The tower of Babel

[aik]

2 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Not at all.  I simply want to you to tell the truth.

 

You wrote this... People who burnt Kopernicus they thought that the Earth was flat basing it by the Bible i think, 

 

I showed you objective evidence that Copernicus was not burned at the stake.  He died peacefully.  Then you switched to Galileo, saying... 

 

About kopernicus I could be mistaken. Maybe it was galileo. But anyway from school I knew about inquisition.

 

But Galileo died peacefully too and was not burned at the stake.

 

So you were wrong, twice.

 

And I'd like you to admit that because doing that is telling the truth.

You are right it was Giordano bruno. I searched google. Lol.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 hour ago, aik said:

If one takes the Bible to study astronomy or chemistry, then Yes. I guess he would imagine the origin of universe in the way you said. Maybe the second one will be able to imagine more crazy picture of it. But if I take the Bible to find God, I know that there is no idea what was the first heaven verse 1, and the firmament, they are obviousely not the same. What happened between creating heaven in the beginning and creating earth. What happenned between creating the Sun, and the Moon and starts, and what was the order of creation. What distance was from the surface of the earth to waters above the heaven. And again, which heaven? People who burnt Kopernicus they thought that the Earth was flat basing it by the Bible i think, but they forgot that according to the Book the Earth was hanged on nothing and the Lord was sitting on the circle of the globe (maybe iam wrong in wording, excuse me). Those people maybe were reading the Bible many times and because of lack of information they had no idea what do the words "hanged on nothing and a circle of globe" mean. There are many questions. 

 

But it never disproves faith in God. Because faith in God is not about scientific knowledge. It is about unification with Christ. About knowing God, a spiritual being. Having the life which God gives. And having eternal life with Jesus Christ. About death and resurrection. And for these things I have spiritual evidence from God.

 

For example my family saw what kind of changes God did in my behaviour, way of thinking, attitude to them and to others. But there is an evidence unseen for anyone. Only me that know it, and out from it all other evidences seen to others come out.  It is the evidence of the Holy Spirit. And this is the strongest evidence world ever had. 

 

When my wife started to believe in Jesus, repented, it was something new for me to see her after 10 years of living together. She was changed at once and is continuing it. She started avoid every untruthfullness, lies, unrighteousness. Not because she was afraid to go to hell. Not at all. But because she started to hate sin. She started to be ashamed of wearing such clothe which led do desire. I never forced her to do anything with it. But I saw that God's spirit helped her to overcome sin, not to be afraid of some cases in our life we had. 

 

These are evidences we can see together with trees, flowers, water, flame, an infant growing is evidence too. But the core evidence is the one which is unseen but living. And it cannot be broken because it is God's work. 

 

I am with Jesus not because I have scientific evidences. guys. But because I have more and the stronger evidence, which is the blood of Jesus Christ. Here I heard that some people try to prove Jesus never was. It is close to craziness taking into account what God was telling us from the very beginning, and what He did in Jesus, and what He is doing now. 

 

God is alive. Praised be the name of Jesus Christ.

 

I'll reply to this later. Have to take my daughter to the doctor again. 

[walterpthefirst]

11 minutes ago, aik said:

You are right it was Giordano bruno. I searched google. Lol.

 

Thank you.

[walterpthefirst]

13 minutes ago, aik said:

Look what I have for you, Walter. I am not here to provide you evidences. I am here to let Jesus catch you out of the devil's hands by his power.  I am here to let Jesus crush your current foundation in front of your eyes by truth. 

 

If Jesus fails to do it, then you will fail having freedom from your slavery. 

 

Then I'm confused, aik.

 

 

An hour ago you wrote...

 

Yes, sure. I was not trying to impress you by objective evidence. You asked me if I have evidence. Yes I do.

 

But now you say that you are not here to provide the evidence.

 

 

So, you have objective evidence, but you refuse to provide it.

 

Is that true?

 

 

 

[aik]

1 minute ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Then I'm confused, aik.

 

 

An hour ago you wrote...

 

Yes, sure. I was not trying to impress you by objective evidence. You asked me if I have evidence. Yes I do.

 

But now you say that you are not here to provide the evidence.

 

 

So, you have objective evidence, but you refuse to provide it.

