Salvation A Free Gift?

[Deva]

Is salvation free? If so, how? Is it a gift? We have gone for 11 pages or so, and its been very interesting and entertaining, but can you address these questions? Or do you feel that salvation is neither free, nor a gift?

Okay...then you may as well define the "gift" of "salvation" while you're at it.

 

mwc

 

mwc Yes, lets have them come on here and define the "gift".

 

I don't think its either free or a gift, whatever that means. That's why I want a Christian to come on here, define it and explain it, if they believe it. I heard it all my life growing up and from Christians on this website and it doesn't make any sense. It isn't free if you have to do anything to get it---belief is something. It isn't a gift since you have to believe or else its literally hell to pay. That's a "gift" with strings attached.

[sojourner]

Belief is part of the gift, at least to me

 

I cant manufacture belief on my own

 

 

just how I see it, going out to a concert

 

hope you all have a great evening!

 

sojourner

[Guest end3]

Def. 6- Provided without, or not subject to, a charge for payment......I believe I have already stated that if you accept believing as being payment, then it is a payment. Are works, tithes, attendance, etc.. a means of payment? No, not to my understanding.

 

I am sure everyone is going to opt for "yes, this means payment", so that takes us to is it a gift?

 

The gift thing can go both ways, and say the payment is believing, then it is not a gift.

 

Gift can also mean "the act of giving", in which case it would be a gift...the def. does not mention anything of payment.

 

IMO, I think to define payment as believing is splitting hairs.

[Deva]

Belief is part of the gift, at least to me

 

I cant manufacture belief on my own

 

 

just how I see it, going out to a concert

 

hope you all have a great evening!

 

sojourner

 

To me, belief is an act, it is something you do. How is it a gift?

 

I take it, Sojourner, since you don't believe in hell, you also don't believe in salvation, at least in the conventional Christian sense. What are you being saved from?

 

After you return, would you like to explain what "salvation" means to you?

[Deva]

Def. 6- Provided without, or not subject to, a charge for payment......I believe I have already stated that if you accept believing as being payment, then it is a payment. Are works, tithes, attendance, etc.. a means of payment? No, not to my understanding.

 

I am sure everyone is going to opt for "yes, this means payment", so that takes us to is it a gift?

 

The gift thing can go both ways, and say the payment is believing, then it is not a gift.

 

Gift can also mean "the act of giving", in which case it would be a gift...the def. does not mention anything of payment.

 

IMO, I think to define payment as believing is splitting hairs.

 

So end3, in your opinon is salvation a free gift? If so, why?

[mwc]

Belief is part of the gift, at least to me

 

I cant manufacture belief on my own

So when children "believe" in Santa that "belief" is a "gift" from Santa?

 

It seems that if no one had not implanted the idea of Santa, and then further reinforced that same idea, that the belief in Santa would not have occurred. Santa played no active part in the process whatsoever.

 

Likewise it seems that if no one had implanted the idea of a "god" (however defined), and then further reinforced that same idea, that the belief in "god" would not have occurred. The "god" played no active part in the process whatsoever.

 

mwc

[Kat22]

All of us have been delivered the gospel... some more times than others. If we have the knowledge of salvation, we are without excuse.

 

As for proof of God? Are you serious? Well, okay. Listen, how many times do you need to blow up a city before it becomes ordered and more organized? It won't, will it. Yet, from an explosion... which came from NOTHING... we are told that an organized universe has formed. What happened to "equal and opposite reaction"? WHERE DID THIS EXPLOSION COME FROM??? (If not God)

 

Talk about astronomical chances right? Seriously, what are the odds of our planet just HAPPENING to swirl into just the right place to support life? Oh yeah, and with a moon, to protect us from meteors, control the tides, give light at night etc, etc. Hey, can anybody tell us where organic life started anyways? From a rock? Maybe two rocks? Maybe, some inanimate chemicals came together and formed primitive bacteria, right? Even if this bacteria thing is reproduced, guess what; it will be reproduced by INTELLIGENT INTERVENTION! Not by some random explosion that came from... what was that, again? NOTHING!!!!

