Christmas

[Alice]

I see what I did. Comments read and acknowledged. Thanks.........except for the 'you ass' part. Shows a bit childishness and superiority on your part that isn't flattering to you.

 

JS,

 

you continue to make assumptions.

 

I always 'own' what I say to other people. Any percieved childishness and superiority lies in your perception and actually says very little about me. When I called you an 'ass' - it was both because by your own definition this was how you were behaving and because from where I'm standing it was 'witty'.

 

You ask - are babies born perfect?

 

babies are born with a predetermined propensity to certain traits. How they then develop is a combination of their genes, circumstances and life events and the interaction of these variables.

 

Perfection is an illusion, an ideal and not one that I see is relevent to babies.

[justsomeone]

Are all babies perfect creatures and only get screwed up when they get older?

 

This perfection obsession Christians have is all fantasy. Understand, nobody is perfect. Not because of an apple eating incident in a garden. We are not perfect in the same way my dog is not perfect. We are animals. We are products of our genetics, our upbringing and our circumstances. Babies act on instinct. Hungry belly, they make a noise, that noise is crying and its purpose is to get your attention. As they grow and their brains develop, they learn a more complex mode of communication- speaking. Christians make a strange interpretation of this developmental stage when they say we are all born selfish and demanding. That is their interpretation of a parents response to their infants needs. Yes, when you are woke in the middle of the night to care for a crying baby, nobody is 100% filled with joy. Humans have the capacity to think about and interpret these things. when a dog has pups, it just does. Pups get hungry, dog feeds them. Instincts. Babies cry, they get fed, they survive. It is one of the survival instincts our species evolved.

 

You asked if babies get screwed up later as they get older. Again, everything viewed through this lens of perfect or sinful. When a toddler bops the cat wit a toy and the cat runs, is that sin? Or did the toddler just see a cause and effect situation and want to replicate? We teach children what is right and wrong. I also don't consider honest mistakes to be sin. If someone does something deliberately bad, are they just evil or are there other forces at work that are more benign.

 

That is one thing I didn't quite understand about christianity. They were always trying to dig deeper and deeper to figure out what is sin. And every tiny little infracion- conscious or subconscious has this eternal consequence.

 

Oh that really hurts, Mad and it is so helpful because it is so imformative. If that is your best contribution to our discussion I look forward to much 'light' from you. Right! With statements like that you've proven nothing but that you are very juvenile and vulgar. Do you eat with that mouth?

 

Well at least you stopped simpering and whimpering. I'm civil when I see cause to be. There is something about your posts that are disingenuous. It's that falsey christian humility act. "oh sinner, you got me, I'm not smart or clever, ok, I guess I screwed up but I just love the lord and want to help you, aren't I so nice and meek and non threatening." *sigh* You want some kind of response from us, but frankly you are not going to get any further here than I would get walking into a church and trying to convince people there of atheism.

 

And yes, I eat with this mouth and kiss my husband. He likes it.

 

BTW, I sure hope some or most of those 11 kids are adopted. Nothing is more irritating than people (think Duggars) who think their soul pupose on earth is to repopulate it with their dna.

 

Hi Mad,

 

Actually my kids are all created by my wife and I and I am sorry to say (not really) but they are products me lusting for and bopping my wife in a very joyful way. My soul purpose is not to populate the earth with my dna, it is to 'get into my wifes pants' please excuse the vulgar term, but ti fits and if I keep talking this I may go try for #12 in a minute!

 

I like your thoughts on the perfection issue. Eye opening.

 

js

[Ouroboros]

The kingdom of heaven is within.

 

I too see this as a very internal thing.

Exactly.

