God is Real

[AustinAustin]

Did you know that God can be found if you seek Him? We live in a new era where age old questions are now being answered like never before. Proof of God is before you, if you want it:

 

Why should there be an absolute standard of reasoning if everything is simply “molecules in motion”? Most atheists have a materialistic outlook—meaning they believe that everything that exists is material, or explained by material processes. But laws of logic are not material! If atheistic materialism is true, then there could be no laws of logic, since they are immaterial. Thus, logical reasoning would be impossible! if atheism were true, the atheist would not be able to reason or use laws of logic because such things would not be meaningful. How could there be laws at all without a lawgiver? Laws of logic owe their existence to the biblical God. Yet they are required to reason rationally, to prove things. So the biblical God must exist in order for reasoning to be possible. Therefore, the best proof of God’s existence is that without Him we couldn’t prove anything at all! The existence of the biblical God is the prerequisite for knowledge and rationality. 

 

Thank you for reading.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 hours ago, AustinAustin said:

Did you know that God can be found if you seek Him? We live in a new era where age old questions are now being answered like never before. Proof of God is before you, if you want it:

 

Why should there be an absolute standard of reasoning if everything is simply “molecules in motion”? Most atheists have a materialistic outlook—meaning they believe that everything that exists is material, or explained by material processes. But laws of logic are not material! If atheistic materialism is true, then there could be no laws of logic, since they are immaterial. Thus, logical reasoning would be impossible! if atheism were true, the atheist would not be able to reason or use laws of logic because such things would not be meaningful. How could there be laws at all without a lawgiver? Laws of logic owe their existence to the biblical God. Yet they are required to reason rationally, to prove things. So the biblical God must exist in order for reasoning to be possible. Therefore, the best proof of God’s existence is that without Him we couldn’t prove anything at all! The existence of the biblical God is the prerequisite for knowledge and rationality. 

 

Thank you for reading.

 

Im sorry Austin. Your argument is weak. The laws of the biblical God are not logical. The creation story isn't logical, the story of the tower of babel isn't logical. It isn't logical to put all of mankind under a death sentence that leads to eternal damnattion because the first two people ate of a fruit that apparently gave them the knowledge of good and evil.

 

How does knowing what good and evil are equate to being worthy of hellfire? That isn't logical. You would think you would want your people to know the difference between good and evil so that they would not commit evil acts. Without the knowledge evil acts would be done with no conscience of any wrong doing. 

 

I really hope you want to continue the logical biblical God argument because there are scripture I would love for you to expound the logic of God's law in certain circumstances. 

 

DB

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I don't think I've ever once in my entire life heard an atheist argue that everything is material or operates by means of material process.  After all, even godless heathens understand the existence of love, emotion, longing, and nostalgia, none of which necessarily follow a material process.  Nice strawman, though.

 

Also, for the sake of argument, let's pretend you're right that logic is impossible.  How, then, do you make the leap to the existence of a god?  I doubt you really understand logic; but one of the basic logic platforms is what we call "if-then".  If A is true, then B must be false; or, if A=B and B=C, the A must equal C.  So, "if logic doesn't exist, then god must exist" is an attempt to follow logic... which doesn't exist.  Bless your heart.

[AustinAustin]

7 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Im sorry Austin. Your argument is weak. The laws of the biblical God are not logical. The creation story isn't logical, the story of the tower of babel isn't logical. It isn't logical to put all of mankind under a death sentence that leads to eternal damnattion because the first two people ate of a fruit that apparently gave them the knowledge of good and evil.

 

How does knowing what good and evil are equate to being worthy of hellfire? That isn't logical. You would think you would want your people to know the difference between good and evil so that they would not commit evil acts. Without the knowledge evil acts would be done with no conscience of any wrong doing. 

 

I really hope you want to continue the logical biblical God argument because there are scripture I would love for you to expound the logic of God's law in certain circumstances. 

 

DB

Hello DarkBishop,

 

The Laws of logic are immaterial, and can't be materially made. If God isn't real, the laws of logic cannot exist.

 

A rock cannot create logic, nor institute an absolute standard of reason. God is real.

[AustinAustin]

35 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I don't think I've ever once in my entire life heard an atheist argue that everything is material or operates by means of material process.  After all, even godless heathens understand the existence of love, emotion, longing, and nostalgia, none of which necessarily follow a material process.  Nice strawman, though.

 

Also, for the sake of argument, let's pretend you're right that logic is impossible.  How, then, do you make the leap to the existence of a god?  I doubt you really understand logic; but one of the basic logic platforms is what we call "if-then".  If A is true, then B must be false; or, if A=B and B=C, the A must equal C.  So, "if logic doesn't exist, then god must exist" is an attempt to follow logic... which doesn't exist.  Bless your heart.