 

And we're the ones called nuts?

 

Funny thing... I often think it requires more faith to be a non-believer.

 

 

"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the Unabridged Dictionary resulting from an explosion in a print shop."

 

- Albert Einstein

[crazy-tiger]

*cough*

Hey End3... you gonna answer my question?

 

 

What happens if you do NOT believe? Do you still get the "gift" of salvation?

When you have the time....

Don't take too long...

[lemon]

All of us have been delivered the gospel... some more times than others. If we have the knowledge of salvation, we are without excuse.

 

As for proof of God? Are you serious? Well, okay. Listen, how many times do you need to blow up a city before it becomes ordered and more organized? It won't, will it. Yet, from an explosion... which came from NOTHING... we are told that an organized universe has formed. What happened to "equal and opposite reaction"? WHERE DID THIS EXPLOSION COME FROM??? (If not God)

 

Talk about astronomical chances right? Seriously, what are the odds of our planet just HAPPENING to swirl into just the right place to support life? Oh yeah, and with a moon, to protect us from meteors, control the tides, give light at night etc, etc. Hey, can anybody tell us where organic life started anyways? From a rock? Maybe two rocks? Maybe, some inanimate chemicals came together and formed primitive bacteria, right? Even if this bacteria thing is reproduced, guess what; it will be reproduced by INTELLIGENT INTERVENTION! Not by some random explosion that came from... what was that, again? NOTHING!!!!

 

And we're the ones called nuts?

 

Funny thing... I often think it requires more faith to be a non-believer.

 

 

"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the Unabridged Dictionary resulting from an explosion in a print shop."

 

- Albert Einstein

 

So it's impossible that something came from nothing...therefore, there must be a God. How did you determine that the God of Christianity is the true God as opposed to Allah, Judiasm (meaning God without Christ as Savior), etc?

[Mythra]

Just a couple of things, Kat. If you think the universe is organized, you probably haven't studied much astronomy. It's chaotic, erratic, and violent.

 

And do you think it's a logical conclusion to think that the only way the universe could have come into existence is if some omnipotent spirit being (let alone a 3-in-1 omnipotent spirit being) who never had a beginning magically spoke the words and POOF - we have a universe - billions and billions of stars and galaxies.

 

Science hasn't found all the answers yet. But your answer is an answer for children (or adults who existed in an ancient, primitive, ignorant time)

[Mythra]

Oh, and Kat - you may want to rethink the use of Einstein in your sig as support for christianity -

 

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms. Albert Einstein

[mwc]

All of us have been delivered the gospel... some more times than others. If we have the knowledge of salvation, we are without excuse.

Define "salvation." We are without excuse of what?

 

As for proof of God? Are you serious? Well, okay. Listen, how many times do you need to blow up a city before it becomes ordered and more organized? It won't, will it. Yet, from an explosion... which came from NOTHING... we are told that an organized universe has formed. What happened to "equal and opposite reaction"? WHERE DID THIS EXPLOSION COME FROM??? (If not God)

Why is this mentioned? How is this related to "Is salvation a free gift?"

 

But alright. First prove that GOD=YHWH/JESUS/<ANY NAMED GOD> and we'll continue. You want to assume that YOUR "god" did all this. I have no idea what caused everything to happen. I'll even allow for a god to have done it...but you cannot connect your god to that first cause. Until you do you are just asserting nothing to take this off-topic.

 

Additionally, when "blowing up the city" who says that during the explosion and the ultimate collapse into dust that many different animals don't take refuge in the remains? That's all we are. We're little organisms living in the remains of the explosion while the conditions are right for us to do so. When that changes we will go away. Cease to exist. Maybe something else will move in and maybe it/they won't. Same with the corpse of the city.

 

Talk about astronomical chances right? Seriously, what are the odds of our planet just HAPPENING to swirl into just the right place to support life? Oh yeah, and with a moon, to protect us from meteors, control the tides, give light at night etc, etc. Hey, can anybody tell us where organic life started anyways? From a rock? Maybe two rocks? Maybe, some inanimate chemicals came together and formed primitive bacteria, right? Even if this bacteria thing is reproduced, guess what; it will be reproduced by INTELLIGENT INTERVENTION! Not by some random explosion that came from... what was that, again? NOTHING!!!!

