prophecies came true, we understand that as a myth.

 

When Dionysus turned water into wine, we understand that as a myth.

 

When Dionysus believers are filled with atay, the Spirit of God, we understand that as a myth.

 

When Romulus is described as the Son of God, born of a virgin, we understand that as a myth.

 

When Alexander the Great is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth.

 

When Augustus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth.

 

When Dionysus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, we understand that as a myth.

POCM

 

But when Jesus is described as the Son of God, born of a mortal woman, according to prophecy, turning water into wine, raising girls from the dead, and healing blind men with his spittle, and setting it up so His believers got eternal life in Heaven contemplating the unutterable, indescribable glory of God, and off to Hades...er, I mean Hell...for the bad folks...that's not a myth?

 

 

NOW YOU GOT IT!

 

Whatever really happened, we got it all wrong back then. Once you build upon false premises, they don't get any truer as time goes on. Just more fantastic.

 

 

 

If you say so...

Anyone else see this as a "you may say so, but I don't agree and I'm right and you're wrong, so there..." kind of response?

Well, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

 

 

"I'll PrEy for you"

 

 

 

 

Ps:I don't consider Josh McDowell to be scholar. He uses bad methodolgies to prove his point.

 

ah, ok, so there's no intelligence behind the beliefs. It's all what Tradition says, HL&S, and that's that.

 

You have to seek in your heart, not your brain. No THINKING allowed! Just emotionalism and Paulianity.

[SkepticOfBible]

No, I answered it but you chose to disagree.

Correct, I disagree with your interpretation of it. It doesn't stand the test of prophecy that succeeded - it's pretty obvious. So, perhaps you are the one that disagrees - or at least, you have not provide any valid reasons why this prophecy did not fail. The burden is on you. That's how debates work. You raised the prohecy, you need to prove it.

 

Even if he wants to claim that prophecy has come to pass. He fails to see that prophecy fails to see there no mention of any type of human sacrifice needed to die for the sins of others.

 

On the contrary that prophecy clearly undermines jesus

 

Jer 31:31

But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

 

As the above verse says in the days of the new covenant, each person will die for their own sin.

 

This is confirmed by Ezek 18:20-28, where God declares that each man will die for his own sin and will redeem himself through his own actions and faithful obedience to God's Law.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

And for a sovereign God do you think the canon was a problem?

 

I will read more about the Canon but I will probably interpret things differently because I will be prayerful that God give me discernment.

 

PS: I don't have a problem with the Catholic Church, it is not my job to judge.

I recommend The New Testament : A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings by Bart D. Ehrman. He's a christin author, but he's also not afraid to admit where there are problems with the NT. Read it if you're interested in an unbiased account of how the NT was formed.

 

[webmdave]

I'm here mostly for satisfying my own curiosity and see what other views are out there without having to sift through thousands of pages in books.

 

 

Then today at 01:43 AM:

...you need to read up on...

 

 

That pretty much sums it up doesn't it?

 

Even when I was a Christian, the intellectual laziness of my co-believers was a constant trial of my patience.

 

 

You're disingenuous "LISTENER." You are here for one reason and one reason alone - to proselytize - you are obviously not here to listen. Oh, and since books are something you appear lest than interested in actually reading, here is what disingenuous means: not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating - pretending to be unaware.

 

You could also loosely insert a simple definition...liar.

[Lycorth]

I'm here mostly for satisfying my own curiosity and see what other views are out there without having to sift through thousands of pages in books.

 

 

Then today at 01:43 AM:

...you need to read up on...

 

 

That pretty much sums it up doesn't it?

 

Even when I was a Christian, the intellectual laziness of my co-believers was a constant trial of my patience.

 

 

You're disingenuous "LISTENER." You are here for one reason and one reason alone - to proselytize - you are obviously not here to listen. Oh, and since books are something you appear lest than interested in actually reading, here is what disingenuous means: not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating - pretending to be unaware.

 

You could also loosely insert a simple definition...liar.

 

So very typical of his sort of people. Too lazy to "sift through" anything but always ready to point and lecture and nag everyone else to read this and do that. Yet another self-absorbed, self-deluded, lying Xian spiritual dope-pusher.

[Lycorth]

Well, if thats the case why enter the posts here at all?

 

Precisely. Either he's got a hard-on about getting into a scuffle with us hellbound heathens for the sake of Jeebus or his brain is still working in the background and is drawn to the reasonable arguments and evidence found in a place like this. Curiosity could be nagging at him despite his brainwashing; I was like that myself once. Despite my heavy brainwashing, I was drawn to ideas like the ones expressed here and one day just couldn't continue being dishonest with myself and had to dump Xianity for good.

 

My guess is someday, maybe he will, too...

[Antlerman]

You want me to convince you? I can't do that, you need to read up on Biblical Theology to understand it. And pray that God reveal Himself to you.

Damn! I have to jump in here... Read up on theology? Done that: Bible College graduate 3.91 GPA. Teacher; preacher; evangelist; apologist. Good enough? Next and more importantly: "pray that God reveal himself to you"?

 

Umm, think about that statement please. Let me restate that and you tell me if this is how you mean it: "If you pray to God to be able to see it, if you really want to see it, and read it really wanting to see it, then you will." Answer: Of course you will. What else would you expect approaching something with an emotional desire to believe? You're going to find whatever you need to confirm yourself. Think about it.

