The tower of Babel

[aik]

4 hours ago, TABA said:

Yes, those who break the law of the land must pay a price.  Not because society enjoys punishing violators, but to deter.  Otherwise the law is widely ignored.  
 

But a key element of a civilized society is that punishment should fit the crime.  We no longer execute people for stealing.  Execution, where it exists at all, is almost exclusively used in cases of premeditated murder. 

 

Except for a few countries dominated by religious fanaticism, people are no longer executed or even punished for apostasy or blasphemy.  
 

Another key feature of a civilized society is that guilt must be demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt, so that an innocent person is not punished for a crime committed by  another.  And nobody is punished for the crime of their parents.  

Thanks for answer taba. Let us wait for others also.

[walterpthefirst]

5 minutes ago, aik said:

Thanks for answer taba. Let us wait for others also.

 

TABA's answer was not about god and the examples he gave about apostasy and blasphemy were not about god either. 

 

They were about the laws of different countries.

 

So, he has not answered your question about god aik, because you did not ask a question about god.

 

 

I also answered your question, giving examples of different countries.

 

So, if you accept that TABA HAS answered your question, then I MUST HAVE answered your question too.

 

 

Therefore, please now answer my question.

 

Here it is again.

 

Did the repentance of the Ninevites change god's mind?  

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

8 hours ago, aik said:

Glory to the Lord Jesus Christ. 

 

Please everybody answer. Without answering to this simple question I am not able to respond to all your many questions.

 

Do you think that a violator or a criminal must be punished?

 

Not in every case.  There can be extenuating circumstances.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

8 hours ago, aik said:

 

Do you think that a violator or a criminal must be punished?

 

Must is an absolute.  Not everything is all right, or all wrong, but that seems to be the way you think.  And people who think in those terms tend to never admitt to being wrong.  Their mind is closed to new or different ideas or information, and you are good at diverting conversation.  Arguing with you is futile, so I am bowing out of this conversation.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Not every "crime" should be punished; and not everything that is punished is a crime.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

7 hours ago, aik said:

Thanks for answer taba. Let us wait for others also.

I think we all would agree that there are consequences for someone's actions. And I'm assuming you are going to say that Hell is the punishment for sin, and only Jesus can take away that sin, blah blah blah. We all know that. Remember we were Christian. Now we aren't. 

 

But what makes you think that those babies God had killed and dashed against stones were guilty of anything? They weren't guilty of anything. This scripture reflects an ancient barbaric culture. Their God was a reflection of them. They believed this type of thing was acceptable and even promoted by their God. They probably even had the same done to them at some point. Could you imagine watching the people who just invaded your land, laying hold of your children or ripping your infant out of your arms. Bashing their heads against stones until they were dead. Could you imagine the horror? 

 

That is what God is promoting in the bible.

 

Who is the real villain here? Who really deserves to be sent to hell? Satan who convinced two people to eat of a fruit? Or God who repeatedly kills innocent women, children, and infants? 

 

DB

[walterpthefirst]

aik, 

 

You said that without us answering your simple question you would not be able to respond to our questions. 

 

Five people have replied; TABA, Weezer, the RedneckProfessor, Dark Bishop and myself.  

 

Therefore your condition has been met.

 

You have had our answers.

 

This now means that you will be able to respond to our questions.

 

So now please answer my question.

 

 

Did the repentance of the Ninevites change god's mind?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aik]

12 hours ago, TABA said:

Yes, those who break the law of the land must pay a price.  Not because society enjoys punishing violators, but to deter.  Otherwise the law is widely ignored.  
 

But a key element of a civilized society is that punishment should fit the crime.  We no longer execute people for stealing.  Execution, where it exists at all, is almost exclusively used in cases of premeditated murder. 

 

Except for a few countries dominated by religious fanaticism, people are no longer executed or even punished for apostasy or blasphemy.  
 

Another key feature of a civilized society is that guilt must be demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt, so that an innocent person is not punished for a crime committed by  another.  And nobody is punished for the crime of their parents.  

Good morning to everyone,

 

Look what happens here. Do you see how difficult sometimes is to give a straight answer to a plain question? And it is not because of lack of understanding of education. Everyone here is smart enough. It is because of hypocrisy in hearts, like it or not. Because when we start being straight before justice, then look what happens. In the same way you give answers to God in your hearts. The only straight answer was of TABA's. and sure I agree with explanation given there about punishment fitting the crime and that a punishment is not for enjoy.

 

The question was about justice.

