Christianity And Personal Responsibility

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Sticks and stones may break my bones but the cosmology police will never hurt me. I thought I would be surprised to find that you keep records on yourself, but...

 

I'm going to leave you alone so you may grieve Spock properly.

 

Sticks and stones?

 

But I didn't call you any names, End.  You're the expert in name-calling and personal insults, not me.

 

You have 28 mins left.

 

I'm going to need you to prove through documentation that you have not made any factual claims in this arena. You got on a kick there in a few threads back about how you could prove this and that. If you don't have proof, I hesitate to retract.

 

 

So be it.  

 

If the definition of stupidity is the failure to learn thru experience, then perhaps one day you'll learn that I NEVER bluff.

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This is the thread, which was started off by Brother Jeff, not by me.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/62672-big-bang-discovery-opens-doors-to-the-multiverse/#.VPDjjPmsUuk

 

I first contribute in post # 8, like this...

 

Posted 27 May 2014 - 02:22 PM

Joshpantera, on 26 May 2014 - 8:53 PM, said:

BAA in 3, 2, 1.....

 

...and BAA will sound a note of caution.

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VERY IMPORTANT POINT TO REMEMBER! 

 

The BICEP2 result, which appears to indicate that we inhabit some kind of Inflation-driven multiverse is...

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... p - r - e - l - i - m - i - n - a - r - y .      

 

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Any bona fide detection MUST be reproduced and independently verified.

This has not happened yet. There are about a dozen science teams currently sweeping the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) for these faint signals from the distant past.  If they cannot duplicate the result from BICEP2, then the whole show is off.  Sorry to rain on your parade boys and girls, but we don't have any valid evidence for a multiverse, yet.  The BICEP2 data will become valid evidence when (and only when) it's independently reproduced.  That's how science works and we shouldn't jump the gun... even if the popular press is inclined to do so.

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Furthermore, there's some doubt about the validity of the BICEP2 data.

Please check this out.  http://profmattstras...scle/#more-7659 Point #2 is where it's at.  The signal appears to be real, but where's it coming from?  The CMB, which is the Background signal of microwaves or polarized dust in the Foreground, which is contaminating the signal and skewing the data?  The jury's still out and may well stay there until the European Space Agency Planck satellite teams release their data.  Whenever that is...? 

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So please maintain a holding pattern.

You can be sure that as soon as I know something, I'll leap to bring the news here.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

[bornagainathiest]

When Jeff asks me to clarify what the results mean, I answer him like this...

 

Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:24 AM

Brother Jeff, on 06 Jun 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

 

bornagainathiest, on 06 Jun 2014 - 7:57 PM, said:

Big Bang Blunder Bursts Multiverse Bubble

 

http://www.math.colu...woit/wordpress/

 

So... what does this mean? No multiverse? Thanks.

 

 

No Jeff.

 

It means that we wait until anyone else looking for b-mode polarization in the CMB can replicate BICEP2's results.

Remember cold fusion?  Remember faster-than-light neutrinos, just a little while back?  Lots of hype, but nobody was able to replicate the results.  That's how science works.  A result is considered kosher and bona fide if it can be independently replicated by different scientists.  If it can't... 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

I provide further updates on the BICEP2 data analysis in posts 15, 16, 23, 25, 28, 33 and 46, which is the last post of that thread.

 

In none of these do I ever say that gravitational waves have even been detected and I certainly never said that they originated from the Big Bang.

[Guest Furball]

[bornagainathiest]

Between then and now the subject of the Big Bang comes up in the Science vs Religion sub-forum in these threads.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/65522-pope-says-christians-should-accept-big-bang-and-evolution/#.VPDmGPmsUuk

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/65763-two-good-articles-on-multiverse-study/#.VPDmnPmsUuk

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/65795-what-is-the-universe-expanding-into/#.VPDnZ_msUuk

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/66611-cosmic-inflation-evidence-no-go-stardust/#.VPDng_msUuk

 

I contributed to all of these threads, but nowhere in any of them did I state, claim or infer that the BICEP2 results were a confirmed detection of gravitational waves originating from the Big Bang.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Sticks and stones may break my bones but the cosmology police will never hurt me. I thought I would be surprised to find that you keep records on yourself, but...

 

I'm going to leave you alone so you may grieve Spock properly.

