ISRAEL PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

[Fish153]

midnite--

Yes-- people do wind up in the Lake of Fire. But it wasn't created for men. "God wants that no man should perish, but that all would come to repentance". But God has given men free will.

In 2 Thessalonians it says that men perish because they "received not" the love of the truth that they might be saved. NO ONE needs to go to the Lake of Fire. That is a CHOICE.

 

God has provided a way for all men to be saved if they choose to ACCEPT it. You will only wind up in the Lake of Fire if you REJECT the way to avoid it, and instead go to Heaven. It was never God's intent to condemn man. Jesus says he came into the world not to condemn but to save.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Yes.  The milk jug analogy is absurd.  It is meant to be absurd; because it is intended to highlight the absurdity of grown-ass adults talking to their imaginary friends about real world problems.  To you, the Buddhist praying to Quan Am is absurd; to the Muslim, you praying to jesus is absurd.  The truth is that you are no more or less absurd than the Buddhist, who is no more or less absurd than the Muslim.  

[Fish153]

sdelsoray--

I mean this seriously. I am not "avoiding" questions or discussions. There are just so many posts that I can't really keep up with them. I saw the one about Noah's Ark and was finally able to answer.

 

There are a few posts that I read and feel it's not really worth the effort-- such as someone saying the Muslim faith is just as valid as the Christian faith. I will give a short response, but don't want to waste time arguing that point.

 

But I am not afraid of discussions. I am not really a Christian Apologist so I am not really very good at arguing points of contention, but I do my best.

 

I do want to say that I truly have never been here before, and just recently joined. The last deconversion place I visited was a blog about 5 years ago. So I haven't been "studying you" as someone asserted. I am not completely new to deconversion discussions though-- I find them to be very interesting!

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

9 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

sdelsoray---

Me "sensitive"? LOL. I'm not the one who curses at people at the drop of a hat. The people on this board are FAR MORE "sensitive" than me. Geez-- say that you think they never really believed and you'd think their house just burned down! That is a good one!! Keep the jokes coming!

 

I've already explained in detail why it's offensive. Some individuals in this forum have severe religious trauma from their experiences with Christianity. 

 

Again put yourself in someone else's shoes. Someone who truly believed and devoted their life to Jesus does not have an easy deconversion. It's painful and extremely tragic. Heartbreaking even. People have committed suicide that have come to the conclusion we have. There are also members here that have suffered physical or sexual abuse at the hands of church leaders. You dismissing their religious experiences as not being a true believer is offensive. Whether your scripture says that or not, for you to come in here boasting we never truly believed can be triggering. I know a few members here that didn't deconvert until very late in life. Which means much of their life was devoted to your God. And now your telling them. Yeah.... the 60 years that you worshipped God, prayed to God, felt a relationship with Jesus, felowshiped with his children..... yeah... you weren't really a Christian. 

 

I dont understand how you can't see why that is offensive. I had way more empathy than you when I was a Christian. Your not being a very good example. Just saying. The Jesus I believed in would have been more tactful than you have been. If you had truly been tried just like we have. You would be more sympathetic to our plight. But no. Your arrogance shows that you have not had to question your faith as far as we had to question it. You started to question and the just chalked it up to I just don't know. We had to know. And when we found the answers. We found the Bible to be the problem. Not what we were seeing. 

 

This community is here to help deconverting individuals through the process and give them a group of people to talk to who have been through many of the same experiences. When your whole life revolves around a belief system and that belief system is suddenly taken away. It can ve a very lonely trying time for anyone. 

[Fish153]

Red---

Thanks. One thing the guy never made clear was the type of milk in the jug. I find that praying to chocolate milk filled jugs has better results.

[alreadyGone]

 

@Fish153

 

A valid response would be:

"I do not know the answer, nor to my knowledge does any other living human know".

 

..unless of course you have or can discover a better answer.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Red---

Thanks. One thing the guy never made clear was the type of milk in the jug. I find that praying to chocolate milk filled jugs has better results.

So the question, @Fish153, is: why do you think the Buddhist and the Muslim are absurd but you are not?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

36 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

LOL darkbishop--

There is a HUGE difference between saying you ate pancakes this morning and saying you vacationed on Mars. Your arguments have no merit.

Your a real deuce bag. The point was. Me telling you that I was once a true believer shouldn't be equated to me saying I went to Mars. That is a huge difference as well. Your not comparing apples to apples. YOUR argument has no merit. 

