ISRAEL PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

[Hierophant]

6 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

 

And still, you assume and assert that anyone who once believed and no longer does, lost that belief because of some trauma or suffering.

 

Do you not understand that there can be other reasoning?

 

And,

In which written language did Moses record all the detail of creation, Adam and Eve in the garden, and Noah's ark?

 

I'm certain that you know the answer, but you are unwilling for some reason to share that truth here..

 

I've noticed Fish is dogging a lot of questions that would them in a quandary.

[alreadyGone]

@Fish153,

 

In which written language did Moses supposedly record all that God related to him about creation, Adam and Eve, and Noah's ark?

 

Not much actual knowledge to be had regarding that is there?

 

 

Earlier you asserted that my opinions regarding the Bible are nothing more than what I've read or heard from other non-believers.

 

I don't pretend to be immune to influence by others, but when it's a matter of importance, even the possibility that I may indeed have an immortal "spirit" which may be in danger of eternal punishment... 

I tend to ask my own questions.

 

This is one such question.. it first occurred to me a few months ago.

I've never seen or heard this asked by anyone else.

And I did my own research.

 

You may know the/an answer, or perhaps you can do some research and find an answer..  

There is a problem there however.  Can you discover that problem?

 

Are you honestly willing to explore this?

Or, do your feelings and closely-held beliefs prevent you looking?

 

Which is more important Fish... the truth, or how we feel about the truth?

[nontheistpilgrim]

Fish: What do you make of these two statements? I'd be interested to know: once upon a time I fully supported them.

“In evaluating …. rational arguments it should be pointed out first of all that believers do not need them. Their conviction respecting the existence of God does not depend on them, but on a a believing acceptance of God’s self-revelation in Scripture.” (Berkhof: Systematic Theology)

and

“Faith, therefore, and only faith can furnish, fit and sufficient material for a scientific theology….faith is the highest kind of knowing”. (Strong: Systematic Theology)

 

[LogicalFallacy]

3 hours ago, Fish153 said:

 

What you state is entirely YOUR OPINION. YOU state the Bible was written by fallible men. This has never been proven. This is your opinion only and just as subjective as my belief. You can't PROVE God didn't write the Bible can you? 

 

@Fish153 At this point I'm rolling on the floor laughing. It is not an opinion that the bible was written by men, it is a fact. It is also a fact, even under your worldview that humans are fallible. You can argue that humans were inspired by God, but you cannot argue that the bible was not written by men.

 

But I think I'll go out on a limb here and state we can prove the bible wasn't written by a perfect God. We know this because there are errors and mistakes in it. A perfect omniscient God wouldn't have had errors. This alone shows that fallible humans were involved. 

 

There is one verse that proves this more than any other: It's the one in Romans that basically claims we ex-Christians all really know Gods exists in our hearts but we just don't want to believe. Aside from the paradox where someone apparently knows something but doesn't believe it (A logical impossibility) this is the biggest load of baloney in the bible.

 

Because I know that I know that I don't know that God exists. So the bible is wrong right there. And any omniscient God would know this and therefore wouldn't have written it. The verse in question rather bears the marks of humans going into self defense mode to explain why some may have left the faith. What better way to convince the masses than to claim that they really do know, but they are just pretending not to know? Makes everyone feel better, and more secure in their faith.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Hierophant said:

 

I've noticed Fish is dogging a lot of questions that would them in a quandary.

 

Yes Hierophant, Fish is dodging.

 

He's knows that if he did admit that he has no proofs or evidence but only faith, the very next question we'd put to him would be this one.

 

"Then why should we take what you believe by faith over what a Muslim, a Sikh or a Hindu believes by faith?"

 

As long he carries on dodging he can avoid having to answer that question.

 

It's a pretty standard delaying tactic used by many Christian apologists.

 

So long as he dodges the only way forward is for us to keep on asking him the same question.

 

Doing that draws attention to this tactic and any witnessing to us he was hoping to do is ruined by his all-too-obvious refusal to answer.

