On Changing Minds

[Guest end3]

Ouroboros...Im going to throw out a suggestion to you, just as food for thought in your situation.

 

Firstly, I have no idea why god didn't answer your prayer that morning out the shower for you...however, when you didnt get the answer, now this is just hypothetical here, cause I dont know you or your life. Im just offering a viewpoint, maybe, just maybe your heart started to become hard and closed off to god, when he didnt come through under your time schedule, until now...you have completely done a 360 turn on him with your back to him. I know this can happen, cause it happened to me. I guess and this is only pure conjecture, Im not making any accusations at you. I got to a point of instead of demanding God to be with me, I turned back towards him, and my heart became softer. meh, just a thought. Our lives are completely separate, and far be it for me to analyse your life.

Well, the problem is, I don't believe God exists. So how could I turn to God, to an imaginary thing/being? Isn't it up to God now? Why is it that for faith to work, we have to accept fantasies?

 

This is how it sounds to me:

 

Why don't you believe in Santa? Did you harden your heart so much that Santa can't come and show himself to you anymore? Perhaps Santa exists, but he refuse to prove his existence to you because you decided to hate him?

 

The turning point in my life came after a very long time while my faith was dwindling. I prayed over all those years, and nothing improved. At first I was just hoping that God existed. I wanted God to exist. I prayed over those years a lot. And read the Bible. Went to Church. Nothing helped. One day I realized that my hope and wait was in vain. God had the chance to help me for a long time. And now, it's true, I've come to a point where God needs to do more than just suggest the possibility of perhaps he could exist if I imagined it hard enough. How disney-ish!

 

Read Romans 12:3 and tell me where faith comes from.

 

Less faith didn't make them any less part of the body. Do you struggle with continuing faith Hans?...you don't have to answer if you would rather not.

[Guest end3]

[No, we have free will. God choose the world in which we would freely choose.

This is a popular Christian myth.

If you're a Bible believer, you're in no position to make this outlandish claim.

Predestination is clearly taught in Rom 8, Rom 9 and Eph 1:4-5,11.

At least some people are predestined to their roles and decisions.

The Bible also indicates that God manipulates people to make certain choices.

 

Do you believe God has hardened hearts after the advent of Christ?

[agnosticator]

Do you believe God has hardened hearts after the advent of Christ?

 

Nah. God was just being a hard head. He only chose those with soft minds.

[Ouroboros]

Less faith didn't make them any less part of the body. Do you struggle with continuing faith Hans?...you don't have to answer if you would rather not.

Not anymore.

 

I'm very convinced now. I actually feel at peace knowing that religion is just a imagination. It's just sad that so many need religion to be happy.

 

But if God does exist, and God would choose to prove his existence somehow, and that proof would be convincing enough, I wouldn't be against it. I'm waiting.

[centauri]

[No, we have free will. God choose the world in which we would freely choose.

This is a popular Christian myth.

If you're a Bible believer, you're in no position to make this outlandish claim.

Predestination is clearly taught in Rom 8, Rom 9 and Eph 1:4-5,11.

At least some people are predestined to their roles and decisions.

The Bible also indicates that God manipulates people to make certain choices.

 

Do you believe God has hardened hearts after the advent of Christ?

I don't see a statute of limitations that restricts Godly manipulation to the Old Testament.

[Franko47]

Many of us even before and during de-conversion tried to turn back to "God" numerous times.

 

I looked for feedback, reassurance from fellow Christians beyond just childish Babble quotes, and other indicators that might just be subtle, in my consciousness, heck even in my imagination.

 

Unfortunately, it was like the realization that the babysitter had gone home. The Disney movie was over, the real world lay all around me. Even now, I try to remain receptive to the possibility that a higher power might signal me even in an altered state (music, dreaming, a lonely walk at night) but I'm afraid not.

 

It's time for some of you Christians to come to terms with the fact that maybe it's God who has turned out the lights. Reason unknown.

 

I notice that Christians (and likely other religious people) always want to believe that in the case of the Ex-believer, or the deconvert, or the atheist, that somehow the fault lies with "our thinking or attitude". Any "criticism" of the divine or spiritual process is laid at our feet with the usual rhetoric about "giving up", or being "mad at Jesus", or we're just being impatient and childish.

 

This I see as the almost impassable gulf of misunderstanding between believers and ex-believers, (or non-believers) this inability to accept the fact that.....

