ISRAEL PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

[Fish153]

Redneck--

Despite what you say you DID make a choice to deconvert. In John 6 it says many of his "disciples" turned away and "walked with Him no more". That is a choice Red. You made a CHOICE.  

Of course you didn't wake up one morning and say "I no longer believe".

But you allowed circumstances and periods of dryness to convince you. Basically, you're faith was tried and found wanting.

 

It wasn't REAL. Just as gold is tested in the fire, so God tests our faith to see if it is genuine. He often does this with "desertion" and dryness. He makes Himself feel so far away that you want to throw in the towel. But if one has TRULY met Jesus you WILL NOT fall away or apostate. 

 

Yiu can argue all you want that your faith WAS real, and how I don't understand. Sure I do. God has felt SO FAR AWAY sometimes that I am almost sure He can't exist. But after the test God shows once again HE IS THERE. He tests us this way. Sometimes, as it was in my case, the test can last years. I wanted to let go, but I loved God too much to do so.

 

Read Isaiah 50:10. This is God testing a believer. God says that one can be walking in complete darkness as a Christian, but God says to hold on--He is there.  But see, you turned back because you did not possess true faith. That is very obvious.

 

No-- it CAN'T happen to me Red. I've been through what you have and SURVIVED THE TEST.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Asserting it doesn't make it so, son.  You were not there.  You haven't experienced it.  You do not know.  You're welcome to believe whatever you'd like.

[Fish153]

DarkBishop--

 

Well of course you cuss and swear. God tested you and your faith WAS found not to be genuine. Gold is tested in the fire to make sure its gold. YOU were tested in the fire to see if your faith was genuine. And it wasn't. You failed the test. And now you're angry when someone points this out to you.

 

No one turns away for good from Jesus if they are a real, genuine, believer. That's just the facts. Get angry all you want. It's true. Just read John 6. You'll see yourself there. It's quite simple.

[Fish153]

DarkBishop--

 

I must state that you have done what so many deconverts do: devolved to calling someone an a$$hole because of a statement. Have I called you any names? Have I called anyone names here? I have been attacked already on this board but no need to resort to name-calling.

 

I truly believe you were NEVER a real believer. So? You are going to call me an a$$hole because of that? Why? Do you have a chip on your shoulder so big that you can't take a statement contrary to what you believe to be true?

 

I've already been referred to as extremely ignorant. Fine. You can believe that. I'm not going to call you names as a result of that.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

4 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

I've already been referred to as extremely ignorant. Fine. You can believe that.

Ignorant simply means you don't know.  In the case of deconversion, it is an appropriate term.  Because... you don't know.  Not rocket surgery, son.

[Fish153]

One person on this board, after just a couple of my posts said: "F you!!! And F the Holy Spirit!!"

 

Doesn't this kind of show you that as "intuitive and intelligent" as many deconverts pretend to be, they are really emotion filled, easily disturbed individuals?  I say this as I have experienced this same thing on many boards.

 

"Don't you dare say I was never a real Christian you Mother-F%%%r!!"  Why should that be such a trigger? If you think you were once a real Christian, good for you.   Scripture shows differently, not just me. I say this because of what scripture shows in John 6. There are "disciples"( those who see themselves as true believers) who turn away for good. The same chapter says "Jesus knew who did NOT believe, and who would betray him". They THOUGHT they were believers until a trial of their faith caused them to turn back and never walk with Jesus again.

 

Matt 7 speaks of those who THOUGHT they were believers also, crying to Jesus about miracles they did in his name, etc,but Jesus says "I NEVER knew you" (they were never true believers).

So there is much Biblical basis to what I say when I claim you never really believed. Don't call me an a$$hole because I state something the Bible claims to be true.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

16 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

DarkBishop--

 

I must state that you have done what so many deconverts do: devolved to calling someone an a$$hole because of a statement. Have I called you any names? Have I called anyone names here? I have been attacked already on this board but no need to resort to name-calling.

 

I truly believe you were NEVER a real believer. So? You are going to call me an a$$hole because of that? Why? Do you have a chip on your shoulder so big that you can't take a statement contrary to what you believe to be true?

 

I've already been referred to as extremely ignorant. Fine. You can believe that. I'm not going to call you names as a result of that.

