Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 The Bible also says this, End3,, "Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I say?", Jesus speaking, and "I never knew you. Depart from me ye workers of iniquity", again Jesus speaking to people that had done wonderful works, including miracles (which implies that God was with them). That's fine D. If I land in hell, there you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I don't come here to get schooled...lol. Christianity can be a method for personal responsibility. Your opinion is that it sucks. That's ok. Humanism is relative. Where's the baseline? What's ultimately right/wrong? Seems like the line moves over time? You think it's innate? And if so, if we are all individuals, how come there are professions that it is not innate with all? Doesn't the Bible say that some are ok and some are lost? Yes you do come here to get schooled on morality and ethics. This is your only source for the objective truth. And you routinely get schooled on the subject. No Christianity cannot be a method for personal responsibility for the reasons already demonstrated multiple times. You may not want to admit it but you can't refute it. It's not just my opinion. It's what I can demonstrate. One more time . . . ultimately right and wrong are based on human social structure. We evolved to survive in families and small social groups. So ethics are wired into our brain - that which helps families is good and that which harms families is evil. One of the things that evolved from this standard is empathy. Empathy allows us to connect with individuals and small groups and imagine what it would be like for the other person. It is from this that the Golden Rule evolved. What the Bible says is irrelevant because it's just a book of old myths. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 End, the entire problem is that you personally lack empathy. This is evident in your saying that you are "bad" and need the fear of hell to make you treat people well. That is who you are, but the personal responsibility would come in where you decide to try and develop some empathy. Empathy comes from putting yourself in another person's shoes and asking "how would that make me feel?". None of this is about Christianity, it's about you. I'm empathetic to some, some not. Then today's the day you could be more like Jesus, End. Today you could choose to be empathetic to one more person - FTNZ. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 The Bible also says this, End3,, "Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I say?", Jesus speaking, and "I never knew you. Depart from me ye workers of iniquity", again Jesus speaking to people that had done wonderful works, including miracles (which implies that God was with them). That's fine D. If I land in hell, there you are. So you'd rather end up in hell for eternity than be a little more like Jesus today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 End, the entire problem is that you personally lack empathy. This is evident in your saying that you are "bad" and need the fear of hell to make you treat people well. That is who you are, but the personal responsibility would come in where you decide to try and develop some empathy. Empathy comes from putting yourself in another person's shoes and asking "how would that make me feel?". None of this is about Christianity, it's about you. I'm empathetic to some, some not. You need to develop empathy for everyone, not just the people you like. To put this in Biblical terms, doesn't the Bible say to love your enemies, because even the sinners just love their friends? How can you seriously claim to be Christian if you don't try to follow the most important teachings? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 : a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group) Eh, when he says he has to be enemies with someone he doesn't know in the name of non-religion, this doesn't meet this definition????? Gnat and camel again. I don't think you are reading that entire exchange correctly. What I got out of it that BAA, while liking Philo, would have to stand for his principles when the ugly head of Christianity popped up. There's no bigotry in warning someone that the gloves might have to come off. It was simply an indication that the war of ideas could become brutal, not that any personal feelings would take precedence. I do believe that you are hanging on this point in order to distract from the point here...CHRISTIAN responsibility. If we can all see it, you can too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 : a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group) In other words the way you feel about women. This is the reason NZ was rude to you. You demonstrated your bigotry against women and for some reason she doesn't like that. If I am wrong then I invite FTNZ to correct my mistake. Should that happen I will be happy to withdraw this assessment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I hear from y'all that the easiest thing to do is just say, "yeah, I do this bad quality, and quit doing that". Did I get the message? