Suffering for the Sins of the World

[alreadyGone]

5 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

...we still have the capacity to resist.

 

The Bible makes the point repeatedly that you in fact have very little capacity to resist.

The Bible further tells you that your capacity to resist is "as filthy rags".

 

The Bible tells us that God blames us for our very nature, while telling us repeatedly that He created us to be who and what we are.

 

If he was able to stitch-together an entire universe from atoms of hydrogen and carbon, would he then not understand the precise nature of the human creatures He created?

 

To say that God is all-knowing and all-powerful but yet we humans are responsible for being what we are is talking in circles.

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Ed, if god is omniscient, then he knew before planting the tree that Eve would eat the fruit.  He knew that in eating the fruit, evil, sin, and death would result.

 

But...

 

god also knew the little girl pictured below.  He knew what her name would be.  He knew what color her eyes would be.  He knew that she would enjoy playing with dolls and that she would dream of someday becoming a nurse and helping people.

 

And.. 

 

god also knew how old she would be the first time she was raped.  He knew how many times she would be brutally violated in her short life.  He knew exactly how many different ways she would be humiliated, beaten, starved, and coerced into things no civilized person can fathom.  

 

And god knew she would kill herself at the age of 12 because it was the only way she could escape the abject horror of the life that was forced upon her.

 

And god deliberately chose to plant the tree anyway.  Knowing full well and completely the consequences of doing so, knowing intimately the details of the atrocities that would ensue, god made the conscious and intentional decision to plant the tree.

 

Look at her, Ed.  Look into her eyes.  Give her a name.  And then tell me how god planting that tree was anything other than unabated, unadulterated evil.

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

That's not right...we still have the capacity to resist.

 

From my former perspective being that I did not see the father, son, and holy spirit as one entity. We believed they were 3 separate entities that shared the same mindset basically. They were in one spirit so to say. 

 

I picture Jesus watching all this play out in the garden. 

 

Jesus. 

Hey father, what are ya doing now?

 

God

Well. I just created man in our image and now I'm putting him in a beautiful garden. 

 

Jesus

Oh thats nice

 

God

Yeah..... but I'm also putting the tree of knowledge of good and evil there.

 

Jesus

But dad...... won't that seriously be bad if they eat of that tree.

 

God

Oh yeah..... really bad. But I'm gonna tell em not to eat it. 

 

Jesus

Really? Ok. Does that actually work

 

God

Nah the devil fucks it up.

 

Jesus

Ahhh shit dad. Just don't put the damn tree close to em. It'll be bad. They'll go burn with the devil in the end. 

 

God

Nah. I got a plan for that too.

 

Jesus

Oh really? Whats that?

 

God.

Your gonna die for them!

 

Jesus

Fuck!!!! This is bullshit dad!!! Why?

 

God

Cuz I said so!

 

Lmao  

 

DB

 

My kids always loved it when I said cuz I said so. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

3 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 

I just want to take this opportunity to point out that archeology has proven that mankind were hunter gatherers until about 12,000 years ago. Proving that the whole creation myth in the bible was written after the Neolithic revolution. 

 

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/development-agriculture

 

Homosapiens have been on earth for 200,000 years. Our primitive ancestors were on earth 2 million years ago. 

 

When you step outside of your indoctrination it makes sense that they recorded a creation that involved agriculture. Recorded history has only been the past 5,000 years. Humans had been gardening for 7,000 years before humans even had the ability to write it down, Or carve it into a tablet of stone. They could never have imagined the way humans truly were. In the beginning. 

 

DB

Just trying to keep it real for the viewers. 

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, Edgarcito said:

I need to stop a bit Walter, I have a good bit of work to achieve yet today.  Thx.

 

Ok, not a problem Ed. 

 

Do what you have to.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Walter.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

There is a legal term to describe god's action in planting the tree, Ed.  That term is "malice aforethought."  Malice aforethought is the mental state in which a person intends to commit an act which they know will kill, or otherwise endanger, human life.  There are 3 states of mind that are relevant to god's intent in planting the tree: intent to kill, intent to inflict serious bodily harm or injury, and depraved indifference toward human life.  Your god exhibited all three of these intents when he planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; and his omniscience is the most compelling, and damning, evidence against him.

 

Your god knew, before planting the tree, that the consequence of eating from it would be death.  He also knew that Adam and Eve would eat from it.  Knowing this, he still chose to plant the tree anyway; and in so doing, your god exhibited malice aforethought with intent to kill.