 

 

 

So, keeping the spotlight firmly on you Fish, please answer the question I put to you.

 

You don't have any proofs or evidence, but only faith - isn't that right?

 

Please answer.

 

 

Walter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, Fish153 said:

A deconvert from the USA steps before Jesus. There was no chance he would be killed for his faith. At the most he might suffer insults. "You didn't answer my prayers so I concluded you didn't exist" he says. "And people in the church mistreated me. They were hypocrits!" So I turned back from you with good reason".

lmao   

 

You really think it was that simple don't you? Boy oh boy. Your a pill.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Alreadygone---

I never said anything of the sort. I do not deny your journeys have been painful. My journey has been very painful too, but I still believe. I believed for many years I had committed the "unpardonable sin". That was excruciating. I would not wish that on anyone! But it was a test. Would I give up and turn back, or hold on with all of my heart?

 

Deconverts seem to believe they have experienced some unique suffering that no one can know. Many Christians have gone through the same excruciating doubts, yet held on.

 

Imagine the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST:

 

A North Korean believer steps before Jesus. He was martyred for holding onto a belief he held so dear his life was given for it. He considered knowing Jesus to be the most valuable thing in life. He paid the ultimate price. 

 

A deconvert from the USA steps before Jesus. There was no chance he would be killed for his faith. At the most he might suffer insults. "You didn't answer my prayers so I concluded you didn't exist" he says. "And people in the church mistreated me. They were hypocrits!" So I turned back from you with good reason".

 

Imagine the shame on that day. It's almost indescribable. John mentions "shrinking back" on the day of Jesus' return in shame. Many deconverts, given the highest privileges, will shrink back in great shame. While others held true, and endured for their faith, they turned back for trivial reasons (though they claim these trivial trials were GREAT SUFFERING). THE North Korean believer would call your great suffering  NOTHING. He never turned back and was killed as a result. He will receive praise and a crown. What will the deconvert receive? I shudder.

 

Do you believe God keeps his promises?

[Fish153]

Walter---

I am not dodging. I started off the whole thread with two concurrent events happening which have monumental odds of ever occurring. This is "evidence" of a very unusual set of circumstances. If you demand physical evidence, all I can give are the scrolls themselves, and their discovery at almost the same exact time as Israel (through miraculous circumstances) became a nation once again.

 

If you REFUSE to accept this "evidence" what can I do? You're like the men who said to Columbus "prove that you will find something. We'll give you no money until you can PROVE to us the journey is worth it.

 

Of course Columbus could not PROVE anything. He had FAITH that his journey would produce results. His "evidence" was his expectation of success. Apparently the king and queen believed in him.

 

I am dodging nothing. I BELIEVE the coincidence of Israel and the scrolls is "evidence" of divine intervention. MANY accept this also. If you REFUSE to accept it, it doesn't make it untrue. For You it's untrue-- for many others it is evidence enough. 

[Fish153]

Darkbishop--

 

No-- I don't think it was that simple. I put in two major themes deconverts use: unanswered prayer and hypocritical Christians. "If God had answered my prayer, and shown me he exists I would not have deconverted" is a MAJOR theme.

 

The other major theme is OTHER CHRISTIANS and their hypocrisy and misunderstanding. Another major theme.

 

Sure-- it's far more complicated than that, but often when reading deconversion testimonies those two things are major themes.

 

One lady said she deconverted because she just couldn't teach children there was a hell. That was her main theme. Throw off your belief in Jesus, your faith and commitment because you find it hard to teach one doctrine?

 

I find many "testimonies" to actually be excuses for doing something they wish they could do anyway. Like a man wanting out of a marriage and finally finding a way out. He never loved her anyway.

[alreadyGone]

11 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Walter---

I am not dodging. I started off the whole thread with two concurrent events happening which have monumental odds of ever occurring...

 

Why?

 

 

The two things really have nothing to do with each other.

 

They just happened to occur in the same general region of the planet at about the same time in history.

