ISRAEL PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

[alreadyGone]

So a man named Moses supposedly lived around ~2500 years ago.

Fair enough, there may have been any number of men named Moses who lived about that time.

 

He supposedly received a visit from God, who then told him all about the tale of the origins of the earth and the universe, of Adam and Eve and a magic talking serpent in the garden, and the adventures of Noah and his ark.

 

And Moses wrote those events down faithfully, recording every detail as God patiently related it to him...

 

In which (written) language did Moses write these things in such vivid detail Fish?

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

6 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Walter-

 

Well of course. The odds are staggering that those two things would take place as they did. These are natural odds I'm talking about here. But this causes my faith to strengthen. I can't "prove" God is behind it- but you can't "prove" He isn't behind it either. But because I can't "prove" it was God it still does not lessen the staggering odds for these two events happening so close together. The fact that I can't prove it was God does not remove the fact that it truly could be God also. I can look at the staggering odds, read the prophecies, and DECIDE what I want to believe.

 

If I decide NOT to believe because I can't prove God did it I am forgetting about the odds of it actually happening, and ignoring the odds so I can hold onto my unbelief aren't I? I am jumping through hoops to hold onto unbelief.

 

So, you DO make the supernatural connection between the two events by using faith and not by using evidence.

 

Thank you for confirming that.

 

 

Do you see how far you've come in this thread, Fish?

 

 

At first you claimed that you had proof.

 

Then, when you realized that you didn't, you changed that to evidence.

 

And now we can see that don't even have evidence.

 

You connect these historical events by FAITH and not by evidence.

 

Proof  ---->   Evidence   ---->  Faith

 

 

That's all you really have, isn't it, Fish?

 

You don't have any proofs to present to us, nor any evidence we can test, you only have your faith, right?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

16 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

I can't "prove" God is behind it- but you can't "prove" He isn't behind it either. But because I can't "prove" it was God it still does not lessen the staggering odds for these two events happening so close together. The fact that I can't prove it was God does not remove the fact that it truly could be God also. I can look at the staggering odds, read the prophecies, and DECIDE what I want to believe.

 

This statement is much ado about nothing. You can't prove or disprove it was the invisible immaterial pink unicorn either.

 

The point is not that we cannot "disprove" whatever assertion you come up with. That's not how the burden of proof works. It is up to you to provide reasonable evidence for your assertions - something you have utterly failed to do thus far.

 

Also you said you were leaving - I thought you were resolved to be here until the ban hammer dropped? Is the heat getting too much?

 

PS you never answered my early question - do you accept the theory of evolution?

[alreadyGone]

16 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

.... You look at everything from a purely human point of view.  ...

 

Of course I do.

If there is a God, in what point of view would He realistically expect me to look at 'everything' ? Did he give me, or any other human a gift to see or gain understanding by any other means than a human point of view?

 

You opened this discussion with an appeal to our human point of view, did you not?

 

You're again falling back on a reference of "spirit", when you have no rational basis on which to do so. You reference the way you feel and the way you felt 55 years ago.

 

And then you assign fault with me and others because we do not share your feelings.

 

Are your feelings not an artifact of your personal human point of view? You cannot in honesty claim them to be the result of a spiritual interaction if you cannot even define what you actually mean by spirit.

 

[Joshpantera]

12 hours ago, Fish153 said:

You see everything with a beginning and an end. But God CREATED time and space so there is no beginning or end with Him. He existed BEFORE (In the eternal sense) time was invented. TIME started at the Big Bang and burst forward as Space expanded (and continues to expand). God CAUSED this. He is not part of time and space. He rules over time and space and is not constrained by it.

 

We generally keep people like you up on display as a working example of christian to ex christian debate. So people can read through the content and see where positive claims like you're making in the above will necessarily end up. 

 

Try and sell me on the above claim. 

 

1) God - needs verification.

2) Created time and space - requires being twice verified. 

3) Existed before time was invented - requires triple verification. 

4) Time started at the big bang - requires quadruple verification. 

5) God caused this - requires 5 previous verifications to get to this. 

6) God is not part of time and space - requires 6 points of verification previous. 

 

You are "logic leaping" forward through a series of positive claims which are based on an unverified assumption at the core foundation. And that will necessarily lead to firm, objective conclusions about the series of claims you are making. 