 

WE TRIED EVEN HARDER THAN YOU

[Kathlene]

Many of us even before and during de-conversion tried to turn back to "God" numerous times.

 

I looked for feedback, reassurance from fellow Christians beyond just childish Babble quotes, and other indicators that might just be subtle, in my consciousness, heck even in my imagination.

 

Unfortunately, it was like the realization that the babysitter had gone home. The Disney movie was over, the real world lay all around me. Even now, I try to remain receptive to the possibility that a higher power might signal me even in an altered state (music, dreaming, a lonely walk at night) but I'm afraid not.

 

It's time for some of you Christians to come to terms with the fact that maybe it's God who has turned out the lights. Reason unknown.

 

I notice that Christians (and likely other religious people) always want to believe that in the case of the Ex-believer, or the deconvert, or the atheist, that somehow the fault lies with "our thinking or attitude". Any "criticism" of the divine or spiritual process is laid at our feet with the usual rhetoric about "giving up", or being "mad at Jesus", or we're just being impatient and childish.

 

This I see as the almost impassable gulf of misunderstanding between believers and ex-believers, (or non-believers) this inability to accept the fact that.....

 

WE TRIED EVEN HARDER THAN YOU

 

 

okay, I understand and hear that Franko. Like I said, I was just throwing it out there as a suggestion. I didn't say it in accusation, and I also said I dont know Oroborous' life and what he went through. I just said it cause it was something I had gone through. My bad.

[StevoMuso]

You're going to Hell Stevo.

Hehe. Usual response is, "At least I'll be keeping good company".

 

Today's response: I would much rather go to Hell than oblivion after I die because if Hell exists then the Bible is true and Lucifer sussed out that God is an evil tyrant who practices genocide, infanticide, mass slaughter, slavery etc. (we all know the drill) and I'll join his rebellion any day. Oh well wishing it were true won't make it so

[StevoMuso]

I notice that Christians (and likely other religious people) always want to believe that in the case of the Ex-believer, or the deconvert, or the atheist, that somehow the fault lies with "our thinking or attitude". Any "criticism" of the divine or spiritual process is laid at our feet with the usual rhetoric about "giving up", or being "mad at Jesus", or we're just being impatient and childish.

 

This I see as the almost impassable gulf of misunderstanding between believers and ex-believers, (or non-believers) this inability to accept the fact that.....

 

WE TRIED EVEN HARDER THAN YOU

I LOVE this post. It's probably one of the best I've ever seen in trying to explain to believers how futile their attempts to "reach us" are. Most of us have been there before.

 

But you know, it's great having these discussions (well, I'm enjoying them) with Christians. I almost see End/Kathlene/OrdinaryClay (and the others) as "our" Christians. Maybe they are on this forum because they feel they have a "calling" to reach atheists and they've studied a bit of apologetics. But if they want to hold intelligent debate then they will need to study a LOT more and then we would lose them to truth and reason. And that would almost be a pity.

 

Now I can almost hear our Christians shout in unison, "I am steadfast in my faith. Nothing will move me!" But as Franko implied above THAT WAS EXACTLY what 90% of the Ex-Cs on this forum said at some point in our lives. WE TRIED EVEN HARDER THAN YOU - please try and understand that.

[OrdinaryClay]

No, God knows all potential worlds(moves), and then chooses to actualize one.

Determinism then. Calvin was right.

No, we have free will. God choose the world in which we would freely choose.

 

 

That's circular isn't it? "God chose the world" Yeah, god exercised his free will, but that was never the question. God made the world, from the beginning of time to the end of time, all dimensions, all at once, right? If so, there could be no free will. Ponder that.

 

 

You see humans are myopic because they are used to seeing things only from their perspective. God would see things from all perspectives. We experience time as a gradual pathway from a kind of right angle perspective. Yet god could see it as it really is, a dimension, head on. Thus god wouldn't create just a starting point he would need to create an ending point too. It is the ending point that is the problem with free will.

I have pondered that. Omniscience includes God's logically knowing before any world happens. God's Middle Knowledge allowed Him to choose(because He knew all possible true worlds) the world in which we made our choice. This dose not remove our ability to choose. We all could have freely chosen in any possible world, yet some do not for their own reasons.

 

Here is a short article on the subject.

[OrdinaryClay]

We can make choices and decisions on partial information. We do it all the time. The only criteria is that we understand enough that is relevant to the decision.