 

Your use of a term like "monumental odds" is an emotional construct. There is no actual basis for calculating any 'odds' or probability in that regard.

[alreadyGone]

Fish 153 posted:

" I BELIEVE the coincidence of Israel and the scrolls is 'evidence' of divine intervention. MANY accept this also..."

 

--------------------------------------------------

And there you have it...

Use of the word "coincidence" with the word "evidence".

 

Think about this carefully..

You believe.

 

You are not intellectually honest enough to concede Walter's point...  that you opened this discussion asserting proof of something. Then you reversed that to be evidence, and now you admit it to be your emotionally-constructed belief, without open admission of same.

 

You are entitled to your belief.

Where we have taken issue with it is your assertion of object proof when in reality you have only your feelings about it.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

19 minutes ago, alreadyGone said:

 I BELIEVE the coincidence of Israel and the scrolls is "evidence" of divine intervention. MANY accept this also.

 

And there you have it...

Use of the word "coincidence" with the word "evidence".

 

Think about this carefully..

Struck me, too.  In ten pages we've gone from "PROOF" to "coincidence."  How sad.

[Fish153]

Alreadygone---

 

You are "brushing off" something that has FANTASTIC odds associated with it.

 

70 A.D.:  Temple destroyed, Jews dispersed.  70 A.D. : Dead Sea Scrolls are hidden by the Essenes. They are KEY to Jewish heritage, and hold the very Scriptures the Jews hold to be SACRED to them. One of the scrolls, the full book of Isaiah, teaches what the Jews believed in 70 A.D.  Had that record been altered? No one knows until these Scrolls are found.

 

1947: Dead Sea Scrolls are found.

1948: (May) Israel becomes a Nation again.

(2000 years later within one year of one another).

 

The scrolls have been hidden in MANY caves for 2000 years. No one has stumbled upon them. No one has investigated any of these caves for 2000 years!! And yet in 1947 an Arab Shepherd boy tosses a rock into a cave mouth and hears a jar break. For 2000 years that jar has been right there, at the front of the cave, but NO ONE has stumbled upon it. 2000 years. Think about it.

 

Once these Scrolls are found what do they prove? 1. The Jews had written scriptures back in 70 A.D.  2. The book of Isaiah from 70 A.D. is virtually identical to the Isaiah of modern times. There are spelling errors-- but the MESSAGE is EXACTLY the same.

 

This is NO COINCIDENCE. God "allowed" the scrolls to be "found" almost exactly at the same time Israel was reborn. Israel and the scrolls belong together. Each is evidence for the other.

 

These are astronomical odds Walter. 70 A.D. to 1947/1948 -- Israel and the Scrolls-- both "found and restored" at the exact same time (within months to a year of one another).

 

You can DENY it and that's fine. But it has convinced MANY that God is at work in this World and has a plan.

 

It took Jesus 33 Years to appear at His first Coming (his full life). I believe the birth of Israel (and confirmation by the scrolls) is the beginning of His Second Coming. I have no idea how many years his second coming will span. Who knows? But Israel is a DEFINITE sign that God is still at work-- maybe not to you--fine. But it us enough evidence for MANY. I am one of them.

[alreadyGone]

28 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

... Like a man wanting out of a marriage and finally finding a way out. He never loved her anyway.

 

How many times have you seen others proclaim that meeting someone to whom they are deeply attracted is "fate", and "meant to be" because they meet at a time they are looking for a mate, and feel so deeply about the other person, then in three years they feel the total opposite?

 

How many times have you seen such a person proclaim that mate to be given to them by God, then later be found guilty of murdering them?

 

 

[Fish153]

Red---

If I used the word "coincidence" I apologize. I mean "coincidence" in the minds of unbelievers. It is EVIDENCE without a doubt  to the believing.

[alreadyGone]

2 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Alreadygone---

 

You are "brushing off" something that has FANTASTIC odds associated with it.

 

...