 

Sticks and stones?

 

But I didn't call you any names, End.  You're the expert in name-calling and personal insults, not me.

 

You have 28 mins left.

 

I'm going to need you to prove through documentation that you have not made any factual claims in this arena. You got on a kick there in a few threads back about how you could prove this and that. If you don't have proof, I hesitate to retract.

 

 

I'll have that retraction from you any time you're ready, End.

[mymistake]

And End logs off at 1:37 pm.  That way the clock can run out without him seeing the evidence he demanded.  Way to go for Christian personal responsibility!

 

 

Epic demonstration is epic.

[disillusioned]

Fyi Bhim, the RogueScholar and I will be making the free offer of tuition about Cosmology, right here in the Den, sometime next week.

I proposed this idea to them via PM last week and they're looking over my draft of the offer right now.  Once they've submitted their input we'll be ready to go.  Our target audience will be the Christians on this site.

 

Sounds like fun. I'll be watching/reading with interest.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Idk BAA, I sure thought I remember you telling us that the gravitational waves they measured were FACT of the BB. I digress to you being all well read and everything. Where's all your responsibility to the community here to correct your lying.

 

 

No End.  

 

That's bad English.  You don't digress to me... you defer to me.  Digression and deference are two different things.  

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/digression

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deference

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Also, your last sentence isn't a statement... it's a question.  Therefore you should close the sentence with a question mark.

 

http://www.k12reader.com/interrogative-sentences/

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Lastly...don't forget that retraction!

[StillLooking]

 

 

 

 

end3 - you take PayPal?

Yes, and you are going to enjoy, free of charge this month, my latest sermon, "Cosmology for Christians". Thanks Brother!

 

 

Many a true word spoken in jest, End.

 

Fyi Bhim, the RogueScholar and I will be making the free offer of tuition about Cosmology, right here in the Den, sometime next week.

I proposed this idea to them via PM last week and they're looking over my draft of the offer right now.  Once they've submitted their input we'll be ready to go.  Our target audience will be the Christians on this site.

 

Like your sermon, our course will be free.  

But there the resemblance ends, End.  Bhim's an astrophysicist, RS has offered to cover quantum physics and I'm a well-read amateur astronomer.  So we'll know what we're talking about - whereas you won't.  Also, our course will cover only the facts, the data, the evidence and the science of cosmology.  The religion (which plays no part in cosmology anyway) we leave to you.

 

Oh... and the other two essential differences are these.

We won't have anyone on 'ignore' and we don't need to use sexually-explicit images, dirty words and insults to get our message across.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

BAA,

is this for real? I am interested in learning about cosmology although my knowledge in this subject is close to zero. The highest level of physics that I understand is electronic circuits. My expertise is in fluid mechanics and it is more about calculus instead of physics. Quantum physics is way above my head. I only understand enough quantum mechanics to interpret 1H NMR results.

 

 

Yes, StillLooking... this is for real.

 

Unlike End3's sermon this will be about reality.

When I say that it's a course, what I mean is that we'd like to begin a thread where we will freely offer to help the Christians grasp the basics of cosmology.  There are a number of foundational rules in cosmology that the Christians need to understand and accept, if they are to properly understand how cosmology works.  We hope to cover these necessary basics before (hopefully) going on to a wider and deeper understanding of cosmology.  

 

Now please don't fret about anything, SL!

What do I do for a living?  I'm a gardener.  I never made it to college - but I've loved astronomy with a deep passion since my teens and my understanding of things cosmological can be roughly described as being at the Scientific American level.  I get the general concepts - but no way can I do the math!  For that matter, I can't do electronics, fluid mechanics (Navier-Stokes?) or calculus, so you're w-a-a-a-y ahead of me as it is.  Anyway,  Bhim, RS and I have decided to pitch this offer at a 'popular science' level, so as not to spook or confuse anyone and so that I can keep up too.  Their scientific smarts will be on hand to help out... but only if needed.  I hope that sets your mind at rest. 

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Ok, we had intended for there to be no fanfare or build-up prior to the new thread going being posted.