Are you so upset because no one can give you these answers? Is that it? Really?

 

The odds of this happening are 1. It happened. Amazing. The odds of it happening across the entire universe are unknown but it could have happened trillions upon trillions of times...or exactly once.

 

And we're the ones called nuts?

 

Funny thing... I often think it requires more faith to be a non-believer.

You are nuts. You're worried over the origins of life when it makes no real difference. You're here aren't you? If it were that important "god" would appear and say "Don't listen to MWC it really is that important and here's the real story." He doesn't. It's not that important.

 

That's why it doesn't take a lot of faith to be an un-believer.

 

"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the Unabridged Dictionary resulting from an explosion in a print shop."

 

- Albert Einstein

Einstein was brilliant but he wasn't always right.

 

mwc

[crazy-tiger]

All of us have been delivered the gospel... some more times than others. If we have the knowledge of salvation, we are without excuse.

You sure? How can you be sure you're reading the Bible the right way?

As for proof of God? Are you serious? Well, okay. Listen, how many times do you need to blow up a city before it becomes ordered and more organized? It won't, will it. Yet, from an explosion... which came from NOTHING... we are told that an organized universe has formed. What happened to "equal and opposite reaction"? WHERE DID THIS EXPLOSION COME FROM??? (If not God)

Which explosion? Are you talking about that misunderstanding of Big Bang Theory that says absolutely NOTHING about an explosion?

 

If you fancy finding out what it REALLY says so you don't come across as an ignorant fundie, be my guest... just avoid the Creationist websites/books. They twist it so much you'd never recognise it.

Talk about astronomical chances right? Seriously, what are the odds of our planet just HAPPENING to swirl into just the right place to support life?

You do know that Mars and Venus aren't exactly that far away from the orbital area around the sun that would enable them to support life, don't you? The odds of it happening are a lot better than you'd imagine.

Oh yeah, and with a moon, to protect us from meteors, control the tides, give light at night etc, etc.

Yep, because we all know that no other planet has a moon of any kind... and the Moon ALWAYS gives that light, except when it doesn't.

Hey, can anybody tell us where organic life started anyways? From a rock? Maybe two rocks? Maybe, some inanimate chemicals came together and formed primitive bacteria, right?

Abiogenesis... look it up and learn why you've just made a total fool of yourself.

Even if this bacteria thing is reproduced, guess what; it will be reproduced by INTELLIGENT INTERVENTION! Not by some random explosion that came from... what was that, again? NOTHING!!!!

We've gone most of the way from inorganic/inanimate chemicals to a living cell... without any intervention. All we've done is recreate the conditions of very early Earth and let it run by itself.

 

If that's going to be the intelligent intervention that proves God exists, then it's going to prove that God is not needed.

And we're the ones called nuts?

Well, yes... if you're going to argue against such lies and claim it's proof God exists, then yes... you are nuts.

Funny thing... I often think it requires more faith to be a non-believer.

Given the way you've shown you don't know what the hell you're talking about, I'd rethink that one...

"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the Unabridged Dictionary resulting from an explosion in a print shop."

 

- Albert Einstein

Oh dear... Old Albert never said that. It was first spotted in Readers Digest, attributted to Princeton Biology Professor, Edwin Conklin - Reader's Digest Jan.1963 pg.92. Quite impressive since he died in 1952.

Sometimes he's quoted as saying it in 1956... 4 years after he died. Sometimes it's attributted to Albert Einstien... and sometimes you get Creationists blurting it out as though they've thought of it themselves.

 

So, not only do you have some strange ideas about Cosmology, Biochemisty and Science in general, but you also like believing lies...

 

 

 

Tell us again why you're qualified to tell us about anything?

[Ouroboros]

As for proof of God? Are you serious? Well, okay. Listen, how many times do you need to blow up a city before it becomes ordered and more organized? It won't, will it. Yet, from an explosion... which came from NOTHING... we are told that an organized universe has formed. What happened to "equal and opposite reaction"? WHERE DID THIS EXPLOSION COME FROM??? (If not God)

It shows that you don't know what the "Big Bang" really is about. It's a misnomer, it was not an explosion the way you think of it.

