ISRAEL PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

[Fish153]

Hierophant--

I do not need examples of free will. I have seen them. And yes, they seem to contradict God's sovereignty. But there are two sides to every coin. It is a mystery and something we really don't understand. As I have stated before we DONT KNOW EVERYTHING.  When the Israelites fled from the Egyptians it appeared they had two options: turn back and be captured or killed, or move forward and drown.

 

But you see, God had a THIRD OPTION. He opened a pathway across the sea. Free will and God's sovereignty appear to clash-- but maybe God knows something we don't Hierophant. Maybe there's A THIRD explanation that only God knows.

 

Please spare me the evading of what I have written by asking for "proofs" of the Red Sea crossing, because that's not the point. Whether you believe it happened or not there were indeed THREE choices they could make in the end-- and thank God they chose to follow the pathway through the sea provided for them.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Fish,

Can you not see what you are describing here?

You are NOT describing any items of evidence that link the two historical events.

You are describing different interpretations by different people - Christians, Jews, non - believers, etc.

These interpretations do NOT exist anywhere but in the minds of the people in question.

In the same way, when you asked us to consider the odds, you are NOT talking about any item of evidence.

You are describing judgments that each of us make ONLY within our own minds.

In your post you make NO reference to any evidence that links the historical events.

Instead, you ONLY refer to what is happening in people's minds.

So, I'll pose the question again, this time phrased in a slightly different way.

 

Do the judgments / interpretations that believers make exist anywhere but in their own minds?

 

Thank you.

Walter.

 

 

 

Please answer this question, Fish.

 

 

Do the judgments / interpretations that believers make about the two historical events exist anywhere but in their own minds?

 

 

Walter.

[walterpthefirst]

Did you notice something else about your response to me, Fish?

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Thank you Fish.

If the evidence that links these two events does not reside just in the minds of believers, then please show it to us.

Fyi, doing that should not involve you repeating the claims that you've already made in this thread.

Those claims reside only in the minds of believers because the believers themselves make a mental connection between the two events.

Since you have discounted that, when you show us where this evidence is, you should not refer back to this mental connection.

So Fish, please show us where, outside of the believer's mind, this evidence is.

Thank you.

Walter.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

You'll see that I asked you NOT to refer to anything within believer's minds but to present the evidence that lies outside of them.

 

The evidence that links the two historical events, NOT what they think about them.

 

But your reply did the opposite of what I asked.

 

You referred ONLY to what Christians, Jews and non-believers think about the odds.

 

Which is, of course, what they...  THINK about them.

 

You referred ONLY to what goes on inside their heads.

 

So, can you please stop referring to what happens inside people's heads, because you ruled that out, insisting that the evidence exists outside of their heads.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

31 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

I do not find the Buddhist or the Muslim "absurd" for praying to God. At least they are acknowledging there IS a greater being than themselves.

 

I just believe they are not praying to the REAL God.

Well, now, son, you haven't even established yet that your god actually exists.  How can you say, with any authority, that someone else's god isn't real?  You started out with PROOF, which quickly became evidence; then you slipped up and accidentally admitted that the whole thing was a coincidence.  You've tried to rectify that by saying there is evidence but it only exists in the minds of believers, which is no different from me saying I have a Vietnamese Luck Dragon living in my pasture, but only the pure of heart can see her.  Now, apparently, you're happy enough if we just accept a higher power or a being greater than ourselves.  A far cry from PROOF that your specific god exists.

 

How do you know that the Buddhist and the Muslim are praying to a false god? 

 

Please note: I don't give a shit what you believe or what your holy book says.  I am asking how you know.  This means "because the bible says..." is not an acceptable answer.

[Hierophant]

30 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Hierophant--

That's fine-- continue to believe in your fallacies-- they are an easy out for you. I will believe in God.

 

And you are free to do so. I was hoping you came here to learn, perhaps question what you believe and why you believe it. But alas, I was to be disappointed. 

[Hierophant]

22 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Hierophant--

I do not need examples of free will. I have seen them. And yes, they seem to contradict God's sovereignty. But there are two sides to every coin. It is a mystery and something we really don't understand. As I have stated before we DONT KNOW EVERYTHING.  When the Israelites fled from the Egyptians it appeared they had two options: turn back and be captured or killed, or move forward and drown.

