How Do You Justify Worshipping a god in an Evil World?

October 29, 2019

Further to @disillusioned post, I do not think evil 'exists' as some Christians do. It's not an entity unto itself. It's not like the light and dark side of the force. As God is the personification of good for many, Satan seems to be the personification of evil for many.

I agree with D's point about putting on a theistic hat when making the argument from the problem of evil. What we are saying is if a God that is defined as all knowing, all good, and all powerful exists then whence cometh evil... or Satan for that matter.

As for defining what evil is, I too find it hard to define, but I know what it is when I see it.

October 29, 2019

Looking closely at the title of this thread, two thoughts occur to me.

1.

Perhaps it should read, 'How do you justify worshiping a GOOD god in an EVIL world?' This would help to identify the god in question as being the god of the Bible, who is declared by scripture to be only good and to have no evil, sin or darkness in him.

2.

But, if the Bible god is not under the one under the spotlight, does the thread title actually mean this? 'How do you justify worshiping [any] god in an evil world?'

Food for thought.

Walter.

October 29, 2019

16 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Looking closely at the title of this thread, two thoughts occur to me.

1.

Perhaps it should read, 'How do you justify worshiping a GOOD god in an EVIL world?' This would help to identify the god in question as being the god of the Bible, who is declared by scripture to be only good and to have no evil, sin or darkness in him.

2.

But, if the Bible god is not under the one under the spotlight, does the thread title actually mean this? 'How do you justify worshiping [any] god in an evil world?'

Food for thought.

Walter.

Good points. I think the implication is that #1 is in effect.

I've specifically ruled out arguing against an evil god. I mean it stands to reason that worshiping an evil god in an evil world is logical and probably justified.

October 29, 2019

2 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

This is bordering on no true scotsman. Apparently I wasn't a true Christian and didn't have the proper knowledge to come to God. Despite believing the same things my church did, reading the bible, hearing the preaching. Believe me when I say I tried to find God. I can only conclude he doesn't exist or doesn't wish to reveal himself to me... in which case that to me looks the same as not existing.

No I am not saying that you you you didn't sincerely want to come to God, in no way was I inferring that and I do apologize for giving that impression. When I say without knowing what one must do then I am saying that you weren't given a realistic chance. Say the question whether or not to believe in maps getting you to a destination. If you don't know how to read the map but are told simply believe the map and it will get you to your destination, then in that situation a person couldn't have realistically attempted to reach their destination because they didn't a realistic change of reaching their destination.

Since the scriptures give a specific starting point that a person must begin with, then what two things did you understand would be required of you at the starting point?

October 29, 2019

21 minutes ago, WalterP said:

Looking closely at the title of this thread, two thoughts occur to me.

1.

Perhaps it should read, 'How do you justify worshiping a GOOD god in an EVIL world?' This would help to identify the god in question as being the god of the Bible, who is declared by scripture to be only good and to have no evil, sin or darkness in him.

2.

But, if the Bible god is not under the one under the spotlight, does the thread title actually mean this? 'How do you justify worshiping [any] god in an evil world?'

Food for thought.

Walter.

3 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Good points. I think the implication is that #1 is in effect.

I've specifically ruled out arguing against an evil god. I mean it stands to reason that worshiping an evil god in an evil world is logical and probably justified.

Y'all think too much.

October 29, 2019

2 minutes ago, Justus said:

No I am not saying that you you you didn't sincerely want to come to God, in no way was I inferring that and I do apologize for giving that impression. When I say without knowing what one must do then I am saying that you weren't given a realistic chance. Say the question whether or not to believe in maps getting you to a destination. If you don't know how to read the map but are told simply believe the map and it will get you to your destination, then in that situation a person couldn't have realistically attempted to reach their destination because they didn't a realistic change of reaching their destination.

Since the scriptures give a specific starting point that a person must begin with, then what two things did you understand would be required of you at the starting point?

The flaw in your reasoning here, though, is that, according to the bible, god has already given everyone what it takes to believe and understand. As it is written:

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." Romans 12:3

Therefore, we already know how to read the maps; but most still do not reach the destination.

October 30, 2019

4 hours ago, florduh said:

If evil needs to be defined for you, religion isn't going to do you any good. How about we start with the example of the ten year old sex slave being discussed here. Since you won't be able to address that particular problem either, perhaps we could look at slavery in general, torture, genocide and Kanye West.

Hey if there is no god as you claim, then I take that as an admission on your part that God doesn't have any responsibility for that ten year old being used as a sex slave, so I find your example the fruit of your hypocrisy since you don't acknowledge any responsibility for telling those who would conduct such atrocities that are only subject to their own conscience since you affirm than bear no responsibility to any higher authority than self.

I would say that problem has been addressed per Genesis 6:3, but you can't even acknowledge the authority of a principle even when the empirical evidence affirms its validity.