 

This explosion did NOT come from NOTHING, that's also a misunderstanding. Why do Christians keep on saying that? Where the HECK did they get the "BIG BANG CAME FROM NOTHING" idea from??? That's NOT what the scientists are saying, and they haven't said anything like that for the last 40 or 50 years!!! So where the F*CK does it come from?

 

The Big Bang came from a hot and dense singularity that could have existed for eternity as far as we know. We can't estimate it's age, because "age" and "time" is dependent on the space/time fabric which came into structure when the Big Bang occurred. We have to talk about hypertime to explain what the age of this singularity is, and we step outside of our understanding of time. But it was not "non-existent" before the Big bang, it just wasn't part of OUR time.

 

Talk about astronomical chances right? Seriously, what are the odds of our planet just HAPPENING to swirl into just the right place to support life?

Bad understanding of probability and the situation. A dead planet would not be able to have life to think about how they came into being alive would it? So a planet that does have life will eventually have life that thinks about how improbable it is that it exists. Has nothing to do with how you're thinking.

 

Oh yeah, and with a moon, to protect us from meteors,

It doesn't protect us from meteors.

 

control the tides, give light at night etc, etc.

The light at night has no function what-so-ever.

 

Hey, can anybody tell us where organic life started anyways? From a rock? Maybe two rocks?

Maybe from dust, since that's what you want it to be. The Bible say you are made from dust and you think it's strange to talk about life from a rock or from water or from minerals? You consist of 70% water, so you come mostly from water.

 

Maybe, some inanimate chemicals came together and formed primitive bacteria, right? Even if this bacteria thing is reproduced, guess what; it will be reproduced by INTELLIGENT INTERVENTION!

No it doesn't. It reproduces by natural means. It's observable. No magical-sky-hand is popping into the microscopes when real scientists watch them multiply.

 

Not by some random explosion that came from... what was that, again? NOTHING!!!!

Eh, you're absolutely right. It didn't come from Nothing, it came from something. But that something isn't intelligent and sentient as you want it to be, that's the only difference. I believe in an infinte and eternal existence of things and multiverses. But without a intelligence behind it. It just is.

 

And we're the ones called nuts?

Yes. I would say so.

 

Funny thing... I often think it requires more faith to be a non-believer.

Not really. Since I was Christian for 30 years, and I used that line 100 times or more over the years. I have the ability to compare my faith/belief status between the systems, and no, it is actually easier when it comes to rational thinking to be rational. A rational mind only needs to be rational. A reality based mind only needs to be reality based. A belief needs to be based on conviction of fantasy and imagination.

 

 

"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the Unabridged Dictionary resulting from an explosion in a print shop."

 

- Albert Einstein

It isn't a real quote. Einstein has been misquoted quite a lot, so I don't believe it when people use it to prove their points. He also said something about that he does NOT believe in any CREATOR and that people has been using his name to lie about his beliefs only to support their own Christian propaganda.

 

You see, your quote was by Edward Conklin.

 

How does it feel to be a liar? If you tell a lie, doesn't it make you a liar? From now on I know that you're a liar and I will not trust one word you say. For being a Christian, you're making a very bad example for your kind. You're supposed to be truthful and yet here you are lying. Hypocrite!

[Kat22]

Just a couple of things, Kat. If you think the universe is organized, you probably haven't studied much astronomy. It's chaotic, erratic, and violent.

 

And do you think it's a logical conclusion to think that the only way the universe could have come into existence is if some omnipotent spirit being (let alone a 3-in-1 omnipotent spirit being) who never had a beginning magically spoke the words and POOF - we have a universe - billions and billions of stars and galaxies.

 

Science hasn't found all the answers yet. But your answer is an answer for children (or adults who existed in an ancient, primitive, ignorant time)

 

Hey, Mythra! Wow! It's great to chat with you again... you know, speaking of... was it you I was having that discussion, about Ignatious, with? We never go to finish that. Do you remember why?