 

Your god knew that the result of Adam and Eve eating the fruit would be a fallen physical state, in which humans were physically vulnerable to flesh eating bacteria, cancers, crippling deformities, all manner of maimings and mutilations,  not to mention mutations, parasites that eat the eyes of children from the inside out, inhalation anthrax, trichinosis, and even jock itch.  Knowing this, your god still deliberately planted the tree; and in so doing,  your god exhibited malice aforethought with intent to inflict serious bodily harm or injury. 

 

Your god knew that the result of eating the fruit of the tree would be generation after generation of children starving in the streets, women suffering violence, abuse, and misogyny, young girls and boys raped, trafficked, and sold as sex slaves, wars, rumors of wars, famine, pestilence, and the very depths of despair and depression.  Yet, knowing all of this, your god still, with considered and deliberate intention, planted the tree anyway; and in so doing, your god exhibited malice aforethought with depraved indifference toward human life. 

 

Now, you keep wanting to misdirect and sidetrack the conversation with meaningless speculations about Adam and Eve and free will; but that's just your subconscious way of trying to run away and hide from the ugly and painful truth that is staring you square in the eye and that you don't want to face. 

 

And the plain truth is that, the god of the bible created evil and inflicted it upon humanity with malice aforethought involving the intent to kill, the intent to inflict serious bodily harm or injury, and depraved indifference toward human life.  But the god you believe in cannot possibly exist; and neither can the god of the bible.  Because there is simply no way he is what the bible describes him as.  He cannot be both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, otherwise evil would not exist.  And he cannot be omniscient without also being completely culpable in the existence of evil.  These things we know, Ed.  Without speculation. 

[Joshpantera]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

But the god you believe in cannot possibly exist; and neither can the god of the bible.  Because there is simply no way he is what the bible describes him as.  He cannot be both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, otherwise evil would not exist.  And he cannot be omniscient without also being completely culpable in the existence of evil.  These things we know, Ed.  Without speculation. 

 

It's mind boggling to me, personally, to imagine this level of cognitive dissonance.

 

We're talking CD to the level of people pointing out to you, drawing detailed maps, with graphic illustration, and very descriptive terminology - how and why these beliefs are not even possibly true. They're self-contradicting to the point of being completely off the map as possible truth. 

 

And yet, here we are again. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

2 hours ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

Your god knew that the result of eating the fruit of the tree would be generation after generation of children starving in the streets, women suffering violence, abuse, and misogyny, young girls and boys raped, trafficked, and sold as sex slaves, wars, rumors of wars, famine, pestilence, and the very depths of despair and depression.  Yet, knowing all of this, your god still, with considered and deliberate intention, planted the tree anyway; and in so doing, your god exhibited malice aforethought with depraved indifference toward human life. 

 

The Adventist church raised us with a pre-packaged apologetics to all of this. Which is that sin had never happened before on a created planet like this and god had to allow it to fully play out, for sake of all the angels and people on other planets watching - people who did pass their test in their garden of Eden's. This is clearly extra biblical. But I didn't know that as a kid. I assumed that it was biblical. 

 

So after sin runs it natural course, and it's proven to everyone watching that gods judgement to poof sin out of existence is a just one, then it can be done with and never return. Because if it pops up again everyone will know where it leads, and god can just wipe it out immediately. But not until it's been allowed to run its natural course. 

 

I was raised on that shit!!!

 

That was my worldview as a child and early teen. And it's no less ridiculous than any other form of apologetics!!!!

 

It's completely extra biblcial, for starters, so it doesn't even really qualify as a christian belief in the mainstream sense. And even if it were true, it's incredibly stupid. So what if some idiot on another planet thought that god was unfair for exterminating sin the minute it popped up. The alternative is to allow all of this brutality for millennia on end instead of letting some jack off on another planet, that doesn't get it, feel ass hurt about the decisions making?

 

Children being raped and murdered on repeat cycle over and over again, lest some fucking moron from another planet, in some other garden of Eden, who didn't eat the forbidden fruit, think god isn't fair unless he lets sin completely play out? So god does allow it play out just to keep people from making accusations about his fairness? How fair is it to everyone being stoned to death, raped, enslaved, beaten, murdered, and everything else listed????

 

Dumbasses....

 

 

 

 

[alreadyGone]

Josh,

 

I had no idea such insane belief(s) existed in nominally Christian churches.

 

But then, when viewed alongside the snake-handlers' beliefs, the Calvinists' beliefs, the Mormons..

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

12 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

Josh,

 

I had no idea such insane belief(s) existed in nominally Christian churches.

 

But then, when viewed alongside the snake-handlers' beliefs, the Calvinists' beliefs, the Mormons..

 

Oh, you would be surprised how some churches incorporate apologetics into their teachings. 

