Christianity And Personal Responsibility

[sdelsolray]

...

To this day, I have no clue about [FTNZ's] problem with me.

...

 

I'm sure you don't.

 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Ok, let's talk about her directly. We were pretty good friends in chat and then one day she comes out being rude and hasn't stopped yet. To this day, I have no clue about her problem with me. I do know that I am tired of it to the point of putting her on ignore. When she is ready to have a conversation, I'm ready. And I glance at her posts on occasion, but can't tell that she is ready to have a discussion. No distractions here.

 

 

We were not "pretty good friends in chat".  I joined this website back in April 2014. The following month, End made sexist comments about women not being able to do physical work such as that required on oil rigs.  I and others refuted this by posting links about oil company efforts to recruit women, and citing that some women through physical training, are fully capable of demanding physical work of any kind.  I acknowledged that most women do not have enough upper body strength to do such work... but only because they haven't trained for it.  

 

End wanted to limit certain jobs to men only, while I wanted there to be equal opportunities for women and men, with employment based on merit and the individual's ability to do the job.  In my view, End's opinion is based on outdated ideas that come from xianity.  At the present time, our societies are evolving beyond those ideas towards equal rights and opportunities for all.

 

Despite his unnecessarily rude comments to me at that time, I made a genuine effort to ignore that and get to know him in chat, like I do for anyone who comes in there, including the xians.  Despite being under no obligation (as a non-xian) to show the kind of grace that End talks about (while not walking the talk), I let go of his earlier behaviour and gave him a second chance.

 

Then he started making more sexist comments about women, and extended this to offensive comments about LGBT people, including the innocent baby of a lesbian couple.  I have watched End for 10 months and I have seen a lot of offensive comments about certain groups in society and about members of ex-c.  

 

I made the decision to no longer tolerate this behaviour and started calmly pointing it out so people reading an End post for the first time would be aware he has a track record of making such comments.  I also hoped to make End aware that his views are out of step with contemporary values and that he might want to review them.

 

It now appears that End is so reluctant to admit that he might be wrong about women and LGBT people, that he is using "blame, denial and minimisation", but particularly blame, to deflect from taking responsibility for his actions.  In the xian tradition that I was raised in, I was taught that it's one thing to ask god to forgive your sins; you also need to make an effort to "sin no more".  The jesus I was introduced to, loved and respected everyone, regardless of gender or (theoretically) sexual orientation.  I really wonder sometimes if End's imaginary relationship is with that jesus.

[mymistake]

 

 

Yes, I remember.  And in response I quoted the TV show True Detective.  I don't ask you these things to understand the religion that traps your mind.  I have been there and I know what it is like to be Christian.  I ask these questions to demonstrated that a God who creates hell does not love the world and people who need fear as a deterrent are the worst kind of people.

 

Did you realize there are people who are good even though they believe there is no heaven or hell?  They think they will never be punished for doing evil and never be rewarded for doing good but most of the time they make the right choice anyway.  Obviously, they are not called Christians.

 

You jump in and out of the conversation. If you want to discuss Christianity, then stay within context. 

 

The context of Christianity is that is is a man-made religion that enslaves millions of people.

 

 

 

Yeah, and God chose people because they were doing the right thing, you remember? And you do remember that Christ comes to the lost? The implication that there are some that are not lost?

 

How is this outside of the story?

 

 

God and Christ are imaginary.  This is why Christians have such a hard time being personally responsible, or for that matter understanding ethics or morality.  Christians have one imaginary person to help them get right with another imaginary person and they waste so much time and energy on that so proper behavior with real people is only an after thougth.

[bornagainathiest]

End,

 

Even if there is a history of friction between you and FTNZ, now that she's online, this can be your chance to put that all behind you and start afresh.

 

Is this not what Jesus would have you do?

 

All you have to do is take her off 'ignore' and put that offer to her.

 

This in no way compromises your integrity.

