Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Made it back NK. Man, I feel the love. What may I attempt to clarify if you are still awake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Very often we fail, as I do, but repent and have faith that Christ delivers us all from these shortcomings. this is one of the things that got me when i was a christian. you have faith that someone you cannot see will forgive you....but how do you know you really are forgiven? for me, the problem with faith is it leaves too much room for uncertainty. faith is just me believing something to be true when i really don't know if it is or isn't. -just sayin' p.s. why does christ need to deliver us from shortcomings? i think you meant to say sin. to say you need to be delivered from shortcomings is the same as saying you need to be delivered from being human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Being aware of one's shortcomings and/or mistakes is a far cry from taking responsibility for them.. though it is the first step. For me it means making amends… fixing it, if at all possible, eating crow when necessary, and changing my ways so it doesn't happen again. Otherwise it's just either a pity party or an avoidance of guilt through rationalization. This is where I and christianity parted ways… saying sorry just isn't good enough. Especially when it's to basically no one, and not the person you have transgressed against, seriously, what good does that do in the real world? It's not good enough, and it does not make one a better person. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Made it back NK. Man, I feel the love. What may I attempt to clarify if you are still awake. Why you're responsible to God for your sins, but not to those you've sinned against? Explaining that would help us ALL understand your take on Christian responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Being aware of one's shortcomings and/or mistakes is a far cry from taking responsibility for them.. though it is the first step. For me it means making amends… fixing it, if at all possible, eating crow when necessary, and changing my ways so it doesn't happen again. Otherwise it's just either a pity party or an avoidance of guilt through rationalization. This is where I and christianity parted ways… saying sorry just isn't good enough. Especially when it's to basically no one, and not the person you have transgressed against, seriously, what good does that do in the real world? It's not good enough, and it does not make one a better person. Hey Ravenstar! Notice how End's sins against others have quickly become moral failures and shortcomings on his part? Dilution being the first step to exoneration and absolution from all responsibility? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I only have one command for you: think with your brain and heart before you do anything. That's it, human! they can't think with their brain and heart because it's all tainted with sin I never understood that logic: god created you with a brain and a heart (will) but don't use them <sighs> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Being aware of one's shortcomings and/or mistakes is a far cry from taking responsibility for them.. though it is the first step. For me it means making amends… fixing it, if at all possible, eating crow when necessary, and changing my ways so it doesn't happen again. Otherwise it's just either a pity party or an avoidance of guilt through rationalization. This is where I and christianity parted ways… saying sorry just isn't good enough. Especially when it's to basically no one, and not the person you have transgressed against, seriously, what good does that do in the real world? It's not good enough, and it does not make one a better person. Hey Ravenstar! Notice how End's sins against others have quickly become moral failures and shortcomings on his part? Dilution being the first step to exoneration and absolution from all responsibility? Absolutely… the 'rationalization' part I mention above. There is a very simple formula for being a decent human being… Don't be a dick, and clean up after yourself. It involves seeing ones self clearly and realistically, and owning your own shit. None of us smell like roses. ;D 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Very often we fail, as I do, but repent and have faith that Christ delivers us all from these shortcomings.this is one of the things that got me when i was a christian. you have faith that someone you cannot see will forgive you....but how do you know you really are forgiven? for me, the problem with faith is it leaves too much room for uncertainty. faith is just me believing something to be true when i really don't know if it is or isn't. -just sayin' p.s. why does christ need to deliver us from shortcomings? i think you meant to say sin. to say you need to be delivered from shortcomings is the same as saying you need to be delivered from being human. I think humans are so bad that we need some fear of not doing the right thing. You may think that's crazy, but. I don't know that I'm forgiven and that keeps me on task. Otherwise, you think I am bad now. It's real for me to believe that humans have the capacity for really good and really bad. I think we reside, or at least I do, on the side of bad. I don't like it nor wish to live there, it just is. Being in a pretend supportive group at least helps some. About the only place I am naturally good is with my children. It's all interesting to me, just don't know how to be good more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Being aware of one's shortcomings and/or mistakes is a far cry from taking responsibility for them.. though it is the first step. For me it means making amends… fixing it, if at all possible, eating crow when necessary, and changing my ways so it doesn't happen again. Otherwise it's just either a pity party or an avoidance of guilt through rationalization. This is where I and christianity parted ways… saying sorry just isn't good enough. Especially when it's to basically no one, and not the person you have transgressed against, seriously, what good does that do in the real world? It's not good enough, and it does not make one a better person. Hey Ravenstar! Notice how End's sins against others have quickly become moral failures and shortcomings on his part? Dilution being the first step to exoneration and absolution from all responsibility? Absolutely… the 'rationalization' part I mention above. There is a very simple formula for being a decent human being… Don't be a dick, and clean up after yourself. It involves seeing ones self clearly and realistically, and owning your own shit. None of us smell like roses. ;D