[nontheistpilgrim]

33 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

snip

 

God has provided a way for all men to be saved if they choose to ACCEPT it. You will only wind up in the Lake of Fire if you REJECT the way to avoid it, and instead go to Heaven. It was never God's intent to condemn man. Jesus says he came into the world not to condemn but to save.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)

I may have said this upthread.

Missionaries went to great lengths (and still do) to preach the gospel to people who have never heard. If the hearers reject the message they go to hell. But if they had never heard they would go to heaven. Thus missionaries send people to hell.

What sort of christianity (or humanity) is that? Not what I want to be associated with.

 

[Astreja]

38 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

midnite--

Yes-- people do wind up in the Lake of Fire. But it wasn't created for men. "God wants that no man should perish, but that all would come to repentance". But God has given men free will.

In 2 Thessalonians it says that men perish because they "received not" the love of the truth that they might be saved. NO ONE needs to go to the Lake of Fire. That is a CHOICE.

 

No, it is absolutely not a choice.  If such a place actually exists, in order for there to be true free will and not a complete mockery of it, everyone must have the option of not going there without accepting the long-weekend human sacrifice dog-and-pony show of Schrödinger's dead/not-dead Jesus.

 

My choice is for hell to simply not exist for any sentient being anywhere in space and time.  If even one individual is imprisoned in hell for eternity, your god automatically becomes infinitely evil for failing to rescue that individual.

 

Why do you worship an infinitely evil god, Fish?

 

I refer you to an essay I wrote on the main site eleven years ago:  Hell is an Unattended Stove?

[Astreja]

38 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Yes.  The milk jug analogy is absurd.  It is meant to be absurd; because it is intended to highlight the absurdity of grown-ass adults talking to their imaginary friends about real world problems.  To you, the Buddhist praying to Quan Am is absurd; to the Muslim, you praying to jesus is absurd.  The truth is that you are no more or less absurd than the Buddhist, who is no more or less absurd than the Muslim.  

 

Quan Am is a class act - unconditional compassion, as opposed to ChristInsanity's conditional forgiveness.

[Hierophant]

59 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Hierophant--

You really want God to work on YOUR terms don't you? I can't take up your "challenge" because you are expecting everything to be "proven" before you accept it. But you see God works the opposite way. YOU say "if I see it I will believe it". JESUS says "Did I not say that if you believe you would see the glory of God?"  He says if you BELIEVE you will SEE. You can't have it YOUR way Hierophant. God does as He pleases. WE are the ones who must submit-- He doesn't submit to US.

 

Lame. So your expectation is that people should believe, "just because." Your standard of belief is exactly why 10,000 different religions exist in the world. Gullibility and fear of mortality. 

[Astreja]

1 hour ago, Fish153 said:

sdelsoray---

Me "sensitive"? LOL. I'm not the one who curses at people at the drop of a hat. The people on this board are FAR MORE "sensitive" than me. Geez-- say that you think they never really believed and you'd think their house just burned down! That is a good one!! Keep the jokes coming!

 

I really did get to you, didn't I, Fish?  For me it was a throwaway line, but you can't stop mentioning it.  

[alreadyGone]

 

I suspect @Fish153, that my question is so uncomfortable for you that you hope to see me give up... or die today.

 

I may die today, but if not I will continue to pose the question until you have researched and located a plausible answer, or you are willing to admit the truth, that you've never considered it and you have no idea.

 

What else might you possibly have accepted as fact only on the basis of what you wish to be true?

 

Easy to deceive yourself isn't it?

We've all been there.

 

 

[alreadyGone]

@Fish153,

 

If you cannot establish the provenance of the book of Genesis, then the remainder of the Bible is only a book of strange stories.

 

The book of Genesis could be said to be three parts:

-The story of the creation

-The story which chronicles the advent of original sin in the garden

-The story of Noah's ark

 

You know of course that the third, the story of Noah's ark is widely and commonly accepted by almost every devout Christian believer as meaning that each and every species of land animal on earth was preserved from the flood on the ark.

You know that little children are very commonly taught this as fact in Sunday-school. When I was that age it was taught in public elementary-schools.

 

Any yet you know this cannot be true-

The three-toed sloth didn't disembark from the boat when the flood subsided and swim back to South America from the middle-East.