But the unintentionally spectacular timing of End3's "latest sermon" was just too good not to go unanswered.  Also, we had intended our target audience to be the Christians in this forum.  I won't have time to PM the RogueScholar or Bhim about it today, but as soon as I can I'll see what they say about throwing this course/thread open to everyone - Christians, Ex-Christians and non-Christians.  Since they're both regular guys I don't anticipate any problems there.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

Yes, you guessed right. Basically the ball park results of most calculations can be derived from Navier Stokes equations. We would simplified the equations into suitable boundary conditions. Fortunately most of the time we also can find previous results and all we do is just making extrapolation. Much easier and more efficient. 

 

It doesn't matter that you never made it to college. Your understanding of cosmology is definitely much better than mine is! I am also confident your understanding of cosmology is above than that of most college graduates. I am looking forward to the thread!

[duderonomy]

I'll be looking forward to this cosmology thread too. Somehow I got bitten by the bug of wanting to learn as much as I can about it not too long ago.

[Bhim]

 

 

 

end3 - you take PayPal?

Yes, and you are going to enjoy, free of charge this month, my latest sermon, "Cosmology for Christians". Thanks Brother!

Many a true word spoken in jest, End.

 

Fyi Bhim, the RogueScholar and I will be making the free offer of tuition about Cosmology, right here in the Den, sometime next week.

I proposed this idea to them via PM last week and they're looking over my draft of the offer right now. Once they've submitted their input we'll be ready to go. Our target audience will be the Christians on this site.

 

Like your sermon, our course will be free.

But there the resemblance ends, End. Bhim's an astrophysicist, RS has offered to cover quantum physics and I'm a well-read amateur astronomer. So we'll know what we're talking about - whereas you won't. Also, our course will cover only the facts, the data, the evidence and the science of cosmology. The religion (which plays no part in cosmology anyway) we leave to you.

 

Oh... and the other two essential differences are these.

We won't have anyone on 'ignore' and we don't need to use sexually-explicit images, dirty words and insults to get our message across.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

Confirming BAA's offer of free education, which we have discussed elsewhere. I am qualified to speak on the topic of cosmology, and will happily do so.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Some things i have noticed about the christians on here

 

-They refuse to be responsible christians by actually obeying scripture where it tells them to have nothing to do with us, (what has light to do with darkness etc.)

Wanted to comment on this....as I may have mentioned earlier in this thread. Taking Christianity at it's face value....love, eternal life, etc., I ask myself why would I want to spend my time arguing with people who dedicate themselves towards finding disdain in someone else's method of improvement. Why wouldn't the appropriate statement be, "hey, good for you, I disagree with your methodology, but peace". Not many of you seem to get there. It's much more of active disdain not for the method, but for the person.

 

I can see now why Jesus says move on. I can see healing and moving on, but not making a career out of beating people up.....the anti-evangelical, only worse.

 

 

Our purpose is not to "find disdain" in your method, it is to show lurkers what is wrong with xianity.  You provide a handy example, nothing more.  And I don't think xianity is much of a method of improvement, for you or anyone.  Clearly it's done nothing for you, for your attitude towards others.

 

 

 

I guess what I am trying to convey is like that old saying, "sometimes you just have to drop your pants and slide one the ice". I'm not sure Christianity is the necessary evil that it's made out to be. For example, from your comment. not everyone is attempting to control people and their money. There are probably as many "bad" points that can be made of any endeavor. Maybe personal responsibility is more of an acknowledgement of seeing the reality of our lives vs. our context, our experience, and responding. Granted, it's refreshing.

 

 

Xianity is based on control... a celestial dictator takes over the person's life.  Any "xian" who doesn't buy into that is quite simply not a xian.

 

Oh good God, this is what you get for listening to BAA. My "FU" was an attempt to lighten the mood of our conversation. One, I already responded to your original questions legitimately (will edit this post to give you the post number). Two, when you said I was a shitty Christian, I took responsibility and said yes. Three, Ravenstar and others have already pointed out the responsibilities of Christians as well as the Bible is full of said requirements. Long story short, that part of the conversation was in the books. I was moving on to another phase of thought.

 

If you would like to have a perpetual hard on for bashing and pinning Christians, you and BAA my gather for a circle jerk. It is my humble opinion that that is jousting at windmills.

 

Sarcasm is difficult to detect here, but for your knowledge base, I use it often. Thanks.