 

Now I will take a small step towards a philosophical view of the Gospel story:

 

Here's the thing, Jesus is a symbol. He is not necessarily a person or a living being or even a historical person, but a symbol for you, and me, how we should struggle to die from our childish and dependent behavior and get born into a new nature which is the independent and free being that act morally right just because we just do. The whole Jesus story is an allegory for growing up into the moral autonomous agent that doesn't need a book or a religion anymore. Jesus is like Buddha, he is not in himself the real way, but he is the way in the sense of the symbol or act of what we also should do, which is mature out of moral slavery. With moral slavery I mean the way most people do moral things are based on the fear of punishment, they don't do it because they want to do the right thing, but only because they fear the rod on the back. The person who can act right and good without a higher authority, to whip them into it, is a Christ person. Do you see what I'm saying here? The importance of the story about Jesus is not Jesus as a person in history that you pray to or ask for help, but he is like prototype or a template in which you look at yourself in a mirror and you realize that you should do the same thing, die and be born again. The faith here isn't about God, or Jesus, or some supernatural things, but about You are this Jesus and You should die from your old desires and be resurrected, the gnosis, through the power of words of wisdom, sophia, into this new person of understanding.

 

I think that you should seriously consider study Philosophy, and particullary the field of ethics, and you'll be shocked how much Plato, Aristotle et al plays into this and how the Bible can be read as a muddy copy of philosophical ideas, but gets clearer when you know what those old boys said (and more recent ones, and contemporary, too).

[Ouroboros]

Note to everyone:

 

Respect the rules of the Colosseum! No mud slinging.

 

I will at this point go back and remove all posts I consider in non compliance.

[SWIM]

I got a question for justsomeone:

 

Why do you feel the need to raise so many kids? You stated you have 11 kids and are adopting 2 more. Something does not seem right about this, in another thread you said you had "limited income". For one, how does a person get approved from an adoption agency with low funds and 11 kids? How do you get approved for 2 more in that situation?

 

And why are you trying to raise 13 kids? Isn't 11 excessive? Why two more?

 

Just want to hear you justify/explain this. I raised two kids and that was a job and a half, but 13???? WOW just WOW... IF you really do have low funds, isn't that cruel to the kids, that otherwise might find a more "stable" household?

 

Is the reason you want large amounts of kids is so you can create your own little xtian army or something? Just guessing here, no idea why you would make this type of decision, and I am also curious as to how you got approved... That many kids already, with a low income should have got you nothing but denials.

[justsomeone]

Hi Michael,

 

Thanks for asking. I like talking about my philosophy of living this mad, crazy life.

 

Your questions in bld as Han suggested.

 

You stated you have 11 kids and are adopting 2 more. Something does not seem right about this, in another thread you said you had "limited income". For one, how does a person get approved from an adoption agency with low funds and 11 kids? How do you get approved for 2 more in that situation?

 

Please call me anytime about the adoption stuff. not only do I have very limited income, my job is very unstable. Adoption agencies seem to care more for your ability to overcome obsticals than the obsticals themselves and I applaud them for this. Also adoption agencies are looking for good stable homes for needy kids and financial income is only one concern. I have made them feel totally confindent in my ability to do both and I would talk with you if you want to know more. I find it absolutely amazing too that we can do this with so little $$$$$$$. We have a very clean and healthy household and we are all as happy as the next guy.

 

And why are you trying to raise 13 kids? Isn't 11 excessive? Why two more?

 

11 is not only excessive it' s downright crazy! My wife and I just had it in us to want a bunch of kids as we were growing up. I have no idea why such a reality was in us. I did not meet my wife until about 25 years ago. Kids range from 3 to 22. 2 more because we see a need, my friend.

 

Just want to hear you justify/explain this. I raised two kids and that was a job and a half, but 13???? WOW just WOW... IF you really do have low funds, isn't that cruel to the kids, that otherwise might find a more "stable" household?

 

2 kids and even 1 child is exhausting. We like to tell people it gets easier. More to help? Low funds isn't even close to describing our funds but I can tell you how another place and another time if you are interested. I hope I get pm privileges soon. Jeeese, cruel. What do you think I am? No Michael, it is not cruel, it works great for us. Many problems, but we have not met anyone without problems. Like you say, your 2 have challenged you. Let me add this. We homeschool all of them, always have. 3 are out of the house and not in jail so I consider myself successful. Good relationships with all and they are all very free thinkers, very free. When I say they are not in jail, let me tell you, a couple should be! Just kidding. They have lives and beliefs quite different from mine and I applaud them for it.