Fish,

One doesn't have to cuss or call names to be equally offensive. You are a condescending asshole and have no empathy for people who have been through religious trauma caused by assholes like you. I didn't call you any names until you insulted me. 

 

I know you don't think its possible for someone who truly believed to deconvert. Your deceiving yourself by believing that. But never the less. Atleast accept that we believed we had true faith. Whether you think we did or not. We feel like we did. Can we atleast agree on that? Now Put yourself in our shoes. Try to picture how you would feel if all of a sudden you realized it was all a lie. That your whole fabric of reality, your whole belief system, and your whole social circle were pulled from beneath your feet. How traumatic would it be if you knew you didn't have Jesus anymore? I'm asking you to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Hypothetically. It wasn't an easy conclusion for everyone. How would you feel if all of a sudden you lost it all? 

[Hierophant]

7 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

One person on this board, after just a couple of my posts said: "F you!!! And F the Holy Spirit!!"

 

Doesn't this kind of show you that as "intuitive and intelligent" as many deconverts pretend to be, they are really emotion filled, easily disturbed individuals?  I say this as I have experienced this same thing on many boards.

 

"Don't you dare say I was never a real Christian you Mother-F%%%r!!"  Why should that be such a trigger? If you think you were once a real Christian, good for you.   Scripture shows differently, not just me. I say this because of what scripture shows in John 6. There are "disciples"( those who see themselves as true believers) who turn away for good. The same chapter says "Jesus knew who did NOT believe, and who would betray him". They THOUGHT they were believers until a trial of their faith caused them to turn back and never walk with Jesus again.

 

Matt 7 speaks of those who THOUGHT they were believers also, crying to Jesus about miracles they did in his name, etc,but Jesus says "I NEVER knew you" (they were never true believers).

So there is much Biblical basis to what I say when I claim you never really believed. Don't call me an a$$hole because I state something the Bible claims to be true.

 

Why should I believe what the Bible says? You keep quoting the Bible as if it is an authority, and I have no reason to think so.

[Hierophant]

@Fish153 Also, you belief is built on emotion and conviction, just like every other adherent to other religions. You are claiming to know the truth, with a capital 'T,' but yet, you have no foundation for your belief system. As others have stated, if you could build a case for your religion, from the ground up, I would definitely take you seriously.

 

I tried this method because after 15 years of generally believing Christianity, I realized that too many adherent believers all claim to know the TRUTH of God's Word, yet none of them agree on how to interpret it. I could spend 10 seconds on the internet and find a ton of people who think you are going to Hell because you do not adhere to XYZ as dogma.

 

In my quest to build a faith inductively, it failed. There is no method to establish there is a God of any type, let alone the God of the Bible.

 

If any God is real, then they have put us in an impossible position. There is no way to know a God is real, what that God is like, and what that God wants. Everything you are stating as fact, is merely words of assertion springing from your personal conviction about how the world is and operates. You are asserting as fact for what is merely speculation. As Aron Ra puts it well, if you cannot show it, you do not know it.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

8 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

One person on this board, after just a couple of my posts said: "F you!!! And F the Holy Spirit!!"

 

Doesn't this kind of show you that as "intuitive and intelligent" as many deconverts pretend to be, they are really emotion filled, easily disturbed individuals?  I say this as I have experienced this same thing on many boards.

 

"Don't you dare say I was never a real Christian you Mother-F%%%r!!"  Why should that be such a trigger? If you think you were once a real Christian, good for you.   Scripture shows differently, not just me. I say this because of what scripture shows in John 6. There are "disciples"( those who see themselves as true believers) who turn away for good. The same chapter says "Jesus knew who did NOT believe, and who would betray him". They THOUGHT they were believers until a trial of their faith caused them to turn back and never walk with Jesus again.

 

Matt 7 speaks of those who THOUGHT they were believers also, crying to Jesus about miracles they did in his name, etc,but Jesus says "I NEVER knew you" (they were never true believers).

So there is much Biblical basis to what I say when I claim you never really believed. Don't call me an a$$hole because I state something the Bible claims to be true.