 

But you see, God had a THIRD OPTION. He opened a pathway across the sea. Free will and God's sovereignty appear to clash-- but maybe God knows something we don't Hierophant. Maybe there's A THIRD explanation that only God knows.

 

Please spare me the evading of what I have written by asking for "proofs" of the Red Sea crossing, because that's not the point. Whether you believe it happened or not there were indeed THREE choices they could make in the end-- and thank God they chose to follow the pathway through the sea provided for them.

 

You've gone into the realm of theological speculations, which I am not going to bother with; because it would be the same as someone telling me about the history and character of Zeus, Attis, Dioynisus, and the host of other gods prior to, and after, Yahweh. 

[Fish153]

Walter--

You're jumping through hoops now. I explained that it is NOT established FACT. I can't prove (neither can anyone else) that the two events occurring FACTUALLY establishes that God is behind them.

 

I said believers, Jews, and even non-believers acknowledge the amazing odds involved for the events to occur as they did. I never said any of these PROVES beyond doubt that God was involved.

 

I only asked that you CONSIDER the events closely. But you apparently do not want to consider it unless you have FACTUAL PROOF. Well, that's not going to happen. So you won't even consider it, and that's fine. To each his own.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Fish153 How do you know that the Buddhist and the Muslim are praying to a false god? 

[Fish153]

Hierophant--

That's your prerogative. "Step right up folks!!! Before you is the Deconversion board,  where the curtains come down before the play begins!!!"

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Fish153 How do you know that the Buddhist and the Muslim are praying to a false god? 

[Fish153]

Redneck--

I already shared why I believe they are false gods. Jesus said "all that have come before me are thieves and robbers..." thus Buddha is eliminated. Jesus also said many would come in his name (future) and not to follow them. Muhammad claimed Jesus was just a prophet, and that he himself was the final one. Jesus said false prophets would come in his name.

 

I cannot PROVE AS FACT these are false gods any more than I can PROVE Jesus is God based on physical facts. It appears on this board that that might be all anyone will accept. Unless you have physical facts right in front of your nose you will reject any premise stated. That is impossible when dealing with spiritual things. I know what I and 1.2 billion other people have d found-- that Jesus is the answer. I cannot make you believe that, and I realize that.

[Hierophant]

8 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Hierophant--

That's your prerogative. "Step right up folks!!! Before you is the Deconversion board,  where the curtains come down before the play begins!!!"

 

I used to be just like you. 

 

I'll leave you with this, how do you know, without a doubt, you are saved? That was the question that I so desperately wanted to answer as a believer. In my quest to figure that out, I eventually studied myself out of the faith.

[midniterider]

5 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Redneck--

I already shared why I believe they are false gods. Jesus said "all that have come before me are thieves and robbers..." thus Buddha is eliminated. Jesus also said many would come in his name (future) and not to follow them. Muhammad claimed Jesus was just a prophet, and that he himself was the final one. Jesus said false prophets would come in his name.

 

I cannot PROVE AS FACT these are false gods any more than I can PROVE Jesus is God based on physical facts. It appears on this board that that might be all anyone will accept. Unless you have physical facts right in front of your nose you will reject any premise stated. That is impossible when dealing with spiritual things. I know what I and 1.2 billion other people have d found-- that Jesus is the answer. I cannot make you believe that, and I realize that.

 

All you need is a little faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster....and he will touch you with his noodley appendage. I cannot prove the FSM is real based on physical facts, though. But I know he is real because you scoff at his holy pasta-ness.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

58 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

 

But you see, God had a THIRD OPTION. He opened a pathway across the sea. Free will and God's sovereignty appear to clash-- but maybe God knows something we don't Hierophant. Maybe there's A THIRD explanation that only God knows.

 

According to the bible there were about 2 million people with their earthly belongings that crossed the sea.  Do the math.  People marching 10 abreast, 10 feet behind each other, (taking all their belongings, they would have probably been further apart)  would make a line about 200 miles long.  That is the distance between Egypt and the promised land.  That was a LOOONG crossing.  And that many people wandering in the desert in between for 40 years, half of them dying, have left no traces of them being there.  Sounds like a fairy tale to me.

