Salvation A Free Gift?

[Deva]

[edit]

 

Yes I am being saved from my old self and death.

 

I believe everyone has this life in them and many that are unaware this life is what they are experiancing chalk it up to other things, like you all do. I really do see the love that is resident in humanism as coming from God and manifesting thru mankind whether they believe it is Him or not.

He said He would pour out His spirit on all flesh

 

I believe God is reconciled to all mankind as we speak, not all mankind recognizes and walks in the abundance this provides for them, hence those that do recognize it are experiancing now the more abundant life, but all are experiancing His life in some degree. When we then reconcile to this Great God that has reconciled Himself to us, then that abundant life kicks in, at least to me.

 

I believe that God will not settle for less than All mankind knowing this great love

 

kept

 

Sojourner, I hope you don't mind when I say that I just don't understand where you are coming from. All this sounds well and good, but how did you arrive at your undersanding of god? It is really not Biblical, and pardon me, but it sounds unreal. The god as presented in the Bible is a god of "love" and also one of judgment and holiness. I would say, in particular, judgment, which you have omitted from your description of god. A lot of what you are saying in your posts sounds like something from the New Age rather than anything even remotely Christian.

 

A few questions for you:

 

Do you refer to yourself as a Christian? Knowing that probably the majority of people calling themselves Christian do not share the same understanding, if in public someone you didn't know well asked you your religion, would you identify yourself as Christian?

 

What happens to those who fail to recognize in this lifetime the "abundant life" as you describe it?

 

Maybe you answered it elsewhere, but let me ask you this question again: Do people who do not perceive that they have the type of salvation you are discussing also have life after death?

 

How did you arrive at your understanding of god and how do you know your god is real?

[Grandpa Harley]

Deva,

 

She's mad as a bucket of weasels over a low fire, that's why... and seems to be some strange cult rather than Universalist, since her stance seems to rely on personal direct revelation in terms of the bible rather than any objective reality.

[Deva]

Deva,

 

She's mad as a bucket of weasels over a low fire, that's why... and seems to be some strange cult rather than Universalist, since her stance seems to rely on personal direct revelation in terms of the bible rather than any objective reality.

 

Yeah Gramps, I don't know why I keep asking these folks to clarify their positions in an effort to make sense out of them, when they have all manufactured their own gods out of their minds anyway. I just need to face the facts - THEY JUST MADE IT UP. I guess I have been reading too much Buddy Ferris.

[sojourner]

Honestly I didnt think anyone would be that interested in why I believe what I believe here. I stumbled on this website during a search for something totally accidently, read one of the posts debunking hell and damnation and thought wow, these people have came to some of the same conclusions I have but they just took it further to there being NO God.

 

I am going to leave you with a couple of links ok

 

Im not sure why you all have this section cause I do get the feeling you dont really want to converse with christians at all and from what I read I sure dont blame you a bit, frankly I dont want to converse with fundamentalists either, maybe thats just my perception but it seems there is alot of hurt in many of the folks here that stems from bad church experiances from what I read. This is also very common in universalists and 99 percent of them have left the organized churches altogether.

 

Anyways, I will bow out, read some but not bother you all with posting

 

You really confuse me alot in that you dont give any credibility to the bible,then use it to prove your points- but out of respect Ive tried to respect that and not throw verses out there when talking. You also dont accept anything subjective as being at all even possible and why should any of us but in fact that is outside the bible all the proff a christian has to offer for what they believe. So you cut any possible tools out of the picture then say , prove to me......

 

I cant prove God to anyone.........Im not here too. I was or rather stayed here to learn more about how you went the same path I did, letting go of a vengeful God and belief in eternal torment but ended up as a believer that there is NO God.......I wanted to know how you got there where as I got where I am. And as I said before let you all know there are christians that also dont believe in eternal torment.

 

But the last thing I would want to do is add any hurt, or be a pain in your butts

 

so here is two links that explain what I believe in a nutshell if anyone is interested

 

if Im not allowed to post links please take them out by all means and if anyone wants them they can pm me for them

 

The Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes

http://hopebeyondhell.net/page5.html

 

Hope beyond Hell

http://hopebeyondhell.net/index.html

 

I have really enjoyed getting to know many of you

 

I am going into lurk mode, just read here and there see if I can glean some and learn

 

sojourner

[white_raven23]

but it seems there is alot of hurt in many of the folks here that stems from bad church experiances from what I read.

