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Christians: Why would an all-good God base our salvation from Hell on whether or not we believe in a 2,000-year-old supernatural story?

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And care to explain what you mean by "not everyone who is not a christian is lost"? So can we be saved even if we are not a christian? 

 

I take it that Stranger means that those who will later become Christians aren't lost because they were predestined.

 

Anyway, kudos for pointing out serious flaws in his claims. Of course, I fully expect your points to be ignored, but if you have the time and patience to deal with him, then more power to you.

 

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If your beliefs cause fear, shame, guilt, yes, it's wrong to teach them that. I didn't like it as an adult. Imagine how magnified your fear of God, Satan, Hell might be if you're raised that way. Ask some others here about their psycho religious upbringing.

 

Punishments for a child when they start thinking for themselves and question Christianity. Or even deny it. Will it be ok if your children decide not to believe in Jesus?

 

No, my parents taught me that religious people rely on something that isn't there, other than their own mind. They were atheist/agnostic. The church I attended as an adult actually instilled some fear and guilt but I made it go away.

 

 

 

So, your parents taught you their beliefs.  Who gave them that right?

 

Why shouldn't Christians be allowed to teach their children their beliefs?

 

We do not shame  our children.  We do not make them afraid of God.  We do teach them the fear of the Lord.  That He is to be respected for Who He is.  That He is worthy of our worship. That we are sinners.   That there is a heaven and hell.  That Christ died for us.   

 

My children will be no different than any others.  They will believe or not believe.   Adam and Eves first child was not saved, and he spoke to God.

 

Stranger

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That is *not* what I said.  I quite obviously learned many useful skills from my parents (chemistry, astronomy and electronics in my example, along with gardening, carpentry, baking, sewing, and how to operate audiovisual equipment).  Fortunately they did not teach me how to worship a mythical zombie rabbi from the eastern Mediterranean region.

 

 

 

 

Aw, giving up so soon?  Your forfeit of the challenge is noted.

 

 

Did they teach you right from wrong?   

 

Stranger

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But Christianity is dysfunctional bullshit. It's not true and it causes people to be fearful, guilty and shamed. Sinner mentality. Ashamed when they do or think something normal in society that is wrong in the bible. That's silly.

 

Again, you assume what Christianity is based on is not true.   You don't know.

 

Knowing the fear of the Lord is not dysfunctional.   How does that make one dysfunctional?    

 

Knowing that I am guilty of sin leads me to the Saviour.   How is that dysfunctional?

 

Stranger

 

 

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" My prayers won't work in your life.  "

 

So all things are not necessarily possible with God? Losing faith? :)

 

Not at all.  Prayer is not a game.  (Matt. 4:1-11)

 

And,  the believer is not required to pray for anyone at any time.  (John 17:9)

 

Stranger

 

 

 

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If something is true and yet demands that it be taught as true, then that is brainwashing.

 

If something is false and yet demands that it be taught as true, then that is brainwashing.

 

Anything, whether true or false, that demands that it be taught as true, is brainwashing.

 

 

 https://www.openbible.info/topics/teaching_children ...?  

 

The Bible may or may not be true, but so long as it demands that it be taught as true then it locks all those who are taught it as true into an unbreakable, multi-generational cycle of brainwashing.

 

They end up being unable to question it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And if something is false, any demand to teach it as false is also brainwashing?

 

No, they don't end up being unable to question it?      They can always question it.   

 

Stranger

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Did they teach you right from wrong?

 

They probably gave me a few basic guidelines, but mostly I figured it out by myself by the time I was 5 years old.  They certainly didn't need to threaten me with the wrath of some invisible pissant in the sky; I behaved well all on my own, without that kind of nonsense, and without the feeling that something was watching my every move.  Watching my own moves was sufficient.

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If something is true and yet demands that it be taught as true, then that is brainwashing.

 

If something is false and yet demands that it be taught as true, then that is brainwashing.