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 The Bible also says this, End3,, "Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I say?", Jesus speaking, and "I never knew you. Depart from me ye workers of iniquity", again Jesus speaking to people that had done wonderful works, including miracles (which implies that God was with them). That's fine D. If I land in hell, there you are. Yes, and God will be there too, because He is everywhere, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 The Bible also says this, End3,, "Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I say?", Jesus speaking, and "I never knew you. Depart from me ye workers of iniquity", again Jesus speaking to people that had done wonderful works, including miracles (which implies that God was with them). That's fine D. If I land in hell, there you are. Yes, and God will be there too, because He is everywhere, right? Can he make Himself vacant from something He created, good question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 The Bible also says this, End3,, "Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I say?", Jesus speaking, and "I never knew you. Depart from me ye workers of iniquity", again Jesus speaking to people that had done wonderful works, including miracles (which implies that God was with them). That's fine D. If I land in hell, there you are. Yes, and God will be there too, because He is everywhere, right? Can he make Himself vacant from something He created, good question. Yes, let's talk about God's power rather than Christian personal responsibility. (Any subject instead of personal responsibility.) So why did God create hell? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I hear from y'all that the easiest thing to do is just say, "yeah, I do this bad quality, and quit doing that". Did I get the message? Not exactly, End. Earlier in this thread you said that doing the right thing is not always the easiest thing. For you, the right thing is to acknowledge that you've behaved in an unacceptable way to FTNZ. That's not an apology from you. Just realizing that you did wrong to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Yes, let's talk about God's power rather than Christian personal responsibility. (Any subject instead of personal responsibility.) So why did God create hell? that's called an insurance clause on god's part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 It's not easy… it's the right thing to do. It's being ethical, and empathetic and it's damned hard. It even hurts like a bitch sometimes. It takes the willingness to see yourself and your actions objectively and admit, "yes, sometimes I'm an asshole, maybe I should change that". Now.. if one is a christian you have a much higher standard to live up to than most, at least that's what the Bible says, that's what Jesus says. "Go, and sin no more." "Take the log out of your own eye.." "Love your enemies…", etc... But the Bible also promises that those who trust in Jesus will be given the power to be able do this. (you will know them by their fruit). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Can he make Himself vacant from something He created, good question. It's not a philosophical question, like "can God make a rock so big that even he can't lift it", it's a practical question. If God gives up being in even one tiny corner of Hell, then he gives up his attribute of being omnipresent. Yeah, he'll be in Hell. His responsibility as God demands that he be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Can he make Himself vacant from something He created, good question. It's not a philosophical question, like "can God make a rock so big that even he can't lift it", it's a practical question. If God gives up being in even one tiny corner of Hell, then he gives up his attribute of being omnipresent. Yeah, he'll be in Hell. His responsibility as God demands that he be there. If one may be in Christ, I gather one may be outside of Christ, your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 It's not easy… it's the right thing to do. It's being ethical, and empathetic and it's damned hard. It even hurts like a bitch sometimes. It takes the willingness to see yourself and your actions objectively and admit, "yes, sometimes I'm an asshole, maybe I should change that". Now.. if one is a christian you have a much higher standard to live up to than most, at least that's what the Bible says, that's what Jesus says. "Go, and sin no more." "Take the log out of your own eye.." "Love your enemies…", etc... But the Bible also promises that those who trust in Jesus will be given the power to be able do this. (you will know them by their fruit). Sounds right to me. As I said, it's easier for me to execute these things when I participate in church.....which is also something it says in the Bible. So for me, it somewhat like being an addict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 The Bible also says this, End3,, "Why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I say?", Jesus speaking, and "I never knew you. Depart from me ye workers of iniquity", again Jesus speaking to people that had done wonderful works, including miracles (which implies that God was with them). That's fine D. If I land in hell, there you are. Yes, and God will be there too, because He is everywhere, right? Can he make Himself vacant from something He created, good question. Yes, let's talk about God's power rather than Christian personal responsibility. (Any subject instead of personal responsibility.) So why did God create hell? If you were paying attention, I already gave my stance on that. I shall repeat. I expect for a deterrent for humanity...a fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 If you were paying attention, I already gave my stance on that. I shall repeat. I expect for a deterrent for