Hello. If the immaterial can exist, then that opens the door for God's Existence. Emotions are materially explained by chemicals within a brain. Logic is not impossible, we are using logical reasoning now.

[AustinAustin]

37 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I don't think I've ever once in my entire life heard an atheist argue that everything is material or operates by means of material process.  After all, even godless heathens understand the existence of love, emotion, longing, and nostalgia, none of which necessarily follow a material process.  Nice strawman, though.

 

Also, for the sake of argument, let's pretend you're right that logic is impossible.  How, then, do you make the leap to the existence of a god?  I doubt you really understand logic; but one of the basic logic platforms is what we call "if-then".  If A is true, then B must be false; or, if A=B and B=C, the A must equal C.  So, "if logic doesn't exist, then god must exist" is an attempt to follow logic... which doesn't exist.  Bless your heart.

 

7 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Im sorry Austin. Your argument is weak. The laws of the biblical God are not logical. The creation story isn't logical, the story of the tower of babel isn't logical. It isn't logical to put all of mankind under a death sentence that leads to eternal damnattion because the first two people ate of a fruit that apparently gave them the knowledge of good and evil.

 

How does knowing what good and evil are equate to being worthy of hellfire? That isn't logical. You would think you would want your people to know the difference between good and evil so that they would not commit evil acts. Without the knowledge evil acts would be done with no conscience of any wrong doing. 

 

I really hope you want to continue the logical biblical God argument because there are scripture I would love for you to expound the logic of God's law in certain circumstances. 

 

DB

I appreciate you both reading what I've written.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

16 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

Hello. If the immaterial can exist, then that opens the door for God's Existence. 

Certainly.  But you've posited proof of the existence of specifically the christian god.  Leaving aside that atheists do not claim that everything is material, how does the immaterial prove the existence of specifically the christian god?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

20 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

Emotions are materially explained by chemicals within a brain.

So is belief in god.

[AustinAustin]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Certainly.  But you've posited proof of the existence of specifically the christian god.  Leaving aside that atheists do not claim that everything is material, how does the immaterial prove the existence of specifically the christian god?

 

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

So is belief in god.

Because the immaterial existing shows it is possible for God to Exist. Once it's accepted that a Creator must Exist, we can establish it is God.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, AustinAustin said:

Logic is not impossible, we are using logical reasoning now.

We are having a meaningful discussion, which is not the same as using logical reasoning.  One thought built upon another is not the same as logic, nor is a well presented difference of opinion.

 

Still, your argument is predicated on a logical fallacy, vis a vis a strawman.  Atheism simply does not argue that everything is material nor that the immaterial cannot, or does not exist.  A position built upon an incorrect foundation will generally yield a  faulty conclusion.  House built on sand and what not.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

 

Because the immaterial existing shows it is possible for God to Exist. Once it's accepted that a Creator must Exist, we can establish it is God.

Yes; but you still have not established that; you've merely shown it possible.

[AustinAustin]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

We are having a meaningful discussion, which is not the same as using ligical reasoning.  One thought built upon another is not the same as logic, nor is a well presented difference of opinion.

 

Still, your argument is predicated on a logical fallacy, vis a vis a strawman.  Atheism simply does not argue that everything is material nor that the immaterial cannot, or does not exist.  A position built upon an incorrect foundation will generally yield a  faulty conclusion.  House built on sand and what not.

You are using logic right now, proving the point of the logic example. Logic can't exist without God, as logic can't be made, an a universal absolute standard of reason cannot be made either -yet they exist.

 

[AustinAustin]

4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Yes; but you still have not established that; you've merely shown it possible.

Do you accept that a Creator must Exist?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

36 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

Do you accept that a Creator must Exist?

No.

[AustinAustin]

5 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

No.

I appreciate your honesty.

 

How does logic exist without a Creator? How does an absolute standard exist, and why isn't the existence of such evidence for design?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

38 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

You are using logic right now, proving the point of the logic example. Logic can't exist without God, as logic can't be made, an a universal absolute standard of reason cannot be made either -yet they exist.

 

This is mere assertion.  Again, built on a faulty foundation.  Allow me to reiterate: one thought built upon another is not the same as logic, especially if the original thought is faulty.  Logic exists because ancient philosophers invented it.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

How does logic exist without a Creator?

https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-logic#:~:text=There was a medieval tradition,on a rock in Egypt.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

 How does an absolute standard exist, and why isn't the existence of such evidence for design?

Logic is not an absolute standard.  It is merely a progression of thought processes which allow users to draw well-designed (though, not always correct) conclusions. 

[AustinAustin]

4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

This is mere assertion.  Again, built on a faulty foundation.  Allow me to reiterate: one thought built upon another is not the same as logic, especially if the original thought is faulty.  Logic exists because ancient philosophers invented it.

It's possible that ancient philosphers invented or discovered logical reasoning, but logic is much more, including: math, causation, etc.

