Faith, Logic, and Freedom

[walterpthefirst]

8 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Yes I do.  Scripture says so.

 

Malachi 3 : 6    “I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

 

Romans 9 : 13    Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

Put those two together and god has always hated Esau.

 

 

And before I explain anything further to you, would you please be so good as to explain something to me?

 

 

So, why did god hate Esau before he sinned?

 

Would you please care to explain?

 

I have softened the tone of my request to make it more polite and courteous.

 

Hopefully Edgarcito will now respond.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

Hopefully Edgarcito will now respond.

I'm certain he will answer soon.  After all, if he can prove the existence of forest pixies with his above-canine intelligence, then surely he should be able to explain why a supposedly all-loving god would just randomly hate people for no apparent reason.  

[Edgarcito]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

I have softened the tone of my request to make it more polite and courteous.

 

Hopefully Edgarcito will now respond.

 

 

Thank you.

 

Walter.

 

Softening your tone doesn't change what's behind the curtain.  

[Edgarcito]

13 minutes ago, TheRedneckProfessor said:

I'm certain he will answer soon.  After all, if he can prove the existence of forest pixies with his above-canine intelligence, then surely he should be able to explain why a supposedly all-loving god would just randomly hate people for no apparent reason.  

Guess we will just have to find out post death how it all plays out.  You know where I stand.  One of these days I'll get interested in the Bible again and come back to check the status....but nothing is fruitful here and Dave isn't paying me, so there you are....a rabbit screw as you illustrated.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

7 minutes ago, Edgarcito said:

Guess we will just have to find out post death how it all plays out.  You know where I stand.  One of these days I'll get interested in the Bible again and come back to check the status....but nothing is fruitful here and Dave isn't paying me, so there you are....a rabbit screw as you illustrated.

Still wanna talk about generational sin?

[Edgarcito]

4 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Still wanna talk about generational sin?

Sure.

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, Edgarcito said:

Softening your tone doesn't change what's behind the curtain.  

 

Then, using logic, let me show you something that lurks behind the curtain, Edgarcito. 

 

We can do this by comparing two passages from scripture.  We already know from the books of Malachi and Romans that god hated Esau.  We already know from the same books that god never changes his mind. So, he's always hated Esau.

 

Now let's look at Galatians 5 : 16 - 25.

 

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 

17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 

20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 

21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 

23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 

25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

 

But wait a minute!  There's something not quite right here.  There's a contradiction.

 

If god the Father hates Esau then why don't the other two members of the Trinity also hate Esau? 

 

Hatred is one of those sinful passions and desires of the flesh that have no place in the kingdom of god.  Hatred is contrary to the Holy Spirit.  Hatred is not one of the fruit of the spirit.  And what about Jesus Christ?  Those who belong to him have crucified (put to death) their sinful passions like hatred.  There can't be any hatred in Jesus if he wants those who belong to him to cease hating.  Hatred cannot be part of Christ's nature.  If it were, to become more Christ-like would mean to carry on hating. Clearly not!

 

By hating Esau god the Father has divided the Trinity, put himself at odds with his son Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

 

So, tell me now Edgarcito.  Do you like what lurks behind the curtain?

 

 

Walter.

 

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”  Luke 14:26

[RankStranger]

On 10/25/2022 at 9:10 AM, RankStranger said:

Don't worry Professor.  Jesus will set things right with magic 

 

Damn right He will.

 

 

On 10/25/2022 at 10:48 AM, RankStranger said:

 

And how can I fault you for that?  We've all been there.

 

I get that you're unable/unwilling to call anything from biblegod 'evil'.  But is that an honest take on it?  Do you honestly believe that bashing babies' skulls against the rocks is not evil?  Or that torturing the VAST majority of humans for all eternity is not evil?  Remember, Jesus will know if you're being dishonest.  And he'll burn you in hell for it.

 

The way I see it, you're damned either way if you take the bible literally.

 

Ok, so Bible-God does evil stuff.  Says so right there in Isaiah 45:7

 

So what?  Are you gonna cry about it?  Evil shit happens whether you believe in God or not.  Doesn't particularly matter what you think about that, or who you blame for it... it's going to happen anyway.

 

 

On 10/25/2022 at 11:14 AM, RankStranger said:

 

Grace is an awesome concept.