 

Is the reason you want large amounts of kids is so you can create your own little xtian army or something?

 

Funny guy. Kind of explained that already.

 

Just guessing here, no idea why you would make this type of decision, and I am also curious as to how you got approved... That many kids already, with a low income should have got you nothing but denials.

 

It was a concern of the adoption agency but they have went through our lives with a fine toothed comb for years and we are approved.

 

Michael, I am no great thing. I seek security and it eludes my in the physical realm but I do find it elsewhere. I am finding it even here through the serious caring people like I suspect you to be.

 

js

 

ps: How's that Han? And this is the last time I will ask as asking takes up space too!

[hereticzero]

Sounds more like foster care than adoptions.

[SWIM]

We homeschool all of them, always have. 3 are out of the house and not in jail so I consider myself successful.

 

Nobody should be patted on the back for doing what you are naturally supposed to do anyway. You are NOT supposed to go to jail! LOL

 

Home schooling...

 

That concept bothers me deeply. I have a fundy in-law and my biggest pet pev is the home schooling. She's not even college educated, and very *fundy*. she makes them memorize bible passages, and puts a biblical "spin" on everything she teaches. She also teaches them creationism.

 

Not only do most home schoolers of the xtian variety give false data, they are making the xtian brainwashing STRONG in them. This isn't fair, and it's child abuse IMHO. Sure they might break free eventually, but life will be hard for them with such a distorted, delussional view on everything.

 

Also, public schools teach kids about humans. How other kids act as "children" is a good way to gain insight into how other people think and operate. The "social" aspect of school is important.

 

I told you I raised two girls. They are adults now, one is graduated college and makes more money then I did in my heyday (retired now) and married to a great guy who is also a pilot. MY other girl is about to graduate college as well, with a great job. They are both responsible, very nice people, they don't party or "go to jail" lol

 

Neither were home schooled. I *seriously* doubt they would be successful had they been either.

 

You lost MEGA points on the respect meter with me when you tell me you are home schooling, I am strongly against it, and I pity your kids.

 

But, this is the USA ( I assume you are american) and you have a right to do that. I wish I was in charge of accepting/rejecting your adoption application, I will give you three guesses as to how I would vote on your application (first two guesses don't count). All I can say is you are lucky this is the coliseum and not the lion's den.

 

grrrrrrr....

[SWIM]

Sounds more like foster care than adoptions.

 

Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking. Some people, even with good incomes, education and no criminal records have problems adopting, it seems really bizzarre that he got approved...

[hereticzero]

Let me ask you, why is anyone led to believe in anything outside of science like love? Do you believe in love? If so, why?

 

I don't believe love falls outside of science. Love is a real response to a real need. Love can be fake and love can be real but one does not need religion or Jesus to love someone else. Love can also be the result of bonding with someone. People are born with love in them. They are taught to hate as they grow older. I see this in little children. Children accept everyone for who they are until they are taught to distinguish one person from another or they begin to argue over possessions, etc. Then it is up to adults to redirect them to share with others and teach them what is important and what is not. I've not seen children hate someone from the time they can walk but it grows as the result of their peers, upbringing, and envionment. I'm no kiddy psych but my wife and I have provided respite care of many kids with special needs.

[hereticzero]

I homeschooled my son for the first few years. he has ADHA and could not keep up with school schedule and fell so far behind he could not catch up on his own speed. ADHA kids are controversial in some schools--some people don't believe adha is a real ailment. Anyone with an adha kid knows it is. We even tried the medication but quit after he got sick from it and we don't medicate him anymore and he has performed better without it. I fought with the public schools who were trying to brow beat us to medicate him when alll he really needed was more one on one time and I plainly told the school he was not getting medicated just to make their lives easier and him more compliant. Kids are kids and they are all defiant. Live with it. Your school career passes or fails according to how well you keep up with the school schedule and not your own--as perhaps we all know. The school would let him sit in class all day and do nothing if that is what he wanted to do. My biggest objection to public school is how kids with needs are managed. Some schools do a wonderful job at it and others are incompetent to teach so-called normal kids. When I found out the school just let him sit, I took him home and homeschooled him until he was up to speed with the rest of the kids and now he is back in public school. He is not the top of his class, but he is learning and coping with skills my wife and I taught him by taking the time to homeschool him and give him one on one attention until he was able to understand what he was suppose to do at school. Homeschooling is not always bad and it is not always given by religious ding bats. My cousin homeschooled all of her kids until they entered high school and they have all graduated and gone into military and professional careers. You get back what you put into your kids. I am in favor of homeschooling and I'd do it again if he were at risk of falling behind again.