October 30, 2019

1 minute ago, Justus said:

Hey if there is no god as you claim, then I take that as an admission on your part that God doesn't have any responsibility for that ten year old being used as a sex slave, so I find your example the fruit of your hypocrisy since you don't acknowledge any responsibility for telling those who would conduct such atrocities that are only subject to their own conscience since you affirm than bear no responsibility to any higher authority than self.

I would say that problem has been addressed per Genesis 6:3, but you can't even acknowledge the authority of a principle even when the empirical evidence affirms its validity.

I did not make such a claim. I ask that you merely support YOUR claim. However, this tangent is far off the topic at hand. The point is that we are discussing YOUR god and his action/inaction and how that jibes with Scripture and your personal definition of this God. What I believe or don't believe is irrelevant in this thread. Essentially, Christians are put in the position of defending their god; I have nothing to defend, only questions.

October 30, 2019

43 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Therefore, we already know how to read the maps; but most still do not reach the destination.

If you already know how to read the map, then who taught you, did you teach yourself or were you taught?

October 30, 2019

3 minutes ago, florduh said:

I did not make such a claim. I ask that you merely support YOUR claim. However, this tangent is far off the topic at hand. The point is that we are discussing YOUR god and his action/inaction and how that jibes with Scripture and your personal definition of this God. What I believe or don't believe is irrelevant in this thread. Essentially, Christians are put in the position of defending their god; I have nothing to defend, only questions.

The old saying feed man a fish and he eats for that day, teach a man to fish and he can feed himself. If the man staves to death because he is being told that fishing is BS and he gives up on believing that he can catch a fish then who is really to blame?

October 30, 2019

1 minute ago, Justus said:

The old saying feed man a fish and he eats for that day, teach a man to fish and he can feed himself. If the man staves to death because he is being told that fishing is BS and he gives up on believing that he can catch a fish then who is really to blame?

Continuing to deflect, I see. Never mind, I'm done.

October 30, 2019

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Y'all think too much.

Thinking too much is never a criticism… not thinking enough or at all is the problem.

October 30, 2019

26 minutes ago, Justus said:

If you already know how to read the map, then who taught you, did you teach yourself or were you taught?

god has given unto every man the measure of faith.

October 30, 2019

2 hours ago, Justus said:

The old saying feed man a fish and he eats for that day, teach a man to fish and he can feed himself. If the man staves to death because he is being told that fishing is BS and he gives up on believing that he can catch a fish then who is really to blame?

Justus, every post you've made so far is very unhelpful. I don't know if you really don't get the point or if you're just pretending not to get the point.

The subject is a discussion as to whether the christian god can be both all good and also all powerful, yet allow evil to exist. Simple. It's actually a yes or no question. If yes, you can explain why. If no, you can explain why. Your answers and explanations can be analyzed for logic, reason and truth value content.

You haven't directly answered the opening post. And the above is running off topic into area unrelated to the discussion. How do you justify worshipping the christian god in an evil world that that god necessarily allows to remain evil? Forget that we're atheists, it doesn't matter. Can you answer the question?

October 30, 2019

4 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

god has given unto every man the measure of faith.

A measure is a part of, but not the whole measurement of faith. IMO Thus, as written, 'faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by __________________________.

Well, filling in the blank with the word of God ,I would fill it in with John 5:25

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by _the voice of the Son of God..

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:25

Now, I am not sure what reward your received for diligently seeking after him, Heb 11:6

October 30, 2019

8 hours ago, Justus said:

No I am not saying that you you you didn't sincerely want to come to God, in no way was I inferring that and I do apologize for giving that impression.

Cool, no worries.

8 hours ago, Justus said:

When I say without knowing what one must do then I am saying that you weren't given a realistic chance. Say the question whether or not to believe in maps getting you to a destination. If you don't know how to read the map but are told simply believe the map and it will get you to your destination, then in that situation a person couldn't have realistically attempted to reach their destination because they didn't a realistic change of reaching their destination.

This must apply to literally billions worldwide. May I ask (Off topic slightly, though it may tie in) what will happen to these billions that "weren't given a realistic chance"? I can't be the only one right?

8 hours ago, Justus said:

Since the scriptures give a specific starting point that a person must begin with, then what two things did you understand would be required of you at the starting point?

We are talking about belief in God. Like TRP pointed out, the bible claims that all men know God exists, which is contrary to reality (Or at least my reality.) However I would use a different verse to point this out: Romans 1:20-21 states, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

Apparently I don't need a starting point as stated above.

I found an interesting article on this subject if you are interested in perusing https://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2012/05/do-atheists-know-god-exists.html

On a theological aside to directly answer your question with my Christian hat on, the starting point as I understood it was; believe in Jesus Christ and be baptized for the remission of sins per Acts 2:38. Every person baptized (and I was baptized.. still technically am I guess) would be asked to confess this. Same question for every person about to be baptized: "Do you repent of your sins and believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour for the remission of sins?" (That I can remember it word for word years later attests to how well ingrained this was.)

October 30, 2019

1 hour ago, Justus said:

A measure

The measure of faith is what the scripture says. Not a measure.

Fail.