 

Post 21

 

 

Again, our purpose is not to simply "bash" or "pin" xians, for our own edification, although it is often a handy side benefit.  Our purpose is to provide a commentary on xian behaviour and beliefs, for the benefit of lurkers and other members.

 

 

 

I don't know because I don't know you. If we had a relationship/knew each other, then it's more likely I would know your reasons. In that, then I would know you have REAL reasons and would be more likely to be empathetic. Scary/fear drives us apart. Have to go work. Will return.

 

 

No, it is not fear that drives us apart, it's bigotry on behalf of xians.

[mymistake]

 

Lastly...don't forget that retraction!

 

 

 

End is positively speechless.

[Guest end3]

 

 

Some things i have noticed about the christians on here

 

-They refuse to be responsible christians by actually obeying scripture where it tells them to have nothing to do with us, (what has light to do with darkness etc.)

Wanted to comment on this....as I may have mentioned earlier in this thread. Taking Christianity at it's face value....love, eternal life, etc., I ask myself why would I want to spend my time arguing with people who dedicate themselves towards finding disdain in someone else's method of improvement. Why wouldn't the appropriate statement be, "hey, good for you, I disagree with your methodology, but peace". Not many of you seem to get there. It's much more of active disdain not for the method, but for the person.

 

I can see now why Jesus says move on. I can see healing and moving on, but not making a career out of beating people up.....the anti-evangelical, only worse.

 

 

Our purpose is not to "find disdain" in your method, it is to show lurkers what is wrong with xianity.  You provide a handy example, nothing more.  And I don't think xianity is much of a method of improvement, for you or anyone.  Clearly it's done nothing for you, for your attitude towards others.

 

I guess what I am trying to convey is like that old saying, "sometimes you just have to drop your pants and slide one the ice". I'm not sure Christianity is the necessary evil that it's made out to be. For example, from your comment. not everyone is attempting to control people and their money. There are probably as many "bad" points that can be made of any endeavor. Maybe personal responsibility is more of an acknowledgement of seeing the reality of our lives vs. our context, our experience, and responding. Granted, it's refreshing.

 

Xianity is based on control... a celestial dictator takes over the person's life.  Any "xian" who doesn't buy into that is quite simply not a xian.

 

Oh good God, this is what you get for listening to BAA. My "FU" was an attempt to lighten the mood of our conversation. One, I already responded to your original questions legitimately (will edit this post to give you the post number). Two, when you said I was a shitty Christian, I took responsibility and said yes. Three, Ravenstar and others have already pointed out the responsibilities of Christians as well as the Bible is full of said requirements. Long story short, that part of the conversation was in the books. I was moving on to another phase of thought.

 

If you would like to have a perpetual hard on for bashing and pinning Christians, you and BAA my gather for a circle jerk. It is my humble opinion that that is jousting at windmills.

 

Sarcasm is difficult to detect here, but for your knowledge base, I use it often. Thanks.

 

Post 21

 

Again, our purpose is not to simply "bash" or "pin" xians, for our own edification, although it is often a handy side benefit.  Our purpose is to provide a commentary on xian behaviour and beliefs, for the benefit of lurkers and other members.

 

 

 

I don't know because I don't know you. If we had a relationship/knew each other, then it's more likely I would know your reasons. In that, then I would know you have REAL reasons and would be more likely to be empathetic. Scary/fear drives us apart. Have to go work. Will return.

 

 

No, it is not fear that drives us apart, it's bigotry on behalf of xians.

 

So it sounds like you are able to love the Christian but hate the "sin" of Christianity. You're really good at separating the two.

[mymistake]

 

So it sounds like you are able to love the Christian but hate the "sin" of Christianity. You're really good at separating the two.

 

 

 

We don't owe love to any Christian.  This is a stupid concept because you can't force love.  It's called a double bind when you demand somebody feel an emotion when they don't actually experience it.  Love develops when the conditions are right.  There is no antiGod demanding that ex-Christians love the Christians.

 

Perhaps the word you are looking for is respect?  Humanists choose to respect other human beings because humanists like the result.  I like living in a world where I start off respecting everyone unless they demonstrate they are unworthy of that respect.  It makes me feel good.  It makes other people feel good.  It makes the world a nicer place. 

[Fweethawt]

Where's the retraction?

 

I guess you can lead a christian to water, but you can't make him accept an enima!