 

In terms of God, He is holy, absolutely holy. We want it or not. Our Creator has no sin. The Bible says that the payment for or against sin is death. Because there is no place for sin. It means that everyone who sinned must be brought to death. Adam was told about that. So what we have, after Adam everyone followed satanic lies and sinned. They did not follow God. The only guy who was trying to follow God was Abel, and he was killed. 

 

Gen.6:11

11Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and full of violence. 12And God looked upon the earth and saw that it was corrupt; for all living creatures on the earth had corrupted their ways.

 

Everyone sinned. There is not one righteous. According to God's law everyone should be put to death. 

 

Do you think people before flood were stealing, murdering, or saying lies? What kind of sin did they do? I don't know what actions the did, but obviously their faith was of Adams, Adamic faith which leads to sin, i.e. to death. 

 

Judgement of Sodom, Cananites, Amalekites, Philistimlians was not because they were holy. Their practices were anti-human. They were having uncontrolled sex in their places of worship (I don't know the right word for it in English, please excuse me), they were bringing their babies to burn to their gods, the lived filthy way of life. Did you see a statue of Baal? It was a big penis (historians say), to which they worshiped to. Ultimately God should have made the second flood to clean the mankind from the surface of the earth, in my judgment. 

 

So what is wrong with the justice of God? Sure we living here and now will have some difficulties of understanding God's law. For example in my nation when an elder man enters the room, a young man if he is sitting in the room he should stand up to greet him. I don't know if it is applicable for you. For example our parents should approve a choice of their son for marriage. Isn't it not strange for you? Some nations have a practice of childhood marriage agreement concluded between families, when their children grow up they will marry to each other. Isn't it strange? I mean that there are many things that we can find strange or inapplicable. For example we observe that in some nation it is almost lost the respect to elders and to parents. But other people save it. So, for those who do not practice such respect to parents (doing what they say, caring about them, giving first pace in many places to a parent etc) it is very strange and it seems wrong when they see others doing it. 

 

DB brought some passages from Bible, that if I heard that one nation did that to another, surely I would say the same, that it is a genocide. Of course it is. But if we take into account that a Creator judges the sinful nation which should have been judged long before that, we can see sinful practices, we can see rebellion against God's law, so He as the Creator, has the right to judge. Like it or not. 

 

The problem here is that some people now do not want to see anyone over them to judge them. Because a man strives to sin, and avoids paying for it. 

 

Now the earth is filled with sins, evil of various kinds. And God pointed a day when He will judge everyone according to His justice. Not a single sinner will enter the Heaven. It will not be the second flood, but it will be the end of this earth. Like it or not. 

 

But obviously you do not believe it, like Cain's descendants. You are going to be perished in terms of God. If you do not believe, what we are talking about? What are you waiting from God? If you do not believe how do you want to be sure about God? You will always be doubting and asking and trying to convince one another that there is no God. 

 

If after reading this, you wish that I answer your particular questions my friends, please tell me. I will. 

 

But if you believe that there is God absolute, creator, judge over all. Then let us find what the Bible tells else. 

 

In some Chinese translations of the Bible it is very interesting to see that the first verses of John 1:1, are translated like "In the beginning was dao, and the dao was with God and the dao was God". Instead Logos they used the word close to Logos, Dao is more clear for Chinese people.

 

I mean that here can be some people just disappointed in Jesus because they saw something in churches, pastors or heard to the educated liars. I don't really know what you were taught in your churches, but I am afraid of it sometimes. Once I have said that we here think that many churches lead to a wrong way, saying wrong things, not what the Bible teaches but what the people want to hear. Of course we want that Jesus gives us health, money, friends, families and electricity, technology. But these things are not life. People lived without electricity centuries ago, and they were happy with God. Right now many people suffer lack of comfort, and technological means, but the continue living with God keep loving amidst the death. Some of them have lost their families but the did not lose their love to God and to people. Because they have Jesus in their hearts. And they know that death is not the end of their life, but the start.

 

Jesus is the life. He is the Tree of Life, that whoever eats the fruit of it, he will live forever. 

 

Best regards,

from aik with love of Jesus.

 

 

 

[freshstart]

17 hours ago, aik said:

Do you think that a violator or a criminal must be punished?

Yes, but disbelief is not a crime.

[aik]

10 minutes ago, freshstart said:

Yes, but disbelief is not a crime.

Accepted. I will answer this later, dear sister.

[freshstart]

55 minutes ago, aik said:

You will always be doubting and asking and trying to convince one another that there is no God. 

Nope. We are comfotably certain there is no biblical god. No one is trying to convince each other there is no god.

56 minutes ago, aik said:

I mean that here can be some people just disappointed in Jesus because they saw something in churches, pastors or heard to the educated liars.