 

Basically anything in the bible that I think it shitty, I just don't care because Grace will take care of it 

 

 

 

At least you understand this much.

 

 

On 10/25/2022 at 11:51 AM, RankStranger said:

 

How many Good Christians have you misled with your dishonest, boot-licking pseudo-Christianity?

 

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes either Bud.

 

Calm the fuck down... there's clearly something wrong with you.

 

 

[RankStranger]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:43 PM, RankStranger said:

Let's say you're given a choice:  Do as you are commanded, particularly when it makes no sense at all... or you will be tortured for all eternity.

 

Is that a free choice?

 

Nope.  What's your point?

 

On 10/14/2022 at 3:02 PM, RankStranger said:

Nope, not interested in this sort of semantics game.

 

Yeah, you are.  You wouldn't be posting about this otherwise.

[walterpthefirst]

Ok, so Bible-God does evil stuff.  Says so right there in Isaiah 45:7

 

So what?  Are you gonna cry about it?  Evil shit happens whether you believe in God or not.  Doesn't particularly matter what you think about that, or who you blame for it... it's going to happen anyway.

 

 

 

I'm not quite following, RS.

 

Wouldn't it particularly matter to you who was responsible for causing you and/or your family to suffer?

 

 

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

1 hour ago, RankStranger said:

 

Nope.  What's your point?

 

 

Yeah, you are.  You wouldn't be posting about this otherwise.

 

Rank, are you talking to yourself on purpose?

[RankStranger]

6 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

Rank, are you talking to yourself on purpose?

 

Yes, I do that a lot.

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

I'm not quite following, RS.

 

Wouldn't it particularly matter to you who was responsible for causing you and/or your family to suffer?

 

 

If a human was responsible, then yes it would matter to me who is responsible.

 

If the universe was responsible though... then it doesn't matter who I blame.  It just is.

 

And seeings how God is necessarily greater and more mysterious than the universe, much the same reasoning applies.  God, whatever He is, just is.

[walterpthefirst]

6 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

 

If a human was responsible, then yes it would matter to me who is responsible.

 

If the universe was responsible though... then it doesn't matter who I blame.  It just is.

 

And seeings how God is necessarily greater and more mysterious than the universe, much the same reasoning applies.  God, whatever He is, just is.

 

But doesn't the god of the bible makes his moral choices in the fullest possible knowledge of their outcomes?

 

Which would mean that he is responsible for them in the fullest possible way?

 

Unlike humans, who do not have his advantages of perfect foresight and all knowledge?

 

So, if god does do evil, then how can he be excused responsibility for his acts of evil?

 

Surely he should be fully responsible for them and not be excused from that responsibility just because he's god?

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

But doesn't the god of the bible makes his moral choices in the fullest possible knowledge of their outcomes?

 

That's what I've been told.  Do we know that that's true though?  I'm not sure how much any of us really know about the creator of the universe.  Unlike certain Baptists, I see no reason to believe that He would be constrained by a book.

 

 

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Which would mean that he is responsible for them in the fullest possible way?

 

Ok, apparently that's your conclusion.

 

 

Quote

Unlike humans, who do not have his advantages of perfect foresight and all knowledge?

 

 

Right.

 

 

Quote

So, if god does do evil, then how can he be excused responsibility for his acts of evil?

 

 

 

I dunno.  I'd suggest you ask Him.  Seriously, try it and you'll get an answer.  Let me know what answer comes.

 

 

Quote

Surely he should be fully responsible for them and not be excused from that responsibility just because he's god?

 

If you want to try and hold Him accountable, I'm not here to stop you.  I don't think you'll get very far with it though.

 

Also, sorry I was a dick yesterday.  It was a bad day.

[walterpthefirst]

Posted 7 hours ago

  8 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

But doesn't the god of the bible makes his moral choices in the fullest possible knowledge of their outcomes?

That's what I've been told.  Do we know that that's true though?  I'm not sure how much any of us really know about the creator of the universe.  Unlike certain Baptists, I see no reason to believe that He would be constrained by a book.

 

 

Then you don't accept the bible as god's Word?  

 

 

  Quote

Which would mean that he is responsible for them in the fullest possible way?

Ok, apparently that's your conclusion.

 

No.  That sentence was framed as a question to you.  It was asked in the context of who was responsible for causing suffering by doing evil.   If you believe that god knows all things and makes moral choices, then would he not be fully responsible for causing suffering because he creates evil, as per Isaiah 45:7?

