ISRAEL PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

[Fish153]

Already gone--

I apologize--- there are MANY posts, and there is just me so it can take a while for me to answer a question.

 

Noah's Ark? That is a difficult one. You see, I don't believe in a young earth either. I believe the earth is billions of years old. I think that is obvious. Dinosaurs are millions of years old. The Bible nowhere teaches that the earth was created in 6 literal days.

 

As for Noah's Ark. I do believe there was an Ark. Do I believe the ENTIRE EARTH was covered up to the mountains with water? I believe God COULD DO IT if He wanted to--but the Bible doesn't say the ENTIRE EARTH was covered with water. 

 

There are billions of different species on the earth. Do I believe two of each went on the Ark? No. The Ark would not be big enough for that. It could hold thousands of species, but not millions.  But you see, the Bible doesn't say "Two of each species from the ENTIRE EARTH" were on the Ark.

 

It just doesn't say that. So-- my answer to you is that I don't know. I believe there was a flood and an Ark. I sincerely do. But as to how large that flood was, and how many animals were involved, I don't know.

 

Does this mean I don't believe the Bible? No. I just really don't know. I believe in science also. Have any of you ever read or listened to Hugh Ross? If you haven't you should listen to him. He is a Christian, but also an astronomer and scientist. He is extremely intelligent. I think you would be pleasantly surprised. I believe he may have a video about the Ark-- I'll check it out. I do believe that Noah existed-- Jesus says he was a real person. But again, as for the animals I really don't know. Was there a partial salvation of several species from the immediate area? Just as one might save Lemurs from Madagascar if you knew the place would be destroyed. They only exist THERE. We're the animals Noah saved localized to that area of the world? We really don't know do we?

[Astreja]

11 hours ago, Fish153 said:

One person on this board, after just a couple of my posts said: "F you!!! And F the Holy Spirit!!"$hole because I state something the Bible claims to be true.

 

The word is "Fuck," Fish.  At least have the cojones to spell it out, and to attribute it to me.

 

I stand by my words.  You came here uninvited and have borne false witness against us multiple times.  I'm reasonably sure that you do not possess the ability to read our minds -- heck, you probably wouldn't recognize us if we walked past you on the street.  Accordingly, you do not know our experiences or how fervently we believed (or in my unusual case, was unable to ever believe).  For you to dismiss the experiences of the once-devout among us, labelling them with the "You were never true Christians" slander, is shameful behaviour on your part.

 

The Bible is a pile of superstitious nonsense that's well past its best-before date, and it cannot be used to support its own claims.

 

And you, Fish, will always be one personal tragedy, one bad dream, one brain-fart away from your own deconversion.  There are no guarantees that you'll make it through unscathed, because it only takes a single thought or observation to start the dominoes falling.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Fish, look up the defination of delusion.  

 

Also consider this.  50 years ago I was in your shoes and arguing with non-believers.  I also kept hanging around them, joking back and forth, etc.  Slowly but surely what they were saying began to make sense.  If you truely want to maintain your faith, run away ASAP!

 

[alreadyGone]

That's fine Fish...

 

Now, about that original sin.

 

Why would a perfect all-knowing God find it sensible, desirable, or logical to place two humans with no prior knowledge of good or evil in such a position? And to then impose guilt on all subsequent generations of humans for their actions?

 

Do you believe what the book of Genesis portrays about the events in the garden of Eden to be the actual truth of what happened and why it happened?

 

If God created Adam and Eve to be who and what they were, would He not have known beforehand what the outcome would be of such a test?

 

.

 

 

[alreadyGone]

23 minutes ago, Astreja said:

 

The word is "Fuck," Fish. ...

 

Do you not realize the deadly-serious consequences of placing the letter "u" after the letter "F", and following that with the letter "c", ending it with a "k" ???

 

Whatever is wrong with you?

 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

3 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Hierophant-- LOL. So the discovery of the Hittites is not good enough for you huh? Even though many scoffed at the idea such a people existed. Then it is PROVEN they did exist. People "changed their minds"?  Of course they did. They acknowledged THE BIBLE WAS RIGHT. What's your point?

