The tower of Babel

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Hey @aik

 

I'm moving our conversation to this thread so we don't take away from the other thread. Is that ok with you?

 

I said earlier:

 

Ok. Let me get back to the tower of babel. Why don't we look at the scripture?

 

 

Genesis 11

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

 

When I talk about the bible. If there is some discrepancies between me and another person, I like to show the scripture so we can get on the same page. 

 

Let's dissect this scripture. Verses 1 - 4 describe a people of one language that had come together and wanted to build a city with a tower to make a name for themselves. 

 

Where does that reflect sin? Many people have come together to build cities to make a name for themselves. And towers to go in them. Look at Dubai. But God did nothing to them. 

 

You said it was because of sin. Because of arrogance. But that isn't what the Bible says. Anything other than what the Bible says is speculation. What did the Bible say?

 

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

 

The sole purpose of God's reason was because he did not want man to be able to come together. He says that if they come together nothing will be restrained from them. They were achieving to much through their unity. 

 

Anything else is speculation. The Bible doesn't say he did it because of their sin. But because of their ability to achieve great things. This indicates that he thought that they could build this tower. And he didn't want them to. 

 

It also implies that he felt threatened by their ability to do this.

 

Just as he felt threatened by the possibility of them eating of the tree of life and living forever like him. 

 

But we know now that a tower to heaven, made of bricks and mortar, would crush under its own weight. 

 

I'm just going to be real about this AIK.

 

This is an obvious fable to explain to an ancient people why people speak different languages. I was able to see this even when I was Christian. This was one of those discrepancies between scripture and reality that can't be resolved. 

 

People have different languages because they developed their languages in different areas of the world. They were already separated. It had nothing to do with God. But they didn't understand that 4000 years ago. We do now. 

 

One thing this story does have right tho. When the human race comes together. We can just about accomplish anything we set our minds to. We have achieved things that the writers of this story wouldn't have been able to imagine. Russia has achieved far more than these people with their city and their tower. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

We can go on whatever rabbit trails we want on this thread

 

[aik]

4 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Hey @aik

 

I'm moving our conversation to this thread so we don't take away from the other thread. Is that ok with you?

 

I said earlier:

 

Ok. Let me get back to the tower of babel. Why don't we look at the scripture?

 

 

Genesis 11

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

 

When I talk about the bible. If there is some discrepancies between me and another person, I like to show the scripture so we can get on the same page. 

 

Let's dissect this scripture. Verses 1 - 4 describe a people of one language that had come together and wanted to build a city with a tower to make a name for themselves. 

 

Where does that reflect sin? Many people have come together to build cities to make a name for themselves. And towers to go in them. Look at Dubai. But God did nothing to them. 

 

You said it was because of sin. Because of arrogance. But that isn't what the Bible says. Anything other than what the Bible says is speculation. What did the Bible say?

 

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

 

The sole purpose of God's reason was because he did not want man to be able to come together. He says that if they come together nothing will be restrained from them. They were achieving to much through their unity. 

 

Anything else is speculation. The Bible doesn't say he did it because of their sin. But because of their ability to achieve great things. This indicates that he thought that they could build this tower. And he didn't want them to. 

 

It also implies that he felt threatened by their ability to do this.

 

Just as he felt threatened by the possibility of them eating of the tree of life and living forever like him. 

 

But we know now that a tower to heaven, made of bricks and mortar, would crush under its own weight. 

 

I'm just going to be real about this AIK.

 

This is an obvious fable to explain to an ancient people why people speak different languages. I was able to see this even when I was Christian. This was one of those discrepancies between scripture and reality that can't be resolved. 

 

People have different languages because they developed their languages in different areas of the world. They were already separated. It had nothing to do with God. But they didn't understand that 4000 years ago. We do now. 

 

One thing this story does have right tho. When the human race comes together. We can just about accomplish anything we set our minds to. We have achieved things that the writers of this story wouldn't have been able to imagine. Russia has achieved far more than these people with their city and their tower. 

 

DB

OK Dear Bishop. When I referred to Adam I wanted to explain why the babel tower story is connected with sin. 

 

Let me continue answering myself to the question you refused to answer. Did Adam have an option to eat from the tree of life? Look what happened in the paradise. Adam was created in righteousness. And he could eat from every tree set in the paradise, even the tree of life. God forbid only the tree of knowledge, let us say. The tree of life would give everlasting life to adam. So it shows that God gave an option to a man from the very beginning. When devil came to eve she even there had a choice. Even if we mention the text where it says that God has chosen Jesus to be crucified before the world started, we shall take into account that by the time of creation of earth evil has already been. So the scripture says that God destroyed satanic power by the hand of Adam, the second Adam, which is Jesus. The first Adam was not able to overcome. 