 

A bad experience is a bad experience. It's not why people leave the religion.

 

You really confuse me alot in that you dont give any credibility to the bible,then use it to prove your points- but out of respect Ive tried to respect that and not throw verses out there when talking..

 

We use the bible to point out how fallible it is....and christians are supposed to believe the bible, yet few have actually read it themselves. They have these warm and fuzzy ideas of their religion they got from the pulpit, and so they just cannot understand why anyone would be opposed to their religion. Christians who claim to have read the bible usually have only cherry-picked verses, taking them out of context from the story they've been drawn from, or taken them to mean something that opposes the grammatical meaning of the words they use.

 

You also dont accept anything subjective as being at all even possible and why should any of us but in fact that is outside the bible all the proff a christian has to offer for what they believe. So you cut any possible tools out of the picture then say , prove to me......

Um...yes. Real evidence is not subjective. You don't get anecdotal sugary stories from DNA. Subjective "proof" relies on emotion. Emotion is a product of the brain. It affects perception. It is NOT objective.

[Deva]

Honestly I didnt think anyone would be that interested in why I believe what I believe here. I stumbled on this website during a search for something totally accidently, read one of the posts debunking hell and damnation and thought wow, these people have came to some of the same conclusions I have but they just took it further to there being NO God.

 

Maybe you should have read a little bit more. We have not all come to some of the same conclusions.

 

As already stated, you confuse us a lot too. By saying there isn't any hell over and over, don't you give a credibility to the Bible yourself? If you don't believe it or accept its reality, why are you continually harping on its nonexistance?

 

I don't know why anyone should accept someone elses ideas on god without any proof just because they say its so.

 

Your privilege to leave or stay if you like. We are not hurt.

[Kat22]

My point about "to lie is to be a liar" is a reference to how the "Way of the Master" guys think. Cameron and whats-his-name they say if you lie once, then you are a liar (equated to pathological liar) which is extremely riddiculous in my opinion, but the result from such a message they're preaching is exactly that, if you tell me one lie, it means you will always lie to me. That's how those guys thinks, and they are spreading their "gospel" to many people (and they are spreading many lies baked into it, like untrue "facts" about science and evolution).

 

If a person commits murder, what are they? How many times does a person need to kill someone before they are a murderer? How many times does a rapist need to rape someone? Or a child molester need to molest a child? How far do we want to this?

 

Who decides the rules that you live by? How do you determine the scale of right and wrong? Do you even believe in absolute good or bad? If you do not believe in absolutes then surely right/wrong good/bad is irrelevant. With this said if someone seeks to commit a crime and are busted sentenced and jailed/damned then who's wat is right? The criminal or the judge/law?

 

As for the rest, I am opening a new thread in order to respect the original intentions of the one who started this one. It's called the Big Bang (or Boom... or Squirt... or... whatever) and I will be posting it shortly. If you would like to continue, I will see you there

[Ouroboros]

If a person commits murder, what are they? How many times does a person need to kill someone before they are a murderer? How many times does a rapist need to rape someone? Or a child molester need to molest a child? How far do we want to this?

But there you go. How many times do you have to lie become a liar? Since you lied once, it makes you a liar then. And should anyone forgive you for it?

 

A person who kills someone by accident is a serial killer to you. That's is extremely awful attitude. It's a shame that this country is going towards the dark ages again.

 

A woman can change her mind during consensual sex, says "No", and start to fight back, and the man never have time to stop, that is also rape. Do you really consider that man to deserve to be guilty of a lifelong stamp of sex abuser and rapist?

 

When it comes to child molesters, I'm on your side. They need to be put away to protect the kids.

 

The rules of how things are to be viewed are not as black and white as you portray them to be.

 

Who decides the rules that you live by? How do you determine the scale of right and wrong? Do you even believe in absolute good or bad?