 

So, would you please answer the question, RS?

 

 

 

  Quote

Unlike humans, who do not have his advantages of perfect foresight and all knowledge?

 

Right.

 

 

  Quote

So, if god does do evil, then how can he be excused responsibility for his acts of evil?

 

I dunno.  I'd suggest you ask Him.  Seriously, try it and you'll get an answer.  Let me know what answer comes.

You may not know, but do you care?  Do you care about who is responsible for creating evil and causing suffering?

 

 

 

  Quote

Surely he should be fully responsible for them and not be excused from that responsibility just because he's god?

 

If you want to try and hold Him accountable, I'm not here to stop you.  I don't think you'll get very far with it though.

 

The bible holds him accountable.  Do you have any comment about that - apart from claiming that god doesn't need to be bound by its pages?

 

Also, sorry I was a dick yesterday.  It was a bad day.

 

 

Apology accepted.

[RankStranger]

Quote

Then you don't accept the bible as god's Word? 

 

Every jot and tittle?  No.  Absolutely not.  I've been more than clear about that.  That being said, whatever its flaws (and they are many), this man-made book is kinda all we have in terms of God's Word.  IMO any Christian has no choice but to read between the lines- whether they are willing to acknowledge that or not.

 

Do you think this disqualifies me as a Christian?  Millions of Christians would disagree with you on that point... though millions of fundamentalist Christians would likely agree with you. 

 

I'd suggest that you not adhere so strictly to fundamentalism.  It's not healthy, nor is it (intellectually?) honest.  IMO.

 

 

Quote

 

No.  That sentence was framed as a question to you.  It was asked in the context of who was responsible for causing suffering by doing evil.   If you believe that god knows all things and makes moral choices, then would he not be fully responsible for causing suffering because he creates evil, as per Isaiah 45:7?

 

So, would you please answer the question, RS?

 

 

Ok bud, let's take a look at that question again:

 

 

Quote

Which would mean that he is responsible for them in the fullest possible way?

 

That's your conclusion.  I don't see it that way.  Why do you think I should?

 

Please answer the question Walter.  And make it snappy. 

 

 

Quote

You may not know, but do you care?  Do you care about who is responsible for creating evil and causing suffering?

 

As an atheist (please correct me if my assumption isn't correct), do you care who is responsible for this cold, cruel universe where 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999% of available space is totally inhospitable to human life... or possibly any life at all?

 

Do you care who is responsible for the human condition, where we suffer for the better part of a century and then just die?  This human condition where humans have been (and are currently still being) slaughtered by the millions on the whims of some dick-tater or political panic?

 

I think this notion of 'who' is important in our disagreement.  Would it be fair to say that you theoretically would (were you a Believer) have to hold the "who" in question to the same standards that the Bible holds us humans to?  Or at least to your own standards of morality?  I think this is the crux of the matter.

 

I do see God as a 'who'.  But not a 'who' like any other 'who'.  We're talking about a 'who' who created the universe as we know it.  A 'who' who created ALL religions.  A 'who' who created everything that's good... and everything that's evil.  A 'who' so vast and incomprehensible that I'm not even an ant by comparison.  

 

I see no more reason to hold God accountable... than you would see any reason to hold the universe accountable.  You can try all you like, but it's kinda meaningless.  IMO.

 

 

Quote

The bible holds him accountable.  Do you have any comment about that - apart from claiming that god doesn't need to be bound by its pages?

 

Can you clarify this a bit?  How does the Bible hold God accountable?  

 

Do you mean through Jesus' death and resurrection?

 

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Then you don't accept the bible as god's Word? 

Every jot and tittle?  No.  Absolutely not.  I've been more than clear about that.  That being said, whatever its flaws (and they are many), this man-made book is kinda all we have in terms of God's Word.  IMO any Christian has no choice but to read between the lines- whether they are willing to acknowledge that or not.

 

Do you think this disqualifies me as a Christian?  Millions of Christians would disagree with you on that point... though millions of fundamentalist Christians would likely agree with you. 

 

I'd suggest that you not adhere so strictly to fundamentalism.  It's not healthy, nor is it (intellectually?) honest.  IMO.

 

 

 

My modus operandi is to play Devil's Advocate, RS.