 

What refers to hell. Hell is kept only for the devil and his angels. But a man will be punished to torrents only because of his choice, which is to stay in sin. In history at any time any single human had an option to choose God. Abel chose, Cain did not, Noah chose, but the people around did not. 

 

We'll God gave a commandment to Japeth, as a blessing, to be spread all around the world, but the people chose disobedience, refused to obey Gods commandment. This was their sin. And we see now, when somebody refuses to keep any commandment of God, it is because he does not want to humble himself, because he thinks he knows better. 

 

It is what I wanted to explain about the sin of babel tower constructors. 

[aik]

7 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

We can go on whatever rabbit trails we want on this thread

 

Lol

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

20 minutes ago, aik said:

OK Dear Bishop. When I referred to Adam I wanted to explain why the babel tower story is connected with sin. 

 

Let me continue answering myself to the question you refused to answer. Did Adam have an option to eat from the tree of life? Look what happened in the paradise. Adam was created in righteousness. And he could eat from every tree set in the paradise, even the tree of life. God forbid only the tree of knowledge, let us say. The tree of life would give everlasting life to adam. So it shows that God gave an option to a man from the very beginning. When devil came to eve she even there had a choice. Even if we mention the text where it says that God has chosen Jesus to be crucified before the world started, we shall take into account that by the time of creation of earth evil has already been. So the scripture says that God destroyed satanic power by the hand of Adam, the second Adam, which is Jesus. The first Adam was not able to overcome. 

 

What refers to hell. Hell is kept only for the devil and his angels. But a man will be punished to torrents only because of his choice, which is to stay in sin. In history at any time any single human had an option to choose God. Abel chose, Cain did not, Noah chose, but the people around did not. 

 

We'll God gave a commandment to Japeth, as a blessing, to be spread all around the world, but the people chose disobedience, refused to obey Gods commandment. This was their sin. And we see now, when somebody refuses to keep any commandment of God, it is because he does not want to humble himself, because he thinks he knows better. 

 

It is what I wanted to explain about the sin of babel tower constructors. 

Ahhh!!! Thats a good rebuttal for a Christian, means you do study some and give your faith some thought. I can respect that. I'm sure you are a good worker in your church. I would be proud of you if I were your pastor. Some Christians that come here have crazy far fetched off topic views. Or they don't really know anything about the bible and just make a bunch of assertions. It seems like you study a bit. Do you?

 

You mentioned a few things in this that I recognize from the Bible. If you don't mind when we are discussing bible. Could you let me know the book, chapter, and verse that your looking at? Or that you are referencing? I like to look up what the Bible says about it. I can look it up myself but It would just save some time. And I will do the same. Does that sound good?

 

Thats why when I'm making points, I like to put the scripture in the post. So we are looking at the same thing. But I'm sure you read the Bible in Russian. So just let me know what book chapter and verse and I'll look it up. 

 

I will reply to this a little later. Family time right now. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

1 hour ago, aik said:

OK Dear Bishop. When I referred to Adam I wanted to explain why the babel tower story is connected with sin. 

 

Let me continue answering myself to the question you refused to answer. Did Adam have an option to eat from the tree of life? Look what happened in the paradise. Adam was created in righteousness. And he could eat from every tree set in the paradise, even the tree of life. God forbid only the tree of knowledge, let us say. The tree of life would give everlasting life to adam. So it shows that God gave an option to a man from the very beginning. When devil came to eve she even there had a choice. Even if we mention the text where it says that God has chosen Jesus to be crucified before the world started, we shall take into account that by the time of creation of earth evil has already been. So the scripture says that God destroyed satanic power by the hand of Adam, the second Adam, which is Jesus. The first Adam was not able to overcome. 

 

What refers to hell. Hell is kept only for the devil and his angels. But a man will be punished to torrents only because of his choice, which is to stay in sin. In history at any time any single human had an option to choose God. Abel chose, Cain did not, Noah chose, but the people around did not. 

 

We'll God gave a commandment to Japeth, as a blessing, to be spread all around the world, but the people chose disobedience, refused to obey Gods commandment. This was their sin. And we see now, when somebody refuses to keep any commandment of God, it is because he does not want to humble himself, because he thinks he knows better. 

 

It is what I wanted to explain about the sin of babel tower constructors. 

 

aik,

 

Referring to you the sentence I've highlighted, was Esau given an option to choose god?

 

 

Romans 9 : 10 - 18.

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

God hated Esau before he was born.   God never changes his mind.

 

 

Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.

 

 

So, god has always hated Esau and will always hate him.  Therefore, Esau never had the option to choose god.

 

God had made his mind up to hate him and there was nothing that Esau could do to make god to change his mind.

