walterpthefirst Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 17 hours ago, Fish153 said: Walter--- No. Not just in the minds of believers. The people of Israel believe it whole-heartedly (even Jewish atheists cannot ignore the "odds" that this could happen). I think many people find this "coincidence"(the WORD the doubtful would use) a little hard to just "write off". It is a bit too strange to just ignore. It would be like walking into a new house for the first time, and then receiving the deed to the house in the mail the next day. Thank you Fish. If the evidence that links these two events does not reside just in the minds of believers, then please show it to us. Fyi, doing that should not involve you repeating the claims that you've already made in this thread. Those claims reside only in the minds of believers because the believers themselves make a mental connection between the two events. Since you have discounted that, when you show us where this evidence is, you should not refer back to this mental connection. So Fish, please show us where, outside of the believer's mind, this evidence is. Thank you. Walter. -------------------------------------------- Hello again Fish. Would you please show us where, outside of the believer's mind, this evidence is. Thank you. Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Alreadygone-- Well I GOOGLED it just as you can do also. I put "what language was the book of Genesis originally written in?" The first entry says "As others have pointed out, Genesis was originally written down in Biblical Hebrew, although parts of it may have been transmitted orally before it became our modern text". The DEAD SEA SROLLS version of Genesis was written in "Hebrew, with some fragments written in paleo-Hebrew, no longer used, and a few fragments in Aramaic" Why? What's the point. I'm no linguistic scholar so save your "aha's!" for someone else. Just a note: the Bible says that the world spoke one language until Babel. But I believe The Holy Spirit revealed to Moses what happened at creation. He may have been shown in visions, or taken back in time to record-- who knows? That's not that important to me. If God thought it was important to know EXACTLY HOW he created everything he would have done so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Walter-- If you expect me to find someone saying "It is a FACT that the birth of Israel and the finding of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS at the exact same time, 2000 years later, is PROOF of God's existence" you're not going to get it. My Thread would then read: PROVEN FACT FOR EXISTENCE OF GOD: ISRAEL AND THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS. As I mentioned, many Christians see the astronomical odds of this happening and believe. Many Jews believe it also. Many non-believers cannot set aside the rarity of such an event happening, and do admit the odds are staggering. What else can I say Walter? If you expect me to state this as FACT for the existence of God of course I cannot do that. All I asked in my thread was to CONSIDER the odds, and perhaps you may see the hand of God at work. If you don't accept that fine-- no problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 @Fish153 " I'm no linguistic scholar so save your "aha's!" for someone else." Nor am I a linguistic scholar.. Moses, if he was in fact an actual person, is accounted to have lived sometime as early as 2500 years ago, and many bible scholars say even earlier than that, as far back as 3000 years ago or more. But no one really knows, do they? We have only the lineage of all those begat-ed people detailed in the Old Testament to go on for that estimate, right? And even you have waffled a bit on the accounting of time in the Bible.. There is no honest basis to really know who lived exactly when, even the characters in the New Testament, correct? We all know that the accounting of time and chronology of the Old Testament is guesswork at best. Take a look at the rich detail describing those foundational events in the book of Genesis. Bear in mind that what is accepted in the bible is the supposed word of a man who supposedly lived in that time-frame of ~2500-3000+ years ago. He claims that God visited him and spent a pleasant afternoon telling him all these things. Then do a little real research on the early evolution of language, and specifically, written language. There is no basis on which to believe that the primitive cuneiform-based written languages known to exist at that time were nearly sufficient to express such detail with such specificity. You have accepted all your life that someone else, someone better educated than you has established the truth of Moses and his stories. And yet you had no idea until I asked the question in which form of written communication, in which early primitive written language old Moses could have recorded such things. It's a myth, Fish. An ancient myth propagated into modern times by people with the same agenda you are pushing. If anyone living today came to you and told you that God had personally appeared to them and told them a series of historical tales, what would be your reaction? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 25 minutes ago, Fish153 said: midnite-- Oh yes, God knows some will "choose" to go to the Lake of Fire despite his merciful call to them. But he did not create the Lake of Fire for man. You have to consider what is at stake midnite. We are finite-- we know SO LITTLE. We THINK we have it all figured out-- but we don't. Our knowledge is about as great as how far we can see into space with the naked eye. We see a minute area of space. It continues in all directions for trillions and trillions of miles. Our knowledge is NOTHING. Now, consider WHYJesus would need to die on a cross for our sins. There must be something WE DO NOT KNOW that is SO DEEPLY SERIOUS that Jesus had to come, assume human form, and die on a cross or we would BE LOST. I mean we would TRULY BE LOST IN A VERY REAL WAY. And by doing so Jesus opened a way for us to be saved simply by ACCEPTING what He has done for us. Deconverts and atheists are REJECTING AN INVITATION TO SALVATION. I am using CAPS only for emphasis. God came a LONG WAY, and went through immense suffering to provide the way back to God. And you are rejecting the invitation. I say this seriously: if you wind up in the Lake of Fire YOU will be responsible for it. You have free will. God has provided the door-- you just need to go through it. Yet you accuse God of being evil. You don't KNOW EVERYTHING. God is infinite and understands far morevthan we eever can. We need to humble ourselves and accept HIS WAY. Don't accuse God when you barely know anything about eternity. You know nothing about the extent of the Universe-- how can you really know anything about God except for what he tells us about Himself in the Word of God. God doesn't expect us to understand everything--He just expects us to believe Him and accept his way of salvation. . Thanks for the post, Fish. But I just don't believe any of what you're saying. And I'm not accepting Christian fear, shame or guilt today. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walterpthefirst Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 17 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Walter-- If you expect me to find someone saying "It is a FACT that the birth of Israel and the finding of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS at the exact same time, 2000 years later, is PROOF of God's existence" you're not going to get it. My Thread would then read: PROVEN FACT FOR EXISTENCE OF GOD: ISRAEL AND THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS. As I mentioned, many Christians see the astronomical odds of this happening and believe. Many Jews believe it also. Many non-believers cannot set aside the rarity of such an event happening, and do admit the odds are staggering. What else can I say Walter? If you expect me to state this as FACT for existence of God of course I cannot do that.e. no proble All I asked in my thread was to CONSIDER the odds, and perhaps you may see the hand of God at work. If you don't accept that fine-- no problem here. Fish, Can you not see what you are describing here? You are NOT describing any items of evidence that link the two historical events. You are describing different interpretations by different people - Christians, Jews, non - believers, etc. These interpretations do NOT exist anywhere but in the minds of the people in question. In the same way, when you asked us to consider the odds, you are NOT talking about any item of evidence. You are describing judgments that each of us make ONLY within our own minds. In your post you make NO reference to any evidence that links the historical events. Instead, you ONLY refer to what is happening in people's minds. So, I'll pose the question again, this time phrased in a slightly different way. Do the judgments / interpretations that believers make exist anywhere but in their own minds? Thank you. Walter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Krowb ◊ Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 51 minutes ago, Fish153 said: midnite-- Oh yes, God knows some will "choose" to go to the Lake of Fire despite his merciful call to them. But he did not create the Lake of Fire for man. You have to consider what is at stake midnite. We are finite-- we know SO LITTLE. We THINK we have it all figured out-- but we don't. Our knowledge is about as great as how far we can see into space with the naked eye. We see a minute area of space. It continues in all directions for trillions and trillions of miles. Our knowledge is NOTHING. Now, consider WHYJesus would need to die on a cross for our sins. There must be something WE DO NOT KNOW that is SO DEEPLY SERIOUS that Jesus had to come, assume human form, and die on a cross or we would BE LOST. I mean we would TRULY BE LOST IN A VERY REAL WAY. And by doing so Jesus opened a way for us to be saved simply by ACCEPTING what He has done for us. Deconverts and atheists are REJECTING AN INVITATION TO SALVATION. I am using CAPS only for emphasis. God came a LONG WAY, and went through immense suffering to provide the way back to God. And you are rejecting the invitation. I say this seriously: if you wind up in the Lake of Fire YOU will be responsible for it. You have free will. God has provided the door-- you just need to go through it. Yet you accuse God of being evil. You don't KNOW EVERYTHING. God is infinite and understands far morevthan we eever can. We need to humble ourselves and accept HIS WAY. Don't accuse God when you barely know anything about eternity. You know nothing about the extent of the Universe-- how can you really know anything about God except for what he tells us about Himself in the Word of God. God doesn't expect us to understand everything--He just expects us to believe Him and accept his way of salvation. . The amount of dissonance in this post caused me to chuckle out loud. As several on this thread keep asking, what, other than your personal experience and feelings, causes you to "know" such things about God, Jesus, and what they want? You reject the holy books of the Koran, the Torah (by itself), Book of Mormon, Vedic texts, and all the rest. Other than personal experience/faith, how do you KNOW your version of the Bible is correct? Why is it (insert your preferred denomination) God and not Judaism God or Mormon God? How do you know? Other religious members all have faith and personal experience, what makes yours more valid than theirs? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 He believes in Jesus and the bible because he believes in Jesus and the bible. It's 'correct' because he has decades of emotional (maybe social and financial) investment in it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nontheistpilgrim Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 Was I or was I not a true Christian? What do YOU think? (In case you missed it, I posted the question 59minutes ago.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, midniterider said: He believes in Jesus and the bible because he believes in Jesus and the bible. It's 'correct' because he has decades of emotional (maybe social and financial) investment in it. I would express it as: You believe in God because, the Bible. You believe in the Bible because, God. The man is entitled to his beliefs. I believed once also. And when I did so, I routinely avoided many of these same questions. Others, I hid from. They didn't fit my belief in an eternal God and the promise of eternal life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 23, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 23, 2021 @Fish153, why are the Buddhist and the Muslim absurd for talking to their imaginary friends, but you are not equally absurd for talking to yours? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrkhoos Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 So I'm done with this thread. I think 16 pages is enough for any lurkers coming by to make up their own minds. Anything more seems like feeding the distorted emotional cravings of someone pretty clearly self-absorbed. I have no interest in the worship of Fish153. Paradoxically, altough he thinks we were not true believers, I really don't think HE is a true believer in the Gospel of Christ. So, why even bother with a clear non-believer. :))). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 @Fish153, You have placed much emphasis on the perceived historical value of the Dead Sea Scrolls because they are known to physically exist, albeit with unknown actual provenance. Where is Moses' actual original manuscript? Who is known, or even purported to have last seen or held it? I don't know, but I'm betting the publishers of the KJV never saw it, nor did they know of anyone who did. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 2 hours ago, Fish153 said: When I state that deconverts were never real believers it is based on Scripture-- not my personal opinion. When you ask me to show compassion to deconverts it's like asking me to feel sorry for Judas. Judas went through extreme emotional torment for making the decision he made. But he was a traitor to MY MASTER. Have you forgotten that Jesus reportedly told Judas to "...go do what you must". That sounds like Judas was doing his part to carry out the "plan" for the crucifiction, which was necessary for your salvation (if you believe the Bible) So, Judas actually did you a favor!!! He made your salvation possible. He was doing what "god" (or some "holy" "spirit") told him to do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Alreadygone-- I think you may be missing the point here. The Scroll for ISAIAH the prophet is complete. Written 70 A.D. or before. When compared to today's version of Isaiah it is virtually identical. This means that this manuscript has continued UNCHANGED for 2000 years. God is proving to us that He has protected His Word. There may be small spelling errors-- but the same MESSAGE is there. The message read 2000 years ago is the SAME message today. This is part of the "miracle" I shared. God not only RESTORED His people to their land-- He PRESERVED the MESSAGE to His people for the same amount of time. And both were REVEALED one year from one another 2000 years later. Again-- feel free to NOT believe-- that's your choice. But when I see this (and many, many others) I see the hand of God at work. It doesn't matter if you don't believe it-- He will complete His will anyway. Saying "God doesn't exist" in no way stops Him from existing. Our denials cannot stop His will from being completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted December 23, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 23, 2021 @Fish153, why are the Buddhist and the Muslim absurd for talking to their imaginary friends, but you are not equally absurd for talking to yours? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyGone Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 All of which ignores that lacking any objective reason to credit Moses' tales of Genesis, in which are found the basis of the Christian faith, those other texts are only stories. I do understand that you are crediting the Dead Sea texts as confirmation of the texts which became the Bible. But those same stories were known and were propagated across the developing world for many centuries. You are assuming a great deal. Moreover, you are asserting your assumptions as truth, shared with many like-minded believers as they may be. Be well, gotta run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Weezer-- Jesus knew the heart of Judas and that he was dead set on betraying him. "Do what you must.." is an acknowledgement of free will. In other words " go do what you are set on doing-- I'm not stopping you-- you have free will". I will say this. I truly believe that Judas could have been forgiven if he truly repented. Peter burst into tears and felt great sorrow for his denial. He later jumped off a boat to swim frantically TOWARDS Jesus on the shoreline when he saw him. And he was fully restored by Jesus. Judas did the opposite. He grieved and sorrowed-- but only because he had done what he had done. He did not turn to God or repent. Jesus would have forgiven Him. Of course, we don't know as Judas hanged himself and "went to his own place". No-- Judas didn't do me any favors. Jesus KNEW beforehand Judas would betray him-- but he did not CAUSE him to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Alreadygone-- You, as many also on this board, will find a reason to reject anything put before you that "might" show the existence of God. It doesn't really matter what it is. You are dead set on rejecting anything that is not a PROVEN FACT in your mind. You will jump through hoops to avoid any concession that what you call "coincidence" might be the hand of a Being far greater than yourself. And I stress "in your mind". Everything must match YOUR STANDARD of what is acceptable or you reject it-- which is virtually anything I might say. lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator Hierophant Posted December 23, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 23, 2021 19 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Alreadygone-- I think you may be missing the point here. The Scroll for ISAIAH the prophet is complete. Written 70 A.D. or before. When compared to today's version of Isaiah it is virtually identical. This means that this manuscript has continued UNCHANGED for 2000 years. God is proving to us that He has protected His Word. There may be small spelling errors-- but the same MESSAGE is there. The message read 2000 years ago is the SAME message today. This is part of the "miracle" I shared. God not only RESTORED His people to their land-- He PRESERVED the MESSAGE to His people for the same amount of time. And both were REVEALED one year from one another 2000 years later. Again-- feel free to NOT believe-- that's your choice. But when I see this (and many, many others) I see the hand of God at work. It doesn't matter if you don't believe it-- He will complete His will anyway. Saying "God doesn't exist" in no way stops Him from existing. Our denials cannot stop His will from being completed. This is just the fallacy of confirmation bias Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator Hierophant Posted December 23, 2021 Super Moderator Share Posted December 23, 2021 11 minutes ago, Fish153 said: Weezer-- Jesus knew the heart of Judas and that he was dead set on betraying him. "Do what you must.." is an acknowledgement of free will. In other words " go do what you are set on doing-- I'm not stopping you-- you have free will". I will say this. I truly believe that Judas could have been forgiven if he truly repented. Peter burst into tears and felt great sorrow for his denial. He later jumped off a boat to swim frantically TOWARDS Jesus on the shoreline when he saw him. And he was fully restored by Jesus. Judas did the opposite. He grieved and sorrowed-- but only because he had done what he had done. He did not turn to God or repent. Jesus would have forgiven Him. Of course, we don't know as Judas hanged himself and "went to his own place". No-- Judas didn't do me any favors. Jesus KNEW beforehand Judas would betray him-- but he did not CAUSE him to do so. Would you like examples from the Bible that do not support free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Red-- I do not find the Buddhist or the Muslim "absurd" for praying to God. At least they are acknowledging there IS a greater being than themselves. I just believe they are not praying to the REAL God. "There is one mediator between God and man-- the man Christ Jesus". Jesus: "Except you believe that I AM He you will die in your sins". "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but THROUGH ME". But their actions are not absurd at all. I pray they find Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Fish153 said: No-- Judas didn't do me any favors. Jesus KNEW beforehand Judas would betray him-- but he did not CAUSE him to do so. The crucifiction was for forgiveness of your sins. If it had not happened, would you have forgiveness?? Was Judas part of making this happen? So, in a sense, he did you a favor. Can't you see how ridicilous this whole thing is? Read my testimony. It lays out a lot of these illogical actions by a mythical god. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish153 Posted December 23, 2021 Author Share Posted December 23, 2021 Hierophant-- That's fine-- continue to believe in your fallacies-- they are an easy out for you. I will believe in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ Weezer ◊ Posted December 23, 2021 Share Posted December 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Fish153 said: continue to believe in your fallacies-- they are an easy out for you. Exactly my message to you. Have a good day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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