ISRAEL PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

[Fish153]

DarkBishop--

Thank you. You are right. Jesus was compassionate to Judas. He even washed his feet, knowing what Judas was about to do. So I thank you for the reminder.

 

On a side note though we do have to be careful about what we consider "Christ-like" though. Remember when Jesus overturned the tables in the Temple, and "whipped" the money changers? Apparently one of them was heard yelling "that's not very Christ-like of you Jesus!"

 

But I'll keep in mind what you've said and try to show more compassion where I can.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Fish153 Have you ever been a Muslim?  Have you ever prayed to Quan Am?

[Fish153]

Hierophant--

People asked Jesus "what shall we do to do the works of God?" Jesus said "this is the work of God that you believe on Him whom He has sent".

 

Read Ephesians 2:8-10. It says we are saved by Grace through faith-- not of ourselves, it is the GIFT of God. It goes on to saybwe are saved UNTO good works (verse 10). We are not saved BY our works, but UNTO good works. James is basically saying the same thing. "You say you are saved? Show me your works".

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Fish153 Have you ever been a Muslim?  Have you ever prayed to Quan Am?

[Hierophant]

17 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Hierophant--

People asked Jesus "what shall we do to do the works of God?" Jesus said "this is the work of God that you believe on Him whom He has sent".

 

Read Ephesians 2:8-10. It says we are saved by Grace through faith-- not of ourselves, it is the GIFT of God. It goes on to saybwe are saved UNTO good works (verse 10). We are not saved BY our works, but UNTO good works. James is basically saying the same thing. "You say you are saved? Show me your works".

 

I have met plenty of Christians who disagree with that idea. What do you do with Jesus telling all his disciples they must do? What about the would-be disciples? If it was just about believing, what's so hard about that?

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Is this coming down to a contest of who gets the last word in?  If so, I would be glad to let fish be the winner.

[Fish153]

The last word is VESTIBULE.

 

Gol darn Martha I won the whole thing! Do ya think they'll give me a prize or somethin'? It's Christmas for crying out loud!

[freshstart]

On 12/22/2021 at 10:58 PM, Fish153 said:

. I have visited boards like this on and off for years.

Maybe somebody has already asked this question along the way, but why?  I'm always genuinely curious to understand why a Christian would come to a site like this.   What are you attempting to accomplish?  Or what is it that entertains you or fulfills you by being here?  An honest answer is appreciated.

Please also share what it takes to change your beliefs  Clearly you don't believe in the creation story as many other Christians do (a literal 6 days or a young earth). It seems science has had some impact there. Would you be willing to read other authors and scientists who examine additional stories in the bible, perhaps exploring other points of view?  Do you really want to understand how we became ex-christians or is it too uncomfortable to humor us?

[Astreja]

11 hours ago, Fish153 said:

midnite--Oh yes, God knows some will "choose" to go to the Lake of Fire despite his merciful call to them. But he did not create the Lake of Fire for man.

 

Then it's your god's responsibility to keep humans out of there, unconditionally.

 

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We are finite-- we know SO LITTLE.

 

True, but then you said this:

 

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God is infinite and understands far more than we ever can.

 

First of all, you have no way of knowing that that is true.  If you yourself are not infinite and omniscient, you are not capable of having sufficient knowledge of this alleged god's nature.  Secondly, you haven't provided sufficient evidence to us that this alleged god even exists, so when you assign traits like "infinite" to it, you've committed an existential fallacy.

 

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Now, consider WHYJesus would need to die on a cross for our sins.

 

No one "needs" to die, let alone for someone else.  It's a moot point anyway:  Since in your mythology he didn't stay dead, there was no actual sacrifice and therefore the "payment" bounced.  No permanently dead deity = no sacrifice = no salvation.

 

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God came a LONG WAY, and went through immense suffering to provide the way back to God.

 

FFS, I've had worse menstrual cramps.  And hamstring pulls.  More than three hours' worth, and no all-expenses-paid trip to the Great White Throne either.