 

 

No. I have no objective evidence for you. I invite you to be saved by faith in Jesus  only. And only after it God will give you evidence, better and stronger than those which you have now. This is what the Bible teaches.

[walterpthefirst]

9 minutes ago, aik said:

No. I have no objective evidence for you. I invite you to be saved by faith in Jesus  only. And only after it God will give you evidence, better and stronger than those which you have now. This is what the Bible teaches.

 

Then I do not think that anyone here will listen to your subjective evidence, aik.

 

Do you understand that without objective evidence we have no independent way of assessing the truth of your claims?

 

You believe that you are telling the truth, but how can we know for certain that you are?

 

To find out for sure we would need a source of evidence that is independent of you.

 

That is what objective evidence is.

 

If you cannot give such evidence then why should we believe you?

 

 

 

 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

10 minutes ago, aik said:

No. I have no objective evidence for you. I invite you to be saved by faith in Jesus  only. And only after it God will give you evidence, better and stronger than those which you have now. This is what the Bible teaches.

Again AIK, many of us here at ExC have already had the experience you speak of. We have already went through the change you and your wife have had. We also felt at the time we were experiencing it, that it was Jesus changing us through his holy ghost. Likewise as you noted your wife stopped dressing in clothes that were provocative. I had a similar experience with my favored music. Among other things. Ill list some off. 

 

I stopped listening to rock music because I felt it was unholy.

 

I stopped smoking because I felt it was unholy,

 

I stopped using curse words because I felt they were unholy.

 

I did my best to stop having sex or even masturbating because I felt it was unholy. I actually wasted two and a half years of my sexual prime remaining celibate because I believed it was the right thing to do according to the Bible and the Holy ghost. 

 

I stopped looking at porn because I felt it was unholy. 

 

At one point I thought even thinking a perverted thought about someone I found attractive was unholy.

 

One time I fasted for a full seven days. Not eating anything. I only allowed myself liquids. Because I thought the Holy ghost wanted me to fast. I thought I would be blessed. In reality it sent my body into starvation mode and it has been very hard for me to lose weight since that time.

 

All of this I did because I felt that the Holy Ghost was telling me it was unholy. I wanted to have a close personal relationship with Jesus and I knew (at the time) that sin would at the very least damage my relationship with Jesus. 

 

Everything you are saying about your evidence. Many of us have already experienced. These are examples of the types of changes you believe Christ makes in someone who believes. But all of these changes are a result of the teachings contained within the Bible. It is in no way separate and apart from the Bible. 

 

Let me ask you this. How many times have you been in church service and something was preached on that you felt revealed something you needed to change about yourself. Or how many times have you been reading the bible and read a scripture and realized there was something you needed to change?

 

Thanks 

 

DB

[aik]

3 minutes ago, DarkBishop said:

Again AIK, many of us here at ExC have already had the experience you speak of. We have already went through the change you and your wife have had. We also felt at the time we were experiencing it, that it was Jesus changing us through his holy ghost. Likewise as you noted your wife stopped dressing in clothes that were provocative. I had a similar experience with my favored music. Among other things. Ill list some off. 

 

I stopped listening to rock music because I felt it was unholy.

 

I stopped smoking because I felt it was unholy,

 

I stopped using curse words because I felt they were unholy.

 

I did my best to stop having sex or even masturbating because I felt it was unholy. I actually wasted two and a half years of my sexual prime remaining celibate because I believed it was the right thing to do according to the Bible and the Holy ghost. 

 

I stopped looking at porn because I felt it was unholy. 

 

At one point I thought even thinking a perverted thought about someone I found attractive was unholy.

 

One time I fasted for a full seven days. Not eating anything. I only allowed myself liquids. Because I thought the Holy ghost wanted me to fast. I thought I would be blessed. In reality it sent my body into starvation mode and it has been very hard for me to lose weight since that time.

 

All of this I did because I felt that the Holy Ghost was telling me it was unholy. I wanted to have a close personal relationship with Jesus and I knew (at the time) that sin would at the very least damage my relationship with Jesus. 

 

Everything you are saying about your evidence. Many of us have already experienced. These are examples of the types of changes you believe Christ makes in someone who believes. But all of these changes are a result of the teachings contained within the Bible. It is in no way separate and apart from the Bible. 