[Ouroboros]

Kat, answer me this:

 

If an ordered universe must come from a creator for it to be ordered.

 

Then my question is: is God ordered?

 

If your answer is Yes, then God requires a creator too, since order can only come from a creator. So who is God's creator?

 

But if you say, God can exist as ordered without a creator, then I respond, so can the universe.

[Kat22]

I appreciate you pointing that out to me, Han. Sorry about the quote thing; A friend sent it to me and I was unaware that the origins were wrong. Let's see how a humanist/post-modernist/evolutionist/han solo, or whatever you call yourself, practices forgiveness.

 

Still, regardless of the source, it's a valid point.

[Kat22]

Kat, answer me this:

 

If an ordered universe must come from a creator for it to be ordered.

 

Then my question is: is God ordered?

 

If your answer is Yes, then God requires a creator too, since order can only come from a creator. So who is God's creator?

 

But if you say, God can exist as ordered without a creator, then I respond, so can the universe.

 

Umm...Han? Didn't you just say "From now on I know that you're a liar and I will not trust one word you say. "?

 

Why are you still asking me questions, then? This must be an accidental inquiry, right? So, I'll forgive the error and pretend I didn't see it.

[Mythra]

Hey, Mythra! Wow! It's great to chat with you again... you know, speaking of... was it you I was having that discussion, about Ignatious, with? We never go to finish that. Do you remember why?

 

Hi Kat. Of course I remember our conversation - although that was quite some time ago. I don't remember any specifics of the conversation, other than I was somewhat surprised at your depth of knowledge. Did we discuss Ignatius and the Ignatian Epistles in particular, or early sources and their reliability / questioned authenticity in general?

[white_raven23]

Talk about astronomical chances right? Seriously, what are the odds of our planet just HAPPENING to swirl into just the right place to support life?

 

Those chances are about the same as....oh.....the sperm that resulted in YOU. The odds were 1 to 120 - 600 million....so it happens EVERY day....each time ANY creature capable of live birth has sex.

 

Oh yeah, and with a moon, to protect us from meteors, control the tides, give light at night etc, etc.

 

Is that what creationists tell children the moon is for? You have NO scientific knowledge if that's what you believe. Meteors hit the earth quite often.

 

And we're the ones called nuts?

 

Yes...because you pervert and twist things until they conform to you beliefs.

[Brother Jeff]

So I throw a real world example out there and now you play the God card, oh, this is salvation we are talking about.....no, this is a flesh and bones example, and you can't say it always happens one way, so how can you deny my point.

 

Let me give you another since I am on a roll. Who among us, if we were lucky enough to have reasonably good parents, were kicked out of the house when we did not see eye to eye after becoming teenagers. Or did we stay out of harms way because they loved us and let us stay home?

 

End, what is your goal, exactly? Are you hoping to save someone here? Or just argue till your fingers bleed? Those who are regulars do not want to be brought back into the fold. You would do well to read Matthew 7:6 before you lose interest in helping those who are seeking. I know that seems a bit harsh but take it from someone who has been here before (some of you here may remember me. Hello again ). The conversations are the same now that they were the last time I was here, a year ago.

 

Now, I am not trying to call anyone pigs or dogs here. It is merely an example of advice given. Why waste time trying to convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced? Here is all they really need to hear. It's called the "Law" (or the 10 commandments)

 

 

1 You shall have no other gods before me.

 

2 You shall not make for yourself an idol. You shal not bow down to them or worship them

 

3 You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

 

4 Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work.

 

5 Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

 

6 You shall not murder.

 

7 You shall not commit adultery.

 

8 You shall not steal.

 

9 You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

 

10You shall not covet

 

People do not go to hell for denying Christ; they go to hell for breaking our Sovereign God's laws. Before one can be saved, they first need to realize, and admit, they NEED to be saved. The Law is the mirror that helps us see our sin through God's eyes, in order that we may be humbled. Sin is very serious to a Holy, Just and loving God. Holy, because of who He is. Just, because He was willing to give us the Law (rules, just as all caring parents do). And loving, because He sent His son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for our sins. Accepting, upon Himself, the punishment we rightfully deserve. Thus providing an escape route from the eternal damnation we have earned.

