ISRAEL PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

[sdelsolray]

Poster Fish123 believes much of Abrahamic mythology is actually true, except when he doesn't.  From the evidence in this thread he garners his truth through two processes... (i) religious faith of the Hebrews 11:1 flavor and (ii) a variety of thinking errors (only a few of which have been displayed so far).

 

His apologetics are, for the most part, well-worn canards used daily by generic apologists.  However, he's been at this long enough to allow himself the ability to say, "I don't know", and to use some critical thinking to assist with possible answers or further inquiries.  Unfortunately, he avoids using that set of tools for most of his beliefs, which is puzzling. 

 

He is sensitive to criticism of his religion, and seems to take it personally, which has resulted in a mild case of Christian Martyr Complex.  He has developed a mixture of disdain and hubris for those who do not agree with his religious beliefs, although he hasn't yet devolved into a clinical holier-than-thou.

 

He writes well and has decent reading comprehension.  He is quick to choose which parts of others' posts he will respond to and which he will avoid despite repeated reminders.  I'm not sure how or why he distinguishes them, although I suspect he responds to the ones that he is familiar with and avoids the ones that would make him think anew.

 

It also appears he is starting to run out of material.  If he follows the pattern of so many other Christians of his particular variety who have visited here, he will eventually leave or purposefully get himself banned for Ex-C rule violations.

 

If he wants to learn some things he does not yet know, he may start asking questions, stop his incessant mere assertion and proselytizing behaviors and engage in meaningful discussions.

[Joshpantera]

7 minutes ago, sdelsolray said:

If he wants to learn some things he does not yet know, he may start asking questions, stop his incessant mere assertion and proselytizing behaviors and engage in meaningful discussions.

 

Wouldn't that be nice for a change? 

 

I agree, he's shown signs of intellect. He's not as far gone as the last batch. He did recognize Walter's point about "proofs." He did admit to the lack of evidence for the Exodus. Which others have gone to lengths to try and prove anyways despite their lack of evidence to substantiate the claim. He's ahead of that lot.

 

And as RP mentioned early on, I too suspect he's cased the joint out before or posted here previously and has some familiarity with us. From lurking, a different screen name previously, or something similar. IP address does check out. So he's ahead of the previous apologist's who flat out lied about their locations. 

 

A transparent and meaningful discussion would be much appreciated. Taunting newer deconvert's with gas lighting and assorted nonsense only makes him look like a smug little asshole. Regardless of whether some deconverts are ass hurt about their local churches or christianity. Being lied to and realizing it often = being ass hurt about it. So what? That's not much of a meaningful direction for the apologist to take. And he should have let it go pages ago already. Moving on to the more important issues which have been systematically ignored. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

46 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

I see no problem telling deconverted people that they were never real believers. Why should that bother them so much? I believe they never had a true change of heart. I think John 6 actually shows us this.

 

 

Because people were born and raised with a big lie (Christianity, Jesus) that screwed up their lives in many ways for many years. They did their best to believe and love Jesus but it turned out to just be a big lie. And then you come along and say they never were a real Christian. It's a big slap in the face from a total stranger who assumes he knows the intimate detail of someone's life that he met online a day or two ago. 

 

[midniterider]

53 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

MIDNITE--

Actually the Bible says the Lake of Fire (hell) was created for "the devil and his angels". It was not created for men. God is not evil.

 

Oh, so people who dont believe in Jesus dont end up in Hell (Lake of Fire)?

[Myrkhoos]

I am pretty sure our friend Mr Trout/Salmon/Carp here find these posts confirming his faith at least to some degree. But that seems his general operating program. Of everything confirming his belief. 

   It is quite interesting to behold. Maybe there's some sort of trolling element also? 

     By the way you say to us here we're going to Hell, as in eternity of conscious suffering, somebody here calls you an asshole, and somehow, you consider that FAR worse than your threats. Like I said, the operating system is "I am right"

   What you truly worship is YOURSELF under the "guise" of a believer and you shall have the same fate , if what you believe to be true, as those who come to Jesus and say they have done miracles in HIS name - Depart from Me as I do not know you.

   You say you do not believe we were Christians. Well, I don't think you are Christian NOW, I think you are just acting like  a run of the mill egolatriac that uses Christianity for his own self adoration. Basically a Gospel Pharisee. 