But Ravenstar... End isn't responsible to anyone but Jesus for his sins! He doesn't have to own his own shit (or even admit to making any) because Jesus owns it all for him! Surely you can see that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Being aware of one's shortcomings and/or mistakes is a far cry from taking responsibility for them.. though it is the first step. For me it means making amends… fixing it, if at all possible, eating crow when necessary, and changing my ways so it doesn't happen again. Otherwise it's just either a pity party or an avoidance of guilt through rationalization. This is where I and christianity parted ways… saying sorry just isn't good enough. Especially when it's to basically no one, and not the person you have transgressed against, seriously, what good does that do in the real world? It's not good enough, and it does not make one a better person. Hey Ravenstar! Notice how End's sins against others have quickly become moral failures and shortcomings on his part? Dilution being the first step to exoneration and absolution from all responsibility? Absolutely… the 'rationalization' part I mention above. There is a very simple formula for being a decent human being… Don't be a dick, and clean up after yourself. It involves seeing ones self clearly and realistically, and owning your own shit. None of us smell like roses. ;D I'm aware of that. Not a problem, but I would then be diluting my own self. Would you wish for me to lie to myself? "It's ok BAA, you're not a tedious dick." "You really are ok and all is good". No, I don't see that at all. Nor do I see it with FTNZ. Y'all would like to pressure me into some apology, but it ain't gonna happen. Certainly I don't wish harm to come to anyone, or anything else, but when they decide they don't want to do harm, then I might change my mind. Can not see that at the moment. Edit: And have had many confirmations of their behavior towards me from many people here. So it's not just me noticing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 "If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother, that person is a piece of shit" - Rust Cohle, True Detective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Being aware of one's shortcomings and/or mistakes is a far cry from taking responsibility for them.. though it is the first step. For me it means making amends… fixing it, if at all possible, eating crow when necessary, and changing my ways so it doesn't happen again. Otherwise it's just either a pity party or an avoidance of guilt through rationalization. This is where I and christianity parted ways… saying sorry just isn't good enough. Especially when it's to basically no one, and not the person you have transgressed against, seriously, what good does that do in the real world? It's not good enough, and it does not make one a better person. Hey Ravenstar! Notice how End's sins against others have quickly become moral failures and shortcomings on his part? Dilution being the first step to exoneration and absolution from all responsibility? Absolutely… the 'rationalization' part I mention above. There is a very simple formula for being a decent human being… Don't be a dick, and clean up after yourself. It involves seeing ones self clearly and realistically, and owning your own shit. None of us smell like roses. ;D I'm aware of that. Not a problem, but I would then be diluting my own self. Would you wish for me to lie to myself? "It's ok BAA, you're not a tedious dick." "You really are ok and all is good". No, I don't see that at all. Nor do I see it with FTNZ. Y'all would like to pressure me into some apology, but it ain't gonna happen. Certainly I don't wish harm to come to anyone, or anything else, but when they decide they don't want to do harm, then I might change my mind. Can not see that at the moment. Ah... now we see! It was FTNZ's fault that End insulted her and called her an antagonistic bitch. Now it becomes clear. End's got nothing to apologize for. It was her fault for being antagonistic and End didn't have to turn the other cheek, as Jesus commanded him. It was her fault for being a bitch. Thanks for clearing that up, End! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Y'all would like to pressure me into some apology, but it ain't gonna happen. No, never. A forced apology would be meaningless. Instead I wish your eyes would be open and you would understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 So when IS an apology merited from End3 I wonder? Just how badly does he have to sin against someone to actually want to be reconciled with them? To want to heal the injury he did them? . . . And not to put them on 'ignore'...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Y'all would like to pressure me into some apology, but it ain't gonna happen. No, never. A forced apology would be meaningless. Instead I wish your eyes would be open and you would understand. Go look at what our friend wrote to the new Christian. Paraphrasing: I would like to be friends but my friends and lurkers are more important than you, so we will have to be enemies. How completely fucked up is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Very often we fail, as I do, but repent and have faith that Christ delivers us all from these shortcomings.this is one of the things that got me when i was a christian. you have faith that someone you cannot see will forgive you....but how do you know you really are forgiven? for me, the problem with faith is it leaves too much room for uncertainty. faith is just me believing something to be true when i really don't know if it is or isn't. -just sayin' p.s. why does christ need to deliver us from shortcomings? i think you meant to say sin. to say you need to be delivered from shortcomings is the same as saying you need to be delivered from being human. I think humans are so bad that we need some fear of not doing the right thing. You may think that's crazy, but. I don't know that I'm forgiven and that keeps me on task. Otherwise, you think I am bad now. It's real for me to believe that humans have the capacity for really good and really bad. I think we reside, or at least I do, on the side of bad. I don't like it nor wish to live there, it just is. Being in a pretend supportive group at least helps some. About the only place I am naturally good is with my children. It's all interesting to me, just don't know how to be good more often. Why do you think that you reside on the side of bad? Is this because the bible tells you so, or is this because you personally believe this is so? If you are naturally good to your children then you are a good person, in spite of whatever shortcomings you believe