 

Also, you will gain a great of respect in this forum if you make the effort to meet her halfway on this and let bygones be bygones.

 

How about it?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I thought this was particularly relevant to End's beliefs about women and LGBT people.

 

BTW he once referred to Hispanics in Texas as "wetbacks".

 

[bornagainathiest]

Well I've posted nearly thirty messages in this thread today, starting very early this morning.

 

Now circumstances force me to bow out.

 

I'll be back tomorrow.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA. 

 

 

[nukedkitty]

Made it back NK. Man, I feel the love. What may I attempt to clarify if you are still awake.

Forgiveness.

[Guest end3]

 

Made it back NK. Man, I feel the love. What may I attempt to clarify if you are still awake.

Forgiveness.

 

I am aware of the concept, but don't really believe it. And have never had a revelation that makes it real for me. So I'm sorry, but I don't think I can give you my bottom line on forgiveness.

[Guest end3]

 

 

Yes, I remember.  And in response I quoted the TV show True Detective.  I don't ask you these things to understand the religion that traps your mind.  I have been there and I know what it is like to be Christian.  I ask these questions to demonstrated that a God who creates hell does not love the world and people who need fear as a deterrent are the worst kind of people.

 

Did you realize there are people who are good even though they believe there is no heaven or hell?  They think they will never be punished for doing evil and never be rewarded for doing good but most of the time they make the right choice anyway.  Obviously, they are not called Christians.

You jump in and out of the conversation. If you want to discuss Christianity, then stay within context.

 

 

The context of Christianity is that is is a man-made religion that enslaves millions of people.

 

 

 

Yeah, and God chose people because they were doing the right thing, you remember? And you do remember that Christ comes to the lost? The implication that there are some that are not lost?

How is this outside of the story?

 

 

 

 

 

Although I understand what you are saying, half the battle is putting it in a language that the other person will "hear".

[nukedkitty]

 

 

Made it back NK. Man, I feel the love. What may I attempt to clarify if you are still awake.

Forgiveness.

 

I am aware of the concept, but don't really believe it. And have never had a revelation that makes it real for me. So I'm sorry, but I don't think I can give you my bottom line on forgiveness.

 

End3, can you not explain the christian doctrine of forgiveness.

[Guest end3]

End3, can you not explain the christian doctrine of forgiveness.

Sure intellectually, but believing something means to me that it has to be on some level where it becomes truth. Have had many revelations on various concepts within Christianity, but never one on forgiveness.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

Made it back NK. Man, I feel the love. What may I attempt to clarify if you are still awake.

Forgiveness.

 

I am aware of the concept, but don't really believe it. And have never had a revelation that makes it real for me. So I'm sorry, but I don't think I can give you my bottom line on forgiveness.

 

 

Gee that's funny, I thought forgiveness is mentioned in the bible a lot, so someone who has been a xian for years should have been exposed to lots of sermons, bible studies and other conversations about it?

 

I did a search on biblegateway.com, and yes, it is mentioned a lot...

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=forgive

 

121 Bible results for “forgive.” Showing results 1-25.

Suggested result

Matthew 6:15 [Full Chapter]

But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Just remembered the thread topic... xian responsibility.  Is End on topic or deflecting again?

[mymistake]

Just remembered the thread topic... xian responsibility.  Is End on topic or deflecting again?

 

 

In this case he is ON topic when he deflecting.    

[nukedkitty]

 

End3, can you not explain the christian doctrine of forgiveness.

Sure intellectually, but believing something means to me that it has to be on some level where it becomes truth. Have had many revelations on various concepts within Christianity, but never one on forgiveness.

 

End3, I am asking you about God's forgiveness because I want to know if you believe that theres is also some condition it could be taken away from you.

[mymistake]

 Have had many revelations on various concepts within Christianity, but never one on forgiveness.

 

 

 

Uh, no.  We are the ones who have had many revelations about Christianity.  I seriously doubt that you have learned much because you have not deconverted yet.

