Robbobrob Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 If, once someone hears the "Good News" they are required to act in accordance with it to be saved, would it not be better to deny people the "Good News", thus eliminating their sudden, unasked for requirement? And, is this not like saying, if you never take the time to read the most up to date traffic laws because no one told you (maybe you just don't watch the news or read newspapers), then police can only charge you based on the last laws you were aware of? There are more legal layers and loopholes and exceptions and complications built into this suposedly deity given system than the US tax code. I am with Sojourner in that everyone goes to Heaven (if there is such a place for our energy to go after it is no longer locked in our bodies), but it is not a simplistic place of sensory pleasure, because whatever survives has no matter-bound sensors to be pleased. The energy that leaves either disipates back into the universe, to be reused in other ways, or is collected into an energy-spent holding tank.....see, I have a big problem beleiving that the universe has a storage facility for the energy that leaves the body after death. Would not such a place like a Heaven throw the whole balance of the universe out of whack, especially as more and more people are added to it, at a faster and faster rate (which, of course, would go for Heaven's twin, Hell, another holding place). If anything, I could see it meaning that this is how the universe gets back to its original form, the sigularity. It syphons off the energy of "souls" from all living things in the universe, on every planet in the universe, until there is nothing left but black holes, for the non-senient energy, and Heaven/Hell/Whatever for that which was senient. But then that smacks of silliness, how does energy separate into thought and no thought? So, I come back around to my thought that without bodies, the energy commonly called a soul just dissipates back into the cosmos at death, now that it has nothing to hold it together. So, when the "Good News" shows up...and no one reads it, aren't we all a lot better off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Is a gift really a gift if the penalty for not excepting the gift is eternal damnation... Human example, I give you roses, but you don't want roses, so I kill your dog, throw acid in you face and gouge out one of your eyes... and you know if you don't accept the flowers, that's what I'll do since I've done it to everyone else who declined my roses...are the roses then actually a 'gift', or a method of choosing who I mutilate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 So, is that a gift? and as far a Kat the Crazy goes... if it can't fact check quotes then I'd suggest that trying to explain it's errors on the big bang is akin to explaining archery to concrete block... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 You see, your quote was by Edward Conklin. On the contrary... the quote first turned up after Conklin died. The chances of him saying that are slim to say the least. Still, regardless of the source, it's a valid point. Unfortunately not... What are the chances of the Unabridged Dictionary resulting from an explosion in a print shop? No idea? Then how can anyone say that it's comprable to life originating from an accident? Secondly, since no-one with knowledge of the subject actually says life originated from an accident, what the hell does it have to do with the subject anyway?? You continually expose your ignorance on this every time you post... perhaps you should learn that of which you speak before showing yourself to be a buffoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 You see, your quote was by Edward Conklin. On the contrary... the quote first turned up after Conklin died. The chances of him saying that are slim to say the least. Ah, even worse then. The plot thickens... Still, regardless of the source, it's a valid point. Unfortunately not... What are the chances of the Unabridged Dictionary resulting from an explosion in a print shop? No idea? Then how can anyone say that it's comprable to life originating from an accident? Secondly, since no-one with knowledge of the subject actually says life originated from an accident, what the hell does it have to do with the subject anyway?? You continually expose your ignorance on this every time you post... perhaps you should learn that of which you speak before showing yourself to be a buffoon. Kat, study probability and see that even if one would say that quote have a correct assumption, yet a low probability is not the same as improbability. A common misunderstanding. If you pick up a little pebble, and toss it on a large beach. The probability that it landed exactly where it landed is enormous. It's humongous. The chance for it to be at one single spot is so small in the eyes of probability that you would say it is improbable that it landed in that spot, but yet it did. Do you know that your chances of winning on lotto is one in billions and yet almost one person every week does. How is that possible. 1 in a Billion, that to me is totally impossible. No one can win. Because I have never now, I can tell you that. So is the proper response to say that all those winners are liars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat22 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Hey, Mythra! Wow! It's great to chat with you again... you know, speaking of... was it you I was having that discussion, about Ignatious, with? We never go to finish that. Do you remember why? Hi Kat. Of course I remember our conversation - although that was quite some time ago. I don't remember any specifics of the conversation, other than I was somewhat surprised at your depth of knowledge. Did we discuss Ignatius and the Ignatian Epistles in particular, or early sources and their reliability / questioned authenticity in general? It was a mixture of all of those topics... quite in debth and very enjoyable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Where did the free gift "phrasiology" come from anyhow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Selling... religion is a hard sell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 It would be more a choice. Good question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 With all that hashed out, I don't see that the understanding changes much. So ya'll mentioned hell as a consequence of not choosing "the gift". Must I change