[Grandpa Harley]

Sounds more like foster care than adoptions.

 

Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking. Some people, even with good incomes, education and no criminal records have problems adopting, it seems really bizzarre that he got approved...

 

Bizzare is not the word I'd use...

[GraphicsGuy]

May I ask what you think makes you so valuable?

 

Other people value me.

I ask questions.

I make other people ask questions.

I don't settle with pat answers.

I rarely take the "easy road"

My little girl needs me.

I will be here if/when my older kids start questioning life/faith/etc.

I am different.

I can do anything I put my mind to.

I care.

I am compassionate.

I am understanding.

 

Just a smattering of things...all of which I am/can do without a god supposedly "helping" me.

[Ouroboros]

ps: How's that Han? And this is the last time I will ask as asking takes up space too!

So much better. Thank you.

 

Btw, FYI, my real name is Hans, but it's okay if you say Han too. I'm used to it. (Having asian friends and co-workers...)

[Jillian]

Justsomeone wrote:

J,

 

You stated

 

"I don't really think that something intrinsic/instinctual within each and every one of us has to actually BE believed IN. It just is, much like having to go to the loo, having to eat and these things are just things we DO from birth and no guidance book is required to tell us HOW to do these things or to tell us we SHOULD. Do you believe in faeces, justsomeone? Yes silly question I realise but just as ludicrous as the one you asked."

 

I find this an awesome thought. Thanks.

 

If God is real maybe knowledge of this God will or does happen in exactly the same way.

 

I think if God created us then deep down there is God in each one of us and it will intrinsically and instinctually find it's way to the surface.

 

The simple fact that you say "IF" to both your god comments....IF god is real....IF god created......, means there is question as to it, hence it is not an instinctual/intrinsic and naturally occuring "JUST IS".

 

 

Kind of like our kids. There is a bit of us in them.

 

I don't see how this is possibly the same. I will ask this though. Did you have to believe in love first in order TO love your kids? Did you have to read about it in a book?

 

jusysomeone wrote:

You ask

 

"Do you believe in faeces, justsomeone? "

 

What is faeces? Feces? Crap? Poop? Excrement?

 

Yes it is the same thing. Faeces is the ENGLISH spelling, not the American English. (ENGLISH is the standardised here in Aust. - see? no "Z" in the word standardised)

 

justsomeone wrote:

If this is what you mean, what do you mean, 'Do I believe in it?'

 

I meant do you believe in it? It was in reply to your just as ludicrous question to me of "do you believe in love".

 

 

 

I like your 'accent'.

 

Sehr Guter! Danke!

[justsomeone]

Home Study is in the works as I type. They told us about a month. I didn't realize we are such an oddity.

 

js

[SWIM]

Home Study is in the works as I type. They told us about a month. I didn't realize we are such an oddity.

 

js

 

 

PLEASE move this to the den,,,

 

please?

[Grandpa Harley]

Seconded...

 

and the word is 'Freakshow'...

[justsomeone]

We homeschool all of them, always have.

 

I KNEW it. I was right in the comments I have since removed. I know so many christians like this, so many. Living on the edge of poverty, birthing out kids right and left, mom never gets out of the house or gets job skills because she is stuck in the home forever birthing and schooling. I bet your wife reads Above Rubies and your yearly vacation is to some christian homeschooling convention of like minded folk. My last two churches were full of families just like yours. I regard families such as this miniature cults.

 

 

Michael- DITTO to EVERYTHING you said. I am disgusted with the christian tendency towards homeschooling. I personally know several families who think "science education" is reading Kent Hovind junk. It's a personal pet peeve of mine.

 

Mad, you seem to really have it all figured out.