 

Let me ask you this. How many times have you been in church service and something was preached on that you felt revealed something you needed to change about yourself. Or how many times have you been reading the bible and read a scripture and realized there was something you needed to change?

 

Thanks 

 

DB

Many times. What is wrong with it? Yes, the Bible teaches us, sure. You are right . if you say that the Bible is wrong just because you see contradictions between it and science, I think you do not know everything right now. 

 

What was wrong with you when you stopped doing wrong things? Was it burdening? If yes, than you just was doing it not by faith but by serving a law. If it was not burdening but it was victorious for you, than I do not understand what you have found here. 

 

Where did Jesus deceived you? I do not believe that the core reason of leaving Jesus was contradictions about creation. Do not fool me please. Where did you disappointed in Jesus?

[aik]

36 minutes ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Then I do not think that anyone here will listen to your subjective evidence, aik.

 

Do you understand that without objective evidence we have no independent way of assessing the truth of your claims?

 

You believe that you are telling the truth, but how can we know for certain that you are?

 

To find out for sure we would need a source of evidence that is independent of you.

 

That is what objective evidence is.

 

If you cannot give such evidence then why should we believe you?

 

 

 

 

 

If I am telling you that the apple in my hand is awesome sweet and juicy, how are you going to know it without tasting it? Tell me about objective evidences which will give you a taste of it to know it for sure if it is sweet or not. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

1 minute ago, aik said:

What was wrong with you when you stopped doing wrong things? Was it burdening? If yes, than you just was doing it not by faith but by serving a law. If it was not burdening but it was victorious for you, than I do not understand what you have found here. 

No at the time it wasn't a burden. I felt like I was doing the right thing and that I was close to Jesus because of it. 

 

1 minute ago, aik said:

Many times. What is wrong with it? Yes, the Bible teaches us, sure. You are right . if you say that the Bible is wrong just because you see contradictions between it and science, I think you do not know everything right now. 

 

The reason it matters is that the Holy Ghost was in you before you heard that sermon or read that scripture. Before that you had no idea you were doing anything wrong and had no guilt in your conscience about what you were doing. If the Holy Ghost is what leads you to these changes then you should have known without even reading or hearing it preached. These are changes through indoctrination. Not changes through the spirit. 

 

And this can get very oppressive in some churches. As long as a preacher can use the scripture to justify a teaching in a sermon. Then most if not all the members of the church will believe that what he said was true. And this will lead them to changing their life because of it. Here is an example from my life as a Christian.

 

After I had my "salvation experience" the pastor at my church taught that only hymnals and Southern Godpel music was godly. He taught that contemporary Christian and Christian rock were of Satan. For years I only listened to Southern gospel.

 

(which is probably exclusive to the United states, specifically the South Eastern United States.)

 

Then I met Ex Mrs. Bishop who did listen to other forms of Christian music. At first I told her it wasn't Godly like I had been taught. Then I listened to it and felt like Gods spirit was moving through me while listening to it. This lead me to believe my pastor was wrong. But up until that point I felt that the Holy spirit had told me that other forms of Christian music were of Satan. It wasn't the Holy spirit. It was my pastor and his personal beliefs that he was pushing onto the congregation. 

 

This happens over and over in churches and can be very, very, dangerous if the wrong person starts using the Bible. Thats how cults are formed. 

 

Here is one of the worse instances of this type of religious abuse. 

 

https://www.britannica.com/event/Jonestown

 

23 minutes ago, aik said:

Where did Jesus deceived you? I do not believe that the core reason of leaving Jesus was contradictions about creation. Do not fool me please. Where did you disappointed in Jesus?

 

I had already seen scriptures that were confusing to me. Some we have already discussed but there were some personal instances in my life that joined with those questions to lead me to where I am today. 

 

Now I know that it wasn't Jesus who disappointed me but the Bible as a whole. One of the first instances was after a divorce where my wife had cheated on me. I felt that the Holy spirit had lead me to be with her. I saw the signs and I prayed, and prayed, and prayed that God would soften her heart toward me and that if she was having an affair that she would stop. In the bible Jesus says that he would do anything we asked of him to glorify his father in heaven. I felt that this was a small task for someone so powerful that loved me so much he would die for me. 