 

So, when debating biblical inerrantists and fundamentalists I try to take their position. 

 

But now that you have made your position clearer, I will have to cut my cloth accordingly.

 

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

Which would mean that he is responsible for them in the fullest possible way?

 

That's your conclusion.  I don't see it that way.  Why do you think I should?

 

Please answer the question Walter.  And make it snappy

 

 

I did think that you should, until you clarified your position regarding the role of scripture in your beliefs.

 

Now that you've done that I can no longer apply logic to scripture in a strict way in our dialogue, taking the text at face value.

[walterpthefirst]

You may not know, but do you care?  Do you care about who is responsible for creating evil and causing suffering?

 

As an atheist (please correct me if my assumption isn't correct), do you care who is responsible for this cold, cruel universe where 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999% of available space is totally inhospitable to human life... or possibly any life at all?

 

Do you care who is responsible for the human condition, where we suffer for the better part of a century and then just die?  This human condition where humans have been (and are currently still being) slaughtered by the millions on the whims of some dick-tater or political panic?

 

I think this notion of 'who' is important in our disagreement.  Would it be fair to say that you theoretically would (were you a Believer) have to hold the "who" in question to the same standards that the Bible holds us humans to?  Or at least to your own standards of morality?  I think this is the crux of the matter.

 

 

Surely, before you we agree to get into the notion of 'who', the onus falls upon you to answer my question, rather than to just bat it back to me, unanswered?  I know that Jesus did this with the Pharisees (Matthew 21 : 23 - 27) requiring them to answer his question before he would answer theirs.  

 

If questions can't be freely exchanged between members, with a reasonable expectation of them being answered, then how can this debating area be expected to function properly?  (Rhetorical.  No need to answer.)   Debate and discussion without Q & A won't get very far, will it?  (Again, rhetorical.)

 

But I will answer your questions - in the hope that you will answer mine about caring who is responsible for creating evil and causing suffering?

 

1. 

No, I don't care who is responsible for how the universe is.  But that's because I'm persuaded by the evidence that the universe is infinitely large.  Which means that when the Cosmological Principle is applied to it, the end result is that the universe must be thriving with life.  

 

2.

No, I don't care about who is responsible for the human condition because evolution isn't a person and no moral decisions were involved in how we evolved.

 

Having answered your questions RS, I now hope that you will answer mine.

 

[walterpthefirst]

I do see God as a 'who'.  But not a 'who' like any other 'who'.  We're talking about a 'who' who created the universe as we know it.  A 'who' who created ALL religions.  A 'who' who created everything that's good... and everything that's evil.  A 'who' so vast and incomprehensible that I'm not even an ant by comparison.  

 

 

As far as the science goes, the jury is still out on the question of whether the universe came into existence or has always existed in one form or another.

[walterpthefirst]

The bible holds him accountable.  Do you have any comment about that - apart from claiming that god doesn't need to be bound by its pages?

 

Can you clarify this a bit?  How does the Bible hold God accountable?  

 

Do you mean through Jesus' death and resurrection?

 

 

 

No, it's in Romans.

 

8 : 18 - 21

 

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 

19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 

21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

 

11 : 28 - 32

 

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 

29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 

31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 

32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

 

It was god's will to subject his creation to frustration by binding Adam and Eve's will, forcing them to disobey him.

 

The Fall and all the suffering that came from it was caused by god and not them and not by Satan either.

 

So, the bible itself holds god accountable.

 

Just so long as you take it as authoritative, that is.

 

 

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

Then you don't accept the bible as god's Word? 

Every jot and tittle?  No.  Absolutely not.  I've been more than clear about that.  That being said, whatever its flaws (and they are many), this man-made book is kinda all we have in terms of God's Word.  IMO any Christian has no choice but to read between the lines- whether they are willing to acknowledge that or not.

 

Do you think this disqualifies me as a Christian?  Millions of Christians would disagree with you on that point... though millions of fundamentalist Christians would likely agree with you. 

 

I'd suggest that you not adhere so strictly to fundamentalism.  It's not healthy, nor is it (intellectually?) honest.  IMO.

 

 

 

My modus operandi is to play Devil's Advocate, RS.

 

So, when debating biblical inerrantists and fundamentalists I try to take their position. 

 

But now that you have made your position clearer, I will have to cut my cloth accordingly.

