Salvation A Free Gift?

[ShackledNoMore]

Also, does anyone know of a clear scriptural reference which states salvation is a free gift? I ask because I never got that impression from the bible.

Myrthra's reference to Ephesians 2:8 is more apt, but I wonder if Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" is a bigger contributor to the impression many xians have that salvation is a free gift: that's one of the two or three top memorized and quoted verses by evangelicals, and it's very commonly used by them to sell salvation to their targets as a free gift. Of course if you read it in context, you'll see some of the same problems with "free gift" idea as you do in this thread, right within the same chapter--Ephesians really is a better example. But that doesn't matter. Romans 6:23, by itself, not all of chapter 6, is what they bombard you with. It's primo in church services (particularly revival services), tracts, and "witnessing."

[mwc]

FREE! for $1600 FREE! for $1600

You are talking to someone where 1=3 and 3=1. Free can equal $1600. Makes sense.

 

mwc

[Brother Jeff]

Well... I have some FREE stero equipment that I bought five years. I paid 2000 dollars for it, and I will give it to you for free for only 1600 dollars! Yes you heard right folks, it's FREE for only 1600 bucks! FREE! $1600 dollars. FREE!

 

FREE! for $1600 FREE! for $1600

I'll take it! I love paying for free stuff! Glory!

[Ouroboros]

Well, I think I understand what kind of "free" they're talking about. Sometimes when you sign up for something, like a gym, or spa, or a phone service, you sometimes get a gift with it. Basically, this kind of gift is the ones you get "without further costs", but it's not the same as the kind of gift you get on Christmas. I'd say salvation is a gift you get when you sign up for the "long distance phone plan" called Christianity, like you get a phone for "free", but it will also cost you penalty if you try to get out of it ahead of time...

 

In Sweden I know there's an advertizing law, where you can't call something like this "free", it has to be labelled "without further costs". "If you buy one of this, you get this one without further costs", instead of "if you buy this one, you'll get this one for free", because it is misleading advertizing (and against the law). They should make the same law here, and we'll get rid of the misleading "free salvation" phrase.

[SWIM]

LOL It is *very* easy to see why more xtians fail to come into these threads... It's like throwing a rabit into a pen full of starving dogs...

 

Perhaps if you send more of your friends here...

 

 

METHINKING about "return of the living dead", where the zombie picks up the radio mike and says "send more cops".... /METHINKING

 

 

ROFLMAO ....

[ShackledNoMore]

Well, I think I understand what kind of "free" they're talking about. Sometimes when you sign up for something, like a gym, or spa, or a phone service, you sometimes get a gift with it. Basically, this kind of gift is the ones you get "without further costs", but it's not the same as the kind of gift you get on Christmas. I'd say salvation is a gift you get when you sign up for the "long distance phone plan" called Christianity, like you get a phone for "free", but it will also cost you penalty if you try to get out of it ahead of time...

 

In Sweden I know there's an advertizing law, where you can't call something like this "free", it has to be labelled "without further costs". "If you buy one of this, you get this one without further costs", instead of "if you buy this one, you'll get this one for free", because it is misleading advertizing (and against the law). They should make the same law here, and we'll get rid of the misleading "free salvation" phrase.

A broken phone, a lifetime contract, 10% of your income, plus constant favors you need to do for da boss. Then, when it comes time to "cash in" your "free gift," which comes only at the end of your contract, the company is suddenly gone. What a deal!

[Brother Jeff]

A broken phone, a lifetime contract, 10% of your income, plus constant favors you need to do for da boss. Then, when it comes time to "cash in" your "free gift," which comes only at the end of your contract, the company is suddenly gone. What a deal!

Wow, that does sound awesome! Glory! Where can I sign up?

[Guest end3]

Do ya'll see the works, (post gift), as somehow paying for that gift? Salvation would offer protection from harm, not accepting that would be accepting harm, by def. moral injury, evil, wrong.

 

GH,

Do you see Christ as a sacrifice to someone?

[white_raven23]

Do ya'll see the works, (post gift), as somehow paying for that gift?

 

WTF???

 

YES!!!

 

How is getting something, then doing tasks to earn that something make that something a "gift"?

 

On x-mas morning, when you hand out presents to your kids, do you then say "Okay kids! Time to earn your gifts! Go shovel the driveway! Say no, and I'll take back the presents!"

 

Salvation would offer protection from harm, not accepting that would be accepting harm, by def. moral injury, evil, wrong.