 

The other man's wife came to my house after my wife left me a good bye letter. She told me what had been going on. By this time my wife had already let her car go into default on the payments. A week after she left it was repossessed by the bank. I lost a house and had to file for bankruptcy which ruined my credit for years. I was a child of God and he did not keep his promise in my mind. And for this I was very angry for a long time.

 

After this I began to noticed far more unanswered prayers than those that were answered. And those that were answered were very loose "miracles ". Nothing that couldn't be explained by modern science. 

 

In essence my mind was beginning to open. 

 

Then I saw the moon through a telescope and I knew the earth was at the very least not young. And all those craters were physical evidence that could possibly mean the big bang was true. This lead me to start searching for more answers. This is when I made some of my best apologetic answers to keep my faith going. Like your cosmic rays. 

 

But eventually I found that the evidence against the bible outweighs the evidence for the bible. I had to face the facts. I had been inadvertently deceived by other indoctrinated people who believe. Just as you have been deceived. 

 

 

Dark Bishop

[◊ Krowb ◊]

1 hour ago, aik said:

If I am telling you that the apple in my hand is awesome sweet and juicy, how are you going to know it without tasting it? Tell me about objective evidences which will give you a taste of it to know it for sure if it is sweet or not. 

 

Three rebuttals:

 

1.  This is a false choice, we can all see, touch, compare, and taste an apple.  Gods are not like apples.

 

2.  People here have told you they believed, prayed fervently, led people to Christ, and have "tasted" of this god.  This is a site of ex-christians - not cradle to grave atheists.  We found it to be an invisible, undetectable apple.  Quite the same as no apple at all.  People seem to have similar experiences regardless of the particular relgious persuasion.

 

3.  A real apple can be tested or measured for sugar and water content, then compared against items of similar size and ratio for which both sweetness and juiciness are known quantities and then stated as an objective fact, where in comparison your apple lay on the continuum of both sweetness and juiciness.  An individual can then rank order all non-apple items for their personal scales and then the apple will slot neatly into that personal scale.

 

In fact, there exists such a way to measure "sweetness" without biting at all:  http://www.ag-usa.net/brix_test_meaning.htm

[◊ Weezer ◊]

Jesus can be "sweet", and his teaching of loving neighbors as self is an evidence based ideaology that is good for society, if you live by it.   The Holy Spirit can be sweet, and may be a good thing, if it leads you in a positive direction.  Magic mushrooms can be sweet and have helped many people.  

 

But it all has to do with the effect on your brain.  It is sweet because your belief and your behavior are in sync.  

 

I am very thankful that aik has a sweetness that leads in a positive direction, whether it came from the concept of Jesus, or from Krishna, or from a unicorn.  Wherever it came from, it has been programmed into his brain.  

 

 

[◊ Weezer ◊]

5 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Jesus can be "sweet", and his teaching of loving neighbors as self is an evidence based ideaology that is good for society, if you live by it.   The Holy Spirit can be sweet, and may be a good thing, if it leads you in a positive direction.  Magic mushrooms can be sweet and have helped many people.  

 

But it all has to do with the effect on your brain.  It is sweet because your belief and your behavior are in sync.  

 

I am very thankful that aik has a sweetness that leads in a positive direction, whether it came from the concept of Jesus, or from Krishna, or from a unicorn.  Wherever it came from, it has been programmed into his brain.  

 

 

 

And then there are those who have found "sweetness" in the belief that flying planes into tall buildings will get them 7 virgins in heaven.

[aik]

39 minutes ago, Weezer said:

 

And then there are those who have found "sweetness" in the belief that flying planes into tall buildings will get them 7 virgins in heaven.

Hello Weezer. Here I want to show you the difference between Jesus Krishna and Muhammad. Only Jesus was acting with the Holy Spirit. That is why Jesus taught holiness and he lived it, but Muhammad wrapped adultery in a nice package and called it a temporary marriage, than gave it to his servants. And these servants are now saying that a temporary marriage is in no way an adultery. This is the Satan's spirit. Deceptful spirit. It leads to satisfy filthiness and lust. I have not learnt much about Krishna but I am sure that he had not got Holy Spirit also. It means that if we look at his life and behaviour we would find that he was merely a normal man. And that is all. But Jesus was perfect in his life. And no man can be perfect. Everyone sinned, Jesus did not. Does it make sense?