     

[Narrator]

Holy Shit, Batman. This thread really blew up!

 

9 minutes ago, Myrkhoos said:

I think you are just acting like  a run of the mill egolatriac that uses Christianity for his own self adoration. Basically a Gospel Pharisee.

 

Love it. Can I use this? So many it could fit.

Christianity seems to have its own brand of narcissism.

I remember denying I was like that... at times... when I was a Christian.

[Myrkhoos]

2 hours ago, midniterider said:

 

Because people were born and raised with a big lie (Christianity, Jesus) that screwed up their lives in many ways for many years. They did their best to believe and love Jesus but it turned out to just be a big lie. And then you come along and say they never were a real Christian. It's a big slap in the face from a total stranger who assumes he knows the intimate detail of someone's life that he met online a day or two ago. 

 

Fish is not Christian. Fish worships at the shrine of Fish. The worst Christian sin -self worship. He doesn't even have a minimum empathy for others, nothing about a superior self effacing humble love that is said to be a gift of the Holy Spirit. He didn't come here to convince anyone or to discuss. He came to brag and confirm his "greatness". 

[Myrkhoos]

2 minutes ago, Narrator said:

Holy Shit, Batman. This thread really blew up!

 

 

Love it. Can I use this? So many it could fit.

Christianity seems to have its own brand of narcissism.

I remember denying I was like that... at times... when I was a Christian.

Of course you can.

Anything I post here is copyright free :)).

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Walter--- No. Not just in the minds of believers. The people of Israel believe it whole-heartedly (even Jewish atheists cannot ignore the "odds" that this could happen). I think many people find this "coincidence"(the WORD the doubtful would use) a little hard to just "write off". It is a bit too strange to just ignore. It would be like walking into a new house for the first time, and then receiving the deed to the house in the mail the next day.

 

Thank you Fish.

 

If the evidence that links these two events does not reside just in the minds of believers, then please show it to us.

 

Fyi, doing that should not involve you repeating the claims that you've already made in this thread.

 

Those claims reside only in the minds of believers because the believers themselves make a mental connection between the two events.

 

Since you have discounted that, when you show us where this evidence is, you should not refer back to this mental connection.

 

So Fish, please show us where, outside of the believer's mind, this evidence is.

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

 

 

[alreadyGone]

I have a suspicion...

A Bedouin kid was supposedly the first to discover those ancient scrolls, in 1947.

 

Given the tribal nature and traditions of indigenous people in the region, isn't it quite possible that the scrolls had been known to be there over time by the locals, but were left undisturbed because of fears around disturbing ancient relics, or even disinterest and complacency?

 

Then beginning in 1948, when the modern nation of Israel was formed and Jewish people from other parts of the world settled in the region, there were far more people in that immediate region with far greater interest and motivation to investigate.

 

In other words, the fact of an influx of Jewish population into the region following the political control of the Allied powers created a situation which led to the discovery of the scrolls by people who were interested and motivated to disturb them.

People who had the luxury of being massively financed by money from the U.S. and G.B. to enable them to indulge in such exploration, where the local indigenous Bedouins had not had the same luxury of time, energy, and resources.

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 hours ago, Fish153 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong Red. But this place is designed for Christians to be placed at the mercy of the lions.

Who placed you here at our mercy?  Us or you?  You came here of your own accord; and you're as free to leave as you are to stay.  

[TheRedneckProfessor]

7 hours ago, Fish153 said:

MIDNITE--

Actually the Bible says the Lake of Fire (hell) was created for "the devil and his angels". It was not created for men. God is not evil.

No.  The bible says that hell will be cast into the lake of fire.   Revelation 20:14.  This is the second death.  So hell is not the lake of fire.  If you were a real christian you'd know this.  Hell was created for the devil and his fallen angels; but god opened it up for humans who won't stroke his ego, too.  Eventually, death, hell, the devil and his fallen angels, and 95% of humanity will all be thrown into the lake of fire.  Because god needs to destroy the evidence of his crimes against nature and humanity.  

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

7 hours ago, Fish153 said:

If they know they truly believed they can shrug it off can't they? Why should it offend them so deeply? They don't believe NOW right? Why should it matter to them if someone says they never really believed?