No one here is disappointed in Jesus anymore than we are disappointed in Santa Claus. I don't think you understand that the bible holds absolutely no sway over us. Why should it? It is a book of fables.

 

59 minutes ago, aik said:

Do you think people before flood were stealing, murdering, or saying lies? What kind of sin did they do?

What kind of sin did the babies and children do before the flood? Clearly you believe that babies and children deserved to die in the story of Noah's Ark. Why? Because of the "sins" of their ancestors. What a sad and dangerous belief. Everytime I see a Christian defend the murderous god they worship, I'm so thankful I no longer believe this nonsense and doubly thankful that bible-god and the bible itself is just a myth.

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Dialogue is futile. 

Aik, We have heard all your arguments.  Jesus apostles were told to leave places that would not recieve the word, and shake the dust off their feet as they left.  Why are you staying around?

[Astreja]

2 hours ago, aik said:

Now the earth is filled with sins, evil of various kinds. And God pointed a day when He will judge everyone according to His justice. Not a single sinner will enter the Heaven. It will not be the second flood, but it will be the end of this earth. Like it or not.

 

Aik, I believe with close to 100% certainty that no one at all will enter heaven.  I believe that literally everyone, with no exceptions -- including Jesus -- eventually dies and stays dead.  Forever.  No thought.  No awareness.  No belief.  No worship.  No pleasure or pain.

 

I believe that you are wasting the only life you will ever have.  Your beliefs may have made your life in this world better, but they will not save you from your eventual death.

 

You will never see heaven.

 

And neither will anyone else.

 

And that's why you're so unconvincing - because what you're offering us is just a sad old fiction.

[walterpthefirst]

6 hours ago, aik said:

Good morning to everyone,

 

Look what happens here. Do you see how difficult sometimes is to give a straight answer to a plain question? And it is not because of lack of understanding of education. Everyone here is smart enough. It is because of hypocrisy in hearts, like it or not. Because when we start being straight before justice, then look what happens. In the same way you give answers to God in your hearts. The only straight answer was of TABA's. and sure I agree with explanation given there about punishment fitting the crime and that a punishment is not for enjoy.

 

The question was about justice.

 

In terms of God, He is holy, absolutely holy. We want it or not. Our Creator has no sin. The Bible says that the payment for or against sin is death. Because there is no place for sin. It means that everyone who sinned must be brought to death. Adam was told about that. So what we have, after Adam everyone followed satanic lies and sinned. They did not follow God. The only guy who was trying to follow God was Abel, and he was killed. 

 

Gen.6:11

11Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and full of violence. 12And God looked upon the earth and saw that it was corrupt; for all living creatures on the earth had corrupted their ways.

 

Everyone sinned. There is not one righteous. According to God's law everyone should be put to death. 

 

Do you think people before flood were stealing, murdering, or saying lies? What kind of sin did they do? I don't know what actions the did, but obviously their faith was of Adams, Adamic faith which leads to sin, i.e. to death. 

 

Judgement of Sodom, Cananites, Amalekites, Philistimlians was not because they were holy. Their practices were anti-human. They were having uncontrolled sex in their places of worship (I don't know the right word for it in English, please excuse me), they were bringing their babies to burn to their gods, the lived filthy way of life. Did you see a statue of Baal? It was a big penis (historians say), to which they worshiped to. Ultimately God should have made the second flood to clean the mankind from the surface of the earth, in my judgment. 

 

So what is wrong with the justice of God? Sure we living here and now will have some difficulties of understanding God's law. For example in my nation when an elder man enters the room, a young man if he is sitting in the room he should stand up to greet him. I don't know if it is applicable for you. For example our parents should approve a choice of their son for marriage. Isn't it not strange for you? Some nations have a practice of childhood marriage agreement concluded between families, when their children grow up they will marry to each other. Isn't it strange? I mean that there are many things that we can find strange or inapplicable. For example we observe that in some nation it is almost lost the respect to elders and to parents. But other people save it. So, for those who do not practice such respect to parents (doing what they say, caring about them, giving first pace in many places to a parent etc) it is very strange and it seems wrong when they see others doing it. 

 

DB brought some passages from Bible, that if I heard that one nation did that to another, surely I would say the same, that it is a genocide. Of course it is. But if we take into account that a Creator judges the sinful nation which should have been judged long before that, we can see sinful practices, we can see rebellion against God's law, so He as the Creator, has the right to judge. Like it or not. 

 

The problem here is that some people now do not want to see anyone over them to judge them. Because a man strives to sin, and avoids paying for it. 

 

Now the earth is filled with sins, evil of various kinds. And God pointed a day when He will judge everyone according to His justice. Not a single sinner will enter the Heaven. It will not be the second flood, but it will be the end of this earth. Like it or not. 