 

Anything, whether true or false, that demands that it be taught as true, is brainwashing.

 

 

 https://www.openbible.info/topics/teaching_children ...?  

 

The Bible may or may not be true, but so long as it demands that it be taught as true then it locks all those who are taught it as true into an unbreakable, multi-generational cycle of brainwashing.

 

They end up being unable to question it.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And if something is false, any demand to teach it as false is also brainwashing?

 

No, they don't end up being unable to question it?      They can always question it.   

 

Stranger

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And if something is false, any demand to teach it as false is also brainwashing?

 

I don't understand what you mean here.

 

No, they don't end up being unable to question it?      They can always question it.   

 

Physician heal thyself!

Your activities, behavior and responses in Ex-C clearly demonstrate that you are unable to question what you have been taught, Stranger.  

Unless you can point to an example where you question what the Bible says?  

Can you show us where you have questioned?  

Please?

 

BAA.

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Physician heal thyself!

Your activities, behavior and responses in Ex-C clearly demonstrate that you are unable to question what you have been taught, Stranger.  

Unless you can point to an example where you question what the Bible says?  

Can you show us where you have questioned?  

Please?

 

BAA.

 

@Stranger, you're running out of time.  You have until we reach page 50 (max) of this thread.

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Bald assertion. Back this statement up. In Aramaic there is a word for virgin - betulah. Almah on the other hand is as you state is a young woman of marrying age. Most likely almah's would be virgins, since back in those days being unmarried, not a virgin, and an almah was a death sentence.

 

This is important in the context of the 'prophesy' - the fact the word almah is used indicates that the writer didn't actually expect a "virgin conception" but rather that a young woman of marrying age would conceive - using the only way to conceive in those days. Trying to say that Isaiah 7:14 is literally saying a virgin will conceive without intervention from a man is perverting the context.

 

 

Now you have an issue here - if you want to hold to your near and future fulfillment that means there have been TWO virgin births in history. Do you accept this?

 

And again, no the term for virgin is "betulah". The word used is almah and means young woman. Don't go changing definitions to suit your fancy - that's called perversion... which ironically is what is being discussed.

 

 

Only you would try this dishonest shit. Seriously what is more likely...

 

1) I accept the prophesy as true for its time or

2) I am using the phrase "prophesy" in relation to Isaiah for conversational convenience? 

 

(Edit - Haha, I just read Sdelsolray's post which picked up this very thing! I requote Sdelsolray here for effect "An infantile attempt to try to force someone to "admit" poster Stranger's belief.  A demonstration of disingenuous behavior (LF's post was a hypothetical which assumed a prophecy for the purposes of discussion only)." )

 

Once again, only Stranger would try this shit out on people that he must know by now don't fall for this shit... and its shit Stranger, you are either intellectually retarded, or blatantly dishonest.

 

Compare (Gen. 24:16) with (Gen. 24:43)

 

I have no issue.   I explained already that the term used for young woman of marrying age does not  have to speak to a virgin birth.   But it can speak to a virgin birth.  Which Matthew says it does when applied  to Jesus Christ.  Thus both near and far fulfillment's are addressed.  That it has a near fulfillment is clear as seen in chapters (8-9).   That a far fulfillment is required is clear because the birth will be One who is Divine.  

 

Stranger

 

 

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Compare (Gen. 24:16) with (Gen. 24:43)

 

I have no issue.   I explained already that the term used for young woman of marrying age does not  have to speak to a virgin birth.   But it can speak to a virgin birth.  Which Matthew says it does when applied  to Jesus Christ.  Thus both near and far fulfillment's are addressed.  That it has a near fulfillment is clear as seen in chapters (8-9).   That a far fulfillment is required is clear because the birth will be One who is Divine.  

 

Stranger

 

 

 

Is this an example of you questioning what you've been taught from childhood, Stranger?

 

 

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Is this an example of you questioning what you've been taught from childhood, Stranger?