[aik]

1 hour ago, Krowb said:

 

Three rebuttals:

 

1.  This is a false choice, we can all see, touch, compare, and taste an apple.  Gods are not like apples.

 

2.  People here have told you they believed, prayed fervently, led people to Christ, and have "tasted" of this god.  This is a site of ex-christians - not cradle to grave atheists.  We found it to be an invisible, undetectable apple.  Quite the same as no apple at all.  People seem to have similar experiences regardless of the particular relgious persuasion.

 

3.  A real apple can be tested or measured for sugar and water content, then compared against items of similar size and ratio for which both sweetness and juiciness are known quantities and then stated as an objective fact, where in comparison your apple lay on the continuum of both sweetness and juiciness.  An individual can then rank order all non-apple items for their personal scales and then the apple will slot neatly into that personal scale.

 

In fact, there exists such a way to measure "sweetness" without biting at all:  http://www.ag-usa.net/brix_test_meaning.htm

Hey hey hey, calm down. My question was not addressed to you first. Then if you want to answer then answer to my question, without all this garbage you said out of the issue. Read attentively my question.

[aik]

2 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

No at the time it wasn't a burden. I felt like I was doing the right thing and that I was close to Jesus because of it. 

 

 

The reason it matters is that the Holy Ghost was in you before you heard that sermon or read that scripture. Before that you had no idea you were doing anything wrong and had no guilt in your conscience about what you were doing. If the Holy Ghost is what leads you to these changes then you should have known without even reading or hearing it preached. These are changes through indoctrination. Not changes through the spirit. 

 

And this can get very oppressive in some churches. As long as a preacher can use the scripture to justify a teaching in a sermon. Then most if not all the members of the church will believe that what he said was true. And this will lead them to changing their life because of it. Here is an example from my life as a Christian.

 

After I had my "salvation experience" the pastor at my church taught that only hymnals and Southern Godpel music was godly. He taught that contemporary Christian and Christian rock were of Satan. For years I only listened to Southern gospel.

 

(which is probably exclusive to the United states, specifically the South Eastern United States.)

 

Then I met Ex Mrs. Bishop who did listen to other forms of Christian music. At first I told her it wasn't Godly like I had been taught. Then I listened to it and felt like Gods spirit was moving through me while listening to it. This lead me to believe my pastor was wrong. But up until that point I felt that the Holy spirit had told me that other forms of Christian music were of Satan. It wasn't the Holy spirit. It was my pastor and his personal beliefs that he was pushing onto the congregation. 

 

This happens over and over in churches and can be very, very, dangerous if the wrong person starts using the Bible. Thats how cults are formed. 

 

Here is one of the worse instances of this type of religious abuse. 

 

https://www.britannica.com/event/Jonestown

 

 

I had already seen scriptures that were confusing to me. Some we have already discussed but there were some personal instances in my life that joined with those questions to lead me to where I am today. 

 

Now I know that it wasn't Jesus who disappointed me but the Bible as a whole. One of the first instances was after a divorce where my wife had cheated on me. I felt that the Holy spirit had lead me to be with her. I saw the signs and I prayed, and prayed, and prayed that God would soften her heart toward me and that if she was having an affair that she would stop. In the bible Jesus says that he would do anything we asked of him to glorify his father in heaven. I felt that this was a small task for someone so powerful that loved me so much he would die for me. 

 

The other man's wife came to my house after my wife left me a good bye letter. She told me what had been going on. By this time my wife had already let her car go into default on the payments. A week after she left it was repossessed by the bank. I lost a house and had to file for bankruptcy which ruined my credit for years. I was a child of God and he did not keep his promise in my mind. And for this I was very angry for a long time.

 

After this I began to noticed far more unanswered prayers than those that were answered. And those that were answered were very loose "miracles ". Nothing that couldn't be explained by modern science. 

 

In essence my mind was beginning to open. 