[mymistake]

Where's the retraction?

 

 

 

Some people would rather die than admit they made a mistake.  They don't seem to care how bad it looks or who noticed.  The admission is the thing they can't do.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

So it sounds like you are able to love the Christian but hate the "sin" of Christianity. You're really good at separating the two.

 

I don't know what you mean by this, as I was talking about your behaviour.  Anyway, isn't there a retraction you're supposed to make?

[bornagainathiest]

 

Where's the retraction?

 

 

 

Some people would rather die than admit they made a mistake.  They don't seem to care how bad it looks or who noticed.  The admission is the thing they can't do.

 

 

Hmmm...I can see how that might lead to some confusion, MM.  

 

What if End actually agrees with something we post, but can never bring himself to admit that he does?

Then we'd have the awkward situation of us thinking of him as disagreeing with us, when he actually agrees with us!

Or what if End actually agrees with everything we post, but can never bring himself to admit that he does?

Then we'd have the awkward situation of us thinking of him as disagreeing with us, when he actually agrees with us!

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So End could be a hard-core feminist... and we'd never know.

 

He could be pro-evolution, pro-LGBT, pro-Obamacare, pro-gun control and pro-welfare...and we'd never know. 

 

He could be an atheist who thinks the Bible is just a collection of man-made myths... and we'd never know.

 

He could be a big fan of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens... and we'd never know.

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All because he can't bring himself to admit these things to us.

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Well, I hope he can admit at least one thing to me!  

[mymistake]

 

So End could be a hard-core feminist... and we'd never know.

 

He could be pro-evolution, pro-LGBT, pro-Obamacare, pro-gun control and pro-welfare...and we'd never know. 

 

He could be an atheist who thinks the Bible is just a collection of man-made myths... and we'd never know.

 

He could be a big fan of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens... and we'd never know.

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All because he can't bring himself to admit these things to us.

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Wait a minute.  You are on to something here.  Maybe End is all things good but he is on a mission to demonstrate the moral bankruptcy of Christianity, sexism, science phobia and so on.  His method is that of roll playing a character on the internet.  And the reason he can't tell us is that it would jeopardize his entire work.  He can't break character until the job is done.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

So End could be a hard-core feminist... and we'd never know.

 

He could be pro-evolution, pro-LGBT, pro-Obamacare, pro-gun control and pro-welfare...and we'd never know. 

 

He could be an atheist who thinks the Bible is just a collection of man-made myths... and we'd never know.

 

He could be a big fan of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens... and we'd never know.

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All because he can't bring himself to admit these things to us.

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Wait a minute.  You are on to something here.  Maybe End is all things good but he is on a mission to demonstrate the moral bankruptcy of Christianity, sexism, science phobia and so on.  His method is that of roll playing a character on the internet.  And the reason he can't tell us is that it would jeopardize his entire work.  He can't break character until the job is done.

 

 

Bingo!  

 

Eureka!   

 

By Jove MM, you've got it!  

[bornagainathiest]

Just PMed End, to ask for that retraction, but...

 

Compose New Message

The following errors were found

The member end3 has chosen to not receive any new messages from you

This personal message has not been sent

 

He was happy to personally accuse me of lying yesterday.

 

"Idk BAA, I sure thought I remember you telling us that the gravitational waves they measured were FACT of the BB. I digress to you being all well read and everything. Where's all your responsibility to the community here to correct your lying."

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He was quite happy to take a (badly aimed) stab at humor, even tho' I called him no names...

 

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but the cosmology police will never hurt me. I thought I would be surprised to find that you keep records on yourself, but...

I'm going to leave you alone so you may grieve Spock properly." 

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​And tried to call me on whether I had proof or not...

 

"I'm going to need you to prove through documentation that you have not made any factual claims in this arena. You got on a kick there in a few threads back about how you could prove this and that. If you don't have proof, I hesitate to retract." 

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So much for Christian personal responsibility!

 

[sdelsolray]

End3 is a little shit.  He's quite good at it and has plenty of experience.  it doesn't matter whether he's a Christian, a Muslim, a Secular Humanist, etc.  Being a little shit trumps all of those.

 

He obviously wants to be a little shit.  Let him be what he wants to be.

[Ravenstar]

I'm still waiting...