 

 

 

One can have questions about the Bible and not question the Bible.   

 

I see I was given a requirement to prove I question something in the Bible.   I have till page 50.  But that ain't going to happen.  

 

If that requirement remains, there is no need for me to continue.

 

If so, it has been a pleasure.

 

Stranger

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@Stranger, you're running out of time.  You have until we reach page 50 (max) of this thread.

 

No need to wait till page 50.   I will never question what the Bible says.

 

It's been a pleasure.

 

Stranger

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One can have questions about the Bible and not question the Bible.   

 

I see I was given a requirement to prove I question something in the Bible.   I have till page 50.  But that ain't going to happen.  

 

If that requirement remains, there is no need for me to continue.

 

If so, it has been a pleasure.

 

Stranger

 

And your negative ministry in this forum has and will turn many away from Jesus Christ.

 

Thank you for your help, Stranger.

 

BAA.

 

 

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No need to wait till page 50.   I will never question what the Bible says.

 

It's been a pleasure.

 

Stranger

 

43 minutes ago the Stranger wrote...

 

And if something is false, any demand to teach it as false is also brainwashing?

 

No, they don't end up being unable to question it?      They can always question it.   

 

Stranger

.

.

.

Please draw your own conclusions, folks.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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Bloody Oath! You hit the nail on the head here!

 

Different sandbox.

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Stranger,  if you would, please read the following excerpt from the Westminster Confession of Faith (1642, per Wikipedia)  and indicate to what extent it matches your beliefs:

 

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.

As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected . . . are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power. through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice."

 

Thanks,

TABA

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The Bible may or may not be true, but so long as it demands that it be taught as true then it locks all those who are taught it as true into an unbreakable, multi-generational cycle of brainwashing.

 

They end up being unable to question it.

 

 

 

Inability (or fear when one begins) to question God, the bible or church doctrine is a red flag that you are being deceived. 

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So, your parents taught you their beliefs.  Who gave them that right?

 

They didn't say I should or should not believe in God. Everyone teaches their kids what they think is right. So what? Sometimes a teaching isn't right. 

 

 

 

Why shouldn't Christians be allowed to teach their children their beliefs?

 

Teaching children to fear God, Satan, Hell, is wrong because these things don't exist and it makes people fearful.

 

 

 

 

We do not shame  our children.  We do not make them afraid of God.  We do teach them the fear of the Lord.  That He is to be respected for Who He is.  That He is worthy of our worship. That we are sinners.   That there is a heaven and hell.  That Christ died for us.

 

Thinking that one's self is a sinner does not help one's self esteem.

 

My children will be no different than any others.  They will believe or not believe.   Adam and Eves first child was not saved, and he spoke to God.

 

Stranger

 

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Again, you assume what Christianity is based on is not true.   You don't know.

 

Do you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? He is our Lord and Savior. I hope you don't just assume Pastafarianism is not true. You don't know. If you don't know for sure then it would greatly behoove you to consider His Noodleyness.

 

Yes yes, anything and everything (no matter how bizarre) that can't be disproved must be given the benefit of the doubt, right? Better start studying up on Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Greek Gods, Norse Gods, etc. You never know when Thor might pop into your living room and ask you what the name of his Brother is? It could mean the difference between Valhalla and the Underworld. :) You just. Dont. Know. Best to shoot some prayers up his way.

 

 

 

 

Knowing the fear of the Lord is not dysfunctional.   How does that make one dysfunctional?    

 

See previous replies about fear, shame and guilt causing dysfunction in people.

 

See also https://iocdf.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/IOCDF-Scrupulosity-Fact-Sheet.pdf

 

If you don't want to read that pdf, basically it involves OCD behavior caused by religious fear.

 

 

Knowing that I am guilty of sin leads me to the Saviour.   How is that dysfunctional?