 

I know God is the Creator. I know God gave us Salvation through Christ. I know God is Love. I know many other characteristics, and in total they make my decision to worship Him very easy.

 

Ok. Thank you for clarifying. I revise my understanding of your position:

 

1Co 13:12. "In this I trust Him because of who He is. I worship Him" is quoted by you not to emphasize the awesomeness of God being wholly unknowable.

 

You agree that God is unknowable as a whole but you worship God for what you DO know about God (Creator, Love, Salvation), despite the mystery of the big picture. God being wholly unknowable is not a criteria that contributes to your worship and trust. Hence "1Co 13:12. In this I trust Him because of who He is. I worship Him."

 

To paraphrase your interpretation, "In this I trust and worship God because of the stuff I DO know about God that is awesome, even if I don't understand everything about God."

 

Is this an accurate paraphrase of your understanding of 1Co 13:12 and your criteria for trusting and worshiping God? (Also, what does "this" refer to at the beginning of the verse?)

My personal words are "In this I trust Him because of who He is. I worship Him."

 

1Co 13:12

(12) For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall fully know even as I also am fully known.

 

I do choose to worship God despite not knowing all the details of Him or His plan. I worship God because He is the creator, requires it and deserves to be worshiped. Why is this surprising? To worship anything else would be the pit of foolishness. This is why I quoted Joh 6:68. Read the verse in the context in which it occurs.

 

I don't understand where you are going with this, to be honest.

[OrdinaryClay]

Also, I'm still curious about your gender assignment for God. Upon what do you base it?

 

Phanta

Gal 1:3

(3) Grace be to you, and peace from God the Father and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

[My bold]

 

Does that bother you?

[OrdinaryClay]

"In this I trust Him because of who He is. I worship Him"

 

Ha. I see part of my confusion. This isn't a Bible verse. These are your words. The Bible verse is the "seeing through the glass darkly" one.

Okay.

 

Ok, so, you believe that someday (when you die?) you will see fully what is obscure now and it will be good and beautiful. <-- This is the "this" in which you trust and why you worship God. Yes? You believe it based on evidence you see that God 1) is the Creator of all, 2) is loving, and 3) has provided a means for salvation for you. Yes? And for extra measure, you've make it clear that the unknowable stuff about God holds no draw to you. It's not a criteria for your worship. Yes? Is this right? Do I have you now?

 

Phanta

I worship Him now as He is known and revealed. The "unknowable stuff" about God draws me as much as anything I know because I have confidence what is not known will be worthy of worship.

[OrdinaryClay]

After all those years of study one day you just decided it was not true?

As we have all said repeatedly in this thread - it was not a decision. It was more like a revelation - a removal of the blinkers of faith. I didn't "decide" it was not true - I "found out" it wasn't true. There is a HUGE difference.

How many years did it take you to have this "revelation"? What I don't understand is why it happened when it did and not a year earlier for example?

Because before that point I was blinded by my faith - just as you are now. I had some questions that nobody could/would answer and so I did some research. As my knowledge grew, so the deception became less and less until finally the last scales of faith fell from my eyes and I knew I had been deceived. It was traumatic, devastating even, to realize I'd been living and believing in a lie, but uncovering the lie simply set me free of its clutches - it was NOT AS A RESULT of a single decision.

As my knowledge grew and grew my faith and desire to worship Him grew along with it.

[OrdinaryClay]

You don't know what the minimum amount of evil is needed in a world with a maximum amount of salvation given free willed agents. It may well have been the case that God needed to allow a certain amount of evil to optimize the good given our free wills. None of us know the details of this dynamic.

 

This "certain amount of evil" is vast and incomprehensible. This "optimized good" seems to be minimal in comparison to the unnecessary and vast evil. Few are chosen; many are wasted (including animals). Why choose a world full of suffering when things were perfect before the fall? A&E were innocent and naive, with zero knowledge of good/evil (morality). That was heaven. Now we have to put all beings through hell on earth just for a few to go to the heaven A&E already had!

 

Life as an experiment or test for salvation seems to be alot to ask of God's playthings. Better be careful what you choose with your "freewill"!

Adam and Eve made their choice just as we all do. Read my response here along with the article I posted a link to.

 

1Co 10:12

(12) So let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

 

Edit: I had the wrong link.