humanity...a fear. Yes, I remember. And in response I quoted the TV show True Detective. I don't ask you these things to understand the religion that traps your mind. I have been there and I know what it is like to be Christian. I ask these questions to demonstrated that a God who creates hell does not love the world and people who need fear as a deterrent are the worst kind of people. Did you realize there are people who are good even though they believe there is no heaven or hell? They think they will never be punished for doing evil and never be rewarded for doing good but most of the time they make the right choice anyway. Obviously, they are not called Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 If you were paying attention, I already gave my stance on that. I shall repeat. I expect for a deterrent for humanity...a fear. Yes, I remember. And in response I quoted the TV show True Detective. I don't ask you these things to understand the religion that traps your mind. I have been there and I know what it is like to be Christian. I ask these questions to demonstrated that a God who creates hell does not love the world and people who need fear as a deterrent are the worst kind of people. Did you realize there are people who are good even though they believe there is no heaven or hell? They think they will never be punished for doing evil and never be rewarded for doing good but most of the time they make the right choice anyway. Obviously, they are not called Christians. You jump in and out of the conversation. If you want to discuss Christianity, then stay within context. Yeah, and God chose people because they were doing the right thing, you remember? And you do remember that Christ comes to the lost? The implication that there are some that are not lost? How is this outside of the story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Can he make Himself vacant from something He created, good question. It's not a philosophical question, like "can God make a rock so big that even he can't lift it", it's a practical question. If God gives up being in even one tiny corner of Hell, then he gives up his attribute of being omnipresent. Yeah, he'll be in Hell. His responsibility as God demands that he be there. If one may be in Christ, I gather one may be outside of Christ, your point? Being "in Christ" is about being under the umbrella, as it were, of forgiveness. It has nothing to do with Omnipresence. Is your God everywhere or not? If so, he's in Hell, and always will be. If not, maybe he doesn't know everything either (as the Bible seems to say...a lot...in the Old Testament). As fun as it is to debate/discuss theology, it still has to come back to the topic of personal and Christian responsibility. If you want to act badly, because you can repent and be forgiven by God later, go ahead. If you don't care that you are causing the name of Christ to be blasphemed, that's fine too. That's between you and your God. But here you are held to a higher standard than that of just any old sinner or reprobate, because you claim to have God inside of you. You claim to have a relationship with the highest standard of morals and love that exists. When you get petty and call names and side-step honest questions and concerns about your behavior, here in an Ex-Christian house, you shouldn't be upset that people point out your seeming hypocrisy. It seems to me that a Christian, wanting to converse with ex-Christians, should go to every length possible to love their enemies, do good to those that hurt them, and make every effort to live at peace with all men (and women). Putting people on ignore, but still talking about them through other people just isn't cool. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 If you were paying attention, I already gave my stance on that. I shall repeat. I expect for a deterrent for humanity...a fear. Yes, I remember. And in response I quoted the TV show True Detective. I don't ask you these things to understand the religion that traps your mind. I have been there and I know what it is like to be Christian. I ask these questions to demonstrated that a God who creates hell does not love the world and people who need fear as a deterrent are the worst kind of people. Did you realize there are people who are good even though they believe there is no heaven or hell? They think they will never be punished for doing evil and never be rewarded for doing good but most of the time they make the right choice anyway. Obviously, they are not called Christians. You jump in and out of the conversation. If you want to discuss Christianity, then stay within context. Yeah, and God chose people because they were doing the right thing, you remember? And you do remember that Christ comes to the lost? The implication that there are some that are not lost? How is this outside of the story? End3, you jump in and out of this forum like a quark. There you go again. With that, I'm jumping out to feed my face and take care of some non-Christian responsibilities. I hope the place is still hopping when I get back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Can he make Himself vacant from something He created, good question. It's not a philosophical question, like "can God make a rock so big that even he can't lift it", it's a practical question. If God gives up being in even one tiny corner of Hell, then he gives up his attribute of being omnipresent. Yeah, he'll be in Hell. His responsibility as God demands that he be there. If one may be