Salvation A Free Gift?

[Jubilant]

Jub,

I feel if we could understand all the reasons for the "rules" of the old covenant, we would understand they are the same.

 

Are you aware that the *rules* of the *old* covenant are almost identical to the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi which pre-dates Judaism? You should read Ezekiel and Isaiah start to finish, then read your NT...the Old Testament rules are still in full effect when God reigns on earth (there is no heaven/hell promise in the OT either). If you choose to do so, do it WITHOUT the aide of apologetics; read those books for what they are, not for what you want them to be. While you're at it, I believe it is Zachariah where it speaks about how when God reigns on earth that if men do not attend the Feast of the Tabernacle once a year that their land will not receive rain.

[Guest end3]

All right folks, I am going to give up for today, but one more time:

 

Deva,

I think it is a gift........if you think by believing that that constitutes payment, then I have paid by believing.

 

Ya'll have beat me up constantly about my grammer, but when I explain my thoughts more clearly, you don't give me the benefit of the possibility that is was my grammer. I don't get it.

 

Bottom line, humans today and of yesteryear suck a the practice of being genuinely good people. He doesn't beat me up as the people who practice His Word do. He has shown me a way to possibly live where I am not as big an ass as I was before. If I am a heretic of todays philosophy, yeah me.

 

Hope everyone has a wonderful evening, or whatever your time zone allows. Thanks for all the thoughts. end3

[Grandpa Harley]

Jub,

I feel if we could understand all the reasons for the "rules" of the old covenant, we would understand they are the same.

 

Are you aware that the *rules* of the *old* covenant are almost identical to the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi which pre-dates Judaism? You should read Ezekiel and Isaiah start to finish, then read your NT...the Old Testament rules are still in full effect when God reigns on earth (there is no heaven/hell promise in the OT either). If you choose to do so, do it WITHOUT the aide of apologetics; read those books for what they are, not for what you want them to be. While you're at it, I believe it is Zachariah where it speaks about how when God reigns on earth that if men do not attend the Feast of the Tabernacle once a year that their land will not receive rain.

 

In Red: That's because Hebrew and Aramaic didn't support the concepts...

[Deva]

All right folks, I am going to give up for today, but one more time:

 

Deva,

I think it is a gift........if you think by believing that that constitutes payment, then I have paid by believing.

 

Ya'll have beat me up constantly about my grammer, but when I explain my thoughts more clearly, you don't give me the benefit of the possibility that is was my grammer. I don't get it.

 

Bottom line, humans today and of yesteryear suck a the practice of being genuinely good people. He doesn't beat me up as the people who practice His Word do. He has shown me a way to possibly live where I am not as big an ass as I was before. If I am a heretic of todays philosophy, yeah me.

 

Hope everyone has a wonderful evening, or whatever your time zone allows. Thanks for all the thoughts. end3

 

I did not mean to be rude and don't think I was beating you up. If you took it that way, I apologize. It is just that when I am presented with two basically different statements, I feel the need to question it.

 

You are right that believing is a payment. I think it is a BIG payment.

[Guest end3]

P.S.

 

GH,

He wasn't killed to appease anyone, it was a fulfillment, and simultaneous example of a path, via resurrection, yielding the Presence. Adios.

[Grandpa Harley]

All right folks, I am going to give up for today, but one more time:

 

Deva,

I think it is a gift........if you think by believing that that constitutes payment, then I have paid by believing.

 

Ya'll have beat me up constantly about my grammer, but when I explain my thoughts more clearly, you don't give me the benefit of the possibility that is was my grammer. I don't get it.

 

Bottom line, humans today and of yesteryear suck a the practice of being genuinely good people. He doesn't beat me up as the people who practice His Word do. He has shown me a way to possibly live where I am not as big an ass as I was before. If I am a heretic of todays philosophy, yeah me.

 

Hope everyone has a wonderful evening, or whatever your time zone allows. Thanks for all the thoughts. end3

 

 

OK, you may well be talking gibberish around what you think... however, you've still not reconciled that Jesus couldn't have said or even thought in the Gospels...

[Grandpa Harley]

P.S.

 

GH,

He wasn't killed to appease anyone, it was a fulfillment, and simultaneous example of a path, via resurrection, yielding the Presence. Adios.

 

and you say I don't type in English... what the FUCK does that mean?

[Ouroboros]

END3, are you a poser/spoof? I'm starting to be very suspicious that you're not real at all.

[crazy-tiger]

I think it is a gift........if you think by believing that that constitutes payment, then I have paid by believing.

And if you don't believe, do you still receive the gift?

 

 

What does the word mean?

 

–noun

1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.

2. the act of giving.

3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned.

4. a special ability or capacity; natural endowment; talent.

