Christmas

[Jillian]

Sonya, bearing in mind that this is the Colosseum and not the Lion's Den I'm going to say this as politely as I can.

 

I reject your god-concept and the alleged sacrifice of god-as-its-own-son because I reject the idea of substitutionary atonement.

 

To me it is dreadful, mind-warping, immoral nonsense.

 

I reject this 'gift' as I find it completely abhorrent.

 

Do you ever think about what will happen to you when you die?

 

To Sonyas comment.

 

Having been pronounced dead(for over 2 hours..to a point where my body actually started to stiffen -was in a bad car accident)...I was being carted off to the morgue when my shallow breathing was heard, I for one can say from personal experience; you know, see, hear and acknowledge nothing. (Yes, before you say anything, many people claim the good/bad "experiences" however, I personally was not dosed up on Ketamine or any other "like" anesthetic/painkiller at the time like near all reported cases ARE..) I didn't even know I HAD been dead until I was told just after a month later after I was brought out of a MI coma. That in itself was a mind-warp, but I will not elaborate here.

 

Anyhoo,

 

 

Having quite obviously lived past that experience which made me realise full well my own mortality, I have PLANNED now for when I, like we all will eventually, cark it "for good", so YES I know what will happen when I die. There will be one humongous party and I will live on in so many ways to those I love and/or have either "touched"(emotionally, whether good or bad) in some way and I will also continue to live on in SOME WAY differently as well as I intend to be cremated and there is a certain waterway in Aust. I want my ashes scattered, and will ultimately too become fishfood, therefore still "living on" and contributing to the cycle of life in taht regard as well, regardless of your bible "promised through salvation" afterlife BS.

 

It really doesn't get much simpler than that.

[.god]

But actually, I have a question for you then, how does your family celebrate Christmas?

 

The biggest part of our Christmas celebration revolves around the "Living Christmas Tree" production. The whole family is involved and it takes up the first couple weeks of Dec. We also get together with some good friends and throw a big party every year - food, fun, games. We try to scale down on the gift buying but we don't always succeed We spend time with family that we don't normally see and we eat too much. We attend a Christmas Eve service at church We remind each other that we are celebrating His birth.

 

Well, I dare say then that you do not celebrate Christmas much different from the vast majority of us - religious or not. While you may go to a church service w/ family, the rest of us may have a dinner party or see a movie with friends/family. The rest is the same, food, fun, socializing with family and friends. You may remind yourselves that you are celebrating the life of a mythical figure, we celebrate that each one of our family is still alive and well.

 

Your kids are young yet and so you will do things together as a family. But one day you will have to let them grow up, become adults and start figuring things out for themselves. One day you may disagree with their decisions or their lifestyle and yet let them go because they no longer live under your protective wing. And one day, even their beliefs may even change. Perhaps they become more fundamentalist or perhaps they shed religion altogether.

 

The question will be, how will you treat them in that hypothetical case? Will you respect their freedom to hold different beliefs from you? Or will you ostracize them, constantly express your disappointment and refuse to speak to them? And around Christmas time, will Christmas still be celebrating family and the fact that you are all still alive, or will you cut ties with the children who do not believe as you do and use Christmas only to attempt to threaten/coerce their beliefs back in line with yours? Will you respect them for their decision, recognize that they have thoughts and emotions that are as valid as yours regardless of how different they may be?

 

If you've done any reading on this site, from testimonials to ex-c life and rants, you will see that perhaps the odds are not in favor of respect, much less any form of "love" most humans would recognize. Unless you mean the type of love where someone grabs their dog, sobbing "i love you! i love you! i'm so sorry, but i love you!" while beating the shit out him with a steel bat, and the last words the puppy hears would, "now look what you've made me do! "

 

 

The problem with all many religions is that we're all one big happy family until one of you turns out to be different.

 

The sad thing about the belief in the afterlife is that it is a cheap-ass excuse for apathy and avoiding responsibility. Why bother exerting too much effort into patching relations if you believe you will see them in an afterlife?

