Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted December 22, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 If you ask me, this all seems very fishy... Sorry, I had to 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 @Fish153, All this is your emotional belief. You posit what God will do and what he will not.. The Bible states clearly that you can neither know or comprehend his mind. I understand, and others here understand what you are describing about your own experience and the emotional beliefs it elicits. We've been there. Who, precisely, are these people you refer to as "the Jews" who are one part of the equation you claim as proof of the existence of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 Just now, LogicalFallacy said: ....Sorry, I had to No, you didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 34 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Red--- If I used the word "coincidence" I apologize. I mean "coincidence" in the minds of unbelievers. It is EVIDENCE without a doubt to the believing. 6 millions Jews dying at the hands of Hitler is evidence that God didnt help them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 I left the pentecostal cult nearly 34 years ago. And I am still relishing my freedom. I wasn't free in the cult. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 22, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 13 minutes ago, LogicalFallacy said: If you ask me, this all seems very fishy... Sorry, I had to Oh dear cod! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 22, 2021 Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 What was that? I'm hard of herring. I'm up on my perch playing my bass. I'm inspired from my head to my soles. Sorry about that. I did it for the halibut. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 You know @Fish153, you are teaching me insights into the Christian belief I never had when I was a believer. The continual assertions of such as "I don't know why God would do that, I'm not God", followed by assertions of "God does this..." and "God doesn't/won't do that".. It's all very illuminating. Again, most of us have been there. Please try to consider that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 18 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Alreadygone-- Exactly. Many become "Christians" (like the seed thrown on stony ground). They leap for joy at the message, and "for a time believe". They THINK they are in love-- They believe they are TRUE disciples. But shortly thereafter they realize they really don't believe-- or their belief is "eroding". They really "want out" but feel they can't leave. Guilt may keep them, or family, or whatever. But they REALLY wish they weren't "Christians" at all. They secretly want OUT but just don't know how to do it. They are "stony ground hearers", not "good ground". Soon they begin to turn away. They have an internal fight because their consciences bother them SO badly. Full stop at this point. If I'm a stony ground hearer that aint my fault. That's God's fault. God should do a better job creating people. Now whip up some mental gymnastics about how it's all my fault and not God's. If I'm a stony ground hearer then you are wasting your breath here. Some deconverts have been so well programmed in the past by Christianity that they fear the imaginary hell you mention. They feel guilty about not worshiping Jesus. It is difficult to exit a toxic totalitarian cult like Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 22, 2021 Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 Alreadygone--- When I say "God does that, etc" it's in Scripture. Such as testing us among many other things. But The Bible doesn't really tell us why(for example) God allows evil to exist. So I have to say "I don't know". So yes, I know many things God does because he tells us so-- but there are also many things he doesn't explain, and indeed doesn't have to-- because He's God. So I have to say "I don't know". I will one day though-- God says He will one day explain all things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator Hierophant Posted December 22, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 9 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Alreadygone--- When I say "God does that, etc" it's in Scripture. Such as testing us among many other things. But The Bible doesn't really tell us why(for example) God allows evil to exist. So I have to say "I don't know". So yes, I know many things God does because he tells us so-- but there are also many things he doesn't explain, and indeed doesn't have to-- because He's God. So I have to say "I don't know". I will one day though-- God says He will one day explain all things. So your faith is based on the same thing as every other person in other religions. "I don't know, but I believe it anyway." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Fish153 said: Red--- If I used the word "coincidence" I apologize. I mean "coincidence" in the minds of unbelievers. It is EVIDENCE without a doubt to the believing. Thank you for confirming my point, Fish. The bridge of 'evidence' between the two historical events is constructed only in the minds of believers, by faith. That bridge doesn't exist anywhere else. There is nothing outside of your mind that you can show anyone else to link these two events. So far you haven't clearly and unequivocally admitted that this is so, but your words above tell another story. You say to me, 'If you REFUSE to accept this "evidence" what can I do?' But you've given me nothing to refuse except your act of faith. Your faith that these two events are linked is neither evidence nor proof that they are. So, the only thing I am refusing to do Fish, is to share in your act of faith. That's all. You've given me nothing else to reject. Now, please answer this question. Does the evidence that links these two events lie anywhere else but inside the minds of believers? Thank you. Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator LogicalFallacy Posted December 22, 2021 Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 40 minutes ago, alreadyGone said: No, you didn't. God made me do it, and you can't prove he didn't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: Struck me, too. In ten pages we've gone from "PROOF" to "coincidence." How sad. True. Proof ---> Evidence ---> Coincidence But according to Fish these coincidences are evidence in the minds of true believers. I wonder if he will admit that coincidences are converted into evidence, by faith? Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 22, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 13 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said: I wonder if he will admit that coincidences are converted into evidence, by faith? Dismissing 11 pages worth of evidence to the contrary, I have faith that he will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Krowb ◊ Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 Uhoh @Fish153, a challenger appears. Muslims take the establishment of Israel and the Dead Sea Scrolls as proof of Islam. Quote Establishment of Israel And after him We said to the Children of Israel, ‘Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people.” (17:105) Creation of Israel and gathering of Sephardic, Ashkenazi and the Jews of many other different races in Israel proves the authenticity of this prophecy and hence Quran. https://www.alislam.org/articles/fulfilled-prophecies-of-holy-quran/ Quote The Dead Sea Scrolls make mention of many more quite amazing and illuminating prophesies and parallels with the teachings of the Qur'an and Islam. There is so much more that could be said about the Dead Sea Scrolls and their confirmation of the Qur'an and the mission of Muhammad , however, that will have to be left to a future article where, God willing, many more detailed examples of this sort shall be analyzed in detail. https://www.islamawareness.net/DeadSeaScrolls/bible_scrolls_dead_sea.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Krowb ◊ Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 @walterpthefirst has the right of your position. You believe on faith, and faith is something inherently internal to you. Both you and the Muslims can point to the same signs as "proof" or "evidence" of your/their preferred book being the Truth. Each will decry the other false, and when pressed on why, each of you will return to your preferred holy book and begin spouting verses at each other. What in measurable reality (outside the books) bends the needle between the two? Or perhaps the truth is one of inummerable gods dead, alive, or yet to be. Perhaps even no god at all? That's right, I almost forgot, you do not allow yourself to look beyond "the Good Book" and thus are unable to answer. On 12/21/2021 at 4:28 PM, Fish153 said: A true believer who has strayed reads those verses and is filled with fear. "I don't want to become an spostate!" they cry. Because they TRULY BELIEVE GOD'S WORD they stop dead in their tracks. Many feel great condemnation. But you see, that is why God out the verses there. To hold True Believers in the fold. They CANNOT go BEYOND the verses BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 22, 2021 Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 Krowb-- That means NOTHING. I can find scholars that say the DEAD SEA SCROLLS have nothing to do with the Quran and Muhammad. How could they? The scrolls were written 70 A.D. or BEFORE (A confirmed fact). Muhammad didn't even exist before 600 A.D. That scholar is extremely ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 Fish, Please answer this question. Does the evidence that links these two events lie anywhere else but inside the minds of believers? Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Krowb-- I take that back. Muhammad did "exist" before 600 A.D.-- he was born in 570 A.D.---- but still HUNDREDS OF YEARS after the dead sea scrolls were written. I could care less if Muslims claim the scrolls-- I'd be willing to bet UFO cults claim the DEAD SEA Scrolls as pertinent to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 Fish, It's getting late here so I'm going to bed now. Tomorrow, when I log on again, I hope that you will have answered my question. Does the evidence that links these two events lie anywhere else but inside the minds of believers? Thank you, Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Krowb-- I don't care WHAT the Muslims claim. The Quran was written around 600 A.D. The Bible was written hundreds of years earlier (the New Testament), and a couple of thousand of years earlier (The Old Testament). They base MUCH of their belief on what the BIBLE teaches-- as far as the Law, Abraham, etc. But to them Jesus was just a man. Muhammad is the ultimate source. I really don't care what they believe. The BIBLE is a far more reliable book than the Koran. The Bible is the Word of God. The Koran is the Word of Muhammad-- a man from 600 A.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator Hierophant Posted December 23, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Krowb-- I don't care WHAT the Muslims claim. The Quran was written around 600 A.D. The Bible was written hundreds of years earlier (the New Testament), and a couple of thousand of years earlier (The Old Testament). They base MUCH of their belief on what the BIBLE teaches-- as far as the Law, Abraham, etc. But to them Jesus was just a man. Muhammad is the ultimate source. I really don't care what they believe. The BIBLE is a far more reliable book than the Koran. The Bible is the Word of God. The Koran is the Word of Muhammad-- a man from 600 A.D. Here we go again -- why do you believe the Bible is the Word of God? Hindu scriptures precede the Bible by like 5000 years, do you think those are true? Just face it, you believe because you believe. Some person told you it was true and you were off to the races. Cool story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Walter--- No. Not just in the minds of believers. The people of Israel believe it whole-heartedly (even Jewish atheists cannot ignore the "odds" that this could happen). I think many people find this "coincidence"(the WORD the doubtful would use) a little hard to just "write off". It is a bit too strange to just ignore. It would be like walking into a new house for the first time, and then receiving the deed to the house in the mail the next day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Krowb ◊ Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 I am glad to see we've moved to discussing the reliability of the bible. Several members have already requested you provide evidence for the biblical claims of: The two creation stories of Genesis The Exodus The Great Flood The resurrected saints in Matthew Those would be a good place to start, but of course, you are free to submit any evidence you find compelling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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