 

I'm assuming the Adventist belief that Josh was talking about came from one of Ellen G whites visions or William millers teachings. 

 

Take a good look at the latter day saints or the Jehovas witness. They all have some twist of scripture or some prophets vision that clarifies some of the questions that lead us out of the church. 

 

The church i was ordained a bishop in. (Church of God of the gospel assembly) believed that the the two stories of creation in genesis were separate. In one God created multiple people and told them to populate the earth. This explained how Cain found a wife in the land of nod.  In the other he created Adam and eve. He set them apart. He chose them and gave them the first commandment. Not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. And the tree was actually a man. Who was teaching this knowledge. And they twist a of scripture all over the Bible to come to those conclusions. They also believe that there were more than just Noah's family on the ark. And much more. They definitely don't follow the main stream in their teachings.

 

But its really all super twisted apologetics to get around all the fallacies of the Bible. Just like Ed is doing now to get around the truth with RNP. 

 

Edited: I put Lot in place of Cain. My apologies. After Cain killed Abel he went to the land of nod and found a wife. Up to that point in genesis there was Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel. So the question is. How did Cain find a wife when Noone else was on earth. Hence the apologetics I mentioned in my old church. 

 

Hey guys. I know yall were probably like. Lot didn't go to nod. Feel free to correct me LoL. I was half asleep when I wrote that. 

[midniterider]

10 hours ago, alreadyGone said:

Josh,

 

I had no idea such insane belief(s) existed in nominally Christian churches.

 

But then, when viewed alongside the snake-handlers' beliefs, the Calvinists' beliefs, the Mormons..

 

 

Hey, let's ask Ed if he would do those things in Mark 16:18.... I bet he would. He trusts Jesus with his whole being.

[walterpthefirst]

Edgarcito,

 

I've been thinking hard about our discussion in this thread and perhaps this might help you understand where the responsibility (and fault) lies in Eden.  You're from Texas so I've no need to explain to you about rattlesnakes and how people have died from being bitten by them.  Now please put yourself into this scenario.

 

 

You have two very young, innocent and vulnerable children and you know that if a rattler came into your garden it could do them harm.  As a loving, intelligent and resourceful father with deep pockets you could protect your children by encircling your garden with a 100% effective snake-proof fence.  By doing that your children would 100% safe from all harm.

 

But you don't do that.

 

You don't warn your children about the clear and present danger of these rattlesnakes and besides, they are too young and naïve to understand what these things are, how these snakes could hurt them and they don't understand what death is either.  The responsibility for their safety lies exclusively with you.  Not with your children and not with anyone else.  This is down to you.  Only you.  YOU.

 

One day you see that a rattler is in your garden and is gliding swiftly and silently towards your little girl.  She is in immediate danger.  If you don't do something quickly the snake will harm her.  You only have a short time to act.

 

But you don't do anything.

 

She sees the snake but doesn't understand how dangerous it is and she lets it get right up close to her.  It's getting ready to strike.  You only have seconds to act and save her from harm and death.

 

But you still don't do anything.

 

The snake bites her!  You could still intervene and stop it from injecting too much venom into her.

 

But you do nothing at all.

 

 

Now let's transfer this over to what happened in Eden.  Unlike you god knew in advance that Satan intended to harm Adam and Eve.  But, like you he had the resources, the opportunity and the means of fully protecting his vulnerable children from harm.  Like you he did nothing to protect them.

 

Like you, god saw Satan approaching his daughter Eve in the form of a serpent and like you he had the opportunity to protect her from harm.  Once again, like you, god did nothing to protect her.

 

Like you god saw that Eve was unaware of the danger she was in, just as you saw that your daughter was unaware of the danger she was in from the rattlesnake.  Like you, god still had the time and the opportunity to protect Eve from harm.  Once again, like you, god did nothing to protect her.

 

Just as you saw the rattler get within striking distance of your daughter, so god saw Satan about to speak to Eve.  Like you, if god had reacted quickly enough he could have protected his daughter from harm.  And like you, god did nothing.

 

Just as you saw the snake bite and still had time to intervene, so god had time to cut short Satan's lies and save Eve from the harm Satan intended to do her.  And just as you did nothing before it was too late, so god did nothing before it was too late.

 

 

Now we come to the questions, Edgarcito. 

 

In your garden in Texas who was responsible for keeping your daughter safe from harm?

 

In the garden of Eden who was responsible for keeping Eve safe from harm?

 

In your garden in Texas who's fault was it that your daughter came to harm?

 

In the garden of Eden who's fault was it that Eve came to harm?