 

Then I saw the moon through a telescope and I knew the earth was at the very least not young. And all those craters were physical evidence that could possibly mean the big bang was true. This lead me to start searching for more answers. This is when I made some of my best apologetic answers to keep my faith going. Like your cosmic rays. 

 

But eventually I found that the evidence against the bible outweighs the evidence for the bible. I had to face the facts. I had been inadvertently deceived by other indoctrinated people who believe. Just as you have been deceived. 

 

 

Dark Bishop

How many years have you been out of Christ now?

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

15 minutes ago, aik said:

How many years have you been out of Christ now?

I have been fully deconverted for almost six years. 

 

Before that I had left the church for a couple of years because of the contradictions I was beginning to see in the bible itself. And the continued contradictions I noticed between what scripture said and what my church taught. It was not permitted to preach or teach anything that wasn't authorized by the church. But that wasn't an issue with me. I felt that they were very biblical in their approach to teachings within the church. But I still had questions. Like the tower of babel and dinosaurs. I went to one of the elder pastors to answer these questions like I was supposed to. But he wasn't even able to answer them. Like you he basically told me that somethings we just need to have faith about. 

 

This wasn't good enough for me. There are to many things that we have discovered as a species that doesn't line up with the Bible. So I left the church. It wasn't a dramatic thing. I just quietly left. I was honest later when someone would ask. I told some that there were just questions I needed to take time to figure out on my own. It was also convenient at this time that we had to close the closest church we had to where I lived. So I used that as an opportunity to leave the church as well. 

 

A couple of years later my oldest son announced that he was athiest. It was at this time I decided it might be time to go back to church. And I knew my oldest was very into science. So I decided to look up some proof. I knew that archeologist had discovered a multitude of information about the American Indians by excavations at ancient civilizations. So I decided to find out what they had discovered about the exodus of the isrealites from Egypt. In my mind I was looking for proof to show my son. And was shocked that there was no proof. I also found out that archeologists started out using the Bible as a guide to find evidence for it. They went to all the areas listed in the exodus story and found nothing. There was only one Christian archeologist that made claims with absolutely no hard evidence. Just a bunch of theories and twists of scripture to offer. And some crappy pictures at the bottom of the red sea. 

 

This was the last thing I needed to make my deconversion. I had believed all the years I was a Christian that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. And if the story of Moses and the Exodus was not true. That meant the very foundations of christendom were broken. That is when I completely lost my belief in the bible. 

 

Since then I have researched several different avenues of secular information about the bible. Which has made me grow to actually like the bible again. Now I can read it and understand why the contradictions are there and why. I prayed for years to know the truth of Gods word and that prayer was only answered by not believing in the God I prayed that prayer to. 

 

Sincerely,

 

Dark Bishop

[◊ Krowb ◊]

@aik,

 

I understand that English not your first language, but you did ask for objective evidence and I have provided a method of measuring the sweetness and juiciness of your apple that can be applied by anyone, at anytime, and anywhere.

 

If you are meaning to ask something deeper, then please ask the actual question instead of dressing it up in an analogy.

 

Your question boils down to:  "how can you know if you never tried" -> we all did try, or at least try as best we could given the book and our understanding of the book.  Your approach is very close to saying none of us were ever "true christians" elsewise we could not help but be like you and your wife.

 

If we had the wrong approach, what is the correct approach?

[walterpthefirst]

4 hours ago, aik said:

If I am telling you that the apple in my hand is awesome sweet and juicy, how are you going to know it without tasting it? Tell me about objective evidences which will give you a taste of it to know it for sure if it is sweet or not. 

 

How do I know that you have an apple in your hand, aik?

 

Before I want to taste the apple I first have to know that you really do have an apple in your hand.

 

Can you tell me how I can know that when you are in Russia and I'm in England?

 

I'm not going to eat the apple until you can give me objective evidence that you are holding it.

 

Your promises won't do.

 

I have to have the evidence before I eat.

 

Not after.

