sojourner Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Yes 1individual I agree with ya that it makes no sense but I bought it hook line and sinker for years without ever really thinking..sad and embarrassing to admit but so true however, I do believe in a very good God and feel that all the crapola that is passed off as truth and covers Him in some cloak of hatefulness keeps people from knowing that........christianity has done far more against their own religion then they know. Anyone that actually thinks has to question the absurdity of eternal torment But in my life experiance, yes that famous subjective experiance that you all seem to hate, a good God is very real to me I could share alot of why I still believe in a good God, a merciful God but Im going out in a bit to a movie with my husband whom Ive barely seen for a while. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Japedo Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Fear, Fear, Fear. Is that the only thing your God has to bring people to him? I can understand you being frustrated here. You have nothing good to say about your God. Christians can only resort to the fear tactic. Ask yourself this, would you want someone to be with you because they generally want to or because they have fear in their hearts? I wonder how your God would answer that question. Tell us, what makes your God a pleasure to be with? Excellent question Lemon!!! It should be required answering for all Xtians that grace us with their witnessing!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Tell us, what makes your God a pleasure to be with? Ok back, I do have some time and would love to answer that First off I dont believe in a fearful tormenting God so of course I can enjoy His presence in my life without having to backfile some fear that at some point Im not gonna add up, at some point Im gonna dissppoint Him or perhaps commit the unpardonable sin or something standing between us like that. Or who knows, maybe Im fooling myself and Im not one of the elect as Calvin says..im actually not a calvinist but ...or or or......all backfiled. Maybe you that dont believe in a God could chalk up much in my life that I believe is God to my own humaness evolved or something but not me I feel loved by God, accepted even in my weakness and ignorance. I dont feel I have to perform for a God that doesnt understand my humanness as Jesus gave Him an insiders view of being human as he was tempted in all ways but without sin. I also and this will sound whack, but oh well, I also sense His presence and enjoyment in the simple things in my life. I feel and sense His pleasure so then He is a pleasure to be around. of course I cant prove any of this to you, but most of you were christians before, but correct me if Im wrong, so far Ive not read one ex-christian universalist to an athiest post? Is there anyone here like that? I couldnt imagine becoming free of all the vengeful hateful God stuff, getting to know a Loving God then becoming athiest....... sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Tell us, what makes your God a pleasure to be with? Ok back, I do have some time and would love to answer that First off I dont believe in a fearful tormenting God so of course I can enjoy His presence in my life without having to backfile some fear that at some point Im not gonna add up, at some point Im gonna dissppoint Him or perhaps commit the unpardonable sin or something standing between us like that. Or who knows, maybe Im fooling myself and Im not one of the elect as Calvin says..im actually not a calvinist but ...or or or......all backfiled. Maybe you that dont believe in a God could chalk up much in my life that I believe is God to my own humaness evolved or something but not me I feel loved by God, accepted even in my weakness and ignorance. I dont feel I have to perform for a God that doesnt understand my humanness as Jesus gave Him an insiders view of being human as he was tempted in all ways but without sin. I also and this will sound whack, but oh well, I also sense His presence and enjoyment in the simple things in my life. I feel and sense His pleasure so then He is a pleasure to be around. of course I cant prove any of this to you, but most of you were christians before, but correct me if Im wrong, so far Ive not read one ex-christian universalist to an athiest post? Is there anyone here like that? I couldnt imagine becoming free of all the vengeful hateful God stuff, getting to know a Loving God then becoming athiest....... sojourner That's all fine and dandy, but where does JC fit into all that? You haven't mentioned him once? Tell us why you believe in JC? Did he die for your sins? If you believe that, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 That's all fine and dandy, but where does JC fit into all that? You haven't mentioned him once? Tell us why you believe in JC? Did he die for your sins? If you believe that, why? I havent? I actually had my first experaince with Jesus as a small child but that all faded into a wild life. When I was 25 yes, I went down to an altar call and confessed my sins said a prayer just like most of the rest of you all probably, only as silly as that may sound to some, my whole life turned on a dime right then. Set free from addictions, put in my right mind and given a second chance at a life that I wanted to end the night before sleeping with my shotgun next to me. Jesus Christ is life to me, He has lived his life thru me since then in differing degrees. I cant say that was me being a wonderful human cause it wasnt. It was totally unrelated to my own power or what ever. When I say the word God I include Jesus Christ in that name..... I dont see an angry God that would only be satiated by the blood of an innocent man though. I see a God that showed great humility and love, forgiveness which is something that is life changing, mercy is what He desires, not sacrifice. Didnt He say in the ot it never entered His mind to pass his children thru the fire and sacrifice them like they were doing to Molech I believe it was? Another reason I dont believe the way Jesus, salvation and such has been presented is the truth. How could He say that in one breath, then turn around and demand blood to satiate His holiness that we as