 

Which means that you are wrong, aik.

 

Not everybody gets the option to choose god.

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 hours ago, aik said:

It is what I wanted to explain about the sin of babel tower constructors. 

Ok, before I make my response. Do you believe that all of the Bible is the inspired word of God? 

 

DB

[aik]

3 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

Ahhh!!! Thats a good rebuttal for a Christian, means you do study some and give your faith some thought. I can respect that. I'm sure you are a good worker in your church. I would be proud of you if I were your pastor. Some Christians that come here have crazy far fetched off topic views. Or they don't really know anything about the bible and just make a bunch of assertions. It seems like you study a bit. Do you?

 

You mentioned a few things in this that I recognize from the Bible. If you don't mind when we are discussing bible. Could you let me know the book, chapter, and verse that your looking at? Or that you are referencing? I like to look up what the Bible says about it. I can look it up myself but It would just save some time. And I will do the same. Does that sound good?

 

Thats why when I'm making points, I like to put the scripture in the post. So we are looking at the same thing. But I'm sure you read the Bible in Russian. So just let me know what book chapter and verse and I'll look it up. 

 

I will reply to this a little later. Family time right now. 

 

DB

Just give a time also. I ll give you references. Right now on the phone it is not so comfortable to do. 

 

Russian is not my native language. So I read bible in two languages, and Russian here is the second, jus for communication in church. 

[aik]

6 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Ok, before I make my response. Do you believe that all of the Bible is the inspired word of God? 

 

DB

Yes I do. But the Bible as you know consists of 66 books, and there one can find Satan's words etc. So we discern those things. So if Satan says something, he says lie, though it is written in the bible. 

[aik]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

aik,

 

Referring to you the sentence I've highlighted, was Esau given an option to choose god?

 

 

Romans 9 : 10 - 18.

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

God hated Esau before he was born.   God never changes his mind.

 

 

Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.

 

 

So, god has always hated Esau and will always hate him.  Therefore, Esau never had the option to choose god.

 

God had made his mind up to hate him and there was nothing that Esau could do to make god to change his mind.

 

Which means that you are wrong, aik.

 

Not everybody gets the option to choose god.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course Essu had a choice. I will give you an answer Walter. As I said to DB, please give me some time. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

30 minutes ago, aik said:

Yes I do. But the Bible as you know consists of 66 books, and there one can find Satan's words etc. So we discern those things. So if Satan says something, he says lie, though it is written in the bible. 

Well.... hmm. That makes it hard to prove any point using the Bible. Any contradiction I show you will be written off as Satan's interpretation. You have been thoroughly indoctrinated. 

 

I can work with that tho. It'll just be harder. Taking that stance will put you in many positions where you will just contradict yourself. 

 

How do you feel about archeology and the opinion of scholars who can read and speak the original languages? Christian scholars as well. They can actually see the most original texts and read them. 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

9 hours ago, aik said:

Of course Essu had a choice. I will give you an answer Walter. As I said to DB, please give me some time. 

 

No problem, aik.

 

But Esau wasn't the only person who wasn't given a choice by god.  There are many.  It says so Romans 9 : 16 - 19

 

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 

23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 

24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

There are two groups who were never given the choice by god.

 

Those who were prepared by god in advance for glory and those who were prepared in advance for destruction.

 

God prepared them in advance, before they were born, and since he does not change his mind, whatever they choose when they live cannot undo his decision.

 

So, even if Jesus preaches to the dead (1 Peter 3 : 18 - 20) he is only going to save those whom the Father has already prepared for glory.

 

Which means that the choice was never theirs to make. 

 

God chooses, not us.

 

 

[aik]

I want to apologize for my silance. Let us take a day or two off please, I really don't have a chance to communicate with you now. It because of my work. It is too much. We have to comply with milestones. I think on Saturday I will come in to here. Don't you mind?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

12 minutes ago, aik said:

I want to apologize for my silance. Let us take a day or two off please, I really don't have a chance to communicate with you now. It because of my work. It is too much. We have to comply with milestones. I think on Saturday I will come in to here. Don't you mind?

Thats ok AIK. Between now and then I will post a reply and you can respond when you are able. 

 

Work and family come first. I think we all can understand. 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

19 hours ago, aik said:

Let me continue answering myself to the question you refused to answer. Did Adam have an option to eat from the tree of life? Look what happened in the paradise. Adam was created in righteousness. And he could eat from every tree set in the paradise, even the tree of life. God forbid only the tree of knowledge, let us say. The tree of life would give everlasting life to adam. So it shows that God gave an option to a man from the very beginning. When devil came to eve she even there had a choice. Even if we mention the text where it says that God has chosen Jesus to be crucified before the world started, we shall take into account that by the time of creation of earth evil has already been. So the scripture says that God destroyed satanic power by the hand of Adam, the second Adam, which is Jesus. The first Adam was not able to overcome. 