 

So god's like....a mob boss then? What kind of kidergarten reasoning makes this seem sensible to you? Or represent reality in any way? You know damn well that "saved" people are not protected from harm! They get into car crashes, their kids die in house fires, they lose their jobs.....they are no more or less at risk for the rough spots in life than anyone else regardless of what beliefs or unbeliefs they have!

 

Shit....giving money to a real and human mob boss would get you better results!

 

Do you see Christ as a sacrifice to someone?

 

I see sacrifice as totally unneccesary. If a supreme being wanted to offer salvation, they would just offer the salvation! What "price" does a supreme being have to pay? If I bake a cake, I don't have to give money to myself to have a piece of it, which I would have to do if I went to a diner and wanted a piece of their cake.

 

So is jesus supposed to be the offspring of some "other" supreme being? The christian god wanted a piece of Yahweh's (god of the jews) playground, so the price for a portion of the available worshippers was his son?

 

Actually, that makes sense....if you've got more than one god, neither of which is "supreme".

[Japedo]

Do ya'll see the works, (post gift), as somehow paying for that gift? Salvation would offer protection from harm, not accepting that would be accepting harm, by def. moral injury, evil, wrong.

 

GH,

Do you see Christ as a sacrifice to someone?

 

 

End. No. There is no gift, there is nothing free involved in the Christian mindset.

 

If someone came up behind you right now and put a loaded gun to your head and said... You have the free choice to Live and kiss my ass forever on a tightrope of bending to my will or you have the choice to suffer, be maimed, tortured, eaten alive by bugs, and fire. Would the choice here be made freely? In other words..

 

Hell is the gun to the head.

 

God is the abuser/killer. Any human that did this would be considered Evil, barbaric and put in prison for life or killed.

 

Every choice made by Christians is made out of fear of what will happen if they don't believe. They don't freely kiss gods ass and worship him, they do so to avoid some believed eternal punishment.

 

 

As far as Christ. (Hypothetically speaking, I don't believe he ever lived in the first place.. but I'll post it for shits and giggles)

 

1) If he's alive now He never died, hence there was no 'sacrifice'.

 

2) Who was god killing himself for? Himself or man?

 

 

3) Why would god have to kill himself to forgive anyone?

 

Wouldn't the god of all who was just and good just forgive without the requirement of spilling blood? When we think about ancient human sacrifices. Where Innocent people are given to the gods to atone for some bullshit sin on an alter, we are appalled at these barbarians who brutally killed a virgin or child. Christians believe they are somehow above that, but yet relish in blood and gore of supposed innocence. They are selfish beings who follow a blood cult. They sing songs of praise to blood. It's no different the ancient ones that are appalling. As I say, it's all redone sunworship.

 

Communion is ritual cannibalism, eating the flesh of godmen to become more god like.. eating the flesh and drinking of blood. It's is repulsive and Christians take joy and pride in this barbaric ritual again centered around death and blood. You can not divorce your dogma from uncomfortable facts.

[Grandpa Harley]

GH,

Do you see Christ as a sacrifice to someone?

 

As a non-believer I don't see it as much more than a Messianic-Cult terrorist and horse theif getting Roman 'Justice', otherwise I only know the doctrine I'm told and that is that, somehow, Josh died for me... and tbh, I don't see how a God killing himself in a pretty poor showing of a crucifixion (4 poxy hours? FEH! If the shock didn't take you out with the first nail, 9 hours was common... People could last for days up there...) and then NOT killing himself permanently but for a little less than 48 hours should impress me in a John 3:16 way, especially as there is the zinger of John 3:18...

[Deva]

Do ya'll see the works, (post gift), as somehow paying for that gift? Salvation would offer protection from harm, not accepting that would be accepting harm, by def. moral injury, evil, wrong.

 

End3, you are making a lot of assumptions here. How is it a gift? How does salvation offer protection from harm?

It confers no benefit in day-to-day life. People who are "saved" xians get sick, go broke, see friends and family die, etc., just like everyone else. So what is the benefit, other than something outside of life?

 

Obviously, yes, works are a payment. What else could they be?

[Onyx]

You'd have to admit that whoever started Christianity must be the greatest conman who ever lived. Christianity, while stupid to our minds, is the foolproof invention for getting money from anybody it seduces.