 

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 I say this seriously: if you wind up in the Lake of Fire YOU will be responsible for it.

 

No.  Your god -- the supposed creator of hell -- remains eternally 100% responsible for all suffering therein.

 

Why do you worship an evil god, Fish?

[Astreja]

8 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Redneck--

I already shared why I believe they are false gods. Jesus said "all that have come before me are thieves and robbers..." thus Buddha is eliminated.

 

I know of nothing in any Buddhist sutra that indicates that Shakyamuni was ever a thief or a robber.  Therefore, the Jesus of the gospels (or more likely the writer who put those words in his mouth) is a liar.

[Fish153]

freshstart--

Thanks for posting. I thought I had been banned as there were no new posts. lol. But I must say that Redneck has been EXTREMELY fair as a moderator and has basically allowed freethinking to be expressed-- despite his distaste for my ideas. I appreciate that very much!

 

The reason I come to these boards (I haven't for about 5 years) is for a couple of reasons. First, the subject of apostasy intrigues me deeply. How someone could believe, and then turn away permanently just doesn't seem possible-- and yet it is.

 

But how? I have even TRIED to NOT BELIEVE, but I am always called back by the Lord. I ask myself if it's really possible for someone to be truly born-again and then leave the faith for good, and I cannot accept it. Deconverts become extremely angry when I say they never really believed. But you see-- I believe, and God will not let me go-- how are they able to just walk away?

 

I believe the key lies in this: John the Apostle called himself "the disciple whom Jesus loved". Note that he doesn't say "the disciple who loved Jesus"-- no, he says "the disciple whom Jesus loved".

 

By this we see that TRUE FAITH is not US HOLDING ONTO JESUS. No-- true faith is believing JESUS IS HOLDING ONTO US.

 

When deconverts say they "just couldn't continue to believe" they are calling faith something WE DO. When we let go we no longer believe according to them.  But true faith is not based on our effort to believe-- it is ACCEPTING that Jesus is holding ONTO US.

 

I believe most deconverts never truly believed (despite their protests to the contrary). They were "churchians", not really Christians. They are the people of John 6--"disciples" who were ABLE to turn away from Jesus for good. Jesus says in John 6 that they never truly believed (I suggest you read that chapter to see this-- it says Jesus KNEW who BELIEVED NOT-- shortly after these people turned away).

 

However, I also believe there are some "deconverts" who may have truly accepted Christ. They have "let go" of CHRIST-- but He has not "let go" of THEM. These are the ones who secretly worry, and would give anything to return to Christ-- but they have been deceived into believing they have lost all faith--when in reality Jesus is waiting for them to come back. They just need to acknowledge that their worry and desire actually comes from the Holy Spirit, who is still working in their hearts.

 

Secondly, I think I visit the boards due to a great fear I once had-- that I had committed the unpardonable sin. I used to plead with Jesus "oh please don't let me become an apostate!" I had been convinced I had been "cast off" by God. It was excruciating internal pain. I could not eat or sleep at first, and this continued for (10) years. It was horrible!

 

But I began to pray to Jesus that if I wasn't an apostate please show me one. Shortly thereafter I was with some Christians evangelizing one night, and handing out Gospel tracts. A young man approached and began laughing. He said loudly "I used to be into that SHIT!!"  And I inwardly "heard" the Spirit say "that is an apostate".

 

Wow. The guy was calling what I found so precious, that I was in excruciating internal pain for fear of losing it SHIT. He was calling the Gospel message SHIT. And here I was fearing I might be an apostate! How wrong I was! I wasn't an apostate at all. I loved Jesus SO MUCH the thought of losing Him brought overwhelming grief. And here was a man saying "I used to be into that SHIT".

 

So sometimes I visit these boards to see and hear real apostates, and remember my deliverance from past fear and deception. It is a visit to past memories.