 

Ok AIK,

 

Here you say Adam had a choice. The tree of life or defy God and eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But your also not addressing the point I made that they did not know good from evil. These are two people that did not even recognize their own nakedness until they ate of the fruit. Here let's look at it. I don't want to spend to long on it because we have talked a lot about Adam and eve in the garden lately with another Christian. It would be nice if you read those two threads I posted links to in your "new Christian visitor" thread. 

 

Genesis chapter 3 starting in verse 1:

 

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

 

First of all it says in verse one that the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field that the lord God had made. It wasn't until later additions that the Bible connects the serpent with the devil. But we'll talk about that later. We'll go with the traditional Christian understanding now. 

 

Now you will see in verse 7 after eating the fruit they saw that they were naked. Nakedness was part of that knowledge of good and evil. They developed a conscience when they ate the fruit. They then knew right from wrong. Before they ate the fruit they had no concept of right from wrong. 

 

Yes you are correct. God did tell them not to eat of the fruit. But there was another being in the Garden that God knew about. But that Adam and Eve did not know about. This being was the one that presented Adam and eve with the choice. Not God. 

 

But this choice was presented to two humans that had did not have a long life to draw from to make their decision. They also did not know right from wrong. So they would have had no way to know that choosing to eat it against God's will was the wrong thing to do. They also thought that the fruit would make them die a natural death. And it didn't. God did not tell them that when they ate the fruit that their souls would die and sin would pass upon all man. God just said they would die. So the serpent didn't actually lie to Adam and eve. And God didn't actually tell them the complete truth either. 

 

Adam and eve were making a decision without all the information necessary to make an informed decision. They couldn't make an informed decision because they couldn't decern right from wrong. They couldn't make an informed decision because God had not told them exactly what would happen. They couldn't make an informed decision because the serpent also didn't tell them the whole truth of what would happen. 

 

Two naive humans were left defenseless by God,  to be deceived by a being almost as powerful as himself. And without the knowledge of good and evil they would not have been able to know that the serpent was evil. Or even that God was good. They didn't even know that their nakedness was wrong. 

 

We went into great detail in another thread about what a good loving father would do in this situation to protect his children. And we concluded that God failed to do that. 

 

An all knowing God would know the serpent was in the garden. What the serpent wanted to do. And also what Adam and eve would do if faced with that decision. Yet he did nothing to stop the serpent.

 

an all loving God wouldn't have let it happen and then be forced to send a great multitude of people to hell. If he had made sure Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit. Everyone would be heaven bound. 

 

An all powerful God would have just been able to snap his fingers and put the serpent in a cage. Avoiding all this tragedy.

 

 

As you have seen in Walter's post. God hardened the hearts of men all throughout the old testament so that his will and power could be shown. He predestined Pharoah to suffer at his hand so that his power could be shown.

 

The scripture I posted earlier shows that God predestined salvation through Christ before the world was formed. So before he said let their be light, before he separated the waters, before he built the dome on his flat earth creation or made any animals, and before he dipped his fingers in clay to make the humans, he had predestinated salvation through christ. 

 

It was God's will that Adam chose to eat of that apple. Because if he hadn't. None of God's other plans would have come to fruition. Adam not only couldn't make an informed decision as he was a new human unable to decern good from evil. He also couldn't deny the will of God, like so many other people in the old testament. 

 

I will make one more reply about the tower of babel later. And then I will wait until you are able to answer on Saturday. 

 

Thanks 

 

DB

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Now let's talk about the tower of Babel. You made plenty of assertions that God confused the people language because they had sinned. 

 

I would like you to show me where it says that. I've heard preachers speak on the tower of babel and they made similar assertions. But where in the bible does it actually say that? It doesn't do it in the tower of babel story. And I can't find where it says it else where. You tried to tie Adam and Eves sin in with the tower of babel because they had a choice. But that doesn't fit the tower of babel narrative. Let's look at it again. 

 

Genesis 11

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

 

(Here they have only found a place to build a city. They wanted to make a name for themselves. In no way does this scripture suggest that they were sinning.)

 

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

 

(God in this instance did not say that he was confounding their language because of sin. Other times in the scripture God specifically says that he is punishing someone because of their iniquities, sins, or some other type of transgression. Here the only reason God gives is because they were accomplishing to much)

 

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

 

And then this is apparently what happens when humans accomplish to much. They get their language confused and are scatter about the whole world. 

 

What I'm trying to show you in this scripture AIK is that this is an obvious myth to explain why there are different languages. They knew there were people that spoke many different languages but they didn't know why. This was a very primitive people. And this was their explanation. It had nothing to do with sin. And in reality what they were supposedly doing was impossible. This was written during a time that they thought the earth was flat and was covered with a dome. 