 

Whoever penned up these seductive yet inherently contradictory dictures must have learned from the very best and knew a lot about previous religious traditions, which he probably used them to his advantage. Nowadays, it would still stand up as one of the great con jobs of the modern age if it was invented today (Just look at Scientology- they used the same techniques as Christianity in exorting monery while peddling illogical and contradictory depsite its avowed hatred of it and you'd see what I mean.)

 

I grudgingly tip my hat to this anonymous con man who managed to make conning look legal and proper (No mean feat) and create one of the biggest religions ever in the process. I feel sad for humanity if it can outwit and delude itself like this.

[Grandpa Harley]

That would be this guy... He suckered in Constantine the Mad Limey, and ended up with the church running the show within 100 years...

[lemon]

Also, does anyone know of a clear scriptural reference which states salvation is a free gift? I ask because I never got that impression from the bible.

 

Well, let's see..

 

We have this - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(Ephesians 2:8-9)

 

And, with the biblical contradiction of the day -

 

We have this - In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:33)

 

But if I am doing all these things to be saved, I can certainy boast about it. The OP needs to come back and justify every assertion she made before attempting to ram nonsense down everyone's throats, LOL. Christians tend not to back themselves up with facts...then again, facts according to who?

[lemon]

Do ya'll see the works, (post gift), as somehow paying for that gift? Salvation would offer protection from harm, not accepting that would be accepting harm, by def. moral injury, evil, wrong.

 

GH,

Do you see Christ as a sacrifice to someone?

 

I guess this is something which makes me different from many ex-christians and even the christian who posted the free gift diatribe with one million requirements. As I see obedience, faith, hope, etc, as post gift...something that develops in the believing person after salvation had already taken place.

 

I know you were addressing the last question to GH, but personally, I don't see the biblical sacrifice of Christ as to something but rather for something (namely salvation of humanity). According to the bible, christ was a god-man who was able to stop any kind of suffering he would have faced for humanity. Although that says a lot in a good way (in my eyes it does), it is not on par with the other image of God that we get from the bible (specifically the OT). But even in the NT, some concepts just don't add up with what is going on with the real world and some biblical assertions appear to be blatantly dishonest to many people. To some it is the concept of a "free gift" to others like me, it is the issue of faith.

[Guest end3]

I have an obligation this morning, but will be back later......but if it were a new covenant, how would it be new if it dictated more of the same, and why to Himself. I doesn't make sense the need to sacrifice to Himself.

[Ouroboros]

I have an obligation this morning, but will be back later......but if it were a new covenant, how would it be new if it dictated more of the same, and why to Himself. I doesn't make sense the need to sacrifice to Himself.

Did God make a mistake with the first covenant?

 

And you're damn right it doesn't make sense that he needed to sacrifice to himself, but that's exactly what the Bible tells you!!! You're finally waking up End3!

 

Listen, God created humans, God created the devil, God created Hell, God put the humans in a tricky situation where they were tempted to be disobediant before they even knew what was right and wrong (basically gave a nuclear bomb to a 2 years old). God declare he will punish people by sending them to Hell for eternity. He gives the "solution" by creating the Jewish religion and for thousands of years people die and go to Hell. Then finally God comes up with the answer, to sacrifice Jesus (God) to God (himself), so he can be pleased and "forgive" humans their outrageous sins (they ate a fruit... *GASP*!!!)

 

So again, think about it, Jesus was God, and Jesus was sacrificed to God. It is a riddiculous belief!

[Grandpa Harley]

I have an obligation this morning, but will be back later......but if it were a new covenant, how would it be new if it dictated more of the same, and why to Himself. I doesn't make sense the need to sacrifice to Himself.

 

Welcome to my world!

[SWIM]

Actually it does sound a bit like End3 is de-converting. Is this true End3? I wish you luck if you are, it is a wonderful thing to see people wake up from a bad dream.

[Guest end3]

To answer most of the statements, I see the works as something that takes place as a testament of faith, like a donation to this website, because you believe in the premise. Kevin, if ya'll get extra $ in due to this explanation, a Melchizedek 10% would be nice.

 

WR,

I don't know why the protection is not from everything we perceive as harm. A great question, but the only explanation I have is maybe these things are needed to make us more complete, to push or pull us more near the truth. Sure, a lame explanation, but that is all I have.

 

Hans,

So you think the Jewish people will not be included? Why would the pre-Christ people not share in the redemptive work of Christ.

 

Doesn't it say that Christ was the fulfillment, or "filled the cup all the way on the OT covenant", so no more could be done to that agreement, it was complete. So why does it make sense that a new atonement covenant would be necessary? So, I see it as a direction, a way to follow, as I surrender my time/life for something higher, the needs of my neighbor.