 

But obviously you do not believe it, like Cain's descendants. You are going to be perished in terms of God. If you do not believe, what we are talking about? What are you waiting from God? If you do not believe how do you want to be sure about God? You will always be doubting and asking and trying to convince one another that there is no God. 

 

If after reading this, you wish that I answer your particular questions my friends, please tell me. I will. 

 

But if you believe that there is God absolute, creator, judge over all. Then let us find what the Bible tells else. 

 

In some Chinese translations of the Bible it is very interesting to see that the first verses of John 1:1, are translated like "In the beginning was dao, and the dao was with God and the dao was God". Instead Logos they used the word close to Logos, Dao is more clear for Chinese people.

 

I mean that here can be some people just disappointed in Jesus because they saw something in churches, pastors or heard to the educated liars. I don't really know what you were taught in your churches, but I am afraid of it sometimes. Once I have said that we here think that many churches lead to a wrong way, saying wrong things, not what the Bible teaches but what the people want to hear. Of course we want that Jesus gives us health, money, friends, families and electricity, technology. But these things are not life. People lived without electricity centuries ago, and they were happy with God. Right now many people suffer lack of comfort, and technological means, but the continue living with God keep loving amidst the death. Some of them have lost their families but the did not lose their love to God and to people. Because they have Jesus in their hearts. And they know that death is not the end of their life, but the start.

 

Jesus is the life. He is the Tree of Life, that whoever eats the fruit of it, he will live forever. 

 

Best regards,

from aik with love of Jesus.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for confirming that we have answered your question, aik.

 

Now please answer mine.

 

Did the repentance of the Ninevites change god's mind?

[aik]

13 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Thank you for confirming that we have answered your question, aik.

 

Now please answer mine.

 

Did the repentance of the Ninevites change god's mind?

Yes, sure. Their repentence did changed God's mind.

[walterpthefirst]

1 minute ago, aik said:

Yes, sure. Their repentence did changed God's mind.

 

Then that directly contradicts Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfil it?

 

According to this passage human repentance cannot change god's mind.

 

 

[aik]

32 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Then that directly contradicts Numbers 23 : 19

 

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfil it?

 

According to this passage human repentance cannot change god's mind.

 

 

of course not. I will answer this my friend later. I am at my work right now.

[walterpthefirst]

18 minutes ago, aik said:

of course not. I will answer this my friend later. I am at my work right now.

 

Thank you.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

14 hours ago, aik said:

DB brought some passages from Bible, that if I heard that one nation did that to another, surely I would say the same, that it is a genocide. Of course it is. But if we take into account that a Creator judges the sinful nation which should have been judged long before that, we can see sinful practices, we can see rebellion against God's law, so He as the Creator, has the right to judge. Like it or not. 

AIK,

 

Your indoctrination and blind faith are astonishing. Your a perfect example of a person who has given up all reasoning in faith to a God. This is the exact same type of faith that Islamic suicide bombers have. They believe that they will be rewarded for their actions by Allah. It is no different. 

 

The scriptures I showed you were stories of God ordering the death of children and infants. And even laughing at infants getting smashed against stones. Laughing AIK!! That God would laugh at his enemies babies being smashed against stones! That is not a loving God. But this doesn't cause you to question your faith. You only justify it in your mind, because of your religious indoctrination. Your the one who is blind to see the truth here. Not us.

 

Here is how I see it. Killing everyone, including men, women, and children was a barbaric practice 4000 years ago. Back then to a less civilized people it was an acceptable practice. And it insured that no one was left to retaliate. There were no children left to grow up and avenge their fathers or mothers. This was directly reflected in their beliefs about God. They felt that their God would revel in his peoples success just as much as they did. 

 

Fast forward 2000 years to the time of Jesus and you'll see a different God. This is when the Loving God comes in. The God that is building a heaven for his people. With mansions and streets of gold. In the old testament God wants them to conquer everyone in Canaan. In the new testament Christians are taught to be meek and lowly. To endure persecution and torture. To turn the other cheek and to forgive. 

 

This is not the old testament God. The new testament God is a drastically different God than the old testament God. Honestly the God of Islam is more like the old testament God than the Christian God. 

 

@walterpthefirst has already brought up the scripture that God doesn't change. So why has God obviously changed between the old and new testament? This is a contradiction. The bible is full of them. 

 

14 hours ago, aik said:

me), they were bringing their babies to burn to their gods, the lived filthy way of life. Did you see a statue of Baal? It was a big penis (historians say), to which they worshiped to.