 

You really set yourself up for a failure with your logic in the above. Which then leads to this very relevant response back at you: 

 

2 hours ago, Krowb said:

By your reckoning does the discovery of the Minoans validate the gods of the Greek Pantheon? 

 

HOMER'S ODYSSEY WAS RIGHT.

 

Homer's Odyssey speaks of a wealthy island civilization in which bulls feature prominently.  This was considered mythical until recently when the Minoan civilization was discovered.  The fact that ancient people knew of then contemporary civilizations does not validate the whole of the writing.

 

I'm sure you would agree the Odyssey contains a mixture of factual history and fiction.

 

The same point is made with Troy. Or anything remotely similar.

 

You don't validate the entire bible because a "contemporary" people once thought to be only mythical were found to actually exist.

 

That does zero for your arguments about the existence of god or the bible as divinely written truth. A mythology based around real geographical places and people is no less a mythology on account of it. Or else you've validated Greek, Roman, near and far eastern mythologies the world over. Just because real towns or people existed within the process of myth making. That argument and direction has never worked for any apologist before you. And it doesn't work now, obviously. 

[Fish153]

Astreja-- 

What do you mean "uninvited"? Then why create a "Lion's den" in the first place? I have simply said things that deeply offend you, and you need to ask yourself WHY they offend you so greatly. What would offend me so badly that I would curse the Holy Spirit??  Me saying that deconverts were never Christians? Why is that so offensive? Offensive enough to curse the Holy Spirit?

 

I have another board member asking if I have ever been diagnosed by a psychiatrist. Am I the one cursing the Holy Spirit at the drop of a hat? Give me a break.

 

No-- Astreja, I will not deconvert-- and I'm not steps away from it. I have visited boards like this on and off for years. I hadn't visited one in about 5 years when I came here. But every time I visit one of these boards my faith is strengthened. It truly is. And I become very thankful that I am a believer, a Child of God.

 

Do I believe I will not deconvert because I am so strong, and determined? No. I will not deconvert because Jesus is interceding for me that "my faith fail not".

 

Remember Peter? Jesus TOLD him he would DENY him. Peter refused to believe it. But Jesus says "WHEN you return to me strengthen your brethren. I have prayed for you that your faith fail not".  Notice Jesus says "WHEN you return..." not IF you return..."  Jesus already KNEW that despite his great fall Peter would repent and return. And this was all because Jesus prayed for him. I KNOW Jesus intercedes for me. I never say "I won't fall" with reliance on ME. I RELY on Jesus. I have been a Christian for MANY years now, and my faith has only grown stronger. Jesus will keep me, of that I am certain. He loves me.

 

 

[alreadyGone]

1 minute ago, Fish153 said:

... What would offend me so badly that I would curse the Holy Spirit??...

 

What uh... is a "spirit" ?

 

We really haven't established any basis on which to accept the existence of anything called a spirit, have we? Or did I miss something?

 

How can you be concerned about offending something if you don't even know what it is, and therefore whether it is in fact possible to offend it?

 

 

[alreadyGone]

I believe in chamomile tea.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

9 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

 

I have another board member asking if I have ever been diagnosed by a psychiatrist. Am I the one cursing the Holy Spirit at the drop of a hat? Give me a break.

 

Have you looked up the definition of delusion?  And why haven't you answered my PM questions?  I'm out of here until you do.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

We're making good progress.  Glad to see we've managed thus far to avoid a total devolution into name calling and instead tackling important topics.

 

A quick recap is in order:

 

@Fish153 started from an initial position that the creation of nation-state Israel coupled with near-simultaneous (within a couple of years) finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls were proof of his conception of the Christian God.

 

After much discussion this was relegated to evidence, then down to incredulity that such occurrence of two seemingly unrelated events were anything other than proof (or at least evidence) of Fish153's god.

 

Links and passages were provided wherein a mutually exclusive faith:  Islam, also cites those same events as proof of the truth of Allah.  A position Fish153 vehemently denies.  Confronted with this evidence, discussion has moved properly to why the Christian Bible is reliable.

 

Fish153 had previously been questioned regarding specific stories from the bible and are now being addressed in no particular order.