 

Now I really do have to go get some work done.  Read my testimony for more similar biblical fantasy.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

6 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Redneck--

I already shared why I believe they are false gods. Jesus said "all that have come before me are thieves and robbers..." thus Buddha is eliminated. Jesus also said many would come in his name (future) and not to follow them. Muhammad claimed Jesus was just a prophet, and that he himself was the final one. Jesus said false prophets would come in his name.

So, rather than tell me how you know, you offer me what you believe based on what your holy book says.  Okay, since that is all you have, let's start there.  

 

@Krowb has been trying for several pages to get you to establish that the bible is a reliable authority in general, which, so far, you have failed to do.  Hell, you couldn't even tell @alreadyGone what language it was originally written in.  @Hierophant offered to show you scriptures from the bible that contradict one another concerning god's sovereignty,  an offer which you declined.

 

Here's the rub.  If the bible is not a reliable authority in general,  and the bible is not even a reliable authority on the biblical god, then there is absolutely no possible chance that the bible is a reliable authority on somebody else's god.  It can't even get its own god right.  How the fuck does it know anything about Quan Am or Allah?

 

So, since you have absolutely no actual knowledge, let's look at experience.  Have you ever been a Muslim?  Have you ever prayed to Quan Am?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

3 minutes ago, Weezer said:

would make a line about 200 miles long.  That is the distance between Egypt and the promised land.  That was a LOOONG crossing. 

Makes you wonder why the Pharoah needed to chase after them with his chariots and army.  Wouldn't half of them still be in Egypt when the front of the line got to the Red Sea?

[Fish153]

Hierophant--

I really have questioned some of things I believe. Hell has been a hard pill to swallow. But Jesus taught more about hell than any other person in the Bible.

 

I rebelled against the teaching until I truly considered it. Some Christians teach annihilation. Everyone who doesn't believe will simply be extinguished. But then I thought of the most evil leaders-- the Nazis and others. Will Mabel Williams in Alabama and Hitler both be extinguished on the same day? Mabel didn't believe, but the worst thing she ever did was kick a dog once. Hitler orchestrated the deaths of millions of people. Will he simply be extinguished? No-- it couldn't be. The unbelieving will be judged by their works before the Great White Throne.

 

Surely there is a "punishment" that matches the works done.

So I concluded there must be a hell (the Lake of Fire). But how long will a person stay in that Lake? How long would Hitler be tormented(not tortured)? A thousand years? 10,000 years?

 

Then I thought "it's easy to believe that people go to Heaven FOREVER AND EVER. Why is it so hard to believe that people will go to hell forever and ever? We don't want to believe that-- "God must be cruel" we think.

 

But then we must also think how Heaven would be Hell for wicked people. Hell is where they WANT to be, so God is giving them what they want in the end isn't he? They want nothing to do with God-- so God is granting their wish.

 

But what about poor Mabel from Alabama? Well, it appears that hell has many levels-- some receive many "lashes", and some receive "few".

 

Do I understand hell? No. Do I believe in hell? Yes. It is part of Christian Doctrine. I d must accept that God will explain why it exists one day. And I believe it will become crystal clear when Jesus explains.  And why go to hell when Jesus offers eternal life? Pretty stupid to reject such an offer.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Fish153 Have you ever been a Muslim?  Have you ever prayed to Quan Am?

[Hierophant]

9 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Hierophant--

I really have questioned some of things I believe. Hell has been a hard pill to swallow. But Jesus taught more about hell than any other person in the Bible.

 

I rebelled against the teaching until I truly considered it. Some Christians teach annihilation. Everyone who doesn't believe will simply be extinguished. But then I thought of the most evil leaders-- the Nazis and others. Will Mabel Williams in Alabama and Hitler both be extinguished on the same day? Mabel didn't believe, but the worst thing she ever did was kick a dog once. Hitler orchestrated the deaths of millions of people. Will he simply be extinguished? No-- it couldn't be. The unbelieving will be judged by their works before the Great White Throne.

 

Surely there is a "punishment" that matches the works done.

So I concluded there must be a hell (the Lake of Fire). But how long will a person stay in that Lake? How long would Hitler be tormented(not tortured)? A thousand years? 10,000 years?