 

I think your mistaken. This is Ba'al 

 

https://www.kchanson.com/PHOTOS/baal2.html

 

Maybe you're getting confused with the ancient dildos archeologists have found. 

 

https://allthatsinteresting.com/history-of-the-dildo

 

It's kind of funny really. But it makes sense. I doubt there were very many men in ancient times that cared whether the woman had an orgasm or not. So they made a solution for that. 

 

No need to reply to this post AIK. If you can't see how horrible the biblical God is from what we've said so far. Your probably not going to see it at all. I'm going to post again later tho. Im wanting to discuss some of the problems about creation myth with you. 

 

Dark Bishop

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Ok @aik,

 

Moving away from the tower of babel let's look at creation. This is another very obvious myth in the bible. There is no better place to start than the beginning I suppose. 

 

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

Notice here that God created "light" before he created the sun. These primitive writers didn't understand that the sun is the source of the light that makes day. It even details the daily cycle of day and night without the sun even being created yet. "The evening and the morning were the first day".

 

Genesis 1

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

 

Here is where he creates the Dome. Most Christians assume he is talking about our atmosphere as we know it today. But that isn't so. He makes a bubble in the midst of the waters here. He called this firmament Heaven. If you will notice in verse 7 there is water above the firmament, above heaven. 

 

This explained to them why the sky was blue. And why water came from the sky. They did not understand the water cycle. Look at the flood of Noah. 

 

Genesis 7

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

 

The windows of heaven were opened and the fountains of the deep broken up. Water came from above and below them. This is a direct link to genesis 1 here. Tell me AIK. Is this how rain happens? Do windows get opened up in heaven for water to be let in? 

 

Genesis 1

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

 

Now we are on the third day. The sun still hasn't been created. And now God is causing plantlife to grow. Without the sun. I think we all know that it takes the sun to make plants grow. Notice how it puts emphasis on the seeds. That will come into play later. 

 

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

 

So now we are on the fourth day and finally God creates the sun, moon, and stars. But notice where he hangs them. In the firmament. Beneath the waters above the firmament. They thought the sun, moon, and stars were inside of earths atmosphere. 3-4000 years ago they didn't know what we know now. They were building this myth to explain the world as THEY knew it. 

 

Here is a picture of what we got so far.

Is this the earth you know AIK? Both of our countries have traveled to outer space. Did they find water up there? Or the vacuum of space?

 

Genesis 1

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

 

This is life as it has been for the past hundred thousand years on this planet. Birds, whales, mammals, and in the next chapter humans. But what about the dinosaurs and the vastly different ecosystem that existed during their time when there were no humans? Why doesn't creation reflect dinosaurs? We all know they were before us. 

 

Genesis 1

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

Here are where the seeds come into the argument. Notice that God gave man every herb bears seed a day tree bearing seed. He expected them to plant those seeds. It is even reflected in god's curse on Adam in genesis 3. 

 

Genesis 3

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

This is an agricultural creation. What I mean by that is the writers of this myth lived in a time that people planted crops to survive. This does not reflect reality. We as a species have only been farming for about twelve thousand years. Before that we we hunted and foraged for our food. 

 

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/development-agriculture

 

This is fact. They have excavated and found a massive amount of evidence that humans depended on a hunting and foraging lifestyle for over one hundred thousand years prior to the advent of farming.

 

Yet in genesis. They are already expected to farm from the very beginning. 

 

As I said before AIK, this is a myth. And it is a myth based on primitive knowledge of the world and their surroundings. It is these very questions that lead me to leave the church and later after seeing more irrefutable evidence I quit believing all together. 

 

Have a nice day,

 

Dark Bishop

[aik]

Hello everyone.

 

I will answer soon starting with db, Walter and a statement about disbelief.

[◊ Weezer ◊]

On 11/28/2022 at 11:10 AM, DarkBishop said:

Ok @aik,

 

Moving away from the tower of babel let's look at creation. This is another very obvious myth in the bible. There is no better place to start than the beginning I suppose. 

 

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

Notice here that God created "light" before he created the sun. These primitive writers didn't understand that the sun is the source of the light that makes day. It even details the daily cycle of day and night without the sun even being created yet. "The evening and the morning were the first day".

 

Genesis 1

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

 

Here is where he creates the Dome. Most Christians assume he is talking about our atmosphere as we know it today. But that isn't so. He makes a bubble in the midst of the waters here. He called this firmament Heaven. If you will notice in verse 7 there is water above the firmament, above heaven. 

 

This explained to them why the sky was blue. And why water came from the sky. They did not understand the water cycle. Look at the flood of Noah. 

