sojourner Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I am bringing up this topic because once again a Christian on this site has brought up this idea that salvation is somehow a "free gift". I heard this all my life growing up, and I would like to ask any and all Christians out there to explain exactly how this is a gift and how it is free in view of the fact that if this gift is not accepted, there is hell as a penalty. How do you reconcile this? Have you ever heard of Martin Zender? You might find him interesting to say the least. He is a christian universalist but he has many writings on what you are talking about and how most christians say salvation is a free gift but they mean anything but a free gift. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share Posted October 23, 2007 I am bringing up this topic because once again a Christian on this site has brought up this idea that salvation is somehow a "free gift". I heard this all my life growing up, and I would like to ask any and all Christians out there to explain exactly how this is a gift and how it is free in view of the fact that if this gift is not accepted, there is hell as a penalty. How do you reconcile this? Have you ever heard of Martin Zender? You might find him interesting to say the least. He is a christian universalist but he has many writings on what you are talking about and how most christians say salvation is a free gift but they mean anything but a free gift. sojourner No I haven't heard of him. I left behind all these types of inquiries long ago, finding them irrelevant to reality. I only raised it because on this site we are confronted with it almost on a weekly basis. If he is a universalist then Martin would be unlikely to be describing salvation as a free gift, if he accepts the concept of salvation at all, and from what you say, he does not. After all, what is salvation? Salvation from what? From hell and death, that is what I was taught. Neither exist to me, in the orthodox Christian understanding of those words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 well actually the point I was trying to so inadequately make is that he would agree with you. In christendom salvation is said to be of grace and free but its anything but really. That much becomes apparent very quickly. that much you would have in common, that you would agree that in reality christendom does not actually believe in a free gift of salvation....though they say they do but he is a believer in God and Jesus Christ, that much you wouldnt have in common sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share Posted October 23, 2007 well actually the point I was trying to so inadequately make is that he would agree with you. In christendom salvation is said to be of grace and free but its anything but really. That much becomes apparent very quickly. that much you would have in common but he is a believer in God and Jesus Christ, that much you wouldnt have in common sojourner I am sure you are right, Sojourner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Does anyone have children that have eventually matured to the point that now they return a gift at Christmas or on a birthday? Would it be any different? Maybe the motives of the church are not justified, but how can one judge the giver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 If the child is allowed to hand off the gift, then it was given with no strings. If you can't decline the 'gift' without the giver never speaking to you ever again, then it's not a 'free gift' it's a conditional one... 'If you don't take my gift, I'll not love you any more...' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 The child in the analogy represents the Christian giver and his works. He returns a gift despite having ever accepted or refused presents in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 and then the gibberish starts... one day I'll learn not to engage crazies like they're human... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 horse hockey, try saying something intelligent in response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 and then the gibberish starts... one day I'll learn not to engage crazies like they're human... He really should't do analogies. He doesn't use them properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Bullshit yourself, zealot. I think we have a crossed wire (other than your relationship with a dead jew) the 'Free Gift' is the whole salvation thing... not someone doing 'good stuff' since youll find most here do their 'bit' without earning brownie points with 'God' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 and then the gibberish starts... one day I'll learn not to engage crazies like they're human... He really should't do analogies. He doesn't use them properly. BTW you're not the zealot xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 So I throw a real world example out there and now you play the God card, oh, this is salvation we are talking about.....no, this is a flesh and bones example, and you can't say it always happens one way, so how can you deny my point. Let me give you another since I am on a roll. Who among us, if we were lucky enough to have reasonably good parents, were kicked out of the house when we did not see eye to eye after becoming teenagers. Or did we stay out of harms way because they loved us and let us stay home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 So I throw a real world example out there and now you play the God card, oh, this is salvation we are talking about.....no, this is a flesh and bones example, and you can't say it always happens one way, so how can you deny my point. NO YOU DIDN'T!! That was NOT a "real world" example. You compared christians to children. While some children are christians, not ALL christians are children. They don't all think like children, they don't reason like children, and they don't all act like children (with perhaps ONE exception...). Therefore the "analogy" falls the fuck apart. Who among us, if we were lucky enough to have reasonably good parents, were kicked out of the house when we did not see eye to eye after becoming teenagers. Or did we stay out of harms way because they loved us and let us stay home? This doesn't work either. Maybe YOU are a child....I don't know. Who is the good parent here....god? If that's where you are going....you need to re-read your bible. Because that is NOT what Biblegod is about! Biblegod is NOT a good parent! If a parent acted the way Biblegod acts, they would be arrested and their kids would be taken away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I did do a very small bit of looking into aramaic primacy.....do we know that Jesus would have solely spoken aramaic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 WR, From my heart.....I didn't mean to upset you or anyone. I am largely stubborn by nature, and enjoy the "wallow" so to speak of the argument. I was really just picking on GH because it is fun. My sincere apologies. With all due respect, I think children don't know or care about labels.... in my mind, they are one of the better examples of Love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Let me give you another since I am on a roll. Who among us, if we were lucky enough to have reasonably good parents, were kicked out of the house when we did not see eye to eye after becoming teenagers. Or did we stay out of harms way because they loved us and let us stay home? What on earth makes you think you are "on a roll"??? Plenty of folks have been "kicked out" of the house because they turned atheist, in fact you can find tons of examples of this out there in the *real* world. But you know what? Sometimes that *doesn't* happen, and the xitian parent allows the kid to stay anyway. Of course god doesn't do this, if you don't believe you are shit out of luck. So, some earthly parents are better protectors then god. Bible-god is what I am refering to. Xtian bible god. which one are you talking about btw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Was it your decision to leave the house or His? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 WR, From my heart.....I didn't mean to upset you or anyone. I am largely stubborn by nature, and enjoy the "wallow" so to speak of the argument. I was really just picking on GH because it is fun. My sincere apologies. With all due respect, I think children don't know or care about labels.... in my mind, they are one of the better examples of Love. Retard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I thought you were gone to go do something evil perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Are you going to answer the aramaic question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWIM Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Was it your decision to leave the house or His? It's his if the door is slammed shut through unbelief. WE don't slam the door to salvation, god does. If it were free, belief, or anything else would not be required. We aren't big enough to slam that door, or strong enough to *resist* salvation if it were freely given to us, we would have it regardless. Of course that's all bullshit, since the whole salvation doctrine is unproven bullshit along with the rest of the crap in the book, but anyway, there is the simple logic of it, dance like a whirling durbish around it all you want, bottom line is it's not free and the common-sense part of your mind knows this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 1) the only evil here is the perversion you are performing on the English language, such that it defies the lexical abilities of a native speaker to decipher the crap you type... 2) what else would a 1st century Jew speak other than Aramaic? Zulu? Cantonese? Esperanto? Klingon? Even if Jesus did speak enough Latin not to get his arse kicked, his primary audience were peasants... fishermen, farmers... and that is hardcore Aramaic territory... Modern Analogy - Iraq has an occupying American force. What language will the Iraqis preach in, or speak in their homes? American English? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 No, there is where you are incorrect, because at any time, you could ask to return to God and He would let you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Do you know with certainty that He did not additionally speak Hebrew or Greek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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