 

And what about afterlife?

What sort of afterlife or heaven do you envision? They say "eternity" is a looong time.. what will you do there?

Will there be books? Can you still improve your mind? Or will you be perfect and know all? Can you imaging how damn boring that would be if there isn't any room for improvement, or learning? Will there be sex? Will there be pleasure? How will you have pleasure without pain? Will you live out eternity in the prime of your life? Or in the mental state at which you left this one? If you were schizophrenic or autistic, which has its causes deep within the functioning of your brain, will you lose those mental illnesses and thus lose what was a part of your identity? Perhaps you will be aimless balls of energy? Aimless indeed, what would be the point? What if I am a painter, will I finally paint the perfect painting? But then what will I do for the rest of eternity if I can no longer improve? Will I know all the secrets too the universe instantly? Eternity is a looong time for doing nothing.

Or perhaps as some have said, I will eternally be with god. And he will endow me with much pleasure, I wonder if it would be akin to masturbating constantly, over and over for eternity. Will I be like a passed out drug addict, flying high and mindless, forever and ever and ever.

 

Ashes to ashes as they say..

 

I think about death all the time, we all do. That's what it means to human, to be mortal, to be a creature upon this earth.

Death is the one thing we all know will be inevitable and is the one thing we have the least control over.

 

I could die tomorrow on the way to work, and never post again. No one here would know or care. I would fade into internet obscurity.

If I die, I die. It could be painful, it could be quick, and there's not a damn thing I'll be able to do about it, except to prepare for its inevitability.

Did I put my assets in trust, will my family be okay without me, will I make the least burden on my family in terms of post-mortem expenses. Have I tried to be the best person I know how to be, helped out those in need, be compassionate and caring with my fellow human beings, actively patched relationships, corrected misunderstandings, striven to set goals and accomplish them, fed my brain in every aspect of knowledge, and generally helped in leaving this planet a little better off than when I first entered it.

 

 

But that's not worrying about death. That's life! That's what life is about, and whether you think you will die today or next decade, it shouldn't change.

 

 

Really, Sonya, why do you find a need to believe in life after death?

What is it you fear that you cannot accomplish, or cannot experience or cannot attain in this life that you may have in the afterlife?

And if you can attain it in this life, then what's the point of life after death?

Or is the fear of separation from your loved ones so great that you really really cannot bear the thought of death.

[.god]

We remind each other that we are celebrating His birth.

 

Why do you have to remind each other? I would think that would be first and foremost in your minds and that you would never forget it.

One would think so, but being human, occasionally materialistic and definitely worldly, it is always important to remind ourselves that we choose to celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ and not “the time of year I get awesome stuffâ€. Others may not have that problem, and it isn’t as if I would forget entirely, but I can definitely find myself caught up in hunting down the latest version of guitar hero for my son and forgetting something more meaningful.

 

 

I don't think most grown mature adults go around thinking christmas is "the time of year I get awesome stuff" =)

Is spending a lot of your time and effort hunting down the latest version of guitar hero because it will make your son very happy any different than, a son who spends much of his time and effort hand making a photo frame for his mom ? Unless the intention is to "spend as much money on my son's gift to impress him", how is your effort not an expression of your love and sacrifice for him?

Your son may be too young to understand while he eagerly rips the package open, but how is helping your offspring about your own sacrifice and effort and less meaningful than telling him that some poor sap supposedly died thousands of years ago to atone for your son's wet dreams or the like? Yeah, lets heap that guilt right on!

[Grandpa Harley]

There is one recorded NDE of a 7 year old drowing (not in ice water) where the child entered 'the light' and was met by Raphael, who told him it wasn't his time and to go back... This was not the archangel, but the Teenage Ninja Mutant Turtle... says a lot about NDEs to me...

[I Broke Free]

And what about afterlife?

What sort of afterlife or heaven do you envision? They say "eternity" is a looong time.. what will you do there?