October 31, 2019

On 10/28/2019 at 10:07 PM, LogicalFallacy said:

This was first discussed by the Greek philosopher Epicurus

The problem of evil proposes that the two main premises – that is 1) God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good, and 2) evil exists – are logical contradictions.

Note this problem does not argue against an evil or malicious God if such one existed. However this is not a particular concern as most people worship a God that they consider to be all good and the progenitor of objective moral values. This argument shows that reality is inconsistent with such a God given, and this is important, certain attributes. My response to any apologetic that may say well God might not be all good, or might not be our definition of good, or might not be all powerful is that why is such a God worth of worship if it existed?

I also discuss in the Biblical Contradictions section the contradictory accounts of God being or causing evil or not.

The logic problem can be summarised as this:

God exists.

God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.

A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.

An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.

An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.

A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.

If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.

Evil exists (logical contradiction). (Source Why-do-atheists-think-there-is-no-god )

The logical conclusion there being that both evil and God as stated in the logic problem cannot co-exist. However I do expand this to cover another potential aspect which most Christians might not like to think about:

9. Therefore if God exists then God is at least part evil as per #2 you cannot have a God with evil existing if God is perfectly good.

10. If God is part evil then he is no better than humans as this reduces God to nothing more than an evil dictator who visits evil upon the world.

11. So why worship such a God?

Christians, this content is still being ignored, evaded, and red herring's are being thrown around. Straw men are being raised and beaten. What gives?

On the assumption that you are correct, a god exists and that god IS the bible god, and that bible god is "all good," the above logical contradiction needs your attention. Tell readers about the logical contradiction folks! Care to explain to everyone?

Never mind who is or isn't atheist. That's not the point. Never mind what some atheist's definition of "evil" is, that's not the point either. Take the standard christian influenced definition of "evil" and apply it to the logical contradiction above if you prefer. Atheism has nothing to do with the fact that (1) you worship a contradiction as your god and (2) your god can't be both all good and all powerful if sin exists in the world.

Why worship such a god in your opinions? For what reason?

October 31, 2019

17 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

The measure of faith is what the scripture says. Not a measure.

Fail.

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure,. Lev 19:35

You might want to check out the website LEARN ENGLISH.

What are English grammar articles? An article is a word that is used before a noun to show whether the noun refers to something specific or not. A, an and the are articles.

So your ability to believe is given, but the substance of your belief without evidence isn't faith.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thing not seen.

Back in 2014, on this site I stated that man's life span was set at 120 years of age by the LORD, according to scripture. Only once since science researchers studying the longevity of living persons has there been one claim of anyone living beyond 120 years of age has been reported as verified. Of course it would only take one person actually living beyond 120 years that would debunk the 120 year principle I was speaking of, then of course it any plea for assistance to review the substance of the verified claim would probably seem foolish to some, but then again not everyone places any value in the truth.

3 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

Christians, this content is still being ignored, evaded, and red herring's are being thrown around. Straw men are being raised and beaten. What gives?

If principles are considered as straw men then you might consider that they got better things to do.

October 31, 2019

If scripture says that the life span of man is set at 120 years

And 99% of humanity does not live to 120 years

Should we accept scripture?

October 31, 2019

6 hours ago, Justus said:

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure,. Lev 19:35

You might want to check out the website LEARN ENGLISH.

What are English grammar articles? An article is a word that is used before a noun to show whether the noun refers to something specific or not. A, an and the are articles.

So your ability to believe is given, but the substance of your belief without evidence isn't faith.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thing not seen.

Back in 2014, on this site I stated that man's life span was set at 120 years of age by the LORD, according to scripture. Only once since science researchers studying the longevity of living persons has there been one claim of anyone living beyond 120 years of age has been reported as verified. Of course it would only take one person actually living beyond 120 years that would debunk the 120 year principle I was speaking of, then of course it any plea for assistance to review the substance of the verified claim would probably seem foolish to some, but then again not everyone places any value in the truth.

If principles are considered as straw men then you might consider that they got better things to do.

If you don't understand the difference between "the" and "a", then you're not intelligent enough to converse with, and probably won't be, even if you live for 120 years. Have a good day.

October 31, 2019

8 hours ago, Justus said:

If principles are considered as straw men then you might consider that they got better things to do.

Straw men are considered as straw men. And you raised a straw man informal fallacy with RP going into the discussion. You're still as of your last post evading the topic. We're talking about something else instead of the topic. That's a red herring. We can't have these topics going on and on senselessly, off topic for over 10 pages all the time. LF had to bring down the hammer on the last off topic thread. It will happen again if christians can't seem to stay on topic and address the actual content of the discussion.

What is the objective, christians?

People read these threads. Are you content making yourselves look bad for everyone to read through? Not being able to answer simple questions? Not being able to stay on topic without raising straw man arguments, throwing red herrings, and evading all the time? All you're doing is making yourselves look bad. Nothing else is coming from these tactics. You're given a platform to speak here and knock us into oblivion with your superior religion. So do it! Come on! Let's see what you got!