 

You know.. your right fish. It shouldn't piss me off so much when some arrogant brainwashed Christian talls me that, because I was once that arrogant brainwashed Christian myself. In a way I feel sorry for you. I was once just as petty and brainwashed as you. I even preached sermons saying exactly the same thing as you. The sad thing from my point of view is that you've wasted your life believing in fairy tales. I still have a lot of life to live barring anything unforseen. And I get to live it on my terms. Not under the oppressive regime of an oppressive church doctrine from two millenia ago. I get to live as Dark Bishop. Not as Jesus. I get to be me. While you'll spend the rest of your life trying to be like Jesus bit never being truly able to do it. Because no one else can be as good as Jesus. 

 

Fuck Jesus. I don't need him. Hell fucker probably never existed either. Just like Moses, Abraham, methusela, and all the other made up bullshit in the Bible. 

[Fish153]

DarkBishop--

 

Oh yes. I can agree with that 100%. You do believe you had genuine faith. I believe you truly believe that. But please, read John 6.

 

These people were "disciples". It says so. But they "turned back and walked with Him no more". Why? They were offended by what he said and couldn't believe it.

 

Then it states clearly "Jesus already KNEW who did NOT believe, and who would betray Him".  You see, they claimed to be his "disciples". They would surely say "I'm a believer" if you asked them. But Jesus KNEW that they did not really believe. So he tested them, and they turned back for good. You see? They weren't really believers.

 

I believe many deconverts really believe they were "disciples". Dan Barker does. But his book title is "Losing faith in faith" not "Losing faith in Christ" because he never really had faith in Christ.  He would argue the point, and possibly call me an A$$hole for stating it, but Dan Barker despite his 19 years as a "Christian" was not a Christian at all.

[Hierophant]

Just now, Fish153 said:

 Dan Barker does. But his book title I'd "Losing faith in faith" not "Losing faith in Christ" because he never really had faith in Christ.  He would argue the point, and possibly call me an A$$hole for stating it, but Dan Barker despite his 19 years as a "Christian" was not a Christian at all.

 

You don't understand what Dan Barker meant. He was stating he realized the fallacy of believing things by faith, i.e., just assuming something is true without objective evidence or reasoning.

[Fish153]

DarkBishop--

Observe: "F Jesus!" you state. What about being challenged concerning whether you were a Christian or not makes you so angry? Most deconverts devolve into "F you" quite quickly. It's quite interesting to behold.

[Hierophant]

1 minute ago, Fish153 said:

Oh yes. I can agree with that 100%. You do believe you had genuine faith. I believe you truly believe that. But please, read John 6.

 

Again, you are just quote mining the Bible. Why should anyone here care what John 6 says? Scholars know that John was written by at least four different authors. Also, it is believed John was altered to sound more orthodox because it has Gnostic sayings in it. The John we have now was not the original. Your fundamentalist stance on the Bible is without merit.

[Hierophant]

Just now, Fish153 said:

DarkBishop--

Observe: "F Jesus!" you state. What about being challenged concerning whether you were a Christian or not makes you so angry? Most deconverts devolve into F you quite quickly. It's quite interesting to behold.

 

Probably because you are pretending to know more about DarkBishop than DarkBishop knows about himself. You are ASSUMING there is a Jesus and that if someone met him, they would not turn back. There is no reason to believe there is a spiritual Jesus out there and is to be known.

[Fish153]

Hierophant--

 

Dan Barker is showing what he lost faith in. He NEVER really had faith in Christ at all. His "faith" was placed in church, people, and doctrines he didn't really believe. He didn't lose faith in Christ Himself-- he lost faith in Christianity. It's quite clear. I've read his book and even emailed back and forth with him. He's not quick to proclaim someone an a$$hole ( he hasn't yet lol) and he is quite intelligent. But he was never a real believer despite his protests to the contrary. He was a churchian, not a Christian.

[Hierophant]

Just now, Fish153 said:

Hierophant--

 

Dan Barker is showing what he lost faith in. He NEVER really had faith in Christ at all. His "faith" was placed in church, people, and doctrines he didn't really believe. He didn't lose faith in Christ Himself-- he lost faith in Christianity. It's quite clear. I've read his book and even emailed back and forth with him. He's not quick to proclaim someone an a$$hole, and he is quite intelligent. But he was never a real believer despite his protests to the contrary. He was a churchian, not a Christian.

 

I see, so you do not believe he had "saving" faith in Jesus. Tell me, what do you believe faith in Jesus is?