weak humans somehow in our weakness that He allowed for, created us as, were supposed to live up to.... makes no sense but a God that had a plan from the beginning that included us experiancing sin, death, forgivness, mercy and love well that is life to me and Jesus encompasses all that sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I dont see an angry God that would only be satiated by the blood of an innocent man though. So, you deny that he died for your sins and rose from the dead, ascended to heaven and all? You realize of course, that you are not following *any* christian doctrine at all. You just named your own private god "jesus" (which, I might add, you never call him that, you always call him god), you could have named him thor and post basically the same things you post... Is it a Freudian slip to *never* refer to "god" as, say "jesus", or is it you only believe in god, and have simply chose to name him jesus? If I named my cat jesus, it wouldn't mean my cat is christian... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 All this 'getting to know god' stuff is slightly nauseaus... I've meditated for years, and once you get past the chatter and illusions the mind throws up to 'protect' it's control, there is just a void... silent, uncaring, but quite comfortable, emptiness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 How was your Wednesday? Please, without me researching, what time is it in the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 How was your Wednesday? Please, without me researching, what time is it in the UK? I can only assume you are talking to GH here. Though I can't really see why it matters....unless if GH happened to have a good Wednesday, you wish to take credit for it because you prayed for him or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemon Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Tell us, what makes your God a pleasure to be with? Ok back, I do have some time and would love to answer that First off I dont believe in a fearful tormenting God so of course I can enjoy His presence in my life without having to backfile some fear that at some point Im not gonna add up, at some point Im gonna dissppoint Him or perhaps commit the unpardonable sin or something standing between us like that. Or who knows, maybe Im fooling myself and Im not one of the elect as Calvin says..im actually not a calvinist but ...or or or......all backfiled. Maybe you that dont believe in a God could chalk up much in my life that I believe is God to my own humaness evolved or something but not me I feel loved by God, accepted even in my weakness and ignorance. I dont feel I have to perform for a God that doesnt understand my humanness as Jesus gave Him an insiders view of being human as he was tempted in all ways but without sin. I also and this will sound whack, but oh well, I also sense His presence and enjoyment in the simple things in my life. I feel and sense His pleasure so then He is a pleasure to be around. of course I cant prove any of this to you, but most of you were christians before, but correct me if Im wrong, so far Ive not read one ex-christian universalist to an athiest post? Is there anyone here like that? I couldnt imagine becoming free of all the vengeful hateful God stuff, getting to know a Loving God then becoming athiest....... sojourner All of this sounds fine and good...but what you describe doesn't make up the xtian god that many people push as the only true god. The xtian god isn't a pushover for lack of a better expression. How would your god deal with a pedophile or murderer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 How was your Wednesday? Please, without me researching, what time is it in the UK? 1910 as I'm posting... and it got better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 How was your Wednesday? Please, without me researching, what time is it in the UK? I can only assume you are talking to GH here. Though I can't really see why it matters....unless if GH happened to have a good Wednesday, you wish to take credit for it because you prayed for him or something. I posted that the Crazy's clusterfuck this morning was a 'great' way to launch into a Wednesday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I don't harbor any ill will for any of ya'll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 That's nice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Provided I am part of the crazy you are referring to, I think you misunderstood my post.....I was making light of the church I attend being "lukewarm" as in Revelation. I enjoy the conversations here sometimes more than in church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 *cough* Hey End3... you gonna answer my question? What happens if you do NOT believe? Do you still get the "gift" of salvation? When you have the time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 To the best of my ability, IMH, if you do not believe, you would end your life in separation from God. By separation, I do not have a good grasp, other than regret for not having enjoyed Love when it was offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 To the best of my ability, IMH, if you do not believe, you would end your life in separation from God. By separation, I do not have a good grasp, other than regret for not having enjoyed Love when it was offered. I am "separated" from "god" at this very moment. It feels exactly the same as when I was "with" it. Spooky how the "love" I gave myself all along in the guise of "god" is no different than the "love" I simple give myself now. I don't need a "middle man" imposing artificial rules on my personal relationship with myself. Get out of my head religion. I cast thee out! mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 To the best of my ability, IMH, if you do not believe, you would end your life in separation from God. By separation, I do not have a good grasp, other than regret for not having enjoyed Love when it was offered. I enjoy love when it is offered. I love holding my wife, talking about important things with my children... What has your god offered me? A book filled with hate and vengence, blood sacrifice, devils and hell, people being tortured on a cross, no clear undeniable communication