 

Genesis 7

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

 

The windows of heaven were opened and the fountains of the deep broken up. Water came from above and below them. This is a direct link to genesis 1 here. Tell me AIK. Is this how rain happens? Do windows get opened up in heaven for water to be let in? 

 

Genesis 1

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

 

Now we are on the third day. The sun still hasn't been created. And now God is causing plantlife to grow. Without the sun. I think we all know that it takes the sun to make plants grow. Notice how it puts emphasis on the seeds. That will come into play later. 

 

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

 

So now we are on the fourth day and finally God creates the sun, moon, and stars. But notice where he hangs them. In the firmament. Beneath the waters above the firmament. They thought the sun, moon, and stars were inside of earths atmosphere. 3-4000 years ago they didn't know what we know now. They were building this myth to explain the world as THEY knew it. 

 

Here is a picture of what we got so far.

Is this the earth you know AIK? Both of our countries have traveled to outer space. Did they find water up there? Or the vacuum of space?

 

Genesis 1

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

 

This is life as it has been for the past hundred thousand years on this planet. Birds, whales, mammals, and in the next chapter humans. But what about the dinosaurs and the vastly different ecosystem that existed during their time when there were no humans? Why doesn't creation reflect dinosaurs? We all know they were before us. 

 

Genesis 1

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

Here are where the seeds come into the argument. Notice that God gave man every herb bears seed a day tree bearing seed. He expected them to plant those seeds. It is even reflected in god's curse on Adam in genesis 3. 

 

Genesis 3

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

This is an agricultural creation. What I mean by that is the writers of this myth lived in a time that people planted crops to survive. This does not reflect reality. We as a species have only been farming for about twelve thousand years. Before that we we hunted and foraged for our food. 

 

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/development-agriculture

 

This is fact. They have excavated and found a massive amount of evidence that humans depended on a hunting and foraging lifestyle for over one hundred thousand years prior to the advent of farming.

 

Yet in genesis. They are already expected to farm from the very beginning. 

 

As I said before AIK, this is a myth. And it is a myth based on primitive knowledge of the world and their surroundings. It is these very questions that lead me to leave the church and later after seeing more irrefutable evidence I quit believing all together. 

 

Have a nice day,

 

Dark Bishop

 

   (I have used all my reaction symbols for the day) Thanks for pointing out the agriculture problem.  That had not occured to me before.  And hunters and gatherers didn't likely make bread either.  Assuming bread had the same meaning then as it does now.

[aik]

On 11/28/2022 at 8:10 PM, DarkBishop said:

Ok @aik,

 

Moving away from the tower of babel let's look at creation. This is another very obvious myth in the bible. There is no better place to start than the beginning I suppose. 

 

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

Notice here that God created "light" before he created the sun. These primitive writers didn't understand that the sun is the source of the light that makes day. It even details the daily cycle of day and night without the sun even being created yet. "The evening and the morning were the first day".

 

Genesis 1

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

 

Here is where he creates the Dome. Most Christians assume he is talking about our atmosphere as we know it today. But that isn't so. He makes a bubble in the midst of the waters here. He called this firmament Heaven. If you will notice in verse 7 there is water above the firmament, above heaven. 

 

This explained to them why the sky was blue. And why water came from the sky. They did not understand the water cycle. Look at the flood of Noah. 

 

Genesis 7

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

 

The windows of heaven were opened and the fountains of the deep broken up. Water came from above and below them. This is a direct link to genesis 1 here. Tell me AIK. Is this how rain happens? Do windows get opened up in heaven for water to be let in? 

 

Genesis 1

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

 

Now we are on the third day. The sun still hasn't been created. And now God is causing plantlife to grow. Without the sun. I think we all know that it takes the sun to make plants grow. Notice how it puts emphasis on the seeds. That will come into play later. 

 

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

 

So now we are on the fourth day and finally God creates the sun, moon, and stars. But notice where he hangs them. In the firmament. Beneath the waters above the firmament. They thought the sun, moon, and stars were inside of earths atmosphere. 3-4000 years ago they didn't know what we know now. They were building this myth to explain the world as THEY knew it. 

 

Here is a picture of what we got so far.

Is this the earth you know AIK? Both of our countries have traveled to outer space. Did they find water up there? Or the vacuum of space?

 

Genesis 1

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

 

This is life as it has been for the past hundred thousand years on this planet. Birds, whales, mammals, and in the next chapter humans. But what about the dinosaurs and the vastly different ecosystem that existed during their time when there were no humans? Why doesn't creation reflect dinosaurs? We all know they were before us. 

 

Genesis 1

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

Here are where the seeds come into the argument. Notice that God gave man every herb bears seed a day tree bearing seed. He expected them to plant those seeds. It is even reflected in god's curse on Adam in genesis 3. 