 

We can take this away to a formal debate starting on the first premise. And it will be saved and pinned for all to read through. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 hours ago, Fish153 said:

At that moment the Bible became alive. It was no longer a story or history book. It was like a letter from a Father to His children. I have never been the same since.

 

I have wavered at times and doubted. But I cannot deny how CLEAN I felt, and the massive change that had taken place in me. A yearning to do good and to please Jesus.  I had been an infidel a half hour before, but now I was a Child of God.

 

Believe it or not fish. Everyone or atleast most of us had a similar salvation experience. The burden, the emotions, and then the feeling a heavy burden being lifted cleansing or souls of sin. A new child of God born of the Holy Spirit. 

 

I felt every bit of what you just described. But for me. An emotional experience can't brush away the truths that have come to light concerning the Bible. And if the foundation is sand. As you know. The house falls. Christianitys foundation is sand and most people are realizing it now. I like to think man kind is on the cusp of a cultural evolution when we can leave religious nonsense behind us and focus more on what's important. Our Earth and the survival of our species. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, Fish153 said:

But someone who only "claims" to believe and is ABLE to go beyond those verses-- past that fence-- has PROVEN they NEVER REALLY BELIEVED. Because if they believed they would fear.

 

When assholes say this. I like to say FUCK YOU, YOU PEICE OF SHIT!

 

I devoted my life for my faith. It was as real to me as it was to you or any other Christian. Up to this point I have been courteous, not sarcastic, and conversed with you cordially even though we have differing beliefs. 

 

I felt God's pull so strongly I answered the call to preach, and preached the word for over a decade. Don't tell me I was never truly a Christian. If you truly believe that your just deceiving yourself because you can't fathom how a "true christian" could turn away from God. 

 

It's because God's supposed word does not reflect REALITY you fucking ass. Some of us have the gift of rational and logical thought unlike you who would rather serve a figment of some ancient tent dwellers imagination as he explained the world to his tribe as he saw it with the extremely limited knowledge he had. 

 

If you had any hope of turning someone here back to Christianity I'm sure you just fucked it up with that comment. Empathy would be your friend here. 

[Derek]

Fish...

The Christian religion is widely regarded as having been fathered by Abraham. Here was a man who was fully prepared to brutally murder his only child and sacrifice him to god because A VOICE TOLD HIM TO. I was told that story as a very young child...I would lay awake at night wondering if my father was prepared to kill me if he heard that voice. The rampant god-sanctioned violence of the old testament, including that story, scarred me for life. Your religion is evil. I will never go back. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

2 hours ago, Fish153 said:

 

If you see a sign that says BEWARE: CLIFF IN 150 FEET and you BELIEVE it you slow down and stop don't you? If you REFUSE to believe it you drive forward towards your own destruction.  Of course, the sign COULD BE false, but if halfway intelligent you would check it out before driving on.

 

Deconverts were ABLE to go right past Hebrews 6:4-6. Why? Because they REALLY didn't believe even though they claimed to. They were always looking for a way out-- a way to get away from Christianity, just like those in John 6. When they found the way out they took it.

This is a really dumb analogy to use when your audience has literally already been down that road.  That's the part you don't quite seem to grasp about us being ex-christians.  We already know there's no cliff. 

 

But you got us all figured out, don't you?  We just never were real christians to begin with.

 

Well, I'm not going to debate with you over which one of us had the biggest christian dick.  I will simply say, truth be told, you're scared shitless because deep down inside there's a part of you that knows I'm right.  I did use the same standard as you.  And you will come up false by it, too.

[midniterider]

6 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Midnite---

I did not care about God at all up until I was 17 years old. We didn't go to church, and I never read the Bible. I was as much a heathen as anyone 

My next door neighbor knocked one day and said "Joe, there's still time". That's literally all he said, and handed me a Gospel of John to read.

I shelved it for about three days, but having some free time I began to read. When I reached John 10 I read "I am the Good Shepherd and I call my sheep by name".

 

I don't know how to explain this but I heard my name being called-- no a physical voice, but an inward drawing. I said "Jesus, can I be one of your sheep?" and I became overwhelmed with emotion.

No one else was there influencing me-- there was no music or altar call. I was alone, touched by the Holy Spirit.

 

At that moment the Bible became alive. It was no longer a story or history book. It was like a letter from a Father to His children. I have never been the same since.