 

None of what you posted provides any basis for actually calculating odds.

 

Tell me please, who exactly do you understand to be referenced by this term "Jewish heritage", and "the Jews" ?

[Hierophant]

1 minute ago, Fish153 said:

Alreadygone---

 

You are "brushing off" something that has FANTASTIC odds associated with it.

 

70 A.D.:  Temple destroyed, Jews dispersed.  70 A.D. : Dead Sea Scrolls are hidden by the Essenes. They are KEY to Jewish heritage, and hold the very Scriptures the Jews hold to be SACRED to them. One of the scrolls, the full book of Isaiah, teaches what the Jews believed in 70 A.D.  Had that record been altered? No one knows until these Scrolls are found.

 

1947: Dead Sea Scrolls are found.

1948: (May) Israel becomes a Nation again.

(2000 years later within one year of one another).

 

The scrolls have been hidden in MANY caves for 2000 years. No one has stumbled upon them. No one has investigated any of these caves for 2000 years!! And yet in 1947 an Arab Shepherd boy tosses a rock into a cave mouth and hears a jar break. For 2000 years that jar has been right there, at the front of the cave, but NO ONE has stumbled upon it. 2000 years. Think about it.

 

Once these Scrolls are found what do they prove? 1. The Jews had written scriptures back in 70 A.D.  2. The book of Isaiah from 70 A.D. is virtually identical to the Isaiah of modern times. There are spelling errors-- but the MESSAGE is EXACTLY the same.

 

This is NO COINCIDENCE. God "allowed" the scrolls to be "found" almost exactly at the same time Israel was reborn. Israel and the scrolls belong together. Each is evidence for the other.

 

These are astronomical odds Walter. 70 A.D. to 1947/1948 -- Israel and the Scrolls-- both "found and restored" at the exact same time (within months to a year of one another).

 

You can DENY it and that's fine. But it has convinced MANY that God is at work in this World and has a plan.

 

It took Jesus 33 Years to appear at His first Coming (his full life). I believe the birth of Israel (and confirmation by the scrolls) is the beginning of His Second Coming. I have no idea how many years his second coming will span. Who knows? But Israel is a DEFINITE sign that God is still at work-- maybe not to you--fine. But it us enough evidence for MANY. I am one of them.

 

If I was to offer you something similar in another religion, would you accept it? Muslims have Hadiths, sayings, and evidence similar to this, and I take it you do not find that evidence convincing.

 

Also - if God allowed these scrolls to be found, did he not overwrite someone's free will? I don't get why so many Christians get hung-up on free will. I assume it is a way to make Yahweh more palatable.

 

Here is something I want to discuss at its most basic level, why does Israel becoming a nation, and the discovery of the dead sea scrolls point to a God existing?

[Derek]

Not buying what you're selling, Fish... ;/

[alreadyGone]

What you are actually saying Fish is "to me, it seems impossible that these two occurrences in that region could not be connected and part of the same thing "

 

What you are unwilling to admit is that you originally posited this to be evident proof of something which you cannot substantiate other than repeating the effect it has on your emotional belief.

 

The phrase "confirmation bias" comes to mind here.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Red---

If I used the word "coincidence" I apologize. I mean "coincidence" in the minds of unbelievers. It is EVIDENCE without a doubt  to the believing.

Nah, bruh.  Words have meanings for a reason.  You don't get to redefine them at your whim and pleasure.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

36 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Darkbishop--

 

No-- I don't think it was that simple. I put in two major themes deconverts use: unanswered prayer and hypocritical Christians. "If God had answered my prayer, and shown me he exists I would not have deconverted" is a MAJOR theme.

 

The other major theme is OTHER CHRISTIANS and their hypocrisy and misunderstanding. Another major theme.

 

Sure-- it's far more complicated than that, but often when reading deconversion testimonies those two things are major themes.

 

One lady said she deconverted because she just couldn't teach children there was a hell. That was her main theme. Throw off your belief in Jesus, your faith and commitment because you find it hard to teach one doctrine?