[OrdinaryClay]

My analogy still holds whether we are talking faith or "Faith", but we can go with your distinction if you like.

 

It starts with evidence. As I've stated many times empirical evidence is not the only form of valid evidence.

So you're saying that your spirituality starts with your rational analysis of evidence, and not a matter of the heart?

I don't know what you mean exactly by a "matter of the heart". I love God. Love is an emotion. I believe and understand Him with my rational faculties. If you are trying to get around to making the point that I hold faith then yes I have faith. My faith is not an irrational faith. It is thought through and deeply considered.

[OrdinaryClay]

[No, we have free will. God choose the world in which we would freely choose.

This is a popular Christian myth.

If you're a Bible believer, you're in no position to make this outlandish claim.

Predestination is clearly taught in Rom 8, Rom 9 and Eph 1:4-5,11.

At least some people are predestined to their roles and decisions.

I think you misunderstand His Omniscience and our free will. You seem to prefer some verses and ignore the larger picture. Clearly the Bible teaches free will and God's ability to choose. God along with humanity has free will. We all have the ability to choose, and at the same time we all have our parts to play in history.

 

Rom 8:30

(30) But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

1Co 10:12

(12) So let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

 

Read my reponse here.

 

 

The Bible also indicates that God manipulates people to make certain choices.

These choices are freely made.

[OrdinaryClay]

Less faith didn't make them any less part of the body. Do you struggle with continuing faith Hans?...you don't have to answer if you would rather not.

Not anymore.

 

I'm very convinced now. I actually feel at peace knowing that religion is just a imagination. It's just sad that so many need religion to be happy.

 

But if God does exist, and God would choose to prove his existence somehow, and that proof would be convincing enough, I wouldn't be against it. I'm waiting.

If you're convinced then why do you have the caveat at the end "But if God does exist". I don't understand that part. That would seem to be a statement from an agnostic. If God does exist do you think He will be pleased in people who spend large amounts of time trying to convince others He does not. I don't understand.

[Brakeman]

 

That's circular isn't it? "God chose the world" Yeah, god exercised his free will, but that was never the question. God made the world, from the beginning of time to the end of time, all dimensions, all at once, right? If so, there could be no free will. Ponder that.

 

 

You see humans are myopic because they are used to seeing things only from their perspective. God would see things from all perspectives. We experience time as a gradual pathway from a kind of right angle perspective. Yet god could see it as it really is, a dimension, head on. Thus god wouldn't create just a starting point he would need to create an ending point too. It is the ending point that is the problem with free will.

I have pondered that. Omniscience includes God's logically knowing before any world happens. God's Middle Knowledge allowed Him to choose(because He knew all possible true worlds) the world in which we made our choice. This dose not remove our ability to choose. We all could have freely chosen in any possible world, yet some do not for their own reasons.

 

Here is a short article on the subject.

 

That link was so bad it gave me diarrhea..

 

It's really simple, Because time is a dimension, god made the past, present, and future all at once. Thus he created the after point of the decision. He could know all the possibilities he wants, but he made only one outcome.

 

If the outcome is predetermined, i.e. already made, then it is not a true decision. Since man cannot change a future that has already been constructed, he has no free will.

[Ouroboros]

If you're convinced then why do you have the caveat at the end "But if God does exist". I don't understand that part. That would seem to be a statement from an agnostic.

Of course I have to keep an open mind. But I'm quite convinced that religion is just a sham.

 

I strongly believe your God does not exist, but read the word "very convinced" as "I'm 99.99% convinced." (The word "very" means strongly, but not absolute.)

 

It would benefit you to stop seeing the world in absolutes. That's one of the problems with religious people, they tend to see the world, but also language, as on/off, true/false, one/zero, black/white.

 

So when someone says: "I'm very convinced," they immediately jump to the conclusion that the person makes a statement that they somehow "know" something rather than it being a matter of grade.

 

If God does exist do you think He will be pleased in people who spend large amounts of time trying to convince others He does not.

If God exists, and he wanted to make sure people knew about his existence, he would be more occupied trying to do that instead of worrying about those who argued one or the other side.

 

Why do you think God only exists in words? Obviously God can't prove himself in action. From all I can see, all the Christians who come here argue that God exists, using words, using language, using arguments, but no one can provide something tangible.

 

Do you want me to believe? Then pray that God does a miracle. Something that wows me.

 

But you won't. Because you should not test God, right?