 

 

If you think Galaxy Quest is a historical document then you don't know much about Galaxy Quest.

[Guest end3]

 

 

End3, can you not explain the christian doctrine of forgiveness.

Sure intellectually, but believing something means to me that it has to be on some level where it becomes truth. Have had many revelations on various concepts within Christianity, but never one on forgiveness.

 

End3, I am asking you about God's forgiveness because I want to know if you believe that theres is also some condition it could be taken away from you.

 

Sure, I believe it can be taken away.

[nukedkitty]

 

 

 

End3, can you not explain the christian doctrine of forgiveness.

Sure intellectually, but believing something means to me that it has to be on some level where it becomes truth. Have had many revelations on various concepts within Christianity, but never one on forgiveness.

 

End3, I am asking you about God's forgiveness because I want to know if you believe that theres is also some condition it could be taken away from you.

 

Sure, I believe it can be taken away.

 

End3, if you could honestly forgive yourself, could it ever be taken away from you.

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

 

End3, can you not explain the christian doctrine of forgiveness.

Sure intellectually, but believing something means to me that it has to be on some level where it becomes truth. Have had many revelations on various concepts within Christianity, but never one on forgiveness.

 

End3, I am asking you about God's forgiveness because I want to know if you believe that theres is also some condition it could be taken away from you.

 

Sure, I believe it can be taken away.

 

End3, if you could honestly forgive yourself, could it ever be taken away from you.

 

If we can remember, how can we forgive. Why is it ok to forgive ourselves.

[Fweethawt]

If you think Galaxy Quest is a historical document then you don't know much about Galaxy Quest.

Please don't give some douchebag christian any reason to shit on Galaxy Quest. Its one of my favorite comedies.

[nukedkitty]

 

 

 

 

 

End3, can you not explain the christian doctrine of forgiveness.

Sure intellectually, but believing something means to me that it has to be on some level where it becomes truth. Have had many revelations on various concepts within Christianity, but never one on forgiveness.

 

End3, I am asking you about God's forgiveness because I want to know if you believe that theres is also some condition it could be taken away from you.

 

Sure, I believe it can be taken away.

 

End3, if you could honestly forgive yourself, could it ever be taken away from you.

 

If we can remember, how can we forgive. Why is it ok to forgive ourselves.

 

Because whatever we believe we need from the world becomes our master, and if you believe "you" can forgive yourself  you will no longer be ruled by the world.

[mymistake]

 

 

If we can remember, how can we forgive. 

 

 

Forgive does not mean forget.  Really forgiving has nothing to do with forgetting.

 

 

 

Why is it ok to forgive ourselves.

 

 

Because you are a being that lives, learns and grows.  In the present you understand more than you did in the past.  In the future you will understand more than you do now.

[duderonomy]

 

There would be no need for Christ if Christians could live up to that standard. It's a given that all humanity "isn't cool" to some degree.

 

To the hell question, I expect God is there too.

 

 

End3, can you call yourself a Christian if you don't live up to the standard that Jesus set?  What else would you be then? A wannabe? A hopeful?  Certainly not a New Creature? 

 

Hell?  Yes, God will be there too. You don't have to expect it, you can be sure of it. Whither would you go from His presence?

[nukedkitty]

 

 

 

 

 

 

End3, can you not explain the christian doctrine of forgiveness.

Sure intellectually, but believing something means to me that it has to be on some level where it becomes truth. Have had many revelations on various concepts within Christianity, but never one on forgiveness.

 

End3, I am asking you about God's forgiveness because I want to know if you believe that theres is also some condition it could be taken away from you.

 

Sure, I believe it can be taken away.

 

End3, if you could honestly forgive yourself, could it ever be taken away from you.

 

If we can remember, how can we forgive. Why is it ok to forgive ourselves.

 

Because whatever we believe we need from the world becomes our master, and if you believe "you" can forgive yourself  you will no longer be ruled by the world.