 

I have wavered at times and doubted. But I cannot deny how CLEAN I felt, and the massive change that had taken place in me. A yearning to do good and to please Jesus.  I had been an infidel a half hour before, but now I was a Child of God.

 

I have continued for almost 50 years now-- and I believe MORE STRONGLY than at the beginning. I was TRULY BORN AGAIN. I could never renounce the faith. It is TOO REAL.

 

I felt the 'Holy Spirit' every time I read the bible , sang songs in church, prayed.... for a few years anyway....then it faded away. It was just a dopamine response that can be brought about in several ways, through religious practice, BDSM practice, jogging and other activities. I was a believer for 10 years, became a believer after marrying one. Then got divorced and fell away. Then came here and discovered it was all nonsense anyway. After 10 years I was just left with shame, fear and guilt , which left a bad taste in my mouth. And the bad taste was from the bible, not the church people. 

[midniterider]

6 hours ago, Fish153 said:

"It is impossible for those who were ONCE ENLIGHTENED if they fall away, to renew them to repentance". Astreja, others, it appears this is the case with you. You have tread under foot the Son of God, and are hardened terribly. I know now why I stopped going to these boards. It's the blind leading the blind. Goodbye.

 

Aren't ya gonna wait to be banned? 

[midniterider]

5 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Luck is all you've got now. You're gambling with your eternity.

 

I reject your fear based bullshit. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

5 hours ago, Fish153 said:

But someone who only "claims" to believe and is ABLE to go beyond those verses-- past that fence-- has PROVEN they NEVER REALLY BELIEVED. Because if they believed they would fear. Those who only "claim" to be believers and are ABLE to continue will become the very apostates the verses speak of-- and they will mock what they once believed.  It is the other side of the two-edged sword. Instead of being kept in, they choose to go out. And their very ABILITY to do so shows they never truly had saving faith to begin with. They are soon able to sneer and mock at verses and beliefs they "thought" they held pprecious.

 

Or maybe the very people that the author was writing about, figured out it was all bullshit back then. And that's what they told everyone to keep them from questioning and leaving. Hebrews was one of the letters to the churches. Trying to elaborate on doctrine. 

[midniterider]

Why do you think that someone cant STOP being a Christian. Maybe some of us are courageous. Maybe some of us can kick a toxic addiction like Christianity. Maybe some of us can stand up to our imagination God. After 10 years of Christianity I told Jesus I didnt like his scriptures and if he didnt like it oh well. I wasn't going to let it continue to screw up my head any longer. No response from Jesus. As usual. Probably because he isn't real. 

 

 

 

[Astreja]

7 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Astreja--When I saw your post I had to comment. Look what you said about the Holy Spirit. You are WILFULLY doing something you know Jesus condemned forcefully.

 

Yes, and I specifically did it to piss you off because you're such an odious little Bible-Bot.  (I don't actually believe that there is a Holy Spook to slander.)

 

Quote

No-- my faith won't slowly bleed away.

 

You have a point.  You're so deep in the Jesus juice that it probably won't leave you till the moment of your death, when your brain shuts down and you automatically and permanently lose everything you ever knew and believed.

 

Quote

One day you WILL bow before Jesus Christ. I don't wish Hell upon you at all. I wish you would repent and turn back. Good luck!!

 

Not gonna happen.  If there ever was a Jesus, he's been stone-cold-dead for nearly two millennia.  The idea of people coming back from the dead is ridiculous and childish.

 

I don't wish hell upon you either.  I am, however, not in the least bit averse to the real world treating you very, very badly to teach you the lesson that one does not just wander into someone's living room, take a dump on the carpet and then threaten them with Eternal Consequences because they don't believe what you believe.

[Astreja]

4 hours ago, Fish153 said:

If you see a sign that says BEWARE: CLIFF IN 150 FEET and you BELIEVE it you slow down and stop don't you?

 

We slowed down.  We stopped.  We saw that there was no cliff, concluded that whoever put the sign up was full of crap, and drove on.

[LogicalFallacy]

15 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

We slowed down.  We stopped.  We saw that there was no cliff, concluded that whoever put the sign up was full of crap, and drove on.

 

This x 1,000. 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Resisting the Borg is fu-tile.  This phrase from Star Trek comes to mind each time we get into one if these arguments.  At least this one wasn't a troll.

[sdelsolray]

Folks, consider that this one self-indoctrinated himself for 50 years.