 

 

 

 

I like this post.

 

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

Which would mean that he is responsible for them in the fullest possible way?

 

That's your conclusion.  I don't see it that way.  Why do you think I should?

 

Please answer the question Walter.  And make it snappy

 

 

I did think that you should, until you clarified your position regarding the role of scripture in your beliefs.

 

Now that you've done that I can no longer apply logic to scripture in a strict way in our dialogue, taking the text at face value.

 

I like this one even more.

[RankStranger]

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Surely, before you we agree to get into the notion of 'who', the onus falls upon you to answer my question, rather than to just bat it back to me, unanswered?  I know that Jesus did this with the Pharisees (Matthew 21 : 23 - 27) requiring them to answer his question before he would answer theirs.  

 

If questions can't be freely exchanged between members, with a reasonable expectation of them being answered, then how can this debating area be expected to function properly?  (Rhetorical.  No need to answer.)   Debate and discussion without Q & A won't get very far, will it?  (Again, rhetorical.)

 

But I will answer your questions - in the hope that you will answer mine about caring who is responsible for creating evil and causing suffering?

 

1. 

No, I don't care who is responsible for how the universe is.  But that's because I'm persuaded by the evidence that the universe is infinitely large.  Which means that when the Cosmological Principle is applied to it, the end result is that the universe must be thriving with life.  

 

2.

No, I don't care about who is responsible for the human condition because evolution isn't a person and no moral decisions were involved in how we evolved.

 

Having answered your questions RS, I now hope that you will answer mine.

 

 

1 hour ago, walterpthefirst said:

You may not know, but do you care?  Do you care about who is responsible for creating evil and causing suffering?

 

As an atheist (please correct me if my assumption isn't correct), do you care who is responsible for this cold, cruel universe where 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999% of available space is totally inhospitable to human life... or possibly any life at all?

 

Do you care who is responsible for the human condition, where we suffer for the better part of a century and then just die?  This human condition where humans have been (and are currently still being) slaughtered by the millions on the whims of some dick-tater or political panic?

 

I think this notion of 'who' is important in our disagreement.  Would it be fair to say that you theoretically would (were you a Believer) have to hold the "who" in question to the same standards that the Bible holds us humans to?  Or at least to your own standards of morality?  I think this is the crux of the matter.

 

 

Surely, before you we agree to get into the notion of 'who', the onus falls upon you to answer my question, rather than to just bat it back to me, unanswered?  I know that Jesus did this with the Pharisees (Matthew 21 : 23 - 27) requiring them to answer his question before he would answer theirs.  

 

If questions can't be freely exchanged between members, with a reasonable expectation of them being answered, then how can this debating area be expected to function properly?  (Rhetorical.  No need to answer.)   Debate and discussion without Q & A won't get very far, will it?  (Again, rhetorical.)

 

 

 

I just noticed you're in England.  That might explain a couple of things   We're not entirely speaking the same language.  Like most Americans, I don't concern myself too much with what is or isn't the Queen's King's English. 

 

Generally speaking I only answer questions that I like, and that I find interesting.  I don't care whether you think I should answer a particular question, nor do I care how you think I ought to answer it.  But I'm glad that we can continue this conversation.

 

I'll try again... maybe this will be a little more clear:  I care that God has created everything, including suffering and evil, per Isaiah 45:7.  I think it's an important thing to understand.  But I don't care in the sense of holding God 'responsible' or anything of the sort.  See my reasoning regarding holding the Universe responsible.  Swap the word 'universe' for 'God'.  Now you understand my reasoning.

 

My deepest condolences that some premises of your question remain unaccepted.

 

 

Quote

But I will answer your questions - in the hope that you will answer mine about caring who is responsible for creating evil and causing suffering?

 

1. 

No, I don't care who is responsible for how the universe is.  But that's because I'm persuaded by the evidence that the universe is infinitely large.  Which means that when the Cosmological Principle is applied to it, the end result is that the universe must be thriving with life.  

 

2.

No, I don't care about who is responsible for the human condition because evolution isn't a person and no moral decisions were involved in how we evolved.

 

Having answered your questions RS, I now hope that you will answer mine.

 

 

1.  I'm persuaded that God is infinity + 1 large.

 

2.  I don't think God's creation of human evolution is personal either.

 

 

Are we ready for that 'who' discussion yet?