No. I don't believe in an absolute good or absolute evil. Good and evil is what we make it to be. It's a concept us humans have established and live by, based on evolutionary development and game theory. We have become the arbitrators and dividers of good and evil. We are the forbidden fruit.

 

If you do not believe in absolutes then surely right/wrong good/bad is irrelevant.

No, it's not irrelevant because the absolutes aren't there. Electricity is the effect of relative forces, and yet it exists and yet it's valid and relevant. You're argument is typical false black-and-white Christian mentality and you can't understand because you're infected by the religious virus.

 

With this said if someone seeks to commit a crime and are busted sentenced and jailed/damned then who's wat is right? The criminal or the judge/law?

The jury. The peers of the accused. That's civil right system for you. The judge doesn't convict the accused, it's your friends from the street. Your neighbor, your family, your boss, your kids, the lady in the grocery store, they all are your judge. The "judge" on the bench is only to seal the judgment as a representative of the law. But the law is to be interpreted by the peers, it's not absolute.

 

Do you know about the term "manslaughter"? What is the difference in killing of a manslaughter and a murder? Is a man convicted of manslaughter also a murderer?

[sojourner]

Honestly I didnt think anyone would be that interested in why I believe what I believe here. I stumbled on this website during a search for something totally accidently, read one of the posts debunking hell and damnation and thought wow, these people have came to some of the same conclusions I have but they just took it further to there being NO God.

 

Maybe you should have read a little bit more. We have not all come to some of the same conclusions.

 

As already stated, you confuse us a lot too. By saying there isn't any hell over and over, don't you give a credibility to the Bible yourself? If you don't believe it or accept its reality, why are you continually harping on its nonexistance?

 

I don't know why anyone should accept someone elses ideas on god without any proof just because they say its so.

 

Your privilege to leave or stay if you like. We are not hurt.

 

Well I went and read the piece in the rules for the Testimonies forum area and it was saying that alot of folks are coming out of real hurt from religion and I just thought , sheeeeeesh I should have of course thought that my presence here might add to that. I wouldnt want to do that. I happen to really care about people, athiests are just people to me like all the rest of us.

 

Absolutely noone should accept anyones ideas that was my point. My relationship with God is mine. I cant prove it to anyone here and wasnt out to try. Its subjective, its my own experiances, noone should believe them, they have to have their own.

 

Besides the hurt and pain of religion I am gathering that the other reasons many are Ex-christians boil down to how the bible contradicts itself in many places, how a good God does not fit at all with the OT God YHWH and eternal torment in hell, correct?

 

well thanks, I wasnt going to leave. I just felt, in posting wouldnt christians just raise old feelings or hurts or anger and such in others here. It was rather insensitive of me to not think of that but then when I read the testimonies section that is when it hit me. thats all.

 

I really am not crazy, and I havent made all that I believe up, I have searched out the scriptures and had much revealed to me which is a no no to you all here, but oh well, what can I say lol

 

 

 

 

 

sojourner

[Mythra]

If a person commits murder, what are they? How many times does a person need to kill someone before they are a murderer? How many times does a rapist need to rape someone? Or a child molester need to molest a child? How far do we want to this?

 

We have, within our species, certain inherent rules that are passed on and perpetuated - and these are not dependent or derived from any god. They have been essential to our survival.

 

It's these morals / precepts that we use to judge YOUR god. And when genocide / condoning rape / murder / destruction are excercised by a people in the name of - no - at the DIRECTION of a god - we are able to see it for what it is. Shameful.

 

People under the spell of christianity read such horrible passages in the old testament, and are not able to detect any problems whatsoever.

[crazy-tiger]

With this said if someone seeks to commit a crime and are busted sentenced and jailed/damned then who's wat is right? The criminal or the judge/law?

Until they actually COMMIT the crime, they are innocent of said crime. Quite simple really...

As for the rest, I am opening a new thread in order to respect the original intentions of the one who started this one. It's called the Big Bang (or Boom... or Squirt... or... whatever) and I will be posting it shortly. If you would like to continue, I will see you there

Sure... it'll be worth the laugh.

[white_raven23]

If a person commits murder, what are they? How many times does a person need to kill someone before they are a murderer? How many times does a rapist need to rape someone? Or a child molester need to molest a child? How far do we want to this?