 

If you have to believe to get salvation, then it's not a gift at all...

[white_raven23]

END3, are you a poser/spoof? I'm starting to be very suspicious that you're not real at all.

 

 

His writing changes way too much for this to be just one person. Much like handwriting, the words one uses to express oneself become distinct over a very short amount of time. The "cadence" becomes familiar. End3 likes to start out in threads often with some kind of badly chosen analogy....then suddenly the speech pattern changes several posts in. One can see it in the Moses Glowing face thread. At some point, when End3 gets "stuck" talking to us, he's passing someone else the keyboard. The cadence changes way too much.

 

Unless he's got multiple personalities.

[Grandpa Harley]

If need be, I have 'friends' who can take that apart so that jury could make a decision... Forensic Lexical Analysis it's called... Gimmie a shout...

[Guest end3]

Why would ya'll think that I am two or not real? If you think ya'll have it bad, you ought to ask my wife of the last 15 years. She can testify I have given myself a bipolar screening, and I come very close. I was just starting to get frustrated, because I felt I had already explained my take.

 

GH,

Did the crucifixion end the old covenant? And in doing that, He surrendered and allowed the death of His body for the sake of something having a higher or more pressing claim? And that is the example of the path for the new covenant. Additionally, ending in the presence of God. I don't understand what you are asking about Jesus in the gospels.

 

Deva,

I don't want to derail the thread....I don't know why everyone is so stuck on it is not free. If you believe, that's it, Heaven. I feel certain that the decision is offered to all. Maybe the calories to produce the thought in your brain..... The rest is, it is so good for me, that I want to volunteer my life to help others understand, but I don't see that as payment for the belief. I don't know if other churches make people earn or do something.

 

CT,

No disrespect intended, but achieving a thought in my head really in my mind does not constitute what I would think of today as a physical payment.

[Mike D]

Where did the whole Free Gift ™ doctrine even come from? Is it even Biblical, or is it really just a marketing pitch some Christians came up with somewhere along the line to increase "sales"?

[Deva]

Where did the whole Free Gift ™ doctrine even come from? Is it even Biblical, or is it really just a marketing pitch some Christians came up with somewhere along the line to increase "sales"?

 

Mike,

Please see post #47 and #54. As these two previous posts have pointed out, it seems to have some scriptural basis in Paul's letters, but it was used as a marketing pitch in tracts and during "soul winning" (gag) visits by Baptists.

[Deva]

I don't know why everyone is so stuck on it is not free.

 

Because xians keep coming on this site and saying salvation is a "free gift." It is nonsense. It is NOT free, as many have pointed out and it is NOT a gift. I want an explanation that makes sense and we have not had one yet.

[Grandpa Harley]

GH,

¹Did the crucifixion end the old covenant? ²And in doing that, He surrendered and allowed the death of His body for the sake of something having a higher or more pressing claim? ³And that is the example of the path for the new covenant. ⁴Additionally, ending in the presence of God. ⁵I don't understand what you are asking about Jesus in the gospels.

 

1) No idea... I've never bought the whole covenant thing, since it seems to be God promising not to wipe us all out.

 

2) Gibberish... and I'm not the believer here so since it's a question, you tell me...

 

3) See point 1

 

4) No idea.

 

5) Home turf, since I can explain this. Yeshua would have spoken Aramaic. More than 90% of the later concepts you rely on in your faith couldn't have been framed in Aramaic. The Gospels were written in Greek, and thus your working from a flawed position. In the Aramaic mindset, we're always in God, all the time. In Greek we are separated. You can't say that in Aramaic. The Trinity isn't an Aramaic idea, again it can't be communicated. If you can't frame it in the language, then you can't think it... The idea of the Kingdom of God to come would be laughed at by 1st Century Aramaic speakers... again you couldn't communicate it in Aramaic, and if you'd told them in Greek they'd have thought you were insane... Want me to continue?

[crazy-tiger]

CT,

No disrespect intended, but achieving a thought in my head really in my mind does not constitute what I would think of today as a physical payment.

And you still don't get it...

 

Believing is the payment. Payment doesn't have to physical, like some kind of money... it just has to be you doing something to receive something. In this case, if you believe, you get salvation.

 

 

Again, what happens if you do NOT believe? Do you still get the "gift" of salvation? If not, then it's not a "gift" at all and you have to make some kind of payment to receive it.

[Mythra]

Let's face it. Most of us have been there. And this religion is not free of charge by any stretch of the imagination.

 

If you think so, just stand up in church and declare that you are not going to put another red cent into the offering plate, because salvation is free.