 

Causation is when cause happens before effect. If you were right then before logic was invented, things were happening before they were caused -negating the need to invent logic.

 

If logic's existence were dependent upon humanity, all logic would be gone were humanity to disappear. However, this modus ponens would still be logical -respectfully proving your idea wrong.

[AustinAustin]

3 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/history-of-logic#:~:text=There was a medieval tradition,on a rock in Egypt.

No, share your answer please.

[AustinAustin]

1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Logic is not an absolute standard.  It is merely a progression of thought processes which allow users to draw well-designed (though, not always correct) conclusions. 

Now your battle is with science, not me.

 

Think about it: when you consider something, don't you consider whether it makes sense? Logic is the absolute standard of reason.

[AustinAustin]

4 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Logic is not an absolute standard.  It is merely a progression of thought processes which allow users to draw well-designed (though, not always correct) conclusions. 

[God does not overlook sin and] the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who in their wickedness suppress and stifle the truth, ¹⁹ because that which is known about God is evident within them [in their inner consciousness], for God made it evident to them. ²⁰ For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense. ²¹ For even though ^[d]they knew God [as the Creator], they did not ^[e]honor Him as God or give thanks [for His wondrous creation]. On the contrary, they became worthless in their thinking [godless, with pointless reasonings, and silly speculations], and their foolish heart was darkened. ²² Claiming to be wise, they became fools...

 

Romans 1 Amplified Bible

[TheRedneckProfessor]

48 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

Causation is when cause happens before effect. If you were right then before logic was invented, things were happening before they were caused -negating the need to invent logic.

Granted.  "Invented" was a poor choice of words.  However, everything that exists existed before anybody (specifically human) invented/discovered/rationalized it, including the immaterial concepts of time, gravity, and Leprechaun-specific jock itch.  None of that points to the existence of a god, much less to your personal conception of the christian god. 

 

Your argument is that if something exists, then it must have been created.  Does god exist?  If so, who/what created him, her, or it?  Oh, you say god always existed without being specifically created?  Perhaps the same is true for gravity, time, and, dare I say, logic.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

54 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

Now your battle is with science, not me.

 

Think about it: when you consider something, don't you consider whether it makes sense? Logic is the absolute standard of reason.

No.  My argument is with your assertion that a) logic exists as an absolute and b) the existence of logic as an absolute proves the christian god exists.  Logic may be the best standard of reason we presently have; but if it were an absolute, people wouldn't consistently run headlong into situations they hadn't ought.  Because the absolute would prevent it.  As it stands, people's propensity to acting and speaking without forethought precludes logic as an absolute.

 

Again, though, even if logic existed as an absolute, it would not prove the existence of the christian god.  In fact, the consistent application of absolute logic would lead to a flawless, nearly inerrant, humanity, rendering the christian god obsolete and unnecessary. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

59 minutes ago, AustinAustin said:

[God does not overlook sin and] the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who in their wickedness suppress and stifle the truth, ¹⁹ because that which is known about God is evident within them [in their inner consciousness], for God made it evident to them. ²⁰ For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense. ²¹ For even though ^[d]they knew God [as the Creator], they did not ^[e]honor Him as God or give thanks [for His wondrous creation]. On the contrary, they became worthless in their thinking [godless, with pointless reasonings, and silly speculations], and their foolish heart was darkened. ²² Claiming to be wise, they became fools...

 

Romans 1 Amplified Bible

Ho! The atiyoga of natural perfection! Dzogchen Ati!
The Great Perfection, in its unbiased inclusivity,
actualizes the meaning of self-sprung awareness;

as the lion overawes all other beasts with his roar,
so the language of Great Perfection commands the gradual approaches;
speaking a tongue of its own, it engenders its own ultimate meaning.

The land of natural perfection is free of buddhas and sentient beings;
the ground of natural perfection is free of good and bad;
the path of natural perfection has no length;
the fruition of natural perfection can neither be avoided nor attained;
the body of natural perfection is neither existent nor nonexistent;
the speech of natural perfection is neither sacred nor profane;
and the mind of natural perfection has no substance nor attribute.

The space of natural perfection cannot be consumed nor voided;
the status of natural perfection is neither high nor low;
the praxis of natural perfection is neither developed nor neglected;
the potency of natural perfection is neither fulfilled nor frustrated;
the display of natural perfection is neither manifest nor latent;
the actuality of natural perfection is neither cultivated nor ignored;
and the gnosis of natural perfection is neither visible nor invisible.

The hidden awareness of natural perfection is everywhere,
its parameters beyond indication,
its actuality incommunicable;

the sovereign view of natural perfection is the here-and-now,
naturally present without speech or books,
irrespective of conceptual clarity or dullness,
but as spontaneous joyful creativity
its reality is nothing at all.

Longchenpa