Fish153 Posted December 22, 2021 Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 Red-- It says Jesus knew who did NOT believe in Him. It doesn't say he CAUSED them not to believe, or to believe. It just says he knew their hearts. So it doesn't blow any free will argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 3 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Redneck--- Come on. "You know you were being offensive towards us". Well, of course. The "points" I am making are offensive to you. But I have not said "Red, you are a motherf###r!" There is a big difference there. If you don't like what I'm saying of course you are going to be offended. I can be offended without resorting to calling all of you a$$holes or motherf$#$rs. Geez. Talking about points Fish, here's a point of order for you. You arrived here with proof, back peddled from there to evidence and now I'm waiting for you to admit that you don't have any proofs or evidence to support your claims at all. All you have is faith, isn't that right? Walter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Fish153 said: One person on this board, after just a couple of my posts said: "F you!!! And F the Holy Spirit!!" Doesn't this kind of show you that as "intuitive and intelligent" as many deconverts pretend to be, they are really emotion filled, easily disturbed individuals? I say this as I have experienced this same thing on many boards. "Don't you dare say I was never a real Christian you Mother-F%%%r!!" Why should that be such a trigger? If you think you were once a real Christian, good for you. Scripture shows differently, not just me. I say this because of what scripture shows in John 6. There are "disciples"( those who see themselves as true believers) who turn away for good. The same chapter says "Jesus knew who did NOT believe, and who would betray him". They THOUGHT they were believers until a trial of their faith caused them to turn back and never walk with Jesus again. Matt 7 speaks of those who THOUGHT they were believers also, crying to Jesus about miracles they did in his name, etc,but Jesus says "I NEVER knew you" (they were never true believers). So there is much Biblical basis to what I say when I claim you never really believed. Don't call me an a$$hole because I state something the Bible claims to be true. Well, you know, if people spend years worshiping Jesus and Jesus says "I never knew you, then he's a moron." That's on him, not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 22, 2021 Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 Midnite-- God SAYS in the Bible that he TESTS us. I KNOW my faith has been tested. There have been many times where I could have completely lost faith. Again, read John 6-- you will see that faith is tested there before they turn back to walk with Him no more. As I have mentioned. How do you test gold? You can put it in the fire. REAL GOLD will endure tests and PROVE it is real. Fool's gold will fail the test and prove it is not real. God does this. Peter says our faith WILL be tested to see if it is real. This isn't MY idea. Scripture states it. When I pray and receive no answer will I throw in the towel? Or will I continue to ask and submit to God's timing? That is only one test. There are many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator Hierophant Posted December 22, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 @Fish153 I think I have heard enough. You sound like every other evangelical out there. Your worldview is shaped by dogma and credulity, not facts. Moreover, you keep quoting the Bible - nobody here finds the Bible authoritative, and for good reason. It is a book written by fallible men, not any divine being. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 22, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 17 hours ago, Fish153 said: Redneck--- Come on. "You know you were being offensive towards us". Well, of course. The "points" I am making are offensive to you. But I have not said "Red, you are a motherf###r!" There is a big difference there. If you don't like what I'm saying of course you are going to be offended. I can be offended without resorting to calling all of you a$$holes or motherf$#$rs. Geez. I don't care what you believe. I care that you think you know something you don't. And you know it is offensive when somebody acts like they know something about you that isn't true. I'm not going to argue this point, son. Your beliefs are not the problem; your behavior is. Shore it up. I ain't asking. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 22, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 20 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Red-- It says Jesus knew who did NOT believe in Him. It doesn't say he CAUSED them not to believe, or to believe. It just says he knew their hearts. So it doesn't blow any free will argument. That's just your cognitive dissonance trying to reinterpret the scripture so you can hold on to your heretical free will beliefs. I hope you enjoy your freedom to choose when you're burning in hell for all eternity. Me and the rest of The Elect will be laughing at you from behind the pearly gates. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 22, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Matthew 7 Fish, this is you, buddy. This is where your free will is going to take you. You are not one of The Elect. That is why your faith was tested. god already knows you are not really one of his and he showed you that. No matter how hard you believe, no matter how much you pray, even if you get every one of us to repent and give our hearts to jesus, you are still not going to enter the kingdom of heaven. Because god has predestined you for eternal hellfire and damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Fish153 said: One person on this board, after just a couple of my posts said: "F you!!! And F the Holy Spirit!!" Doesn't this kind of show you that as "intuitive and intelligent" as many deconverts pretend to be, they are really emotion filled, easily disturbed individuals? I say this as I have experienced this same thing on many boards. You have discovered on many boards emotion filled, people easily disturbed by Christian apologists? That's because someone like you is there being offensive by telling them that they weren't a real Christian for 40 years when they absolutely were. Or someone like you is there telling them they are going to rot in hell forever. That's just as offensive as me telling you that your loved one is going to get raped or die from some disease. That is pure evil. People grow up in dysfunctional (Christian) households with fanatics like you making them afraid, shameful and guilty about everything. That's why they are disturbed. Because religious parents disturbed them. Religious parents messed up their heads with a messed up belief system. Meanwhile you're worried about the F word. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator Hierophant Posted December 22, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 1 minute ago, TheRedneckProfessor said: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Matthew 7 Fish, this is you, buddy. This is where your free will is going to take you. You are not one of The Elect. That is why your faith was tested. god already knows you are not really one of his and he showed you that. No matter how hard you believe, no matter how much you pray, even if you get every one of us to repent and give our hearts to jesus, you are still not going to enter the kingdom of heaven. Because god has predestined you for eternal hellfire and damnation. I think this passage makes a valid point. Every believer out there wants to think they are one of those chosen ones, but how can one know, and I mean know for sure? Those with introspection will have to ask themselves, "do I have a false belief? Do I believe what I am supposed to believe? Do I do the will of God?" How could one know? The Messianic Jews would say you need to keep the Sabbath based on the Sermon on the Mount. Any and all beliefs not based on evidence are nothing more than self-delusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 @Fish153, I'm probably the least emotionally-stable member here fwiw, but I personally feel no need to make this personal. I will not however allow you to gracefully avoid my simple, direct question: If Moses was the man God chose to write for him a record of actual events in the book of Genesis, and Moses lived around ~2500 - 3000 years ago, in what written language did Moses create this chronicle? Surely you can agree that this is important... the concept of "original sin" is presented in Genesis. And without that foundational concept of original sin, the Gospel is meaningless. You believe a tall tale that God appeared to Moses to pass this knowledge on to us. You believe this with no evidence, no reason to believe other than it makes you feel good to believe it. In which written language did Moses, a man who lived more than 2500 years ago record all that glorious detail of the creation, Adam and Eve, and Noah's Ark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 30 minutes ago, Fish153 said: ..When I pray and receive no answer will I throw in the towel? Or will I continue to ask and submit to God's timing? That is only one test. There are many. You continue to assert and imply that everyone here has rejected the Gospel because we're spoiled children who are angry because we didn't get the Christmas gift we expected. Guess again.. You are being vain and presumptuous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 22, 2021 Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 Hierophant-- What you state is entirely YOUR OPINION. YOU state the Bible was written by fallible men. This has never been proven. This is your opinion only and just as subjective as my belief. You can't PROVE God didn't write the Bible can you? How? Word of mouth? Scholars? I have scholars on the other side that would state the opposite. You've heard enough? You mean "this isn't what I THINK at all". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 Fish, Would you please be so good as to be honest with us and admit that you don't have any proofs and no evidence either. That, in the absence of any proof and any objective evidence, you believe what you believe by faith. Isn't that the truth? Please answer. Thank you. Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 1 hour ago, Fish153 said: But please, read John 6. Nah I don't need to read it. I've read it and lived it before. I'm good. You didn't answer my question tho. Were you able to fathom how detrimental deconverting would be to someone who felt they truly believed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 34 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Midnite-- God SAYS in the Bible that he TESTS us. I KNOW my faith has been tested. There have been many times where I could have completely lost faith. Again, read John 6-- you will see that faith is tested there before they turn back to walk with Him no more. As I have mentioned. How do you test gold? You can put it in the fire. REAL GOLD will endure tests and PROVE it is real. Fool's gold will fail the test and prove it is not real. God does this. Peter says our faith WILL be tested to see if it is real. This isn't MY idea. Scripture states it. When I pray and receive no answer will I throw in the towel? Or will I continue to ask and submit to God's timing? That is only one test. There are many. The bible is a book of fiction. Your God is fiction. Your faith wasn't tested. I dont really care what your book of fiction says. You are trying to push your imagination on us. And whether you say I was a real Christian or not, after reading the bible a bit better as an Ex-Christian, I surely dont WANT to be a Christian (ever again). It holds no value to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 4 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Hierophant-- What you state is entirely YOUR OPINION. YOU state the Bible was written by fallible men. This has never been proven. This is your opinion only and just as subjective as my belief. You can't PROVE God didn't write the Bible can you? How? Word of mouth? Scholars? I have scholars on the other side that would state the opposite. You've heard enough? You mean "this isn't what I THINK at all". Occam's Razor may apply here, Fish. We know there are men, human beings. We know also that in the early periods of human history myth and legend was the most prevalent and widespread form of human entertainment and means for communication of ideas and concepts. You believe that a God exists, and was editor-in-chief of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☆ DarkBishop ☆ Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 4 minutes ago, Fish153 said: This has never been proven Actually even you should know it was written by men. No one questions that. Your only argument is that God inspired the written word. But its even written in the Bible who supposedly wrote each book. For the most part. Supposedly under the guidance of God. Fallible men wrote the book. Now the question is, is the Bible itself fallible. To which I would have to say yes it is fallible. Endlessly fallible it seems. Tell me fish. Have you ever heard the story of the woman caught in adultery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 @Fish153, In consideration that you, being quite certain of your own knowledge of the Bible, could possibly have overlooked my question addressed to you, I'll ask again: In which written language did Moses, a man who lived more than 2500 years ago record all that glorious detail of the creation, Adam and Eve, and Noah's Ark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator Hierophant Posted December 22, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 7 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Hierophant-- What you state is entirely YOUR OPINION. YOU state the Bible was written by fallible men. This has never been proven. This is your opinion only and just as subjective as my belief. You can't PROVE God didn't write the Bible can you? How? Word of mouth? Scholars? I have scholars on the other side that would state the opposite. You've heard enough? You mean "this isn't what I THINK at all". If you think someone should believe something....the burden of proof on the one making the claim. When you say, "I cannot prove God did not write it," it is a Russel's Teapot argument. That would be like me stating that there is a teapot in orbit around Saturn, and stating that my belief in it is valid because you cannot disprove it. My "opinion" is based on the summary of evidence we have through history, and historical scholarship of the Bible. "Those on the other side," are influenced by their already held beliefs, and by their job security. Christian Biblical scholars must adhere to a statement of faith to be employed and paid by the academia they represent. By, "I have hear enough," it means that you do not have any evidence. As Dawkins stated, that is which asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence. My evidence the Bible is not true: Matthew 27. No way, no how, did a bunch of dead people get out of their graves, walk around Jerusalem, and nobody but the author of Matthew record it. Impossible. That was the first chink in the armor for me. After I started to study the origins of the Bible and its history, the house of cards fell apart. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 22, 2021 Author Share Posted December 22, 2021 Alreadygone--- I never said anything of the sort. I do not deny your journeys have been painful. My journey has been very painful too, but I still believe. I believed for many years I had committed the "unpardonable sin". That was excruciating. I would not wish that on anyone! But it was a test. Would I give up and turn back, or hold on with all of my heart? Deconverts seem to believe they have experienced some unique suffering that no one can know. Many Christians have gone through the same excruciating doubts, yet held on. Imagine the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST: A North Korean believer steps before Jesus. He was martyred for holding onto a belief he held so dear his life was given for it. He considered knowing Jesus to be the most valuable thing in life. He paid the ultimate price. A deconvert from the USA steps before Jesus. There was no chance he would be killed for his faith. At the most he might suffer insults. "You didn't answer my prayers so I concluded you didn't exist" he says. "And people in the church mistreated me. They were hypocrits!" So I turned back from you with good reason". Imagine the shame on that day. It's almost indescribable. John mentions "shrinking back" on the day of Jesus' return in shame. Many deconverts, given the highest privileges, will shrink back in great shame. While others held true, and endured for their faith, they turned back for trivial reasons (though they claim these trivial trials were GREAT SUFFERING). THE North Korean believer would call your great suffering NOTHING. He never turned back and was killed as a result. He will receive praise and a crown. What will the deconvert receive? I shudder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 There is zero reason to believe anything in the bible. Scholars cant show me God. You can't show me God. Nobody can show me God. He doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 Paging Fish153! Paging Fish153! Answer the question please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator Hierophant Posted December 22, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 22, 2021 3 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Alreadygone--- I never said anything of the sort. I do not deny your journeys have been painful. My journey has been very painful too, but I still believe. I believed for many years I had committed the "unpardonable sin". That was excruciating. I would not wish that on anyone! But it was a test. Would I give up and turn back, or hold on with all of my heart? Deconverts seem to believe they have experienced some unique suffering that no one can know. Many Christians have gone through the same excruciating doubts, yet held on. Imagine the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST: A North Korean believer steps before Jesus. He was martyred for holding onto a belief he held so dear his life was given for it. He considered knowing Jesus to be the most valuable thing in life. He paid the ultimate price. A deconvert from the USA steps before Jesus. There was no chance he would be killed for his faith. At the most he might suffer insults. "You didn't answer my prayers so I concluded you didn't exist" he says. "And people in the church mistreated me. They were hypocrits!" So I turned back from you with good reason". Imagine the shame on that day. It's almost indescribable. John mentions "shrinking back" on the day of Jesus' return in shame. Many deconverts, given the highest privileges, will shrink back in great shame. While others held true, and endured for their faith, they turned back for trivial reasons (though they claim these trivial trials were GREAT SUFFERING). THE North Korean believer would call your great suffering NOTHING. He never turned back and was killed as a result. He will receive praise and a crown. What will the deconvert receive. I shudder. I always thought it was weird God wants his children to die for him. Must really love us a whole bunch. I would totally want my son to die for something as petty as my honor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 22, 2021 Share Posted December 22, 2021 9 minutes ago, Fish153 said: ...Deconverts seem to believe they have experienced some unique suffering that no one can know. ... And still, you assume and assert that anyone who once believed and no longer does, lost that belief because of some trauma or suffering. Do you not understand that there can be other reasoning? And, In which written language did Moses record all the detail of creation, Adam and Eve in the garden, and Noah's ark? I'm certain that you know the answer, but you are unwilling for some reason to share that truth here.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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