 

Your basically calling us liars. No one likes being called a liar. And for the formerly devout among us like myself. It meant something to us when we believed. Just like you it was our life. We lived it. And we believed. So for someone to just quote a couple scriptures and say "you didn't truly believe". Is extremely offensive. Because we did truly believe and we lived our lives in Godly manner. Striving to call heaven our home one day just like you do. I considered Jesus my personal best friend and felt the holy ghost speaking through me. Inspiring sermons, etc. Everything you describe of yourself, and More. Yet to you. I never truly believed. You cast that in my face even tho you never attended church with me as a believer, have never met me, have never heard me preach. People that knew me are surprised to hear I no longer believe. 

 

Does this help you understand why it's offensive? Some of us went to great lengths trying to keep the faith. Fearful of gods punishment. When you have believed so fervently in God, Jesus, and believed he loved you enough to die for you so you could be in heaven. Then base your life around that belief for (X) amount of time. It's offensive for someone to say, "well yeah, you never really had it" because we know our hearts that we did have it.  But when all the evidence is weighed. The Bible really can't stand up against it. The only reason you believe still, is because of a stubborn refusal to consider that your wrong. You already see biblical fallacies. You've admitted as much. With your flood belief and that your not a young earth creationist. You don't believe everything the Bible says and question parts of it. 

 

The difference between you and I is that you brush it off and say "I just don't know" while I see it for what it is. A fictional story that never happened. 

[nontheistpilgrim]

Fish: since it is Christmas let me ask you a question. What do you make of this....

In the Phrygo-Roman world of hundreds of years BC, people worshipped the god Attis, who was supposedly born of a virgin on December 25, died on a tree in the spring, rose on the third day, and was celebrated by followers with wine representing his blood and bread being his body. Attis was variously known as ‘The Logos’ and the ‘only begotten son’.

I did not know this (and there's lots more) when I was a practising Christian (note the words), my eyes were blinded. But now my eyes have been opened through research and study and, of course, with the help of others.

 

What about you? Are your eyes blinded?

[Fish153]

Sdelsoray has prayed to a milk jug and received an "answer" to his prayer. So he concludes God is just a figment of everyone's imagination.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Running low on ammo, there, fishy?

[Fish153]

Redneck---

No-- just making an observation. Deconvert arguments are convoluted and strange. I saw the "milk jug" argument in a video once. The dude said you can pray to a milk jug and get as many yes and no answers as praying to God. He didn't realize how stupid that sounds. What would you think if you saw a guy praying to a milk jug? Perhaps he needs some psychological help? It was an EXTREMELY STUPID argument masked as "intelligent and intuitive". This person who posted is just like that. He thinks by his many words and "intelligent" observations to be miles above any inferior Chtistian arguments that could be made. I think it's quite funny actually.

[◊ Krowb ◊]

@Fish153,

 

If you could please return to the matter at hand: establishing the reliability of the Bible.

 

Several members here are interested in the foundation of your beliefs.  @walterpthefirst kindly asks that since you claim your belief rests on more than faith, to provide evidence thereof.

 

The evidence you have chosen to present thus far has unintended consequences, such as also "proving" the truth of the Odyssey or the Koran.  You believe those other books are fiction.  So please continue to provide your best evidence.  Preferably evidence that is not also used by apologists of other, competing religions.

[Fish153]

DarkBishop--

I'm not calling anyone a liar. If someone starts talking about their recent vacation to Mars and I say "I don't think you've ever been to Mars" am I calling him a liar? No. I am simply stating the obvious. He may get offended, but I am stating what I KNOW to be true. The dude has never been to Mars despite his protests to the contrary.

[Hierophant]

@Fish153 I propose a challenge to you. And if you could do it, I will gladly convert back to Christianity. The challenge is to build a faith from the ground up, i.e., inductively using objective evidence, sound logic and reasoning.

 

The first question in this discovery would be how can we know there is a God, or God's, of any type. Furthermore, I would like to hear your definition of what a God or Gods are, prior to providing the evidence said God or Gods do exist.

[Fish153]

sdelsoray---

Me "sensitive"? LOL. I'm not the one who curses at people at the drop of a hat. The people on this board are FAR MORE "sensitive" than me. Geez-- say that you think they never really believed and you'd think their house just burned down! That is a good one!! Keep the jokes coming!