 

Genesis 3

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

This is an agricultural creation. What I mean by that is the writers of this myth lived in a time that people planted crops to survive. This does not reflect reality. We as a species have only been farming for about twelve thousand years. Before that we we hunted and foraged for our food. 

 

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/development-agriculture

 

This is fact. They have excavated and found a massive amount of evidence that humans depended on a hunting and foraging lifestyle for over one hundred thousand years prior to the advent of farming.

 

Yet in genesis. They are already expected to farm from the very beginning. 

 

As I said before AIK, this is a myth. And it is a myth based on primitive knowledge of the world and their surroundings. It is these very questions that lead me to leave the church and later after seeing more irrefutable evidence I quit believing all together. 

 

Have a nice day,

 

Dark Bishop

Fairy tales for kids. But i notice that you have a talent to write fantasy books. 

 

You try to understand God's wisdom with your miserable human brain. It is impossible. You are deceived by lies and you are lying to other. 

 

From the very start you are wrong. Light was long before the sun and it is without the sun, my friend. The Sun is not the only source of light. Basically the Sun is a small source of light, like a lamp on a ceiling of your room. 

 

 

If we see these rays come from outside of our galaxy. 

 

 

We cannot see them by our eyes here. But it doesn't mean it does not exist. Only using instruments will show it. 

 

 

Look at the origin of it. Also pay attention to "interstellar gas composed mostly of hydrogen", which is water when it is connected with oxygen2.

Also pay attention to the fact here that the scientist in order to find the origin of the rays they have to reconstruct much of the history of the cosmic rays. 

 

The scientists try to figure out that supernovas (new born stars) produce these rays. But read on a bottom: ray production and acceleration remains unclear.

 

So many years scientists explore these rays, but they have no idea where it comes from. And notice that about 150 years ago no one scientist would say that this was true. Because they had no idea about this. And how many things are there in the Cosmos and in the world which scientist still do not know. If we told them about 200 years ago, that there is light without the Sun, guess their reaction. On such reaction they burned and killed such scientists like Galileo, Kopernicus and many others. Because those guys claimed that the Earth was a globe, by the way they were christians. And those who killed them, also claimed to be christians. But if we disclose this topic why false christians killed true christians we will walk astray from our topic here. 

 

Dear Bishop, it was only one part of your claims, about the light. But I am sure that on other parts the scientists also have some idea but they do not have the whole picture. In many things they have to presume something. And it is normal, but presumption must be considered so.

 

And if you are wrong in this, I am sure that you are wrong in others too. You build a building in your speach upon the crushed foundation. What do you think will happen to the building? What kind of heaven did God created first, and is it the same as the firmament mentioned later? What were the waters above the earth and how distant were they from the surface of the earth? What was actually before the flood which changed the whole climate and global situation, and of course an athmosphere. Scientists can only guess. There are evidence that dinosaurs lived together with people. And the Behemoth mentioned in the Bible book of Job may be that dinasaur. There are proofs that billions of years are calculated with wrong methods. I have just shown how scientists try to fix the origin of the rays by reproducing or reconstruction of the history. And when it enters into our study books in schools, we do not see that they reconstruct it, but they say for sure it is so.

 

Science is good, but it is limited like your knowledge. It is better to believe God and to have science. Because atheism is also a religion. A religion of denying God's existence.

 

I prayed for you and I have a word for you: You take off your shoes and put them on your bed. Which means that you try to convince yourself in what you are now, and you believe that you are on the right path, but when it comes to "sleep" you will find your soul in dirt. But I hope and pray that your repentance comes earlier, and God has mercy on you, and save you from perish, my dear friend. 

 

I am going to answer also on your previous post. I will speak about my indoctrination and your indoctrination. But have no time right now. Maybe it would be better for you to wait for answers then to respond. You decide. 

 

Glory to the name of Jesus Christ, and hope for your salvation.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

20 minutes ago, aik said:

Glory to the name of Jesus Christ, and hope for your salvation

 

Eh, I've been there and done that. I expect you to go a different way. I always interpreted the first light to be Jesus. Because he was the light of the world.

 

John 8

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

You seem a little aggravated about it. And by your response you had to really stretch and try to figure your way around it. I did that too. I had an apologetic for the biblical time frame myself. And that was how I justified the dinosaurs because the scripture about the behemoth just wasn't good enough. That could have been and elephant or a mammoth for all I know. There certainly weren't any descriptions of pterodactyl or anything like that.