threads if I wish to go to hell? (a joke) Really, can we talk hell here or go to Mike's thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Hey DevaLight! I had a really good time, thanks! Salvation is Life! I was dead and now Im alive, spiritually that is. I will lay this body down but death wont hold me in its grip. Also salvation is having someone more powerful, more loving, more wise and well more more more live thru me! I couldnt imagine going thru life with me myself and I as my only strength, my only wisdom or love....and I know there is a difference because often when I come to the end of my own- strength, wisdom, love and such well His just takes over and I know that I know its not me. Im not saved from eternal torment thats for sure cause to me it doesnt exist sojourner Well congratulations on being spiritually alive, whatever that means. At least it sounds like you are happy. But still I detect a note of sadness that "I couldn't imagine going thru life with me myself. " Sounds almost like you are describing a split personality thing to me. Are you sure this god given "salvation" isn't just another part of yourself operating? Different conflicting parts of your own mind? How do you know your god is real? Maybe you, yourself, are everything-- loving, wise, as well as weak, powerless, etc. Salvation generally means being saved from something. I take it you mean you are being saved from yourself and from death. Everyone physically dies. Do people who do not perceive that they have the type of salvation you are discussing also have life after death? I bet it does sound like a split personality to someone else. lol In fact probably that Im a little off huh, who knows, I could be and not even know it. I could be lots of things and be unawares. We are often the last to know something about ourselves. But, all I can say is my spiritual life is what it is and it does work for me. I am all those things you said, loving wise weak powerless and powerful, but there is a limit where as when I seem to hit that limit I have sometimes been taken to new heights or depths. Im sure you can relate, you chalk it up to being human right? I simply believe it is God in me. Yes I am being saved from my old self and death. I believe everyone has this life in them and many that are unaware this life is what they are experiancing chalk it up to other things, like you all do. I really do see the love that is resident in humanism as coming from God and manifesting thru mankind whether they believe it is Him or not. He said He would pour out His spirit on all flesh I believe God is reconciled to all mankind as we speak, not all mankind recognizes and walks in the abundance this provides for them, hence those that do recognize it are experiancing now the more abundant life, but all are experiancing His life in some degree. When we then reconcile to this Great God that has reconciled Himself to us, then that abundant life kicks in, at least to me. I believe that God will not settle for less than All mankind knowing this great love kept Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 How do you know this is an objective experience and not subjective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Hey DevaLight! I had a really good time, thanks! Salvation is Life! I was dead and now Im alive, spiritually that is. I will lay this body down but death wont hold me in its grip. Also salvation is having someone more powerful, more loving, more wise and well more more more live thru me! I couldnt imagine going thru life with me myself and I as my only strength, my only wisdom or love....and I know there is a difference because often when I come to the end of my own- strength, wisdom, love and such well His just takes over and I know that I know its not me. Im not saved from eternal torment thats for sure cause to me it doesnt exist sojourner Ok, trying to pull myself back into other discussions... (BTW, HI KAT! Here's where we left off in December: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?s=&a...st&p=242284 ) Sojourner, I want to ask you a question to hear the sort of repsonse you will offer. If you were to hear God tell you something like this, "There is no afterlife. There is only this life. When you die, you will be no more." What would that do to you to hear that? Of course I'm being entirely sincere and respectful in this question. I'd just like to hear your response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Hey DevaLight! I had a really good time, thanks! Salvation is Life! I was dead and now Im alive, spiritually that is. I will lay this body down but death wont hold me in its grip. Also salvation is having someone more powerful, more loving, more wise and well more more more live thru me! I couldnt imagine going thru life with me myself and I as my only strength, my only wisdom or love....and I know there is a difference because often when I come to the end of my own- strength, wisdom, love and such well His just takes over and I know that I know its not me. Im not saved from eternal torment thats for sure cause to me it doesnt exist sojourner So you are not really a Universalist. Since you don't believe the whole world is saved, as you had to recieve this salvation to come to life. So what of all those who do not recieve the salvation? Non-existance? Yes I am a universalist, just because Im aware of who is alive in me doenst mean that He is not reconciled to all men at this time. I did go into detail in this on the post before this one to devalight. Your views are a bit more tenable then the hell and brimstone christians. Since if one is spiritually dead at death, then how can one live eternally in a place called hell. It is still all nonsense though. I'm glad to be free. I dont believe we simply cease to live at death, anyone, but rather step over the threshold or thru the veil. I dont believe that we are just done with our being changed just because we lay the body down. You said that when you come to the end of your own strenght, wisdom and love..etc, that god takes over. Are you sure this is not just a placebo effect. You believe god is there so you believe he is giving you some kind of wisdom or love that you wouldn't have had on your own, therefore you view yourself as more wise or loving? I view Him as more wise and loving and Him expressing this thru me. It really doesn't make sense. As far as those things go, I haven't become less intelligent, I don't have less friends who ask me for advice, I don't love the people in