 

No, I don't think He made a mistake with the first covenant, but doesn't it say that that agreement could not impart eternal life.

 

DL,

If I now am part of what would be Christ coming to see you, it might be as simple as helping with something that is really bothering you. i.e. I could fix a broken faucet, or install a burglar alarm to prevent a crime, maybe to help alleviate your worries. I don't know if these are specific to you, just examples.

 

GH,

Don't you think the return of Chirst was proof that the things He said were true? If you choose this (to believe, have faith in that direction, and sacrifice the same), that this (new body) will be the result?

 

Seems as though this conversation will lead to "show me a Heaven". Maybe the only way that can be accomplished is in brief glimpses, (in part), of what Heaven is like, and that would be the works from the heart, like tears in a rainstorm GH, the ones with salt in them.

[Ouroboros]

Hans,

So you think the Jewish people will not be included? Why would the pre-Christ people not share in the redemptive work of Christ.

 

Doesn't it say that Christ was the fulfillment, or "filled the cup all the way on the OT covenant", so no more could be done to that agreement, it was complete. So why does it make sense that a new atonement covenant would be necessary? So, I see it as a direction, a way to follow, as I surrender my time/life for something higher, the needs of my neighbor.

 

No, I don't think He made a mistake with the first covenant, but doesn't it say that that agreement could not impart eternal life.

If the first covenant was good enough, then why make a new one? Do you think the first one was good enough to save the world? If so why get rid of it? If not, then who's fault is that?

 

Is the "new" covenant any better, when 2/3:rds of the world is still non-Christian, and 90% of Christians aren't "True" Christians? You end up with a handful of people that go to heaven, or is it that it's not so important to exactly what you believe after all? It seems there is a lot of leaway with different covenants and thousands of different denominations with very different views on the Bible.

 

And it seems you didn't respond to the other question.

 

End3, are you really one person, or are you multiple people using the same account and pretending to be the same one? It seems like the quality of you language really goes up and down.

[Deva]

To answer most of the statements, I see the works as something that takes place as a testament of faith, like a donation to this website, because you believe in the premise. Kevin, if ya'll get extra $ in due to this explanation, a Melchizedek 10% would be nice.

 

DL,

If I now am part of what would be Christ coming to see you, it might be as simple as helping with something that is really bothering you. i.e. I could fix a broken faucet, or install a burglar alarm to prevent a crime, maybe to help alleviate your worries. I don't know if these are specific to you, just examples.

 

End3- We have major communication problems. I freely admit I seriously can't understand what you say most of the time. Do I take it you believe that if I am "saved" people will come and help me with whatever problems I have, otherwise no? If so, how do I prove this to be true? When I believed, no one helped me. To me, that is proof enough.

 

I donate to this website because it has been helpful to me - how does that relate with works happening as a result of faith, and not a condition of salvation?

[Deva]

End3, are you really one person, or are you multiple people using the same account and pretending to be the same one? It seems like the quality of you language really goes up and down.

 

I suspect you are right Han. This language now is completely different that what End3 used when writing his/her first thread on "Moses's Glowing Face."

[AndreasBolle]

Hans,

So you think the Jewish people will not be included? Why would the pre-Christ people not share in the redemptive work of Christ.

 

Doesn't it say that Christ was the fulfillment, or "filled the cup all the way on the OT covenant", so no more could be done to that agreement, it was complete. So why does it make sense that a new atonement covenant would be necessary? So, I see it as a direction, a way to follow, as I surrender my time/life for something higher, the needs of my neighbor.

 

No, I don't think He made a mistake with the first covenant, but doesn't it say that that agreement could not impart eternal life.

If the first covenant was good enough, then why make a new one? Do you think the first one was good enough to save the world? If so why get rid of it? If not, then who's fault is that?

 

Is the "new" covenant any better, when 2/3:rds of the world is still non-Christian, and 90% of Christians aren't "True" Christians? You end up with a handful of people that go to heaven, or is it that it's not so important to exactly what you believe after all? It seems there is a lot of leaway with different covenants and thousands of different denominations with very different views on the Bible.

 

And it seems you didn't respond to the other question.

 

End3, are you really one person, or are you multiple people using the same account and pretending to be the same one? It seems like the quality of you language really goes up and down.

 

Maybe therein lies the answer. Only room enough for a handful.