in Christ, I gather one may be outside of Christ, your point? Being "in Christ" is about being under the umbrella, as it were, of forgiveness. It has nothing to do with Omnipresence. Is your God everywhere or not? If so, he's in Hell, and always will be. If not, maybe he doesn't know everything either (as the Bible seems to say...a lot...in the Old Testament). As fun as it is to debate/discuss theology, it still has to come back to the topic of personal and Christian responsibility. If you want to act badly, because you can repent and be forgiven by God later, go ahead. If you don't care that you are causing the name of Christ to be blasphemed, that's fine too. That's between you and your God. But here you are held to a higher standard than that of just any old sinner or reprobate, because you claim to have God inside of you. You claim to have a relationship with the highest standard of morals and love that exists. When you get petty and call names and side-step honest questions and concerns about your behavior, here in an Ex-Christian house, you shouldn't be upset that people point out your seeming hypocrisy. It seems to me that a Christian, wanting to converse with ex-Christians, should go to every length possible to love their enemies, do good to those that hurt them, and make every effort to live at peace with all men (and women). Putting people on ignore, but still talking about them through other people just isn't cool. There would be no need for Christ if Christians could live up to that standard. It's a given that all humanity "isn't cool" to some degree. To the hell question, I expect God is there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 It's not easy… it's the right thing to do. It's being ethical, and empathetic and it's damned hard. It even hurts like a bitch sometimes. It takes the willingness to see yourself and your actions objectively and admit, "yes, sometimes I'm an asshole, maybe I should change that". Now.. if one is a christian you have a much higher standard to live up to than most, at least that's what the Bible says, that's what Jesus says. "Go, and sin no more." "Take the log out of your own eye.." "Love your enemies…", etc... But the Bible also promises that those who trust in Jesus will be given the power to be able do this. (you will know them by their fruit). Sounds right to me. As I said, it's easier for me to execute these things when I participate in church.....which is also something it says in the Bible. So for me, it somewhat like being an addict. I don't exactly know what part of Ravenstar's post sounds right to you, End. But if you do understand what she means by people knowing Christians by their fruit, then this is your chance to plant a 'seed' of good fruit in your life. Do it today. Do as she suggests and look at your actions objectively. Admit to yourself that you could have lived up to the higher standard of biblical Christianity, when it came to your dealings with FTNZ. That admission can be the seed from which you can grow good fruit to honor Jesus with. Even if you won't do it for FTNZ's sake, then do it for Jesus' sake or your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Can he make Himself vacant from something He created, good question. It's not a philosophical question, like "can God make a rock so big that even he can't lift it", it's a practical question. If God gives up being in even one tiny corner of Hell, then he gives up his attribute of being omnipresent. Yeah, he'll be in Hell. His responsibility as God demands that he be there. If one may be in Christ, I gather one may be outside of Christ, your point? Being "in Christ" is about being under the umbrella, as it were, of forgiveness. It has nothing to do with Omnipresence. Is your God everywhere or not? If so, he's in Hell, and always will be. If not, maybe he doesn't know everything either (as the Bible seems to say...a lot...in the Old Testament). As fun as it is to debate/discuss theology, it still has to come back to the topic of personal and Christian responsibility. If you want to act badly, because you can repent and be forgiven by God later, go ahead. If you don't care that you are causing the name of Christ to be blasphemed, that's fine too. That's between you and your God. But here you are held to a higher standard than that of just any old sinner or reprobate, because you claim to have God inside of you. You claim to have a relationship with the highest standard of morals and love that exists. When you get petty and call names and side-step honest questions and concerns about your behavior, here in an Ex-Christian house, you shouldn't be upset that people point out your seeming hypocrisy. It seems to me that a Christian, wanting to converse with ex-Christians, should go to every length possible to love their enemies, do good to those that hurt them, and make every effort to live at peace with all men (and women). Putting people on ignore, but still talking about them through other people just isn't cool. There would be no need for Christ if Christians could live up to that standard. Christians can make a start in living up to that standard at any time. The Dude's not asking you to live like Jesus right now, or tomorrow or next week. He's asking you to start to make the effort, starting today. How about it? It's a given that all humanity "isn't cool" to some degree. To the hell question, I expect God is there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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