my life any less or care about strangers any less, and I still have about the same physicial endurance I had during and after christianity, not to mention the same amount of mental strenght to get through difficulties. In my experience, and I have a lifetime from age 7 to 30 in christianity and 4 years out. Christians are not more loving, forgiving or able to deal with difficulties than any unbelievers or lukewarm christians (those who profess belief but don't act on it in any way) that I know. In fact, many christians are unable to deal with real life and hide within the walls of their church and confines of church members who believe the same as them. Outside their religion they are scared and out of their comfort zone. Most fundies pretty much hate or despise anyone different from them, they are arrogant about being "king's kids and heaven bound", they are judgemental of even the members in their church and always looking for sin. If christians really did have this spirit inside them that gives them wisdom and strength..etc, then the pastor would not be so busy counseling and mediating between members. He definately wouldn't have to teach becasue this spirit would connect everyone and keep them in one accord. (whispering in ear) It's all in your head. Well you make very good points and in all honesty I mostly agree with you. I feel churches are basically at their best nurserys, at their worst prisons and some even abusive prisons as well. Because churches are so bent on keeping you bound to them, dependant on them their are few that at this time in Gods plan are being pulled out of them and further into the truth. If you want my opinion and this might come off as an insult but I sure dont mean it that way. You that have been pulled out and now have let go of a belief in God are further into knowing His great heart than most of those sitting in churches, to me at least. That is a huge step to me as seeing the lie of the false hateful God that is taught in most churches to me is a step closer to Gods heart, not further away even if you do decide He doesnt exist at all. I recall when a pastor I know came back from a trip to Africa, and was telling this story. In Africa if you run over someone with your car they are your responsibility to take care of. So this pastor runs over this guy that was a member of his church and was having to provide all his medical attention and such and the guy wasnt even a 'faithful' member, didnt 'appreciate the care he was getting' and the pastor felt because this guy stepped in front of his car and it wasnt his fault this was wrong, and when he was telling this to me my first thought was 'How wild that would manifest outwardly when that is what churches have been doing all along to their members, run them over, take care of them and be ticked that you are having to do so when you are the one that filled them with the crap that caused them to step out in front of the car in the first place, but you dont see that, cant see it so you continue on, hurting people then blaming people........a circle....... sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Where did the free gift "phrasiology" come from anyhow From people interpreting the Bible. The Bible isn't 100% clear on anything. It always need someone to apply their own ideas and opinion on it to make it "clear", hence it's not a religion based on truth, but on personal ideas only. Your version of Christianity is yours and you pick and chose who to believe when they explain the Bible to you. It's all about what you think, and not what it literally say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 What if you are OSAS ecclesia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Sojourner, I want to ask you a question to hear the sort of repsonse you will offer. If you were to hear God tell you something like this, "There is no afterlife. There is only this life. When you die, you will be no more." What would that do to you to hear that? Of course I'm being entirely sincere and respectful in this question. I'd just like to hear your response. Ive actually thought on that even last night I was thinking on that because of the convo's here and the beliefs you all share. It isnt the first time Ive given that thought my attention and probably wont be the last. Honestly, the only reason an afterlife matters to me is that I feel being here which to me is a lower plane if you will veils me to much of God. I want to be on the other side of that veil simply to experiance God from that place without the encumbrances that this world has. The bible says we were lowered into vanity not of our own accord........I want to experiance what it is like not living in such vanity. I am not convinced we dont come from that knowing having it veiled to us then return because the bible also says God casts us forth and cries out return you children of men and that He makes a way for His banished to return. However, if there is NO afterlife, Im ok with that. To nonexist is ok with me but that doesnt change that I believe in God. If by my nonexistance somehow He is served thats ok with me. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 What if you are OSAS ecclesia? Doesn't work... the Bible says you can lose salvation. What's with changing the thread topic anyway? This thread is about whether Salvation is a free gift... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 CT, Are you satisfied with my response to the free gift question? So sojourner suggests it, and I am the "bad guy" for changing the topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 What if you are OSAS ecclesia? Then you're a moron who can't read their own 'holy book' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 No one fromt he 'Salvation is a gift side seems to adress the 'creepy insane stalker' meme... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I acknowledge your taint, but it would apprieciate if you left it out. GH, if you are an Xer, did you give your salvation back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 What taint? And what salvation? And I'll post what the fuck I like you grinning loon.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Are you an ex Christian? Simple question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Not a typical one... but I believe I am classed as such... I got out of the cult as a kid... and why didn't you ask that up front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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