 

I'm not guilty of any biblical sin committed by an ancestor. Original sin is total baloney. Thoughts and behaviors that harm nobody are not sins. Christianity is based on false guilt. Kowtowing to your imaginary friend was causing me discomfort so I stopped. That is why people are here. Because Jesus didnt work out for them.

 

 

 

 

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No need to wait till page 50.   I will never question what the Bible says.

 

It's been a pleasure.

 

Stranger

 

I enjoy the freedom to not be told how to think or what to 'not' think about. Not everything we have been taught is necessarily true or useful. Whether it's the bible or my parents' staunch self-reliance, I will choose my own way. You will choose your way and then give Jesus the credit. 

 

I just thought of another dysfunction born out of Christianity.

 

Christian dysfunction affects other people, not just the Christian:

 

Not issuing wedding licenses to gays even though it's your job.

Not baking wedding cakes for gays even though it's your business to do that.

Not selling the morning after pill in your pharmacy because ....Jesus.

Screwing with insurance coverage for contraceptives.

Employment discrimination against non-Christians - Chick Fil A

Anti-abortion violence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

Stealing Iraqi religious artifacts. LoL.

 

 

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You never know when Thor might pop into your living room and ask you what the name of his Brother is? It could mean the difference between Valhalla and the Underworld. :) You just. Dont. Know. Best to shoot some prayers up his way.

 

Officially, Baldr, Víðarr and Váli.

 

Unofficially, with a dad known as the Allfather -- well, rather a lot of chaps.

 

(And, of course, a sister informally known as the Loose Cannon of the Æsir. ;))

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Luke 15:1-32 ESV / 

Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.” So he told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing...

 

Matthew 5:44 ESV / 

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

 

Romans 10:1-4 ESV / 

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

So here we have a few versus that exhort praying for the unbeliever.

 

 

Convenient - does that mean you can decide not to pray for us?

 

And care to explain what you mean by "not everyone who is not a christian is lost"? So can we be saved even if we are not a christian? 

 

Thanks for taking the time to do this for me LF. I couldn't be bothered. :3:

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Compare (Gen. 24:16) with (Gen. 24:43)

 

Deflection - we are talking about Isaiah not Genesis. They were written by different people, at different times, about different subjects.

 

 

I have no issue.   I explained already that the term used for young woman of marrying age does not  have to speak to a virgin birth.   But it can speak to a virgin birth.  Which Matthew says it does when applied  to Jesus Christ.  Thus both near and far fulfillment's are addressed.  That it has a near fulfillment is clear as seen in chapters (8-9).   That a far fulfillment is required is clear because the birth will be One who is Divine.  

 

Nearly 50 pages and you still do not know what a bald assertion is. You have nothing in the bible, from the prophet, that states that the prophesy is supposed to be near and far. This is a Christian New Testament perversion of the OT.

 

And you failed to answer this most enlightening question. Please do so before we reach our max number of pages:

 

Now you have an issue here - if you want to hold to your near and future fulfillment that means there have been TWO virgin births in history and TWO messaiahs. Do you accept this?

 

 

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One can have questions about the Bible and not question the Bible. 

 

Haha, I just burst out laughing at work.... O.X.Y.M.O.R.O.N

 

oxymoron
ˌɒksɪˈmɔːrɒn/
noun
  1. a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g. faith unfaithful kept him falsely true ).
     
    Or eg. you can have questions about the bible without questioning the bible.... no if you don't question the bible you have no questions about the bible and you accept it all as true.
     
 

I see I was given a requirement to prove I question something in the Bible.   I have till page 50.  But that ain't going to happen.  

 

I am still perplexed as to Strangers point of being here... it obviously wasn't to question his belief's, he is not genuinely interested in arguments against God and the bible, and he doesn't seem to be trying to save lost souls.

 

So Stranger what is/was your purpose here? You came onto an Ex-Christian site while you are Christian - you had some purpose in mind yes? Or is you purpose like your questioning abilities? i.e. non existent.

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