 

Lastly, I have read MANY books about apostasy, apostates, atheism, cults, religions, philosophy, etc. and I am convinced I will die a Christian. Nothing has ever persuaded me that Christianity is untrue. My faith is stronger now (my trust that Jesus is holding onto me) than when I first believed.  Thanks for listening freshstart.

[Astreja]

5 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

I have even TRIED to NOT BELIEVE...

 

Belief isn't something that we can consciously turn on or off.  It seems to operate in the unconscious mind, and if we find something sufficiently convincing it becomes part of our beliefs.  If we then acquire credible information that destroys the foundation of that belief, there's a very real chance of losing the belief.

 

I have a question:  Did you grow up in a Christian household, with parents who at least occasionally went to church?

[walterpthefirst]

Please address my question, Fish.

 

Since you've admitted that it's all in your head, can I persuade you that what's inside my head is true and what's inside your head is false?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[LogicalFallacy]

I think ya'll playing chess with a pigeon at this point. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 hours ago, Fish153 said:

But I must say that Redneck has been EXTREMELY fair as a moderator and has basically allowed freethinking to be expressed-- despite his distaste for my ideas. I appreciate that very much!

Perhaps you could return some of that kindness by answering my question.  Just a thought.

 

Have you ever been a Muslim?  Have you ever prayed to Quan Am?

[freshstart]

6 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Lastly, I have read MANY books about apostasy, apostates, atheism, cults, religions, philosophy, etc.

I think you misunderstood my question. I wasnt asking whether you read about apostasy. I was asking if you have read any scholars or educated yourself about the bible from other (secular) points of view. Or is this something you purposely stay away from? There are free online courses (for example) offered by Yale University on both the old and new testament. It might help you to better understand how Christians, theologians even, have deconverted -rather than constructing a belief about how this could possibly happen so that it makes sense to you (and you only) and by your own admission helps to soothe your own fears about becoming an apostate, yourself.

 

The reason people become angry when you tell them they weren't really true Christians is because its insulting and verbally abusive to tell someone, especially total strangers, what their "real life story" was, according to you. You're not God. You don't know our hearts nor do you have any idea how earnest and faithful we were in our beliefs, our practices, and our Bible study. To say that you do comes off as very prideful and arrogant. But I understand why you do that. You're unable to fathom rhe possibility that TRUE Christians (like you) could "fall away" and that scares you. You cry out to God and instead of getting direct answers from Him, you have to go searching for them and that brings you to places like this, even though you were already "shown" an apostate on the street. You've already partially deconverted by acknowledging that the earth was not created in 6 literal days. We just continued the exploration that you started. Its that simple and, at your stage in the deconversion process, its  terrifying. So you are struggling to make sense of ex-Christians and to hang on to your beliefs.

Listen, believe what you want to believe if that makes you comfortable.

One other question: when you get to heaven and you realize all the people you tried to convert are suffering in hell, will you still feel joyous - or will God perform some sort of magic so that it doesn't bother you that he's torturing people (maybe some people you actually care about?) in hell?

[nontheistpilgrim]

Fish: when you deconvert, will you promise to come back here and tell the community about it? I think many of us would like to hear the story and I promise we will not gloat, that's not our style .Please.

 

By the way, do you celebrate Christmas?

[walterpthefirst]

Please address my question, Fish.

 

Since you've admitted that it's all in your head, can I persuade you that what's inside my head is true and what's inside your head is false?

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

[Fish153]

Walter--

It depends. Do you walk around in a uniform dressed like Napoleon and fake a French accent?? Then I would say what's in your head is false.

[Fish153]

freshstart/non-theist--

Oh that was YEARS ago. I no longer fear becoming an apostate. The Holy Spirit answered my prayer and SHOWED me a real Apostate. I mentioned him in my post. He was the fellow who said loudly with a mocking laugh "I USED TO BE INTO THAT SHIT" when he heard us sharing the Gospel.