 

So how much more of Genesis is accepted without question as fact by 99% of Christian believers?

What about that magical talking snake?

 

 

 

 

[Fish153]

DarkBishop--

 

Thank you for the post. I do understand what you are saying about trauma. I was involved with a group a long time back which was severely legalistic and "cultish".

 

The leadership took advantage of their position and I suffered as a result. It took years to recover, and my faith was shaken to the core. I backslid for quite some time.

 

There was also the fear I had of having committed the "unpardonable sin". This was excruciating. I could not sleep-- my days were spent in deep fear. I would not wish this on everyone. It was a TEST OF FAITH for sure. John Bunyan speaks of going through the same test as a young Christian (I am no John Bunyan-- I just happened to go through one of the same tests that he did). This fear lasted for (10) years. But I made it through. My faith was proved to be real-- I had not turned back despite all "evidence" to the contrary. I had been through the "shadow of death" and not thrown in the towel. God held on to me through it.

 

I ask you once again to read John 6. Again, please note that these people were "disciples". Jesus said something they absolutely could not swallow or understand. They became "offended" and turned back FOR GOOD. Now, please note DarkBishop, after this happens it says "Jesus KNEW who BELIEVED NOT, and who would betray him". It is clearly saying that these "disciples" were NOT real believers. They THOUGHT they were--- but their ACTIONS proved they were not. 

 

When I state that deconverts were never real believers it is based on Scripture-- not my personal opinion. When you ask me to show compassion to deconverts it's like asking me to feel sorry for Judas. Judas went through extreme emotional torment for making the decision he made. But he was a traitor to MY MASTER.

 

Do you expect me to feel sorry for him? Judas was NEVER a real believer. Jesus said "Have I not chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil?"  John says Judas was a THIEF-- this was his very character. He followed Jesus but he had never had a TRUE change of heart.

 

As offended as you and others may become, you have turned back from following My Lord. Hebrews 10:26-29 speaks of the fate awaiting those who have "trampled under foot the Son of God, and who treat His blood as worthless".

 

Despite your "suffering" you are like a soldier going A W.O.L. from the battle. "But you just don't understand what I was going through!! Put yourself in my shoes!! I have been enduring miserable pain and doubt! How dare you say I was never a committed soldier! I've suffered more than YOU WILL ever know!!"

 

"But you turned back from the vow you took. You are betraying your leaders and your comrades! You know the battle is real, but you are more concerned about yourself than your country. Instead of holding true you have become a traitor. How can I feel sorry for you?"

 

When I read about Benedict Arnold am I supposed to take his "feelings" into account and treat him with deep compassion? I am trying to convey to you how I see what a deconvert has done and why.

 

My conclusion: a deconvert THOUGHT they were a Christian, but they never truly were. They were in church, but just like the A.W.O L. soldier, their heart was never really there. They HAD to turn back. Many deconverts speak of their pull towards unbelief as something they HAD to do. I agree.

 

My basis for believing this: John 6 among many other passages-- not my own opinion. Cuss all you want. My compassion is towards the unsaved, notvto those who have turned back from the Holy Calling.

[Fish153]

Astreja--

Yes it did get to me. "F the Holy Spirit" is NOT a throw away line. Especially when posted as quickly as you did for a couple of posts I made.

It shows a HUGE bitterness of heart, and hatred of Christians. It shows a heart that is deeply hardened. Jesus said there is a possibility of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit and you don't even care. You say it in such a way as to spit at God.

 

Please remember Jesus forgave everyone. One poster says I should be compassionate to those on the board because of all they have been through. BUT Jesus also WARNED THE PHARISEES that there IS a line one can cross where He will be compassionate no more. When you wilfully curse the Holy Spirit you should greatly fear that you are ABLE to do that. It is a sign of a greatly hardened heart. I pray to God you would repent because this is very serious.

[Hierophant]

13 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

DarkBishop--

 

Thank you for the post. I do understand what you are saying about trauma. I was involved with a group a long time back which was severely legalistic and "cultish".

 

The leadership took advantage of their position and I suffered as a result. It took years to recover, and my faith was shaken to the core. I backslid for quite some time.