 

And unless you can show me where it says in the bible that they were sinning in their attempt to build a tower to heaven. Then I am going to say this was an unprovoked attack on the human race during the building of the tower of Babel. 

 

So ask yourself this:

 

Why did God have such a problem with these people building a tower?

 

We have built towers that would far surpass anything they would have been able to accomplish with bricks and mortar. We have sent men to the moon. We have landed rovers on Mars, and Venus I think... right? We have two spacecraft traveling outside of our solar system. Voyager 1 and voyager 2. But God has not tried to stop us in those endeavors like he did here.

 

Why do people really speak different languages guages?

 

 

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/culture-online/ask-expert/your-questions-answered/why-do-people-speak-different-languages

 

"When we speak a language, we say that this language is living. And like all living things, this language will change over time. When people who speak the same language move apart, the language grows in different directions and eventually new languages are developed. 

Think of a tree growing: as time passes more branches will appear, and newer branches will come out of the old branches. Languages are like that. For example, even though French, Spanish, and Italian are different languages now, they all come from a spoken variety of Latin that was used a long time ago, known as Vulgar Latin.

Around 7,000 different languages are spoken around the world today, but most of them belong to a small number of extended language families. These families are like big old trees with a LOT of branches. We think that the languages in each family have one common ancestor. This tells us that people have been speaking languages for a very long time, and that we have been moving around a lot!"

 

Does this not make a bit more sense than God pointed his finger at us because we were building a tower and made us speak different languages?

 

Even in modern history our languages have changed. Just look at an original 1611 version of the king James bible. The old English in that edition is archaic. I can't understand it and English is my language. God didn't have to come down to change the English language. It just happened. 

 

Languages 200 years from now will be different from what we speak today. People developed ways of communication apart from each other. As they grew together and as time passed the languages changed. That is the truth. This story in the bible is an obvious myth. 

 

Thank you,

 

Dark Bishop

 

This is probably one of the easier to read pages. I get a headache trying lol.

 

[aik]

5 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

This is probably one of the easier to read pages. I get a headache trying lol.

 

Change the font, it will be easier to read. Lol.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 minute ago, aik said:

Change the font, it will be easier to read. Lol.

I'm sure you can still see the differences in spelling and possible pronunciation. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I know you aren't able to reply until tomorrow. No rush. I just wanted to add this while I was waiting. 

 

Before you reply talking about the sin of Babel again, take a look at this in genesis 10.

 

Genesis 10

 

8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.

10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

 

Nimrod was the ruler of Babel. And you know that anyone that sins against the lord would not be considered a mighty hunter before the Lord. This speaks well of Nimrod. There is very little about him but what little there is presents him in a good light with the Lord. 

 

Again. I have yet to actually see in the bible where it says the people building the tower were guilty of anything other than being able to accomplish great things. 

 

Thanks,

 

DB

[aik]

On 11/17/2022 at 1:27 AM, DarkBishop said:

Ahhh!!! Thats a good rebuttal for a Christian, means you do study some and give your faith some thought. I can respect that. I'm sure you are a good worker in your church. I would be proud of you if I were your pastor. Some Christians that come here have crazy far fetched off topic views. Or they don't really know anything about the bible and just make a bunch of assertions. It seems like you study a bit. Do you?

 

You mentioned a few things in this that I recognize from the Bible. If you don't mind when we are discussing bible. Could you let me know the book, chapter, and verse that your looking at? Or that you are referencing? I like to look up what the Bible says about it. I can look it up myself but It would just save some time. And I will do the same. Does that sound good?

 

Thats why when I'm making points, I like to put the scripture in the post. So we are looking at the same thing. But I'm sure you read the Bible in Russian. So just let me know what book chapter and verse and I'll look it up. 

 

I will reply to this a little later. Family time right now. 

 

DB

 

I promised to give references. I am quoting my post and put reference in it.

 

Let me continue answering myself to the question you refused to answer. Did Adam have an option to eat from the tree of life? Look what happened in the paradise. Adam was created in righteousness (Ekkl. 7:29 God made men upright ). And he could eat from every tree set in the paradise, even the tree of life. (Gen. 2:9 And in the middle of the garden were the tree of life) God forbid only the tree of knowledge (Gen. 2:16 You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), let us say. The tree of life would give everlasting life to adam (Gen.3:22  lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...). So it shows that God gave an option to a man from the very beginning. When devil came to eve she even there had a choice. Even if we mention the text where it says that God has chosen Jesus to be crucified before the world started, we shall take into account that by the time of creation of earth evil has already been. So the scripture says that God destroyed satanic power (1 Cor. 15: 20-22 20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ) by the hand of Adam, the second Adam, which is Jesus. (1 Cor 15:45-49 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” e the last Adam a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.) The first Adam was not able to overcome. 