 

I find many "testimonies" to actually be excuses for doing something they wish they could do anyway. Like a man wanting out of a marriage and finally finding a way out. He never loved her anyway.

Ok then. Well.take my deconversion testimony. It does not fit in your criteria. My son proclaimed he was athiest. I wanted to show him that there was proof of God's Existence. Or atleast that the Bible was true. So I began to look for archeological evidence. I figured as much Indian artifacts that we have found in the US there must be some evidence of the exodus from Egypt. Now keep in mind this is not the only thing that pushed me to deconvert. But it did open the door to a world of knowledge I never knew existed. 

 

Come to find out they had search for years for artifacts left behind from the exodus. But there is virtually nothing. So I ask you. Do you believe that the isrealite exodus happened as the Bible portrays? 

 

[Fish153]

Alreadygone--

Exactly. Many become "Christians" (like the seed thrown on stony ground). They leap for joy at the message, and "for a time believe". They THINK they are in love-- They believe they are TRUE disciples.

 

But shortly thereafter they realize they really don't believe-- or their belief is "eroding". They really "want out" but feel they can't leave. Guilt may keep them, or family, or whatever. But they REALLY wish they weren't "Christians" at all. They secretly want OUT but just don't know how to do it.

 

They are "stony ground hearers", not "good ground". Soon they begin to turn away. They have an internal fight because their consciences bother them SO badly. I also believe God is pleading with them not to go. But they refuse the way of faith-- they need "proof" and begin to demand that God provide it. More internal struggles continue, but God is not going to PROVE anything to them. He doesn't work that way. They slip more and more. Finally they leave. A "peace" seems to pervade their soul. They feel free now. They have FINALLY gotten free.  They begin to tell others how free they are and how it was all bulls$$t. They have partially succeeded in getting rid of the conviction of the Holy Spirit. They are FREE now.

 

However, just like their belief it is short-lived. Now comes the monumental task of convincing themselves that it really was all bull#$#. Something nags at them. That is why they join "boards" with others who have done the same thing. They need reassurance. They need to hear others mocking what they once believed to reinforce their stand. But when really alone they seriously wonder. "What if there really IS a God?". "What if the Bible is true?"

 

The last step is the ability to "throw off" even that small nagging of conscience. Now they can shout "F Jesus!!" And "F the Holy Spirit!". They have arrived at a seared conscience, and it will be near to impossible for them to ever repent.

 

How do I know this? Because I read the testimony of someone who thought they once believed, became apostate, and then returned to the faith and was then TRULY born-again. This is very rare. But nothing is impossible with God.

[midniterider]

12 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

You can DENY it and that's fine. But it has convinced MANY that God is at work in this World and has a plan.

 

It took Jesus 33 Years to appear at His first Coming (his full life). I believe the birth of Israel (and confirmation by the scrolls) is the beginning of His Second Coming. I have no idea how many years his second coming will span. Who knows? But Israel is a DEFINITE sign that God is still at work-- maybe not to you--fine. But it us enough evidence for MANY. I am one of them.

 

Christians dont get a lot of feedback from God so they set the bar pretty low as to a sign or miracle. I just dont find your 'proof' of God very compelling. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

8 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Something nags at them. That is why they join "boards" with others who have done the same thing. They need reassurance. They need to hear others mocking what they once believed to reinforce their stand. But when really alone they seriously wonder. "What if there really IS a God?". "What if the Bible is true?"

Wouldn't it be ironic if this statement was made by someone who goes to church every Sunday, reads his bible and prays every day, maybe even attends weekly prayer/bible study meetings?

[Hierophant]

7 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

...but God is not going to PROVE anything to them. He doesn't work that way.

 

Is that a fact. Hmmm, I remember God didn't "prove" himself to the patriarchs, the entire nation of Israel, and if you want to throw in modern theology of the trinity, Jesus walking around was God proving himself to multitudes.

 

Come off it. That argument is weak.