 

There was also the fear I had of having committed the "unpardonable sin". This was excruciating. I could not sleep-- my days were spent in deep fear. I would not wish this on everyone. It was a TEST OF FAITH for sure. John Bunyan speaks of going through the same test as a young Christian (I am no John Bunyan-- I just happened to go through one of the same tests that he did). This fear lasted for (10) years. But I made it through. My faith was proved to be real-- I had not turned back despite all "evidence" to the contrary. I had been through the "shadow of death" and not thrown in the towel. God held on to me through it.

 

I ask you once again to read John 6. Again, please note that these people were "disciples". Jesus said something they absolutely could not swallow or understand. They became "offended" and turned back FOR GOOD. Now, please note DarkBishop, after this happens it says "Jesus KNEW who BELIEVED NOT, and who would betray him". It is clearly saying that these "disciples" were NOT real believers. They THOUGHT they were--- but their ACTIONS proved they were not. 

 

When I state that deconverts were never real believers it is based on Scripture-- not my personal opinion. When you ask me to show compassion to deconverts it's like asking me to feel sorry for Judas. Judas went through extreme emotional torment for making the decision he made. But he was a traitor to MY MASTER.

 

Do you expect me to feel sorry for him? Judas was NEVER a real believer. Jesus said "Have I not chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil?"  John says Judas was a THIEF-- this was his very character. He followed Jesus but he had never had a TRUE change of heart.

 

As offended as you and others may become, you have turned back from following My Lord. Hebrews 10:26-29 speaks of the fate awaiting those who have "trampled under foot the Son of God, and who treat His blood as worthless".

 

Despite your "suffering" you are like a soldier going A W.O.L. from the battle. "But you just don't understand what I was going through!! Put yourself in my shoes!! I have been enduring miserable pain and doubt! How dare you say I was never a committed soldier! I've suffered more than YOU WILL ever know!!"

 

"But you turned back from the vow you took. You are betraying your leaders and your comrades! You know the battle is real, but you are more concerned about yourself than your country. Instead of holding true you have become a traitor. How can I feel sorry for you?"

 

When I read about Benedict Arnold am I supposed to take his "feelings" into account and treat him with deep compassion? I am trying to convey to you how I see what a deconvert has done and why.

 

My conclusion: a deconvert THOUGHT they were a Christian, but they never truly were. They were in church, but just like the A.W.O L. soldier, their heart was never really there. They HAD to turn back. Many deconverts speak of their pull towards unbelief as something they HAD to do. I agree.

 

My basis for believing this: John 6 among many other passages-- not my own opinion. Cuss all you want. My compassion is towards the unsaved, notvto those who have turned back from the Holy Calling.

 

Your belief the Bible is the Word of a divine being is why you are so brainwashed. You are blind to the internal and external inconsistencies in the Bible. 

 

There is so much about the Bible you are completely ignorant of, and I would be wasting my time showing you because you are arrogant and think you have all already discovered all the knowledge you need.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, Fish153 said:

midnite--

Yes-- people do wind up in the Lake of Fire. But it wasn't created for men. "God wants that no man should perish, but that all would come to repentance". But God has given men free will.

In 2 Thessalonians it says that men perish because they "received not" the love of the truth that they might be saved. NO ONE needs to go to the Lake of Fire. That is a CHOICE.

 

God has provided a way for all men to be saved if they choose to ACCEPT it. You will only wind up in the Lake of Fire if you REJECT the way to avoid it, and instead go to Heaven. It was never God's intent to condemn man. Jesus says he came into the world not to condemn but to save.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16)

 

God didnt know that humans would end up there when he created Hell? Apparently he's not all-knowing then. 

 

Maybe instead of sending people to hell he could just be like a human and not take offense to people not loving him.  Stop being a baby. Your God needs some social skills. Stop being a teenager. Have some compassion and empathy. He's very legalistic with his Hell nonsense. And regardless of Hell being created for humans or created for anyone, the concept of eternal agony is just wrong. Someone who LOVED the world would not create an eternal torture place. He'd just destroy people he didnt like. 

 

For God so loved the world, Jesus came with a sword...to pit father against son, mother against daughter , to turn someone's friends into enemies....

 

 

[Fish153]

Alreadygone--

What question are you referring to? You are not the only one posting here. I'm not refusing to answer any questions. I thought I had answered you already. You mean Noah's Ark? I gave my answer on that. It was a bit vague but I tried the best I could.

 

I'm not afraid of anyone's questions. I may not be able to answer them the way you WANT me to--- but I'm not avoiding anyone-- there's just a lot of people posting.