 

2 Peter 3

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

I interpreted this scripture to mean that for God time wasn't the same. So I felt he could have taken billions of years to make the earth perfect for us. So he may have taken billions of year when he created land animals. Maybe he tried out the dinosaurs and decided that wasn't good for us. But hell maybe he thought they were cool. I know i do. And then at some point he created us. 

 

But then I had issues with the time line of the biblical genealogies. I forgot exactly how long since creation they all add up to. But its something like 6 to 7 thousand years. And thats just impossible. Human civilizations have been around so much longer than that. And we aren't on "God's time frame". The Indians were in America 10,000 years ago. 

 

So you see. You can make up your twists on science to explain what doesn't make sense in the bible. But ultimately it isn't going to fit either. 

 

But cosmic rays. That's a new one for me. I've never heard of it. I guess I'll check it out tho. But I'm pretty sure that if the sun goes out. That neither Gods great light during the day. Nor his lesser light during the night are going to shine. As the lessr light isn't a light, its the moon. And it reflects the suns light. 

 

But they didn't know that when they wrote it on papyrus or parchment all those years ago. 

 

I guess I will look up the information about cosmic rays while you make your next reply. Then we can talk further about all the other stuff you still can't explain. 

 

But seriously AIK. I don't know your situation. Can you tell me a little about who you were before you met jesus? What do you feel that you did that would have deserved hell?

 

Thanks,

 

Dark Bishop 

[aik]

49 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

 

Eh, I've been there and done that. I expect you to go a different way. I always interpreted the first light to be Jesus. Because he was the light of the world.

 

John 8

12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

You seem a little aggravated about it. And by your response you had to really stretch and try to figure your way around it. I did that too. I had an apologetic for the biblical time frame myself. And that was how I justified the dinosaurs because the scripture about the behemoth just wasn't good enough. That could have been and elephant or a mammoth for all I know. There certainly weren't any descriptions of pterodactyl or anything like that.

 

2 Peter 3

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

I interpreted this scripture to mean that for God time wasn't the same. So I felt he could have taken billions of years to make the earth perfect for us. So he may have taken billions of year when he created land animals. Maybe he tried out the dinosaurs and decided that wasn't good for us. But hell maybe he thought they were cool. I know i do. And then at some point he created us. 

 

But then I had issues with the time line of the biblical genealogies. I forgot exactly how long since creation they all add up to. But its something like 6 to 7 thousand years. And thats just impossible. Human civilizations have been around so much longer than that. And we aren't on "God's time frame". The Indians were in America 10,000 years ago. 

 

So you see. You can make up your twists on science to explain what doesn't make sense in the bible. But ultimately it isn't going to fit either. 

 

But cosmic rays. That's a new one for me. I've never heard of it. I guess I'll check it out tho. But I'm pretty sure that if the sun goes out. That neither Gods great light during the day. Nor his lesser light during the night are going to shine. As the lessr light isn't a light, its the moon. And it reflects the suns light. 

 

But they didn't know that when they wrote it on papyrus or parchment all those years ago. 

 

I guess I will look up the information about cosmic rays while you make your next reply. Then we can talk further about all the other stuff you still can't explain. 

 

But seriously AIK. I don't know your situation. Can you tell me a little about who you were before you met jesus? What do you feel that you did that would have deserved hell?

 

Thanks,

 

Dark Bishop 

I was expecting that question. Sure I will share with you what Jesus did in my life. But right now for the case saving my tim, i am on my work now, shortly give an answer to your post.

 

My point is that one who made me believe in Jesus, or convincing me that Jesus is true God is not the scientific issues in Bible, is not my knowledge or knowledge of the scientists, is not reading many books, is not people who told me that and so on. Jesus did saved me from my sins, He washed me froom all of my sins and gave a victorious life in Him with peace, with abundance of life, He changed all my world from inside, He brought a new nature into me, a new faith, and gave His power to overcome the sinful life and the power of sin, to serve God in holyness and righteousness. I am doing righteous thing not to be saved, bur because it lives inside me, as inside everyone who beleieves in Jesus. We are not doing good to be saved, nor we do good by forceing ourselves, but it is in our nature, nature of believers. So the one who convined me that Jesus is true it is He Himself, because He did in me what He had promised so many years ago through His apostles. 

 

And all the talks about emotion... I know what they mean, and I know such problem in christianity, many christians are not saved even, they just have emotions, feelings or whatever. I will share with you my storie firends. I am here for that purpose. But first I am going to reply to your previous post Dear Bishop. Because it should be left without answer. 

 

By the way you were wrong saying that God had His own time different from ours. God has no time, He is eternal and in Heaven there is no time. 

 

Scientists lie too much, especially atheists lie more. Because they have no faith that a lie is a sin, and it comes from satan.