 

What refers to hell. Hell is kept only for the devil and his angels. But a man will be punished to torrents only because of his choice, which is to stay in sin (2 Thes. 2:10 who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them). In history at any time any single human had an option to choose God. Abel chose, Cain did not, Noah chose, but the people around did not. 

 

We'll God gave a commandment to Japeth, as a blessing (Gen. 9:27 May God expand the territory of Japheth)*, to be spread all around the world, but the people chose disobedience, refused to obey Gods commandment. This was their sin. And we see now, when somebody refuses to keep any commandment of God, it is because he does not want to humble himself, because he thinks he knows better. 

 

It is what I wanted to explain about the sin of babel tower constructors. 

 

 

* Japheth sounds like the Hebrew for expand (from a footnote)

 

 

[aik]

On 11/17/2022 at 2:59 AM, walterpthefirst said:

 

aik,

 

Referring to you the sentence I've highlighted, was Esau given an option to choose god?

 

 

Romans 9 : 10 - 18.

 

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 

12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 

15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

God hated Esau before he was born.   God never changes his mind.

 

 

Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.

 

 

So, god has always hated Esau and will always hate him.  Therefore, Esau never had the option to choose god.

 

God had made his mind up to hate him and there was nothing that Esau could do to make god to change his mind.

 

Which means that you are wrong, aik.

 

Not everybody gets the option to choose god.

 

 

 

 

 

Walter, my friend,

 

Look what we have hear. Esau had his choice and he made it. 

 

Genesis, chapter 25:

 

29 One day, while Jacob was cooking some stew, Esau came in from the field and was famished. 30He
said to Jacob, “Let me eat some of that red stew, for I am famished.” (That is why he was also called
Edom.f)
31  First sell me your birthright,” Jacob replied.
32 “Look,” said Esau, “I am about to die, so what good is a birthright to me?”
33“Swear to me first,” Jacob said.
So Esau swore to Jacob and sold him the birthright. 

 

Who made Esau to agree to sell his birthright, i.e. firstborn's right, to Jacob? a hunger? But imagine let's my brother came to me and do the same, I would say "Are you gone crazy? God has given me to be firstborn and it's not up to me?" This was how Esau disposed with the gift of God. Like as many today do. He threw it into a garbage. And actually he had already such a spirit, he had given such a value to the God's gist in his hear prior to what happened  here. Otherwise he would change his mind. That is why God previously, knowing beforehand what kind of a spirit was in Esau, God had spoken about him what He spoke.

 

Then we see in Heb.12:27 "For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could find no ground for repentance, though he sought the blessing with tears". Esau could not change the mind anyway. 

 

So Esau could by saying NO to his brother choose God, but he didn't. And God knew about it before Esau was born. Like as with Judas betraying Jesus.

 

Walter, think what happens in a man, when every day he, standing before God, make his choice, to walk with God or without. If the heart does not move a man towards God, this man can never know what the blessing of God means.  

[aik]

On 11/17/2022 at 2:46 PM, walterpthefirst said:

 

God prepared them in advance, before they were born, and since he does not change his mind, whatever they choose when they live cannot undo his decision.

 

 

Walter you say here "whatever they choose". Show me please, what did they choose in fact? Go ahead.. And i will show you that you a new thing for you.

[aik]

On 11/17/2022 at 8:09 PM, DarkBishop said:

 

Ok AIK,

 

Here you say Adam had a choice. The tree of life or defy God and eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But your also not addressing the point I made that they did not know good from evil. These are two people that did not even recognize their own nakedness until they ate of the fruit. Here let's look at it. I don't want to spend to long on it because we have talked a lot about Adam and eve in the garden lately with another Christian. It would be nice if you read those two threads I posted links to in your "new Christian visitor" thread. 

 

Genesis chapter 3 starting in verse 1:

 

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

 

First of all it says in verse one that the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field that the lord God had made. It wasn't until later additions that the Bible connects the serpent with the devil. But we'll talk about that later. We'll go with the traditional Christian understanding now. 

 

Now you will see in verse 7 after eating the fruit they saw that they were naked. Nakedness was part of that knowledge of good and evil. They developed a conscience when they ate the fruit. They then knew right from wrong. Before they ate the fruit they had no concept of right from wrong. 

 

Yes you are correct. God did tell them not to eat of the fruit. But there was another being in the Garden that God knew about. But that Adam and Eve did not know about. This being was the one that presented Adam and eve with the choice. Not God. 