 

No. I will never deconvert. I have been a Christian for 49 years now and my faith is stronger now than it was when I was 20. I have read MANY studies and commentaries on the Bible. I have studied Biblical criticism and much of it is written by very ignorant men who believe they are very intelligent.

 

As God says " thinking themselves to be wise they became fools..." the Bible says that not me, so I'm calling no one a fool-- I am simply repeating a verse in the Bible.

 

I could never turn back for good. God is holding onto me too tight now to do that. I have endured many tests of faith. I have learned how weak I am, but also HOW STRONG He IS.  I will die a Christian for sure.

 

You know, the amount of MUSLIMS, HINDUS AND BUDDHISTS who become born-again Christians FAR OUTWEIGHS born-again Christians who become Muslims, Hindus or Buddhists. Example: Once you have tasted real dark chocolate you will not want to accept any substitutes. Jesus is the real Lord.

[nontheistpilgrim]

12 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

freshstart/non-theist--

Oh that was YEARS ago. I no longer fear becoming an apostate. The Holy Spirit answered my prayer and SHOWED me a real Apostate. I mentioned him in my post. He was the fellow who said loudly with a mocking laugh "I USED TO BE INTO THAT SHIT" when he heard us sharing the Gospel.

 

No. I will never deconvert. I have been a Christian for 49 years now and my faith is stronger now than it was when I was 20. I have read MANY studies and commentaries on the Bible. I have studied Biblical criticism and much of it is written by very ignorant men who believe they are very intelligent.

 

As God says " thinking themselves to be wise they became fools..." the Bible says that not me, so I'm calling no one a fool-- I am simply repeating a verse in the Bible.

 

I could never turn back for good. God is holding onto me too tight now to do that. I have endured many tests of faith. I have learned how weak I am, but also HOW STRONG He IS.  I will die a Christian for sure.

 

You know, the amount of MUSLIMS, HINDUS AND BUDDHISTS who become born-again Christians FAR OUTWEIGHS born-again Christians who become Muslims, Hindus or Buddhists. Example: Once you have tasted real dark chocolate you will not want to accept any substitutes. Jesus is the real Lord.

Fish, you have nothing to fear! Just open your mind, open it, to the fact that maybe different philosophies to yours. Like me, you may be 'surprised by joy'.

Oh, and 'never say never'.

 

[nontheistpilgrim]

8 minutes ago, nontheistpilgrim said:

Fish, you have nothing to fear! Just open your mind, open it, to the fact that there maybe different philosophies to yours. Like me, you may be 'surprised by joy'.

Oh, and 'never say never'.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Fish153 said:

Walter--

It depends. Do you walk around in a uniform dressed like Napoleon and fake a French accent?? Then I would say what's in your head is false.

 

That's fair enough.

 

But since you've admitted that your beliefs are all within your head, what chance do you have of persuading others about your beliefs with what's in there?

 

Surely you would have to use something from outside of your head to do that?

 

Like objective evidence.

 

Have you got any?

 

Hint:  Try reading this to understand what objective evidence is.

 

 

[mwc]

     Okay @Fish153 I think I see what you're driving at.  The Isaiah scroll shows what god wanted then and here it is again to show that we should probably take it seriously.  So, we should probably do the same with all the DSS, right?  They wouldn't just be there for no reason?  We are talking about a very important event with the DSS and Israel after all.  It can't just be all about the one scroll or even a few.  So it certainly must be about the entire library.  Not to verify against what we have decided what is canon but as god's canon handed back to us from the past as well as the various community texts showing us the proper way to live.  This is almost as good as god dropping his word out the sky, correct?  But only if we accept it in its entirety.

 

          mwc

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 hours ago, Fish153 said:

As God says " thinking themselves to be wise they became fools..."

god also says, "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."  Matthew 5:22 (emphasis mine). 

 

I guess that means god will burn in hell with the rest of us.  Serves him right.  He could have gone to heaven with the angels and the sweet baby jesus; but he made his choice.  What a fool.

 

By the way, have you ever been a Muslim or prayed to Quan Am?