 

End3, my statement bothers me, I feel it needs to be clarified.

 

The reason I think people must learn to forgive themselves is that self forgiveness can't be conditional,  and it can never be used against you. How can you ever take away something you give to yourself. 

[Ravenstar]

Self-forgiveness is accepting that you are not perfect… but is useless unless there is the will to change - because continuing to do the same things will only lead to apathy - the psyche can only take so much failure before it shuts down to protect the ego. One can only change things by realistically accepting where one is… you can't change what you can't see. You won't change things you can't accept about yourself. The subconscious doesn't know the difference between what is real and what you think. (this is deep, and important) All change ultimately comes from the subconscious.. through the conscious, by willful action.

 

Guilt and shame can be great pointers, to show yourself where you have violated your own moral sense, but held on to for too long can poison the psyche and self-esteem to the point where it saps one's energy to change, or strive to be a better person at all. To forgive ones self is to turn a page and begin to write a new script, a fresh start… focusing on the negative only, makes it larger and harder to conquer. This is the point where people come to the point of believing THEY can't really DO anything or change themselves at all. It's a lie.

 

One can be humble and teachable without wallowing in self-flagellation or submitting to an outside authority. One can be moral without constantly berating oneself. This is the basics of things like CBT, DBT and other psychological methods for mental and emotional health.

 

Consistent personal responsibility is akin to mastery… and mastery is the key to self-esteem. Only accomplishment will build a healthy psyche, wishful thinking won't do it, prayer won't do it, meditation won't do it, only action - failure and successes and a steady climb to ones goals will… if it's in the mind only then it's narcissism, not self-esteem.

 

One can rationalize being a dick, or not being responsible (aka - being hurtful to ones self or others), and feel okay about it for a while through mental gymnastics and self-pity/feeling offended (butthurt), but if one continues in this the subconscious will know better and will mess you up eventually. Deep down you will know you have failed… and the cycle continues, because to not accept this you will either turn it inward, or lash out at others...

 

That's what I have learned about personal responsibility and the self, in my few years on this little mud ball.

 

Christian responsibility is a much larger order… the standard is pretty damn high. As part of a very vocal and active group espousing certain values and even trying to impose those values on others, one is a walking EXAMPLE of the entire group. An ambassador, if you will. people will judge the entire value system of the group by your behaviour. (example - the disdain people have for moderate Muslims in the face of extremist violence)

 

For Ex-Christians, who are very aware of the standards set by the Bible, it is even more glaring. The example set by Christ was of poverty, homelessness, patience, extreme generosity, understanding, acceptance of those who did not live his values (sinners), going out of his way to heal, feed and care for others, respect for personal choices (note that he ALWAYS asked if the person wanted what he offered, i.e.: healing, he understood boundaries and respected others right to choose for themselves), rejecting retaliation as a way to live (love thine enemies), commitment (marriage, to the faith, to witnessing - all very extreme - to the point of walking away from a regular life if one wanted to actually be his disciple) In other words he promoted saying what one means and meaning what one says, and sticking to it. (no lying! No going back on one's promises!) Calling the religious authorities on their corruption (The Temple fiasco) and rejecting wealth and comfort for ones ideals, as well as rejecting the need for recognition (public prayer and public displays of piety). And number one on the list… not judging others… which I see as his understanding that we are all human - and we have NO idea what another has gone through or experiences to be where they are, nor can we.

 

That's a tall order and I would say less than .1% of Christians actually live up to it. In my eyes those are the only real christians. However, if most would just practice the one… non-judgment, the world would be a much better place. It comes down to rejecting the elitism inherent in christianity. A quality I can't seem to find in Jesus' words. I think he meant it to be inclusive… originally. (Of course he focused on the Hebrews, except for one Samaritan - so who really knows?)

 

So.. basically, don't be a dick, and show the world your best expression of truly following your God.     Namasté