 

But this choice was presented to two humans that had did not have a long life to draw from to make their decision. They also did not know right from wrong. So they would have had no way to know that choosing to eat it against God's will was the wrong thing to do. They also thought that the fruit would make them die a natural death. And it didn't. God did not tell them that when they ate the fruit that their souls would die and sin would pass upon all man. God just said they would die. So the serpent didn't actually lie to Adam and eve. And God didn't actually tell them the complete truth either. 

 

Adam and eve were making a decision without all the information necessary to make an informed decision. They couldn't make an informed decision because they couldn't decern right from wrong. They couldn't make an informed decision because God had not told them exactly what would happen. They couldn't make an informed decision because the serpent also didn't tell them the whole truth of what would happen. 

 

Two naive humans were left defenseless by God,  to be deceived by a being almost as powerful as himself. And without the knowledge of good and evil they would not have been able to know that the serpent was evil. Or even that God was good. They didn't even know that their nakedness was wrong. 

 

We went into great detail in another thread about what a good loving father would do in this situation to protect his children. And we concluded that God failed to do that. 

 

An all knowing God would know the serpent was in the garden. What the serpent wanted to do. And also what Adam and eve would do if faced with that decision. Yet he did nothing to stop the serpent.

 

an all loving God wouldn't have let it happen and then be forced to send a great multitude of people to hell. If he had made sure Adam and Eve didn't eat the fruit. Everyone would be heaven bound. 

 

An all powerful God would have just been able to snap his fingers and put the serpent in a cage. Avoiding all this tragedy.

 

 

As you have seen in Walter's post. God hardened the hearts of men all throughout the old testament so that his will and power could be shown. He predestined Pharoah to suffer at his hand so that his power could be shown.

 

The scripture I posted earlier shows that God predestined salvation through Christ before the world was formed. So before he said let their be light, before he separated the waters, before he built the dome on his flat earth creation or made any animals, and before he dipped his fingers in clay to make the humans, he had predestinated salvation through christ. 

 

It was God's will that Adam chose to eat of that apple. Because if he hadn't. None of God's other plans would have come to fruition. Adam not only couldn't make an informed decision as he was a new human unable to decern good from evil. He also couldn't deny the will of God, like so many other people in the old testament. 

 

I will make one more reply about the tower of babel later. And then I will wait until you are able to answer on Saturday. 

 

Thanks 

 

DB

Dear Bishop,

 

I have it read. I mean your small book. LOL. 

 

A number of times you repeat the same words that Adam and Eve did not know what was good and evil. They needed it not. But if I give you a wide answer it will take us away from our topic here. Actually I choose more to speak short, but according to the case, though every time inside me I want to say everything I know about everything. 

 

Adam and Eve had no necessity to discern good from evil. They could have everlasting life. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

10 minutes ago, aik said:

 

I promised to give references. I am quoting my post and put reference in it.

 

Let me continue answering myself to the question you refused to answer. Did Adam have an option to eat from the tree of life? Look what happened in the paradise. Adam was created in righteousness (Ekkl. 7:29 God made men upright ). And he could eat from every tree set in the paradise, even the tree of life. (Gen. 2:9 And in the middle of the garden were the tree of life) God forbid only the tree of knowledge (Gen. 2:16 You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), let us say. The tree of life would give everlasting life to adam (Gen.3:22  lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...). So it shows that God gave an option to a man from the very beginning. When devil came to eve she even there had a choice. Even if we mention the text where it says that God has chosen Jesus to be crucified before the world started, we shall take into account that by the time of creation of earth evil has already been. So the scripture says that God destroyed satanic power (1 Cor. 15: 20-22 20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ) by the hand of Adam, the second Adam, which is Jesus. (1 Cor 15:45-49 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” e the last Adam a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.) The first Adam was not able to overcome. 

 

What refers to hell. Hell is kept only for the devil and his angels. But a man will be punished to torrents only because of his choice, which is to stay in sin (2 Thes. 2:10 who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them). In history at any time any single human had an option to choose God. Abel chose, Cain did not, Noah chose, but the people around did not. 

 

We'll God gave a commandment to Japeth, as a blessing (Gen. 9:27 May God expand the territory of Japheth)*, to be spread all around the world, but the people chose disobedience, refused to obey Gods commandment. This was their sin. And we see now, when somebody refuses to keep any commandment of God, it is because he does not want to humble himself, because he thinks he knows better. 

 

It is what I wanted to explain about the sin of babel tower constructors. 

 

 

* Japheth sounds like the Hebrew for expand (from a footnote)

 

 

Hah!!! Thank you!!! Thats awesome! 

 

I looked up a couple of the references but started going on rabbit trails when I started reading about Noah's sons. I remembered I had always wondered why it was such a big deal that ham saw his fathers nakedness when he was drunk.