for 2000 year.... Can you feel the love? I can't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I came across this just now and it reminded me of end3 our new pal toaster (as well as some of our recent drive-by's): Christian A zealous Christ fanboy. Christians often have a sexual obsession with Jesus Christ. They are, ironically, proof that there was no Intelligent design. They will accuse YOU of hating Jesus, do you hate Jesus? Christ fandom is one of the oldest fandoms, with a history that spans continents and centuries. To insinuate to a fundamentalist (hard-core) Christian that the Bible is poorly-written fiction will probably result in you being burnt at the stake. Christians, like furries, are often very defensive about their degeneracy. The most important day of the year for Christians is Easter-Day when, legend would have it, Jesus Christ burst forth from a giant chocolate egg to save you from your sins. Except from the sin of being a fatty and guzzling too much chocolate. Although graphical representations of Jesus Christ usually depict him with a slender figure, chances are he was a fatty with body weight dimorphism. Interestingly enough, he is always depicted as white, proving that Christian artists are White Supremacists. Many historians are skeptical of whether Jesus really did exist, but almost all agree that he was a flaming homosexual if he did. Archaeological evidence suggests Jesus had planted a dildo up his ass before his crucifixion to give him some enjoyment during the trial that awaited him. The dildo is known as the Lance of Longinus, because it belonged to a Roman soldier of the same name, Lance Armstrong. The most ridiculous thing amongst Christians is that several different sects believe completely different variations of the story that a cheap jewish carpenter who was born from a 16 year old girl who was raped by an angel, became a magician grew up with a huge fetish for BDSM and became an hero for your sins. He then became a zombie and flew into space with JHVH-1, the alien space-god. According to God, "Christianity is fucking gay." The Bible is a boring space opera where Xenu God, a galactic tyrant, fucked everyone over who ever thought of crossing him in an effort to show them who wore the fucking pants, God did. Despite causing certain and repeated ruination he eventually grew tired of killing off nearly all of the population of which he created, he's a nice guy. He occasionally came back in the sequels to turn people into pillars of salt and to kill all fags but he retired in late 95' after turning down a lucrative hip-hop career. All Christians are hardkore fans of the Bible and will literally stab you in the face if you do not immediately embrace their exact view of God. Christians are inherently mentally retarded and must read from the bible at all times or they will instantly die from a sudden onset of self realized hatred of their putrid disgusting sausage bodies. In a stunning twist they believe fucking everything written in any book labeled "The Bible", regardless of how unbelievable it becomes, this is to show their community spirit, fan-art is also encouraged. Most Christians are split between the original (aka Old Testament) and the fanfic (aka new Testament), most of their time is taken up arguing over which version is currently best, King James ya heard?!?!! This is futile as everyone knows that Xenu will descend from the heavens and not Jesus. If you ever tell a Bible joke to a Christian they will instantly ignore you times at least a thousand because ur a hater, you god damn insensitive atheist. The Bible is also the source of everything known to Christians including NASCAR, Country AND Western, and the ever lovable Faux News, the only TRUE news channel. The standard response of any Christ hatin' is to quote fucking everything as loud and quickly as possible; this is to confuse and bewilder their opponent. This tactic usually works as no one enjoys loud, obese people yelling sexual taunts as they molest Baby Christ dolls. Don't tak Jesus n' vain the bibel says so! ))):< The rest is at the Christianity entry at encyclopedia dramatica. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 MM, I agree, and have acknowledged the "veneer"of Christianity, but I believe in the message. I cross the conventional border regularly at my church, but am "craptured" from the service due to being unconventional in belief and not university educated in "a ministry". Alot of you people are intelligent, unconventional in nature. I was thinking that was part of the reasons some left....I am not calling myself intelligent by any means, but was one reason for posting the "participation in church" thread. It seems regardless of effort, no wiggle room is allowed for humanity unless I adopt the title. At some time I will move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 MM, I am not intentionally ignoring you. I thought the question was, "Is salvation free", not "How does salvation relate to freedom". If you will give me a few hours..... I have some obligations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 MM, I went back and re-read you post a few pages back, I have a reponse, but I do need to go do a few things. My apologies. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 24, 2007 Author Share Posted October 24, 2007 You have also successfully led this conversation off course from the original topic of whether or not salvation is free. Yes, Madame M, you are right, and thank you for the definitions. End3, Kat, and any other Christians out there: Let's please get back to the questions: Is salvation free? If so, how? Is it a gift? We have gone for 11 pages or so, and its been very interesting and entertaining, but can you address these questions? Or do you feel that salvation is neither free, nor a gift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Is salvation free? If so, how? Is it a gift? We have gone for 11 pages or so, and its been very interesting and entertaining, but can you address these questions? Or do you feel that salvation is neither free, nor a gift? Okay...then you may as well define the "gift" of "salvation" while you're at it. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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