you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Y'all would like to pressure me into some apology, but it ain't gonna happen. No, never. A forced apology would be meaningless. Instead I wish your eyes would be open and you would understand. Go look at what our friend wrote to the new Christian. Paraphrasing: I would like to be friends but my friends and lurkers are more important than you, so we will have to be enemies. How completely fucked up is that. Less fucked up than you wanting to be reconciled with your invisible friend rather than the human being you've sinned against... that's for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Y'all would like to pressure me into some apology, but it ain't gonna happen. No, never. A forced apology would be meaningless. Instead I wish your eyes would be open and you would understand. Go look at what our friend wrote to the new Christian. Paraphrasing: I would like to be friends but my friends and lurkers are more important than you, so we will have to be enemies. How completely fucked up is that. I would like to see a link please. Or at least tell me which thread and which post number you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Y'all would like to pressure me into some apology, but it ain't gonna happen. No, never. A forced apology would be meaningless. Instead I wish your eyes would be open and you would understand. Go look at what our friend wrote to the new Christian. Paraphrasing: I would like to be friends but my friends and lurkers are more important than you, so we will have to be enemies. How completely fucked up is that. Nice deflection btw, End! It takes focus away from the subject of this thread...CHRISTIAN RESPONSIBILITY! Away from your moral failings and shortcomings sins. Yep! Nice dodge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Y'all would like to pressure me into some apology, but it ain't gonna happen. No, never. A forced apology would be meaningless. Instead I wish your eyes would be open and you would understand. Go look at what our friend wrote to the new Christian. Paraphrasing: I would like to be friends but my friends and lurkers are more important than you, so we will have to be enemies. How completely fucked up is that. I would like to see a link please. Or at least tell me which thread and which post number you are talking about. Hey MM! Once End's given you that link, don't forget to bring this thread back on track and to focus squarely on HIM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Y'all would like to pressure me into some apology, but it ain't gonna happen. No, never. A forced apology would be meaningless. Instead I wish your eyes would be open and you would understand. Go look at what our friend wrote to the new Christian. Paraphrasing: I would like to be friends but my friends and lurkers are more important than you, so we will have to be enemies. How completely fucked up is that. I would like to see a link please. Or at least tell me which thread and which post number you are talking about. Post 23 where Philoviod is responding to BAA of the "Lions, please familiarize... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Post 23 where Philoviod is responding to BAA of the "Lions, please familiarize... Even if MyMistake agrees that my post was completely fucked up, what's that got to do with Christian responsibility? I'm not a Christian...remember? And I'm not the one sinning by insulting FTNZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Y'all would like to pressure me into some apology, but it ain't gonna happen. No, never. A forced apology would be meaningless. Instead I wish your eyes would be open and you would understand. Go look at what our friend wrote to the new Christian. Paraphrasing: I would like to be friends but my friends and lurkers are more important than you, so we will have to be enemies. How completely fucked up is that. I would like to see a link please. Or at least tell me which thread and which post number you are talking about. Post 23 where Philoviod is responding to BAA of the "Lions, please familiarize... Sorry. I don't see anything in that where 2PV looks like a jerk. Can you be more specific? However I did not forget that you brought this up as a distraction. I would never want you to be forced into an apology. Instead I think you are missing out of a lot of meaning and I wish you could understand what you are missing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Just for the record MM, I'm not trying to force End into an apology he's not willing to make, either. Instead I'm trying (and currently failing) to show him that the responsibility for his sins against others isn't just to Jesus. It's also to the people he's sinned against. . . . Even if I never succeed in getting End to realize that he has wronged others and does need to make amends to them, the other members and lurkers watching this dialog will surely take note of End's total lack of human empathy and his total refusal to own up to any kind of wrongdoing...even when it's clearly documented and shown for all to see. They will take note and treat him and whatever he posts accordingly. That result is more than enough reason for me to be pleased with the way this thread is evolving! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Y'all would like to pressure me into some apology, but it ain't gonna happen. No, never. A forced apology would be meaningless. Instead I wish your eyes would be open and you would understand. Go look at what our friend wrote to the new Christian. Paraphrasing: I would like to be friends but my friends and lurkers are more important than you, so we will have to be enemies. How completely fucked up is that. I would like to see a link please. Or at least tell me which thread and which post number you are talking about. Post 23 where Philoviod is responding to BAA of the "Lions, please familiarize... Sorry. I don't see anything in that where 2PV looks like a jerk. Can you be more specific? However I did not forget that you brought this up as a distraction. I would never want you to be forced into an apology. Instead I think you are missing out of a lot of meaning and I wish you could understand what you are missing. Not to belabor, but it's BAA being the JA. How can you rule out being friends without even knowing someone. How can you say to another human that these humans are more important than you. Crap, I don't even go there. I think he should be the one doing as much introspection as the rest of us. It's not a distraction. Everyone telling me how I'm wrong about him. Bringing his character in to light is evidence, not a distraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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