 

 

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, aik said:

Hello Weezer. Here I want to show you the difference between Jesus Krishna and Muhammad. Only Jesus was acting with the Holy Spirit. That is why Jesus taught holiness and he lived it, but Muhammad wrapped adultery in a nice package and called it a temporary marriage, than gave it to his servants. And these servants are now saying that a temporary marriage is in no way an adultery. This is the Satan's spirit. Deceptful spirit. It leads to satisfy filthiness and lust. I have not learnt much about Krishna but I am sure that he had not got Holy Spirit also. It means that if we look at his life and behaviour we would find that he was merely a normal man. And that is all. But Jesus was perfect in his life. And no man can be perfect. Everyone sinned, Jesus did not. Does it make sense?

 

Why should we believe anything that you claim to be true when you cannot give us objective evidence of your truth?

[walterpthefirst]

2 hours ago, aik said:

Hey hey hey, calm down. My question was not addressed to you first. Then if you want to answer then answer to my question, without all this garbage you said out of the issue. Read attentively my question.

 

Aik,

 

Please don't insult Krowb by calling his words garbage.  They make excellent sense.

 

Please don't tell other members who they can respond to and who they can't. 

 

You have no authority to do that.  We members are all equal in this forum.  Your Christian beliefs do not give you any special authority, rights or privileges.  If one member want to answer a question that was not addressed to them they can do so.  If you don't like this then ask them politely to wait.  But you cannot order another member to wait.

 

Please do not behave like a school teacher, telling us how to read your questions.  As I said earlier, in this forum you have no authority or right to behave like this.  We are all equals here.

 

 

[Rev R]

4 hours ago, aik said:

If I am telling you that the apple in my hand is awesome sweet and juicy, how are you going to know it without tasting it? Tell me about objective evidences which will give you a taste of it to know it for sure if it is sweet or not. 

Sorry, gang, I gotta get in on this.
I presume that you are hygienic enough to not offer an apple that you have already bitten into (Let's face it. That's nasty and you and I don't know each other like that.). Therefore, you don't know if this apple is actually what you claim it is. Sure you may have eaten one just like it, but you have no experience of this apple, just an assumption. No proof, only the sales pitch: "Best apple you've ever eaten! Guaranteed! You don't want an apple? You don't like apples? You're allergic to apples? Well my apple will fix all that if you just try it! How? Just eat it and find out." 

 

"Just eat it and find out." That's the key to the whole bit. Obviously, you are here to sell Jesus and cannot prove anything which you speak about through mere human rhetoric so how about a demonstration of divine power. Let the awesome voice of your god flow through you and change the heart of someone in this discussion. Here's the catch: you only have five words to do it. 

 

[midniterider]

I've tasted the apple. Wasn't that great in the beginning and after a while it just tasted nasty. Why do you want us to taste it again? 

[Astreja]

6 hours ago, aik said:

No. I have no objective evidence for you. I invite you to be saved by faith in Jesus  only. And only after it God will give you evidence, better and stronger than those which you have now. This is what the Bible teaches.

 

Then it is impossible for me to become a Christian.

 

I have absolutely no religious faith.  Earlier in my life, on several occasions I did try to believe in religious things but my brain automatically rejected things that lacked empirical evidence or that sounded absurd.

 

I've never been able to do anything more than play along with religious ceremonies, and "fake it till you make it" simply does not work for me.  It's always been just "fake it" and no faith has ever come of it, and at this point in my life I refuse to lie to myself anymore.  If a religious doctrine is steaming, fetid bullshit and makes no logical sense - which is how I see Christianity - I accept that that is how it is, and don't hope for anything more.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

2 hours ago, walterpthefirst said:

 

Aik,

 

Please don't insult Krowb by calling his words garbage.  They make excellent sense.

 

Please don't tell other members who they can respond to and who they can't. 

 

You have no authority to do that.  We members are all equal in this forum.  Your Christian beliefs do not give you any special authority, rights or privileges.  If one member want to answer a question that was not addressed to them they can do so.  If you don't like this then ask them politely to wait.  But you cannot order another member to wait.

 

Please do not behave like a school teacher, telling us how to read your questions.  As I said earlier, in this forum you have no authority or right to behave like this.  We are all equals here.

 

 

In his defense, he may be getting overwhelmed a bit. He's being pulled a few different ways across multiple threads. He is also going to need to go back to my previous post and explain the other issues I brought up besides the issue with light before the sun (AKA Cosmic rays for AIK). That was just one of the several issues I pointed out. And those aren't even all of em. He may need some time to respond to everyone.