 

There would be a line of people that stretched out to the parking lot who felt the "Spirit move them" to straighten your ass out. (with the pastor himself being first in line)

 

If I had back all the money I spent on this nonsense, I'd have a free house today.

[Guest end3]

Looks like an impass....I am saying testament, please look up the def.

 

GH,

If a person were wanting to understand Aramaic and that translation to US English, redneck variety, if possible, where does one start?

[Grandpa Harley]

No, End, you're wallowing in your ignorance and wearing like a badge of courage. That's the impass... not Mythra's definition of Testament (it means a statement made under oath - it comes from the time when Roman men cupped their testicles to indicate they were telling the truth.)

 

And I'd start with Neil Douglas-Klotz for an overview of what can't be said in Aramaic...

Amazon.com book list.

[Guest end3]

American Heritage Dictionary:

 

Testament

1. Something that serves as tangible proof or evidence.

 

That was the def. I was citing. Next time, I will try and be more clear.

 

Thank-you for the reference.

 

Hey, just a thought, I am not very intelligent, but can ocassionally understand when grace is warranted.

[Jubilant]

American Heritage Dictionary:

 

Testament

1. Something that serves as tangible proof or evidence.

 

That was the def. I was citing. Next time, I will try and be more clear.

 

Thank-you for the reference.

 

Hey, just a thought, I am not very intelligent, but can ocassionally understand when grace is warranted.

 

 

What troubles me with you, End3, is that you've openly admitted to not having read the whole Bible, yet here you are...trying to get us (who have actually read it on our own, without someone telling us what it means) to believe the utter crap within its pages. You are really no different then a person in the middle ages who believed because some higher authority told you that it is the truth. If you need apologetics to teach you what the Bible says, then that is no different. I feel sorry for you, maybe the reason you still need to be taught the Bible is because the REnewed Covenent has not gone into effect yet? After all, and from the words of your "holy" book:

 

 

 

Jeremiah 31:

 

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,

"when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel

and with the house of Judah.

 

32 It will not be like the covenant

I made with their forefathers

when I took them by the hand

to lead them out of Egypt,

because they broke my covenant,

though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "

declares the LORD.

 

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel

after that time," declares the LORD.

"I will put my law in their minds

and write it on their hearts.

I will be their God,

and they will be my people.

 

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,

or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'

because they will all know me,

from the least of them to the greatest,"

declares the LORD.

"For I will forgive their wickedness

and will remember their sins no more."

 

Perhaps you didn't notice this but it says the covenant will not be like before...MEANING that they aren't going to be WRITTEN on STONES OR PAPER but IN your HEART and MIND. "THE" Law refers to the 613 commandments of the OLD TESTAMENT. Also, it says no one will need to teach you because you will know him whether great or least.

[Grandpa Harley]

Hey, just a thought, I am not very intelligent, but can ocassionally understand when grace is warranted.

 

It's not lack of intelligence, more lack of application. And being dumb as a fence post is not a badge of honour, it's something to be overcome...

[South2003]

34 "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

 

So why was there a need for a blood sacrifice, god killed himself to appease himself?

[mwc]

So why was there a need for a blood sacrifice, god killed himself to appease himself?

There's a funny thing about all this...

 

Blood sacrifices technically were never supposed to end. And when the "end" comes and the "kingdom" is all setup on earth blood sacrifice, along with rest of the Torah Law, will all be restored. So that whole "jesus" thing? Meaningless...unless you think a brief timeout from doing those things to divide people into the church group and the non-church group is all worth it...then it's really a wonderful plan.

 

All the rest of the rules in the bible work like this: Law comes from the Torah (the first 5 books) and that is it. Xians and some others got "laws" by re-interpreting the books of the prophets. That's not really allowed so these "rules" are tossed away in the "end." The Jews have Rabbinic laws that didn't come from the Torah but they differentiate those. It sounds more complicated than it is. The short version is xianity took a lot of crap from places that it shouldn't and said "This is now law" and where the Law was it said "That doesn't matter anymore."

 

The problem is with things like the passage you saw. It says that the Law (the Torah Law) will be THE Law and that will be that. It will undo the New Covenant that supposedly un-did the Old Covenant and then it will re-instate the Old Covenant for all time.

 

One more important thing to note. The people being ruled by all this mess are ALIVE. Not dead. It's important to note that YHWH is a god of the living and not of the dead (this is an extremely important concept that xians overlook every single day). So none of this applies to a "heaven" but only to the living people on the earth. Once you are dead then you are left alone. If you get the resurrection then, and only then, does YHWH have anything to do with you. That's why Jews of the period wanted the resurrection otherwise they'd miss out and only living Jews would benefit from these things. Their god and messiah were like a benevolent king for the living only.

 

Ooops...once again that went a lot longer than I had planned.

 

mwc