1. The two creation stories of Genesis - waiting
2. The Exodus - article of faith
3. The Great Flood - unknown, but believes god caused a flood of some kind, just likely not the entire earth
4. The resurrected saints in Matthew - waiting

Fish153 initially presented the discovery of the Hittites as evidence for the reliability of the Bible, but was met swiftly with two counter-examples from the Odyssey. 

 

@walterpthefirst has requested multiple times for Fish153 to acknowledge he stands on faith alone in his beliefs, but Fish thus far trudges on in his quest to prove out the reliability of the Bible.

 

Trying to shore up the Old Testament is a common tactic among amateur apologists, for it is a necessary component of Christianity, but is not sufficient as it also provides the foundation for other competing religions:  Judaism, Islam, and (since he brought it up) Mormonism.  It is also a tactic that quickly gets mired in the fog of history or the unpleasantness of Yahweh, before his redemption arc in Christianity.

 

 

[alreadyGone]

2 minutes ago, Krowb said:

....It is also a tactic that quickly gets mired in the fog of history or the unpleasantness of Yahweh, before his redemption arc in Christianity.

 

 

 

Is that the part before or after where He begins smiting people he doesn't like?

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

One more question.  Why did god give the 10 commandments, then turn around and tell the Israelites to slaughter the Cannanites and steal their land, and take their women??  that seems extremly inconsistant.

[Fish153]

Midnite---

Several posts back you said Christianity is a "totalitarian cult". No. Some churches are "cults". I belonged to a very legalistic church years ago. But Christianity itself is not totalitarian. Hell is not to be feared if you believe in Jesus. If a preacher constantly preaches hell then he is centering on one doctrine, and forgetting to preach about forgiveness and love.

 

We shouldn't turn away from Jesus because of men and what they preach.

[Astreja]

8 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Astreja-- What do you mean "uninvited"? Then why create a "Lion's den" in the first place?

 

Because people like you keep showing up here.  This is the only place on the site where you can carry on with your silly drivel - the rest of the site is for us.

 

Quote

I have simply said things that deeply offend you, and you need to ask yourself WHY they offend you so greatly.

 

Because to someone who once believed, and lost their faith, what you are saying about them is a lie.  Why lie about other people, especially about things that only they could possibly know?  What kind of ghastly faith is it that prompts you to shit all over the personal narratives of total strangers?

 

Quote

Jesus will keep me, of that I am certain. He loves me.

 

Dead (or imaginary) people don't love anyone, Fish.  I believe that the love you feel is being generated by your own imagination.

[Fish153]

Weezer---

Why does God call the world condemned for their sin (see Romans 1) and yet come down and die for those sins on a cross? That seems so inconsistent.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

5 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Weezer---

Why does God call the world condemned for their sin (see Romans 1) and yet come down and die for those sins on a cross? That seems so inconsistent.

 

Goodnight.  Sleep tight.

[alreadyGone]

Why would God tell Eve "there is something there so special, so powerful, that I don't want you to know what it is. But there it is, within your reach. OK, I'm gonna go now.."

...and leave the garden for a vacation.

 

Then return and get all pissy about the outcome.

And then proceed to impose judgement on countless generations to come.

 

Isn't that about like telling your 4-year-old daughter "see this box I left on the floor? It contains something really really special, really fun and sparkly. Now don't open it... ok?".

Then leaving for a day or two to let her do as she will.

 

And then when you return to discover that she did exactly what you knew she would do, you yell at her for an hour, telling her:

 

"OK! Now I'm going to throw your favorite doll on the fire and you can watch it burn! And while your doll burns on the fire, I'm gonna take the kitten I gave you last month and wring it's scrawny neck! Maybe then you'll learn to listen to me!!!"

 

 

[Fish153]

Astreja---

Then stay in the areas that are for YOU. Why come and listen to my "drivel" when there are so many areas on the board? You don't HAVE to come to this thread and read my drivel do you?

 

I see no problem telling deconverted people that they were never real believers. Why should that bother them so much? I believe they never had a true change of heart. I think John 6 actually shows us this.

 

If they know they truly believed they can shrug it off can't they? Why should it offend them so deeply? They don't believe NOW right? Why should it matter to them if someone says they never really believed?

 

If I'm an ex-surfer and someone says "I don't think you ever surfed in your life" am I going to turn red and curse at them for saying such a thing? Am I going to shout "F Hawaii!!" ?