 

 

Please answer these questions.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Had to edit my post from last night. I put Lot in place of Cain on accident. Its fixed now. Sorry about that. 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

There is a flaw in your analogy, @walterpthefirst.  According to the story, Ed gave his daughter the freedom to not get bitten by the diamondback; but she rejected that freedom and got bitten of her own choice.  It doesn't matter that, in her naïve innocence, she had no way of comprehending that freedom or what the loss of it might entail.  Ed told her, "Don't get snake bit"; and, surely, that is enough to absolve him.  Free will, after all.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

There is a flaw in your analogy, @walterpthefirst.  According to the story, Ed gave his daughter the freedom to not get bitten by the diamondback; but she rejected that freedom and got bitten of her own choice.  It doesn't matter that, in her naïve innocence, she had no way of comprehending that freedom or what the loss of it might entail.  Ed told her, "Don't get snake bit"; and, surely, that is enough to absolve him.  Free will, after all.

 

I see the point you're making Prof, but there's something in Genesis you are overlooking.

 

God's warning was given only to Adam because at that time Eve didn't exist.  She was made later on from Adam's rib after no suitable helper for Adam was found among the animals. Adam then passed god's warning (in a garbled way) on to Eve. 

 

So, returning to my analogy, Ed doesn't tell his daughter, "Don't get snake bit."  Instead, he tells his equally naïve and innocent boychild to tell his sister, "Don't get snake bit."  But the boy garbles the message, leaving Ed's daughter confused about what Ed actually meant.  She's never seen a snake and doesn't understand that its bite can harm her.  Nor does she understand what death is, so she can't understand that the snake's venom can kill her.

 

Only after this game of Chinese Whispers... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers ...in his Texas garden is Ed absolved of any and all responsibility for the care of his children.  He's done enough by not telling the girl, but telling the boy.  So, if the girl does get snake bit and dies it won't be Ed's fault - it'll be the boy's.

 

Or the snake's fault.

 

But not Edgarcito's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

5 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

He's done enough by not telling the girl, but telling the boy.  So, if the girl does get snake bit and dies it won't be Ed's fault - it'll be the boy's.

 

Or the snake's fault.

 

But not Edgarcito's.

That sounds premeditated.  Almost as if Ed were planning the girl's injury with malice aforethought. 

[walterpthefirst]

2 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

That sounds premeditated.  Almost as if Ed were planning the girl's injury with malice aforethought. 

 

Well, why do you think Satan cunningly selected Eve as his target and not Adam, Prof?

 

Because he knew that god made Eve as the weaker vessel and so she was the softer target for his lies and was easier to deceive.

 

 

1 Peter 3 : 1 - 7

 

1 Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behaviour of their wives, 

2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 

3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewellery or fine clothes. 

4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 

5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 

6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

 

 

Returning to the Texas garden analogy, that would be like Ed knowing with malice aforethought that his daughter was weaker and more vulnerable than his boy to the effects of the rattlesnake's venom. 

 

But any harm coming to her still wouldn't have been Ed's responsibility or fault.

 

The girl herself, the boy or the snake.

 

But never Edgarcito's!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

So, it would appear that Ed's plan all along was to let the girl get bitten and have someone else take the blame.  I wonder if maybe Ed might have purposefully designed his garden with the specific intention of attracting the diamondback.  Maybe he planted a specific plant that he knew the adder could not resist--jasmine, or rosemary, for example; or maybe a fruit tree of some kind. 

[walterpthefirst]

9 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

So, it would appear that Ed's plan all along was to let the girl get bitten and have someone else take the blame.  I wonder if maybe Ed might have purposefully designed his garden with the specific intention of attracting the diamondback.  Maybe he planted a specific plant that he knew the adder could not resist--jasmine, or rosemary, for example; or maybe a fruit tree of some kind. 

 

Well, that's possible, Prof.

 

But before entertaining that possibility I'd like to hear what Edgarcito's answers are to to my questions.

 

 

In your garden in Texas who was responsible for keeping your daughter safe from harm?

 

In the garden of Eden who was responsible for keeping Eve safe from harm?

 

In your garden in Texas who's fault was it that your daughter came to harm?

 

In the garden of Eden who's fault was it that Eve came to harm?

 

 

Please answer Edgarcito.

 

 

[freshstart]

On 9/11/2022 at 11:20 AM, Edgarcito said:

I'm not sure why this one issue seems to be the icon of evil for you M, or the rest of you.  Why does this one represent the pinnacle of injustice.

I find it hard to believe that this is so difficult to understand. Outside of the Christian mindset, children are generally considered the most innocent of all humans and most people find atrocities against children to be the most heinous and loathsome. Furthermore, most parents would give their lives to save their child from such a despicable crime. I guess that is hard to fathom when you believe all children are born deserving to go to hell.