 

We have, within our species, certain inherent rules that are passed on and perpetuated - and these are not dependent or derived from any god. They have been essential to our survival.

 

It's these morals / precepts that we use to judge YOUR god. And when genocide / condoning rape / murder / destruction are excercised by a people in the name of - no - at the DIRECTION of a god - we are able to see it for what it is. Shameful.

 

People under the spell of christianity read such horrible passages in the old testament, and are not able to detect any problems whatsoever.

 

 

Don't forget slavery. Bible condones slavery.

[Mythra]

Who decides the rules that you live by? How do you determine the scale of right and wrong? Do you even believe in absolute good or bad?

 

And you actually think the source of all our morality comes from Yahweh?

 

The blood-god who salivated at the killing of goats and bulls and oxen and doves - all in order to prepare for the big crescendo - licking his chops the whole time - until we had the ULTIMATE. A human sacrifice.

 

And that's the source of mankind's morality?

 

Please.

[sojourner]

Mythra

 

If you dont mind can I ask you why you chose that name? Do you believe in Mythraism?

 

Didnt he kill the bull, came from a rock or somethinglike that if I recall correctly, in fact if Im not mistaken, mythraism and christianity have alot in common and wasnt it the major religion of the day when Jesus arrived on the scene?

 

trying to remember cause I studied that a few years ago

 

sojourner

[Mythra]

It was a brief study of Mithra / Mithras that broke the spell of christianity in my life.

 

I would not say Roman Mithraism was a major religion early in the first century. At that early time it was primarily practiced among the Roman soldiers spread throughout the empire. It developed and gained strength and influence almost simultaneously with christianity - until about the fourth century when christianity won the day with the conversion of Constantine. Mithraism did continue in a crippled capacity for many hundreds of years after that, however. I never have read Franz Cumont's definitive work on Mithra, but I'm a little familiar with the basic outline.

 

If you're interested, here is a pretty good article on Mithraism: http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/janfeb2003/amithraism.html

 

I was a "born-again" christian for 27 years.

 

I am now an atheist / freethinker.

 

No religions required.

[sojourner]

That is so wild, cause it was reading a book called 'The Christ Conspiracy' that I was first introduced to Mithraism amongst other things. And for me had the opposite effect in that i felt, wow, this same story has been being repeated since the beginning, the sumerians, as well repeat the basic tenants of christianity.

 

thanks for the link

 

sojourner

[Mythra]

Ah yes. Acharya S.

 

Better have a really BIG grain of salt with you for that book.

 

She tends to take a few - how shall I say -

 

liberties

 

with the facts.

[Mythra]

Another book that's interesting but also presents conjecture as fact is "The Jesus Mysteries" by Freke and Gandy.

 

I'd consider Robert Price, Elaine Pagels, Bart Ehrman to be much more solid, academically speaking.

[sojourner]

Well you sure peaked my interest

 

I have one of Elaines books here and Bart, have to look to see what they are. Cant recall

 

thanks

 

sojourner

[Mythra]

Bart Ehrman is more of an expert on history of the New Testament - he wrote "Misquoting Jesus" - talking about scriptural integrity (or lack thereof)

 

Elaine Pagels is best known for the books "The Gnostic Gospels" and "Beyond Belief" (which addresses the Gospel of Thomas)

 

Price speaks the most about Pagan parallels - along with a host of other things. But not in a cheesy, phony way like you see so much of on the internet. You know the ones - where there is a list of Horus / Apollo / Dionysus / Mithras / and it lists item by item where Jesus is identical.

 

When Price says it, it carries authority and I find it to be much more credible. His main books are "The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man" and "Deconstructing Jesus". He also wrote a book in response to Rick Warren's book - but I can't recall the title - oh yeah - "The Reason-Driven Life"

 

POCM (Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth) isn't bad either on the internet. Not terribly scholarly, but it's certainly interesting with some decent primary sources. http://www.pocm.info/index.html

[sojourner]

Ty, I have the gnostic gospels one of Elaines, I went thru a season of reading everything in site. From the Bagavad gita - dont know if I spelled that right to the Christ Conspiricies and so many more lol When it suddenly burst within me that all mankind was important in the scheme of things and it wasnt us four and no more I lost all fear and started venturing into places a good little christian does not go, well except if you are an apologist and are out to build up your arsenol. I found much inspiration in all kinds of unusal places. The thing that I cannot pin down though, yet and is why Im still here posting, when I said I wouldnt, but as long as Im not hurting anyone.......anyhoo the thing I want to understand is why Im where I am in not having my belief in a God shaken where as you all have left God behind, well most of you for the most part by many of the same discoveries.