 

You should say, read it with an open mind, and then the evidence should speak for itself. But the fact that you don't say that - says the real story. I'm thinking down inside you know it can't speak for itself and that's why you instruct people to approach it with an emotion bias. IMHO.

[Vigile]

I get my information about God from the Bible.

 

The fact that there are some rather obvious contradictions in the Bible mean it was probably not fabricated. Any lawyer can tell you eyewitness accounts often can contradict each other. But the contradictions are in the details. There are no contradictions about the nature of God or any salvation related issues however there are some finer points open to interpretation. Thats what theology is for. We have brains, we ought to use them. God doesn't treat us as babies, we can think for ourselves.

 

First you claim to believe that scripture is god breathed, quoting Tim. It also says in your holy book that not one jot nor tittle shall pass away until the words there in are fulfilled. It also says that your god is perfect. There seems to be some contradictions in your beliefs.

 

Nevertheless, your standard for determining whether the book is true is a rather odd one. You recognize that there are obvious contradictions and you claim that this makes the book more true? The same could be said for almost any book. Why am I surprised though, your cognitive dissonance, like that of your brethren, is most profound.

[Guest thirstforknowledge]

Umm, think about that statement please. Let me restate that and you tell me if this is how you mean it: "If you pray to God to be able to see it, if you really want to see it, and read it really wanting to see it, then you will." Answer: Of course you will. What else would you expect approaching something with an emotional desire to believe? You're going to find whatever you need to confirm yourself. Think about it.

 

 

I think this is so important. If you go into any situation, wanting to believe something, chances are you'll end up believing it. In my Wicca phase, I really believed that I was doing magic, and that my spells worked.

 

How fucking stupid.

 

Some of it is cognitive dissonance. Even if the facts say something different, you will automatically filter those facts out.

 

Some of it is interpretation. If you want to believe something, you'll interpret anything to the point that it fits with what you want to believe. This is psych 101 stuff.

 

The true test of truth, is if something shows itself to you when you don't already believe it, not the other way around.

 

That's just bad logic.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Oh this is getting down right comedic!

I swear this guy is just yanking our chains here...

 

 

Is this one of our regulars playing a prank?

 

c-t

 

It is a standalone IP address that is not one of our regulars, nor any proxy i am aware of.

 

Listener seems to be a legit IP address.

 

As to their level of desire for participation, I don't have access to Easy Answer Jar for that question.

 

kL

[white_raven23]

if the story of jesus is similar to older stories of older gods then it proves it was borrowed from their.

just like them they cant be proven fact or fiction.

 

 

 

 

Just like horis huh? Credible piece of story that was...

 

 

 

Care to provide CREDIBLE evidence on that?

 

horus/horis whatever I've seen it and wasn't impressed at first until I found out his so called characteristics almost identical to Jesus did not exist anywhere outside of a couple of dubious websites.

 

A COUPLE?

 

Ooookay......

 

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm (this one was already mentioned)

http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJesusandHorus74.htm

http://www.livingstonemusic.net/godmen.htm

http://tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen046.html

http://www.uce.ca/ministry/sermon_archive/...paganchrist.htm

http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html

http://quinnell.us/religion/reasons/jesus.html

http://framingbusiness.net/php/2004/jesushorus.php

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/horus.htm

http://members.aol.com/matt103436/Facts.htm

http://perdurabo10.tripod.com/id306.html

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins4.htm

http://altreligion.about.com/library/texts...ricaljesus4.htm

http://stupidreligion.com/?p=58

http://www.perankhgroup.com/the_true_identity_of_jesus.htm

http://www.fsaunited.london.on.ca/Worship/20051113.html

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/out-of-egypt.html

http://www.virtual-egyptian-museum.org/Col...VS.00400.html&0

 

 

Okay......I'm tired of pasting....there are lots more....

 

Oh....and books...*sigh* may as well paste those too since you may think the entire internet is suspect....

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/142535107...glance&n=283155

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006052655...glance&n=283155

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/060980798...glance&n=283155

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/140004594...glance&n=283155

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/188694008...glance&n=283155

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157392758...glance&n=283155

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/093281374...glance&n=283155

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/193188231...glance&n=283155

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/096448734...glance&n=283155

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/096892591...glance&n=283155

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/081269567...glance&n=283155

 

 

 

Okay...I have to go to work now...or I'd continue.

[Vixentrox]

Anyone notice he pointed us to do research on theology when earlier, either in this thread or another he kept rejecting other theologians beliefs on what the scriptures mean? Seems to me what he's saying is, "study but only if you will agree with MY interuptation". What a loser. You know, the holy spirit sure works in mysterious ways to give so many people contrary beliefs out of the same supposedly god insired book.

[white_raven23]

You should say, read it with an open mind, and then the evidence should speak for itself. But the fact that you don't say that - says the real story. I'm thinking down inside you know it can't speak for itself and that's why you instruct people to approach it with an emotion bias. IMHO.

 

Heh Heh.

 

Reminds me of a quote from Spock's World.....I'm probably paraphrasing a bit as the book is not right in front of me....

 

"NO data speaks for itself! Data just lies there. People speak. The phrase "speaks for itself" always translates into: "If I don't say something about this....no one will notice it."" - Dr. Leonard McCoy