How is that you can not see child sex slavery as the "icon of evil?"

Its interesting that you take every opportunity to dodge the questions around this topic, yet accuse others of deflecting. 

I don't think anyone is saying you're evil. We're saying that the Christian god is far less compassionate than most of the humans who invented him for worship.

[walterpthefirst]

As well as the passages in Jude and 1 Peter that describe god confining fallen angels in darkness until judgment day, there are also these verses from Revelation 20.

 

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 

2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 

3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

 

So, this is further biblical evidence that god could have protected Adam and Eve from harm - if he had wanted to.

 

But he didn't do it.

 

God left his vulnerable and innocent children at the mercy of the dragon.

 

Thank you,

 

Walter.

[midniterider]

10 hours ago, freshstart said:

I find it hard to believe that this is so difficult to understand. Outside of the Christian mindset, children are generally considered the most innocent of all humans and most people find atrocities against children to be the most heinous and loathsome. Furthermore, most parents would give their lives to save their child from such a despicable crime. I guess that is hard to fathom when you believe all children are born deserving to go to hell.

How is that you can not see child sex slavery as the "icon of evil?"

Its interesting that you take every opportunity to dodge the questions around this topic, yet accuse others of deflecting. 

I don't think anyone is saying you're evil. We're saying that the Christian god is far less compassionate than most of the humans who invented him for worship.

 

It's rather interesting to read about the 'morality' of Christians. God is the untouchable criminal that they praise and live vicariously though. Does Ed really condone child slavery? He sees evil as good. Shrugs. We know that some evangelical Christian sects would rather follow their kooky and harmful bible rules if society didnt have societal laws to prevent them from doing so. 

 

I guess the 700 names of Baptist preachers as well as countless catholic priests who have been named (or mentioned or shuffled to other churches) in child sex assault or lewdness cases are just doing what God allows (someone mentioned this previously I think...I'm borrowing it for the moment).

 

Christian logic: There will be some 'good feeling' and greater good if God allows human criminals to rape children. It works hand in hand with child sex offending youth pastors and priests. Just ignore the well known level of recidivism and hide away our Godly sex offender from the police so he can offend again...and again. But I digress.

 

To be fair to Ed, I think he just avoided directly discussing this human trafficking 'icon of evil' and tried to sidetrack us with Adam and Eve again for the upteenth  time. And the less egregious drunk driver homicide scenario as well. I could be wrong though. But in my mind Ed indirectly gave the green light to God allowing child rape to continue in the form of human trafficking. 

 

That's the God he praises. That's a good Christian!

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

11 hours ago, freshstart said:

 

I don't think anyone is saying you're evil. We're saying that the Christian god is far less compassionate than most of the humans who invented him for worship.

 

I'm not sure Ed believes any of the stuff he is spouting.  Is it possible he is simply a master at playing us??

[◊ Weezer ◊]

9 minutes ago, midniterider said:

 

It's rather interesting to read about the 'morality' of Christians. God is the untouchable criminal that they praise and live vicariously though. Does Ed really condone child slavery? He sees evil as good. Shrugs. We know that some evangelical Christian sects would rather follow their kooky and harmful bible rules if society didnt have societal laws to prevent them from doing so. 

 

I guess the 700 names of Baptist preachers as well as countless catholic priests who have been named (or mentioned or shuffled to other churches) in child sex assault or lewdness cases are just doing what God allows (someone mentioned this previously I think...I'm borrowing it for the moment).

 

Christian logic: There will be some 'good feeling' and greater good if God allows human criminals to rape children. It works hand in hand with child sex offending youth pastors and priests. Just ignore the well known level of recidivism and hide away our Godly sex offender from the police so he can offend again...and again. But I digress.

 

To be fair to Ed, I think he just avoided directly discussing this human trafficking 'icon of evil' and tried to sidetrack us with Adam and Eve again for the upteenth  time. And the less egregious drunk driver homicide scenario as well. I could be wrong though. But in my mind Ed indirectly gave the green light to God allowing child rape to continue in the form of human trafficking. 

 

That's the God he praises. That's a good Christian!

 

 

Thanks.  That is an excelent explaination of Christian rationale and denial of reality.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

30 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Is it possible he is simply a master at playing us??

I think the term is "baiting".  He is "baiting" us.  He is a master "baiter."

 

bait

/bāt/

verb

gerund or present participle: baiting

1.

deliberately annoy or taunt (someone).

"the other boys reveled in baiting him about his love of literature"

2.

prepare (a hook, trap, net, or fishing area) with bait to entice fish or animals as prey.

"she baited a trap with carrots and corn"