 

I see these as lessons now. Ancient lessons to teach respect in very hard times. Some of these storys have a simple but weird decency to them while others are really messed up. 

 

I had a preacher friend suggest that Ham had raped his father. But they would of probably killed him for that. So I re-read the story. And I feel that it wasn't that he saw his nakedness. But that he saw it and didn't cover him like Shem and Japeth did. He probably thought it was funny and told his brothers laughing. But Shem and Japeth out of love. Or maybe even sympathy covered his nakedness and they were blessed over Ham. 

 

This is another story I feel is missing content. Like there was a lot more to it. And it was probably lost to time and memory. I also found something that my old church always overlooked when preaching some of their favorite doctrines. But that's a rabbit trail for another day.

 

 

Genesis 9

20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

26 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

 

 

DB

[aik]

On 11/18/2022 at 12:17 AM, DarkBishop said:

Now let's talk about the tower of Babel. You made plenty of assertions that God confused the people language because they had sinned. 

 

I would like you to show me where it says that. I've heard preachers speak on the tower of babel and they made similar assertions. But where in the bible does it actually say that? It doesn't do it in the tower of babel story. And I can't find where it says it else where. You tried to tie Adam and Eves sin in with the tower of babel because they had a choice. But that doesn't fit the tower of babel narrative. Let's look at it again. 

 

Genesis 11

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

 

(Here they have only found a place to build a city. They wanted to make a name for themselves. In no way does this scripture suggest that they were sinning.)

 

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

 

(God in this instance did not say that he was confounding their language because of sin. Other times in the scripture God specifically says that he is punishing someone because of their iniquities, sins, or some other type of transgression. Here the only reason God gives is because they were accomplishing to much)

 

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

 

And then this is apparently what happens when humans accomplish to much. They get their language confused and are scatter about the whole world. 

 

What I'm trying to show you in this scripture AIK is that this is an obvious myth to explain why there are different languages. They knew there were people that spoke many different languages but they didn't know why. This was a very primitive people. And this was their explanation. It had nothing to do with sin. And in reality what they were supposedly doing was impossible. This was written during a time that they thought the earth was flat and was covered with a dome. 

 

And unless you can show me where it says in the bible that they were sinning in their attempt to build a tower to heaven. Then I am going to say this was an unprovoked attack on the human race during the building of the tower of Babel. 

 

So ask yourself this:

 

Why did God have such a problem with these people building a tower?

 

We have built towers that would far surpass anything they would have been able to accomplish with bricks and mortar. We have sent men to the moon. We have landed rovers on Mars, and Venus I think... right? We have two spacecraft traveling outside of our solar system. Voyager 1 and voyager 2. But God has not tried to stop us in those endeavors like he did here.

 

Why do people really speak different languages guages?

 

 

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/culture-online/ask-expert/your-questions-answered/why-do-people-speak-different-languages

 

"When we speak a language, we say that this language is living. And like all living things, this language will change over time. When people who speak the same language move apart, the language grows in different directions and eventually new languages are developed. 

Think of a tree growing: as time passes more branches will appear, and newer branches will come out of the old branches. Languages are like that. For example, even though French, Spanish, and Italian are different languages now, they all come from a spoken variety of Latin that was used a long time ago, known as Vulgar Latin.

Around 7,000 different languages are spoken around the world today, but most of them belong to a small number of extended language families. These families are like big old trees with a LOT of branches. We think that the languages in each family have one common ancestor. This tells us that people have been speaking languages for a very long time, and that we have been moving around a lot!"

 

Does this not make a bit more sense than God pointed his finger at us because we were building a tower and made us speak different languages?

 

Even in modern history our languages have changed. Just look at an original 1611 version of the king James bible. The old English in that edition is archaic. I can't understand it and English is my language. God didn't have to come down to change the English language. It just happened. 

 

Languages 200 years from now will be different from what we speak today. People developed ways of communication apart from each other. As they grew together and as time passed the languages changed. That is the truth. This story in the bible is an obvious myth. 

 

Thank you,

 

Dark Bishop

 

This is probably one of the easier to read pages. I get a headache trying lol.

 

If you allow me, I will also be short here. As short as I can.

 

The sin of the Babel tower designers and constructors (or contractors LOL) was the breach of the Lord's commandment to Japeth. To be scattered. God said Be scattered, they say We will not. God says Bear children and be multiplied, people say We don't want to have many children. God says Stop and refer to the ways of ancient times and go back to them, People say, We will not. 

 

It is as simple as a massage of Got to people. 

 

I agree with all the staff about the languages. I know that topic (languages). But the point of the story is not the language. It is only a kid who thinks that the story of the Babel tower tells us about the languages.