[midniterider]

5 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Midnite---

Several posts back you said Christianity is a "totalitarian cult". No. Some churches are "cults". I belonged to a very legalistic church years ago. But Christianity itself is not totalitarian. Hell is not to be feared if you believe in Jesus. If a preacher constantly preaches hell then he is centering on one doctrine, and forgetting to preach about forgiveness and love.

 

We shouldn't turn away from Jesus because of men and what they preach.

 

Did God create Hell? (He created all things, right?)) If so he is evil. It's a repulsive invention. I dont really believe in it. I just think an evil human being or group of people grew this idea to keep people from leaving the religion. While I personally think Hell and all the bible characters are fictional, it's fascinating that you love the being who created hell. 

[Fish153]

Good night Weezer. Good night Weezer.

 

Do you see one or two sentences? Remember what my doctor said.

[Fish153]

MIDNITE--

Actually the Bible says the Lake of Fire (hell) was created for "the devil and his angels". It was not created for men. God is not evil.

[alreadyGone]

@Fish153,

Does that mean that the punishment for not believing is not being cast into eternal burning hell?

 

I am aware that there has been much debate around this in Christian thought and literature for many years.

 

And if the punishment for not being a believer, for not claiming salvation through Christ isn't being condemned into hell, then what?

Simply not being given eternal life, and then going on to death?

 

[Astreja]

16 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Astreja---

Then stay in the areas that are for YOU. Why come and listen to my "drivel" when there are so many areas on the board? You don't HAVE to come to this thread and read my drivel do you?

 

This *is* my area.  I consider it my duty to humanity, to history, to the present generation and to generations to come, to challenge bad ideas.  A lot of those bad ideas show up in the Den.

 

Christianity is a blight upon civilization.  It teaches people that they were born sinful because a mythological woman and her partner had a fruit snack at the behest of a Talking Snake™.  It teaches that people cannot redeem themselves with their actions, but have to accept a human sacrifice to avoid being tortured for eternity.  It's barking mad from top to bottom, and I want it gone.

[Joshpantera]

54 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

I see no problem telling deconverted people that they were never real believers. Why should that bother them so much? I believe they never had a true change of heart. I think John 6 actually shows us this.

 

If they know they truly believed they can shrug it off can't they? Why should it offend them so deeply? They don't believe NOW right? Why should it matter to them if someone says they never really believed?

 

If I'm an ex-surfer and someone says "I don't think you ever surfed in your life" am I going to turn red and curse at them for saying such a thing? Am I going to shout "F Hawaii!!" ?

 

Southern California humor???

 

The funny thing is that I could give two shits about you saying I never truly believed. Hell, I'm 30 years out of believing it. Memory of believing god exists or that the bible is true seems like a distant dream at this point. I've been surfing for more than 35 years, so there was some overlap there between belief and disbelief throughout my surfing. It is laughable for anyone to suggest that I never believed or that I've never surfed. 

 

I'd like to just go with your assertion and say that I never believed in god or the bible, because it's embarrassing to admit that I was ever that naive to begin with. Being that I was a child hopefully I can be excused in some way for my ignorance.

 

Unfortunately, I believed what I was being told as a toddler and small child. I believed the logic that none of this could exist unless a supernatural god (having to be the god of the bible) created it. I felt as though god was always watching and listening to everything, including my inner thoughts. I was very much on my toes about god listening all the time. Until it became clear to me that it was my own inner thoughts, imagination, inner dialogue, and mind basically. Then the belief up and vanished. 

 

I suppose I can be forgiven for my ignorance as a child and young teen???

 

I'd like to believe you that I never was a real christian. It's pretty embarrassing from my perspective. How could I have been that foolish and credulous? But I was. And I have to own up to it. I believed that nonsense without question for 15 years. But there was hope for me. 

 

And there could be hope for anyone else too. The delusion is strong, sure. But it can be overcome. Even in old age in some cases. It's never too late to suddenly get it and see the bible for what it actually is. The mythology. Not literally true in the objective and factual sense. Morally outdated for the most part. In rapid decline this century due to its irrelevance being better and better understood by more and more people.