 

But then maybe the difference is that I turn a blind eye to some things, I must admit one of the hardest things of all for me is the bloodshedding in the OT, all the killing and such. Now the way Ive come to rectifiy that is seeing it as metaphorical or allegorical, have to better learn the difference in those terms. As pertaining to within things, or as Alice would say going from darkness to light in our awareness.

 

I guess we have hijacked this thread huh? so sorry bout that, perhaps they can move our posts ???

 

sojourner

[Mythra]

I guess we have hijacked this thread huh? so sorry bout that, perhaps they can move our posts ???

 

Don't worry about it, man. It'll get back on track.

 

By the way, I don't think salvation is free by any stretch of the imagination.

 

See?

 

Back on track.

[Mythra]

But then maybe the difference is that I turn a blind eye to some things, I must admit one of the hardest things of all for me is the bloodshedding in the OT, all the killing and such. Now the way Ive come to rectifiy that is seeing it as metaphorical or allegorical

 

What if they're not allegory? What if the Israelites really did slaughter hundreds of thousands of people in the name of Yahweh? Wiped out every living thing (except for the virgins - whom Yahweh said to keep for themselves) ? Oh - and don't EVEN get me started on ACHAN'S LITTLE KIDS. (private joke) What if the atrocities really happened - but the made-up part was the idea that there was a deity directing the whole business?

 

I have no doubt that they were barbaric times. Human ugliness at its worst. All so they could possess some land.

 

But to assign the whole, vile business to a loving god is lunacy.

 

Damn. I think we're off-topic again.

[sojourner]

But then maybe the difference is that I turn a blind eye to some things, I must admit one of the hardest things of all for me is the bloodshedding in the OT, all the killing and such. Now the way Ive come to rectifiy that is seeing it as metaphorical or allegorical

 

What if they're not allegory? What if the Israelites really did slaughter hundreds of thousands of people in the name of Yahweh? Wiped out every living thing (except for the virgins - whom Yahweh said to keep for themselves) ? Oh - and don't EVEN get me started on ACHAN'S LITTLE KIDS. (private joke) What if the atrocities really happened - but the made-up part was the idea that there was a deity directing the whole business?

 

I have no doubt that they were barbaric times. Human ugliness at its worst. All so they could possess some land.

 

But to assign the whole, vile business to a loving god is lunacy.

 

Damn. I think we're off-topic again.

 

I started a new thread and would like insight if you care to discuss

 

sorry to have hijacked, I apologize

 

sojourner

[Skankboy]

But then maybe the difference is that I turn a blind eye to some things,

 

We have a winner! Congratulations, you've just discovered why most people can stay a christian. It's a severe lack of critical thinking (a skill which is discourage in the bible on several occassions).

 

Whithout resorting to "this is metaphorical, this is allegorical, but THIS, this really happened" (which is an opninion), there's no way for the bible to be seen as consistent in any way. In fact you would be hard pressed to find 2 christians that believe the same as to which parts are which.

 

I know there is no way to disprove the existence of a god of some kind. To say otherwise is intellectually dishonest. But the god of the bibilical account can be disproved because the followers have given him attributes and these attributes can (for the most part) be logically examined.

 

I did such examining of the bible, the history of the region and looking at the cutural biases that existed throughout the writing of the VARIOUS BOOKS (note: not 1 book. A group of MEN decided which books would or would not be included).

 

Many Christians wine to us that we "aren't looking at the proper context" when in fact they have no idea about the actually people who wrote these words. They have made no effort to find that context and yet accuse us of willful ignorance.

 

Sorry if that turned into a bit of a rant....

 

IMOHO,