 

Man can deny the existence of God if he so chooses. Man can deny that the existence of hell if he so chooses.

 

I can deny the existence of semi-trucks; but, if I walk into the middle of a road and get hit by one, my denial changes nothing. The reality of the situation will still take it's course. I'm still dead.

 

If you go to a doctor, for a health check-up, and he discovers you have all the earmarks of an imminent heart attack, due to your unhealthy habits and lifestyle, what would you rather hear?

 

"Everything is fine, there's nothing wrong with your health. You're doing great! Heart attacks aren't real, anyways."

or "You're on the road to death! Listen to me! If you don't make some serious changes right now, you will, without a doubt, die! Let me help you."

 

If your doctor cares, there is no doubt what his response would be. No Holy, Just and Loving God would let you die in your sin without warning, you of your condition, first.

 

Here is your warning: God is real, sin is real, hell is real... salvation is very, very real. Being angry at God, for any reason, will not change this reality.

 

Those who are regulars do not want to be brought back into the fold.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I personally think it would be awesome if a loving God actually did exist and there was a wonderful afterlife waiting for me after I died. But, there is not any evidence for the actual existence of either. I remain open to being convinced, but it will take actual evidence and actual facts to do it, not the typical apologetics arguments that are so very easy to debunk.

 

Now, I am not trying to call anyone pigs or dogs here.

 

Oh sure, of course you're not.

 

People do not go to hell for denying Christ; they go to hell for breaking our Sovereign God's laws.

 

Baseless religious assertion, nothing more.

 

Before one can be saved, they first need to realize, and admit, they NEED to be saved.

 

Salvation is a religious concept, not one based in reality. Nobody needs to be saved, and nobody is saved. "Saved" and "lost" are false distinctions made by a demonstrably false religion. But those are distinctions that I made for many years of my life as a Christian, until I came to the realization after much research and thought that none of my Christian beliefs had any demonstrable basis in reality, and I subsequently deconverted.

 

Sin is very serious...

There is no such thing as "sin". Sin is a mythological concept taken from an ancient Book of Myths.

 

from the eternal damnation we have earned

And what exactly have we done to deserve to be barbecued forever? As I understand it, in Christian mythology we are all damned because Adam and Eve (two obviously mythical people) listened to a talking snake and ate some magic fruit that magically killed their inner spooks... I'm sorry, the story is so absurd that I can't bring myself to discuss something so ridiculous seriously... But anyway...

 

Do you have children? If so, how do you discipline them when the need arises? Would you drag your child to your kitchen stove, crank the burner to its highest setting and then burn them, for even a single second, for ANY reason? NO? I didn't think so... And what would you think of a mother who did do such a thing to their child? You wouldn't think much of them, would you? In fact, you would think that they were a MONSTER, wouldn't you? So would I. And yet, you worship a God who is allegedly going to do this to BILLIONS of people that he allegedly loves (burn them with fire) not just for a single second, but FOREVER. And you think nothing of consigning everyone who doesn't believe as you do to the flames of hell FOREVER. And you sincerely believe that we should all worship this unspeakably evil MONSTER of a God. Before you claim that your God is not a monster, let me remind you that anyone who would burn anyone for any length of time for ANY reason is, by definition, a MONSTER - and that includes your God. He isn't somehow magically exempt. Could you please explain to us why you worship a monster of a God and why we should do so? Thanks.

 

Here is your warning: God is real, sin is real, hell is real... salvation is very, very real. Being angry at God, for any reason, will not change this reality.

The Enterprise is real, Captain Kirk is real, the Klingons are real... Captain Janeway wants to have passionate sex with me all night long (and what an awesome night that would be! ), and so on... Just because I want it to be so doesn't make it so. And just because an ancient Book of Myths riddled with factual, historical, and scientific errors and hundreds of contradictions treats God, sin, hell, salvation, etc. as real doesn't make it so. There is not ANY evidence that even remotely suggests that your religious assertions equal "reality". You can make all of the baseless assertions and threats of hell you want, but until you produce some EVIDENCE and some FACTS to back up your assertions and threats and some logical, rational reasons to believe, I see no valid reason why I or anyone else should share your beliefs or fear the hell that you (and most Christians) so love to threaten us with.