[walterpthefirst]

Fish,

 

Can we settle this?

 

You don't have any proofs or any evidence, do you?

 

Just faith, isn't that right?

 

Walter.

[Hierophant]

5 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Hierophant--

 

Dan Barker is showing what he lost faith in. He NEVER really had faith in Christ at all. His "faith" was placed in church, people, and doctrines he didn't really believe. He didn't lose faith in Christ Himself-- he lost faith in Christianity. It's quite clear. I've read his book and even emailed back and forth with him. He's not quick to proclaim someone an a$$hole ( he hasn't yet lol) and he is quite intelligent. But he was never a real believer despite his protests to the contrary. He was a churchian, not a Christian.

 

I will agree with you that how adherents of the faith act, or how a church in general behaves, does not really speak to whether or not Christianity, broadly speaking is true. I think it would be evidence that the Holy Spirit is not really active in the church, but that just becomes theological speculations. The truth of whether or not Christianity is true is a question of objective evidence....and in that department, it is lacking.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, Fish153 said:

Redneck--

Despite what you say you DID make a choice to deconvert. In John 6 it says many of his "disciples" turned away and "walked with Him no more". That is a choice Red. You made a CHOICE.  

Of course you didn't wake up one morning and say "I no longer believe".

But you allowed circumstances and periods of dryness to convince you. Basically, you're faith was tried and found wanting.

 

It wasn't REAL. Just as gold is tested in the fire, so God tests our faith to see if it is genuine. He often does this with "desertion" and dryness. He makes Himself feel so far away that you want to throw in the towel. But if one has TRULY met Jesus you WILL NOT fall away or apostate. 

 

Yiu can argue all you want that your faith WAS real, and how I don't understand. Sure I do. God has felt SO FAR AWAY sometimes that I am almost sure He can't exist. But after the test God shows once again HE IS THERE. He tests us this way. Sometimes, as it was in my case, the test can last years. I wanted to let go, but I loved God too much to do so.

 

Read Isaiah 50:10. This is God testing a believer. God says that one can be walking in complete darkness as a Christian, but God says to hold on--He is there.  But see, you turned back because you did not possess true faith. That is very obvious.

 

No-- it CAN'T happen to me Red. I've been through what you have and SURVIVED THE TEST.

 

 

 

Your imagination said you were being tested by God being quiet. 

Then your imagination said that God was back in your life. 

Now you feel you survived a test.

[Hierophant]

Fish - why is God testing people if he knows everything? Doesn't that seem redundant and pointless?

[TheRedneckProfessor]

20 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Then it states clearly "Jesus already KNEW who did NOT believe, and who would betray Him". 

I guess that blows your whole "free will" argument out of the water.  Clearly, predestination is the truth.  Scripture says so.  If you believe in free will, you're not a true christian either.  See you in hell, son.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

43 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Don't you dare say I was never a real Christian you Mother-F%%%r!!" 

If the word "motherfucker" is offensive to you, I'm sure we can find something else to call you.

 

Seriously, though.  Do Not try to gaslight us.  You know you were being offensive toward us; don't be surprised when we throw it back at you.

[Fish153]

Redneck---

 

Come on. "You know you were being offensive towards us". Well, of course. The "points" I am making are offensive to you. But I have not said "Red, you are a motherf###r!"  There is a big difference there. If you don't like what I'm saying of course you are going to be offended. I can be offended without resorting to calling all of you a$$holes or motherf$#$rs. Geez.

[midniterider]

1 hour ago, Fish153 said:

DarkBishop--

 

Well of course you cuss and swear. God tested you and your faith WAS found not to be genuine. Gold is tested in the fire to make sure its gold.

 

Fish knows the mind of God! Wow. Fish somehow knows that God tested him! 

 

C'mon, Fish you just whipped up that "God tested you" crap out of thin air. Quit making up nonsense and pretending to be God. 

 

You've gone past the point where you should have dusted off your feet and moved on. The reality of our words and the falsity of your faith/religion is triggering the survival instinct of your indoctrination. You're hitting us with the 'hard stuff'. (lol) You know what we say is true but you dont want to allow yourself to think that thought....

 

You arent the first to threaten us with your imaginary hell and say we were never true Christians, blah blah blah.