 

Your religion is exactly the same as believing in those con artists who claim having psychic powers. Their powers only work if you "believe." If you are a scientist trying to disprove them, the magical powers disappears.

 

Your God is a sham. Prove me otherwise.

 

Secondly, I'm not trying to convert you away from your religion. Look at the evidence. This website is for people DO NOT BELIEVE. This is the only place I participate in dialogue online. YOU came here, and YOU are the one trying to CONVERT US. So what the fuck do you mean that God would care about people trying to de-convert the silly Christians? Well, obviously not us! Because YOU are the FUCKTARD who came here to convert US. Do I need to say it again? Or is it too far above your IQ?

 

Anyway, I accept and tolerate that people have beliefs of whatever kind. The only time I engage in debate with Christians is on this website. A website for non-Christians, and Christians come in and try to convince us about their belief. So that's where the problem starts. I accept your belief, but you don't accept mine. You come to my turf to prove me wrong, and you accuse me of trying to de-convert you?

 

It's very clear that you are a very deceptive person. Lying and twisting the issue to "win" people to your cult. Sorry, but I don't join cults for fun. You keep your brainwashed lunacy to yourself.

 

I don't understand.

That's your problem. It's your brain deficiency, not mine.

[Shyone]

 

The Bible also indicates that God manipulates people to make certain choices.

These choices are freely made.

You are going to keep repeating this lie until it's true, right?

 

Come on, you can't be so ignorant that English has stumped you.

 

1. Make assertion

2. When assertion is soundly refuted, go to #1

 

You are a little Christ-bot with no mind, following a program that is so simple and basically dishonest that it requires no thought.

 

CHRISTIAN GUIDE TO BRAIN TREATMENT:

 

1. Wash

2. Rinse

3. Repeat.

[Ouroboros]

You are going to keep repeating this lie until it's true, right?

 

Come on, you can't be so ignorant that English has stumped you.

 

1. Make assertion

2. When assertion is soundly refuted, go to #1

It's obvious that Clay has not arrived to his faith through reason. He's denying reason each time it gets to the sticky point.

 

It's all emotional for him, not rational.

 

Don't you love it how they indiscriminate and blatantly lie about things? Saying that they have "investigated" their belief before they started to believe, yet when they are presented by the questions they overtly spin and twist everything to make it fit.

[Shyone]

You are going to keep repeating this lie until it's true, right?

 

Come on, you can't be so ignorant that English has stumped you.

 

1. Make assertion

2. When assertion is soundly refuted, go to #1

It's obvious that Clay has not arrived to his faith through reason. He's denying reason each time it gets to the sticky point.

 

It's all emotional for him, not rational.

 

Don't you love it how they indiscriminate and blatantly lie about things? Saying that they have "investigated" their belief before they started to believe, yet when they are presented by the questions they overtly spin and twist everything to make it fit.

I should write an algorithm regarding how the Christian handles problems with omniscience.

 

I think I'll do that... Tonight.

 

In three dimensions, it would look like a painting from M.C. Escher.

[oddbird1963]

 

I should write an algorithm regarding how the Christian handles problems with omniscience.

 

I think I'll do that... Tonight.

 

In three dimensions, it would look like a painting from M.C. Escher.

 

I'll be looking for that ! Get busy!

[Antlerman]

My analogy still holds whether we are talking faith or "Faith", but we can go with your distinction if you like.

 

It starts with evidence. As I've stated many times empirical evidence is not the only form of valid evidence.

So you're saying that your spirituality starts with your rational analysis of evidence, and not a matter of the heart?

I don't know what you mean exactly by a "matter of the heart".

Then you don't understand.

 

I love God. Love is an emotion.

God is an emotion? "God is Love". "Love is an emotion". "God is an Emotion".

 

If you don't understand Love, and you don't understand the heart, then how do you claim to understand what Faith is?

 

What I hear is Faith = a belief through reason.

 

I believe and understand Him with my rational faculties.

 

FANTASTIC!! Give the man the prize.

 

Now, I hate the rhetoric that says a religious belief is delusion, because it is a way too political oversimplification of the human phenomenon of Faith and symbolic representations. But this, is the first time anywhere I will say this. This statement is in fact delusional.

 

You betray deep ignorance.

 

If you are trying to get around to making the point that I hold faith then yes I have faith. My faith is not an irrational faith. It is thought through and deeply considered.

And understands nothing.