 

Then I thought "it's easy to believe that people go to Heaven FOREVER AND EVER. Why is it so hard to believe that people will go to hell forever and ever? We don't want to believe that-- "God must be cruel" we think.

 

But then we must also think how Heaven would be Hell for wicked people. Hell is where they WANT to be, so God is giving them what they want in the end isn't he? They want nothing to do with God-- so God is granting their wish.

 

But what about poor Mabel from Alabama? Well, it appears that hell has many levels-- some receive many "lashes", and some receive "few".

 

Do I understand hell? No. Do I believe in hell? Yes. It is part of Christian Doctrine. I d must accept that God will explain why it exists one day. And I believe it will become crystal clear when Jesus explains.  And why go to hell when Jesus offers eternal life? Pretty stupid to reject such an offer.

 

I wasn't really on this topic. I am asking you, how do you know you are not going to hell? What I mean by that, is how can you know you believe the right things, and are also doing the will of God as Jesus stated you need to do. How do you know, not guess, what standard God is holding you to?

[midniterider]

5 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Do I understand hell? No. Do I believe in hell? Yes. It is part of Christian Doctrine. I d must accept that God will explain why it exists one day. And I believe it will become crystal clear when Jesus explains.  And why go to hell when Jesus offers eternal life? Pretty stupid to reject such an offer.

 

I dont want to worship something that has Hell as part of its doctrine. 

[Fish153]

Hierophant---

"These things I write onto you who believe in the Son of God that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life" (1 John 5:13)

 

This verse convinces me and so does Romans 8 which teaches NOTHING can separate us from the love of Christ.

 

I also have the witness of the Spirit of God. He will not let me go. He will "allow" me to stray, but he will not allow me to FALL AWAY. I have stumbled many times-- and I have even fought against God-- like a little kid you see in the store struggling in tears in the arms of it's mother, trying to get away.

 

But the Lord always brings me back. He CHASTENS those that are really His. "If you be without chastening then you are bastards and not sons" says Hebrews. The worst judgment God can place on someone is to let them go their own way.

 

God always draws me back because He promised "I will never leave you nor Forsake you". I am definitely one of His sheep.

 

I really know of nothing else to share to prove I am SAVED. I just know it. What can I say? A little kid doesn't have to prove his Mom loves him-- the fact she seeks him out, and picks him up, and hugs him is proof enough to anyone.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Fish153 Have you ever been a Muslim?  Have you ever prayed to Quan Am?

[◊ Krowb ◊]

11 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Hierophant---

"These things I write onto you who believe in the Son of God that you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life" (1 John 5:13)

 

This verse convinces me and so does Romans 8 which teaches NOTHING can separate us from the love of Christ.

 

I also have the witness of the Spirit of God. He will not let me go. He will "allow" me to stray, but he will not allow me to FALL AWAY. I have stumbled many times-- and I have even fought against God-- like a little kid you see in the store struggling in tears in the arms of it's mother, trying to get away.

 

But the Lord always brings me back. He CHASTENS those that are really His. "If you be without chastening then you are bastards and not sons" says Hebrews. The worst judgment God can place on someone is to let them go their own way.

 

God always draws me back because He promised "I will never leave you nor Forsake you". I am definitely one of His sheep.

 

I really know of nothing else to share to prove I am SAVED. I just know it. What can I say? A little kid doesn't have to prove his Mom loves him-- the fact she seeks him out, and picks him up, and hugs him is proof enough to anyone.

 

 

After this passage and all the electricity spilled on these 17 pages prior, are you finally ready to admit that your belief is grounded in your personal experience?

 

In summary:

1. We should adopt your beliefs about god because your personal experience with god is true.
2. We should reject the beliefs of others about god because their personal experiences are false.

The difficulty of personal experience is that it is well . . . personal to you.  All we have is hearsay.  And contradictory hearsay at that! 

 

[midniterider]

@Fish153 Have you ever been a Muslim?  Have you ever prayed to Quan Am?

[◊ Krowb ◊]

It would be nice if God, or Yahweh, or Allah, or Brahma would simply provide each of his creations the same personal revelation/experience he provided you.  You cannot fall away because you were chosen by god.  That must be a nice feeling.  One none of us can share in.

 

I'm sure some other devout believers would agree with your feelings, but would disagree on the particular deity.