[sojourner]

Hey DevaLight! I had a really good time, thanks!

 

Salvation is Life! I was dead and now Im alive, spiritually that is. I will lay this body down but death wont hold me in its grip. Also salvation is having someone more powerful, more loving, more wise and well more more more live thru me! I couldnt imagine going thru life with me myself and I as my only strength, my only wisdom or love....and I know there is a difference because often when I come to the end of my own- strength, wisdom, love and such well His just takes over and I know that I know its not me.

 

Im not saved from eternal torment thats for sure cause to me it doesnt exist

 

sojourner

[Ouroboros]

I appreciate you pointing that out to me, Han. Sorry about the quote thing; A friend sent it to me and I was unaware that the origins were wrong. Let's see how a humanist/post-modernist/evolutionist/han solo, or whatever you call yourself, practices forgiveness.

I practice it when someone earns it.

 

 

Umm...Han? Didn't you just say "From now on I know that you're a liar and I will not trust one word you say. "?

 

Why are you still asking me questions, then? This must be an accidental inquiry, right? So, I'll forgive the error and pretend I didn't see it.

You got me. Yeah. I can't hold a grudge too long.

 

My point about "to lie is to be a liar" is a reference to how the "Way of the Master" guys think. Cameron and whats-his-name they say if you lie once, then you are a liar (equated to pathological liar) which is extremely riddiculous in my opinion, but the result from such a message they're preaching is exactly that, if you tell me one lie, it means you will always lie to me. That's how those guys thinks, and they are spreading their "gospel" to many people (and they are spreading many lies baked into it, like untrue "facts" about science and evolution).

 

Do you get a sense of why we are so frustrated with Christian rhetorics a lot? It's too much word twisting and spinning the meanings of words just to make things fit into their belief, instead of being honest and look at it from a serious and truthfull view. I urge you to take the step and do it. Start imagine about how we would think about things before you say we're wrong. Most (mostly all) Christians start with false assumptions of what we think and what facts we base our thoughts on, and then they tell us we're wrong based on their misconceptions. It's extremely irritating. For instance, you made a mistake like that yourself when you said science believe Big bang was an explosion from nothing. That is not true. Scientists do not believe that. And if you (which you haven't mentioned yet) think that evolution teaches that we come from monkeys, that's just another lie from the Christians, evolution does NOT teach that, but that's what we have to face and argue about all the time. If there should be any critique of science and evolution and atheism or anything else, start with the true facts and the true statements and we can work from there. That's honesty to yourself, and isn't that what you really want?

[Deva]

Hey DevaLight! I had a really good time, thanks!

 

Salvation is Life! I was dead and now Im alive, spiritually that is. I will lay this body down but death wont hold me in its grip. Also salvation is having someone more powerful, more loving, more wise and well more more more live thru me! I couldnt imagine going thru life with me myself and I as my only strength, my only wisdom or love....and I know there is a difference because often when I come to the end of my own- strength, wisdom, love and such well His just takes over and I know that I know its not me.

 

Im not saved from eternal torment thats for sure cause to me it doesnt exist

 

sojourner

 

Well congratulations on being spiritually alive, whatever that means. At least it sounds like you are happy. But still I detect a note of sadness that "I couldn't imagine going thru life with me myself. " Sounds almost like you are describing a split personality thing to me. Are you sure this god given "salvation" isn't just another part of yourself operating? Different conflicting parts of your own mind? How do you know your god is real? Maybe you, yourself, are everything-- loving, wise, as well as weak, powerless, etc.

 

Salvation generally means being saved from something. I take it you mean you are being saved from yourself and from death. Everyone physically dies. Do people who do not perceive that they have the type of salvation you are discussing also have life after death?

[Robbobrob]

Kat, interesting choice in your new sig. Wish more Christians beleived that and let the non-Christians say what they want and live in peace.