[Narrator]

I haven't read all 6 pages, so apologies if I'm repeating an argument someone else has made.

 

The state of Israel only proves the will of people.

If enough of you want something, and you create the right momentum...

...finally getting that something should not be considered a miracle.

 

It happens all the time.

Someone wants to do the impossible and become a rock star.

Rock stars got their wish. Do rock stars prove God's existence?

Kennedy and NASA wanted to do the impossible and go to the Moon.

Did the "small step for a man" prove God's existence?

Men have wanted to fly since before the dawn of history.

Did Orville and Wilbur prove God's existence?

 

Reminds me of the old joke. If God had wanted us to fly, he would have given us airplane tickets.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I think it also bears pointing out,  @Fish153, that you are presenting your No True Scotsman argument under the assumption that we all chose to abandon our faith.  You're ignorant.  I don't mean that as a put down, just an observation of fact.  No one can truly understand deconversion unless they've been through it themselves.  Many can empathize; but few can comprehend.  Yourself included.

 

Not a single one of us ever woke up one morning and thought, "you know, today after I finish mowing the grass, maybe I'll just go ahead and reject everything I've ever believed in, completely destroy my entire world view and the life I've built upon it, lose a bunch of my friends, maybe even get disowned by my family, and if I'm really lucky my wife will leave and take my kids away from me."  Not one of us ever made that choice.  Not one of us ever made a conscious decision to reject, abandon, or lose our faith.

 

Deconversion happened to us.  Often without our consent or even our knowledge.  Many of us didn't even realize it was happening until it was already too late; and then we fought like mad to hold on to it.  My own deconversion lasted for four of the most brutal years of my life.  I'm not afraid of hell, because I've already been there and I survived.

 

And if it happened to me, it CAN happen to you.

 

You can deny it; you can say it ain't so.  You can call me a fool and swear you'll never ever in a million years end up like me.  I did the same when I was a christian.  But the fact that we're here, that this website exists, is a constant reminder to you that it can happen.  And that fucking scares the shit out of you, whether you're willing to admit it or not.

 

I sincerely hope it doesn't happen to you though.  If you can't even last a week in The Lion's Den without wanting to tuck tail and run, there's no way you'd have the strength, wherewithal, and testicular fortitude to handle what we've been through to get here.  Good luck and godspeed, boy.

 

[Hierophant]

@Fish153 Why do you believe the Bible is true? The Bible was the catalyst for me leaving the faith, not that I wanted to run away from Jesus or any other straw-man argument you want to levy at those who left.

[Hierophant]

The other thing I would add to this debate, wouldn't your argument for the Dead Sea scrolls and Israel becoming a nation be more of an argument for Judaism, and not Christianity?

[Joshpantera]

1948 Statehood of Israel does not fulfill Bible prophecy! - James Japan (jamesjpn.net)

 

Even christians are split on the claim that statehood of Israel has anything to do with prophecy. It's certainly not a given even among christians. And can't possibly prove or demonstrate anything objective about the existence of god, that's for sure. The entire premise is flawed from the core level. 

 

He's never bothered to establish god as factual in the first place. 

He then takes off without establishing the facts of his claims and then layers more claims on top of the unproven previous claims. That walks the issue down to Ezekiel. Then he has no way of establishing that statehood of Israel in 1948 has anything to do with what Ezekiel was about in the first place. Ezekiel is a book written about the Jews in exile and telling them that they will return home, which, they did. Way back then. That is the most obvious context for Ezekiel. 

 

All of the biblical writings, including the dead sea scrolls, are POST EXILE documents. For instance, with the book of Daniel textual critics have been able to reverse engineer to discover that who ever was writing the book had a good knowledge of history later during the post exile times but had an increasingly poor understanding of history going back to the supposed time of Daniel in exile. Most of these so-called prophetic books were written way later and back dated to an earlier setting. It's a writing style. And it makes it look as though things were predicted, but it does so well after the fact. It's deceptive writing in that way. 

 

This is the problem with presupposition and pure assumption presented as if they are true and factual. They are assumptions, not objective facts. The person is building a series of claims upon the foundation of pure assumption that is never verified as objectively true in the first place. 

 

This guy has been challenged to take the existence of god to a formal debate. Crickets so far......

[TheRedneckProfessor]

12 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

It's deceptive writing in that way.