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

34 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

DarkBishop--

I'm not calling anyone a liar. If someone starts talking about their recent vacation to Mars and I say "I don't think you've ever been to Mars" am I calling him a liar? No. I am simply stating the obvious. He may get offended, but I am stating what I KNOW to be true. The dude has never been to Mars despite his protests to the contrary.

 

Fish. Your really bad about not comparing apples with apples in your responses. And yes you would be calling that person a liar. If I tell you I ate pancakes this morning and you tell me I don't believe you ate pancakes this morning. Then your calling me a liar. Your telling me, that in your mind, I'm not telling you the truth. 

 

41 minutes ago, Fish153 said:

Redneck---

No-- just making an observation. Deconvert arguments are convoluted and strange. I saw the "milk jug" argument in a video once. The dude said you can pray to a milk jug and get as many yes and no answers as praying to God. He didn't realize how stupid that sounds. What would you think if you saw a guy praying to a milk jug? Perhaps he needs some psychological help? It was an EXTREMELY STUPID argument masked as "intelligent and intuitive". This person who posted is just like that. He thinks by his many words and "intelligent" observations to be miles above any inferior Chtistian arguments that could be made. I think it's quite funny actually.

 

The milk jug argument actually has some merit. You think its ridiculous and funny because you believe in a God that answers prayers. So someone praying to a milk jug sounds understandably ridiculous. Because in your mind, you know a milk jug can't answer prayers. Which is true. But thats not the point. 

 

We believe that you praying to God is equally as effective as you praying to a milk jug. Because we KNOW the Christian God doesn't exist. Especially when it comes to prayer. The Christian God has made promises about prayer that are never kept. I'm sure you have prayed righteous and faithful prayers that were not answered. Such as praying for someone to be healed. Or for someone to turn to God that never has. 

 

My grandmother on my biological father's side prayed for all of her children to come to Jesus. This woman is one of the most devout and faithful women I know. My uncle and bio dad both died without giving their lives to Jesus. The only one left is my piece of shit aunt, who perpetually takes advantage of her Christian mother. 

 

I mean asking God to save your children would have to be the most respectable prayer that a Christian could pray right? Why wasn't her prayer answered? We've all read where God can harden and soften the hearts of men. Why didn't God soften her children's heart before death to accept Jesus? The bible says he can do it and Jesus even promises his believers that their prayers would be granted if they had faith.

 

This is where you insert your comment, "well your grandmother must not have enough faith". Don't go there please. It's insulting, you don't know my grandmother like I do. She is to this day 100 percent faithful even tho her God hasn't answered her prayers. Every time I talk to her she says, "I wouldn't be able to make it if it weren't for Jesus, he helps me every day." So she is faithful. 

 

That's not just her tho. I've known many many devout Christians that always seem like they never have God's favor. Something is always happening to them and God never seems to show up for them. But they keep believing anyway. They make up excuses just like you do. "Well maybe it's not God's will" "maybe he's waiting for the right time" " maybe it was just their time to go be with the lord" etc etc etc. Your God needs excuses for his obvious abscense. The milk jug is just a milk jug and everyone knows it. Atleast you don't have to figure out excuses for it. But you can get just as many prayers answered by praying to it as you can by praying to your God. 

 

 

[Fish153]

Hierophant--

You really want God to work on YOUR terms don't you? I can't take up your "challenge" because you are expecting everything to be "proven" before you accept it. But you see God works the opposite way. YOU say "if I see it I will believe it". JESUS says "Did I not say that if you believe you would see the glory of God?"  He says if you BELIEVE you will SEE. You can't have it YOUR way Hierophant. God does as He pleases. WE are the ones who must submit-- He doesn't submit to US.

[Fish153]

LOL darkbishop--

There is a HUGE difference between saying you ate pancakes this morning and saying you vacationed on Mars. Your arguments have no merit.

[alreadyGone]

@Fish153

I would appreciate an honest response to the question I've asked repeatedly..

 

In which written language did Moses record the account supposedly given him by God of the creation, of Adam and Eve and original sin, and of Noah's ark?

 

You may ignore this, but you cannot in honesty discount the significance of the question.