 

You make it sound bad. What's wrong with living on the edge of poverty if you are well kept, happy and responsible in paying all your bills and are considered a responsible person by banks, adoption people and so forth.

 

What's wrong with Above Rubies, whatever that is?

 

Never take a yearly vacation. We tend to take long weekends but usually never travel far enough to need to stay anywhere other than home. We enjoy this and it works for us.

 

I'm sorry you have been exposed to families that cause you such disgust within. It must be hard to live in a world where people do things so different from what you think is the right way that it causes you such disgust.

 

As to home schooling that you and Michael are against. I can take it or leave it. I really can. We have nothing against the public schools here anyway. My wife just really wanted to do this and it has worked quite well from what I see. Don't worry the kids are not brainwashed any more than some public school kids I know are. I would not desribe my kids as even Christian. The God I see does is not overly concerned with such labels. They are people.

 

js

[justsomeone]

Home Study is in the works as I type. They told us about a month. I didn't realize we are such an oddity.

 

js

 

 

PLEASE move this to the den,,,

 

please?

 

Hey Michael,

 

Make a new topic on homeschooling or whatever it is you want over there and then we can get real ugly and nasty discussing it. We can try to outdo each other with insults and derogatory comments. Can't beat a good time!

 

js

[justsomeone]

Michael, your comments in bold.

 

You lost MEGA points on the respect meter with me when you tell me you are home schooling, I am strongly against it, and I pity your kids.

 

I will earn those points back somehow. I will. Don't pity the kids, they're happy. I know some public school kids that need pitying.

 

Home schooling...That concept bothers me deeply.

 

Life's too short to be bothered by what others do unless what they are doing is directly damaging to you or yours. Do you really think our public school system has less flaws than home schooling? We have many 'public school' friends and we get along and get togther regularly.

 

I have a fundy in-law and my biggest pet pev is the home schooling. She's not even college educated, and very *fundy*. she makes them memorize bible passages, and puts a biblical "spin" on everything she teaches. She also teaches them creationism.

 

I have heard of worse things parents teach their kids and I am talking public school parents and kids. I drive school bus part time and have been for 16 years and the things I have seen and heard regularly from some of the kids really makes me sad for them. I get along with all the kids.

 

They are neat people and you know what?

 

This is an aside but it is so amazing to be a bus driver for so long. I am now dropping off kids of some of kids I use to drop off!

 

I wish I was in charge of accepting/rejecting your adoption application, I will give you three guesses as to how I would vote on your application (first two guesses don't count). All I can say is you are lucky this is the coliseum and not the lion's den.

 

Well I guess I am glad you are not our case worker or maybe I wish you were. I'm a bit scared about this. As to being lucky this is not in the lion's den, bring it on friend. (Hopefully 'friend' doesn't offend.)

 

js

[justsomeone]

Hans,

 

An aside here. I can't contact an adiministrator. I would like to post a new topic in maybe the arena. It is something I have been bothered about for a very long time. It has been touched upon often but I thought a more focused look would at least help me.

 

It's about all the cruelty people do to each other. You know, man's inhumanity to man kind of thing?

 

Whether Christian people or non Christian, people can go to extreme limits to harm and hate others. No group of people have a corner on being selfish, ignorant, bigoted and so forth. I have struggled with this for many years and may have some useful input. I know from the comments I have heard in this forum that there are people I need to hear from.

 

I cannot start new topics anywhere it seems either.

 

Could you relay this message and maybe have someone at least contact me?

 

Thanks.

 

js

[Jillian]

so....is this topic going to be shifted to the Lions Den? PLEEAASSE?

[justsomeone]

so....is this topic going to be shifted to the Lions Den? PLEEAASSE?

 

Can't any of you chosen ones go to Lion's Den and start a new topic? I will certainly join in.

 

And I say 'chosen ones' with tongue in cheek and no offense intended. It fits when compared to me at least. I am defintely not a 'favorite' here. But all is good and I am growing to respect this forum and you all more and more as I interact.

 

js

[Alice]

Are you on some kind of ban JS? I thought ayone could start a thread in the Lion's Den.