 

Remember, I've been thrown to the Lion's here and have no Daniel to help me.

[alreadyGone]

Just now, Fish153 said:

Alreadygone--

What question are you referring to? You are not the only one posting here. I'm not refusing to answer any questions. I though I had answered you already. You mean Noah's Ark. I gave my answer on that. It was a bit vague but I tried the best I could.

 

I'm not afraid of anyone's questions. I may not be able to answer them the way you WANT me to--- but I'm not avoiding anyone-- there's just a lot of you.

 

I've asked the same question 4 or 5 times since yesterday morning:

 

In which written language did Moses record the chronicle of events in the book of Genesis as related to him by God?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

@Fish153, why are the Buddhist and the Muslim absurd for talking to their imaginary friends, but you are not equally absurd for talking to yours?

[nontheistpilgrim]

Was I a true Christian?

I gave my heart to Jesus when I was quite young but understood what I was doing. I was baptised by total immersion; I heard God call me, and my fiancee did too, to work for him overseas; I did minister overseas.

I was ordained as a Christian minister - after my calling by god was tested by senior Christian ministers. Were these people wrong? Were they not true Christians? Some people became Christians under my ministry: were they true Christians?

(For your information I came to understand that there is no god, no holy spirit, no heaven nor hell.)

Was I a true Christian in your eyes? (And don't wriggle by saying you cannot judge me or by telling me what you think the bible says: I want your view.)

[Astreja]

13 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Astreja--

Yes it did get to me. "F the Holy Spirit" is NOT a throw away line. Especially when posted as quickly as you did for a couple of posts I made.

It shows a HUGE bitterness of heart, and hatred of Christians. It shows a heart that is deeply hardened. Jesus said there is a possibility of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit and you don't even care. You say it in such a way as to spit at God.

 

Please remember Jesus forgave everyone. One poster says I should be compassionate to those on the board because of all they have been through. BUT Jesus also WARNED THE PHARISEES that there IS a line one can cross where He will be compassionate no more. When you wilfully curse the Holy Spirit you should greatly fear that you are ABLE to do that. It is a sign of a greatly hardened heart. I pray to God you would repent because this is very serious.

 

You couldn't be more wrong about me if you tried, Fish.  I don't hate Christians.  I do, however, hate bullies, and to try to force someone to profess faith on pain of eternal punishment is an act of emotional and psychological abuse.  If I could, I'd take a Clue-By-Four™ to every man and woman alive who thinks it's a good idea to frighten children with tales of hell.  That is what I consider an "unforgivable sin," not saying rude things about imaginary spooks.

 

I reject salvation unconditionally.  No one, and I do  mean no one, dies in my place for any reason whatsoever.  I pay my own debts, and if that's not good enough for your god then your god isn't good enough for me.

[Fish153]

midnite--

Oh yes, God knows some will "choose" to go to the Lake of Fire despite his merciful call to them. But he did not create the Lake of Fire for man.

 

You have to consider what is at stake midnite. We are finite-- we know SO LITTLE. We THINK we have it all figured out-- but we don't. Our knowledge is about as great as how far we can see into space with the naked eye. We see a minute area of space. It continues in all directions for trillions and trillions of miles. Our knowledge is NOTHING.

 

Now, consider WHYJesus would need to die on a cross for our sins. There must be something WE DO NOT KNOW that is SO DEEPLY SERIOUS that Jesus had to come, assume human form, and die on a cross or we would BE LOST. I mean we would TRULY BE LOST IN A VERY REAL WAY. 

 

And by doing so Jesus opened a way for us to be saved simply by ACCEPTING what He has done for us. Deconverts and atheists are REJECTING AN INVITATION TO SALVATION. I am using CAPS only for emphasis.

 

God came a LONG WAY, and went through immense suffering to provide the way back to God. And you are rejecting the invitation. I say this seriously: if you wind up in the Lake of Fire YOU will be responsible for it. You have free will. God has provided the door-- you just need to go through it. Yet you accuse God of being evil.

 

You don't KNOW EVERYTHING. God is infinite and understands far morevthan we eever can. We need to humble ourselves and accept HIS WAY. Don't accuse God when you barely know anything about eternity. You know nothing about the extent of the Universe-- how can you really know anything about God except for what he tells us about Himself in the Word of God. God doesn't expect us to understand everything--He just expects us to believe Him and accept his way of salvation.

.