Will there be books? Can you still improve your mind? Or will you be perfect and know all? Can you imaging how damn boring that would be if there isn't any room for improvement, or learning? Will there be sex? Will there be pleasure? How will you have pleasure without pain? Will you live out eternity in the prime of your life? Or in the mental state at which you left this one? If you were schizophrenic or autistic, which has its causes deep within the functioning of your brain, will you lose those mental illnesses and thus lose what was a part of your identity? Perhaps you will be aimless balls of energy? Aimless indeed, what would be the point? What if I am a painter, will I finally paint the perfect painting? But then what will I do for the rest of eternity if I can no longer improve? Will I know all the secrets too the universe instantly? Eternity is a looong time for doing nothing.

Or perhaps as some have said, I will eternally be with god. And he will endow me with much pleasure, I wonder if it would be akin to masturbating constantly, over and over for eternity. Will I be like a passed out drug addict, flying high and mindless, forever and ever and ever.

 

That was perfect .god. I have often thought about heaven in the same way you have, thank you for expressing it so well.

 

There is one other thing that bugs me about the Christian concept of heaven and eternity. Christians often comment that if we do not have an afterlife then our life on Earth is meaningless. I just don’t get that at all. If this life is all I get then it is far from meaningless, it is EVERYTHING. However if you are going to live an infinite amount of time after your life on Earth, then the amount of time you spend in this life is INFINITLY SMALL in comparison. In fact it would be meaningless in comparison.

 

IBF

[Grandpa Harley]

to head off the free will argument, asuming Ricky the Radio Red-Neck hasn't banished our insurance pedlar to the kitchen...

 

This is one of the best analogies of 'gift and free will' I've seen...

 

"A loving father is standing on the tree lawn, crying, pleading and begging his child to come out of the street before the oncoming semi crushes him or her. The child ignores the loving warnings of the loving father. The father could easily reach out and rescue the child, but wants to preserve the child's free will so does nothing. The child is hit by the semi, thrown 100 feet into the yard, where his or her bruised and broken body lies in a mangled heap. The loving father picks up the ruined child, and roughly hauls the fruit of his body into the basement, where he revives the child to life and tortures the child inhumanly for having spurned the lovingly given advice about playing in the street. " (Once again, an uncredited stolen quote. Thanks to the OP.)

Props to the Unknown Author, who ever he is...

[The-Captain]

to head off the free will argument, asuming Ricky the Radio Red-Neck hasn't banished our insurance pedlar to the kitchen...

 

This is one of the best analogies of 'gift and free will' I've seen...

 

"A loving father is standing on the tree lawn, crying, pleading and begging his child to come out of the street before the oncoming semi crushes him or her. The child ignores the loving warnings of the loving father. The father could easily reach out and rescue the child, but wants to preserve the child's free will so does nothing. The child is hit by the semi, thrown 100 feet into the yard, where his or her bruised and broken body lies in a mangled heap. The loving father picks up the ruined child, and roughly hauls the fruit of his body into the basement, where he revives the child to life and tortures the child inhumanly for having spurned the lovingly given advice about playing in the street. " (Once again, an uncredited stolen quote. Thanks to the OP.)

Props to the Unknown Author, who ever he is...

 

Add to that how the father spent weeks making the semi, placing his child in the street he made, and then hired one of his disgruntled workers to drive the truck.....

 

edit: and if we really want to carry this one out further we could say that the father had a test tube baby with a genetic defect making him deaf and drawn to pavement.

[Grandpa Harley]

Not sure you're actually adding to the Bauhaus simplicity of the image...

[The-Captain]

After looking up Bauhaus on wikipedia......

 

Yeah I know its better as it is. What I said was sort of a response to what I figure would be the xian response of "its not like that", or "its more complicated than that".

 

You might say I was arguing with imaginary fundies in my head.......

[Grandpa Harley]

I didn't mean the band that the lead singer advertised Maxel tapes

[Grandpa Harley]

What I said was sort of a response to what I figure would be the xian response of "its not like that", or "its more complicated than that".

 

The response to that is, 'You're talking nonsense... " but then, if the fundie is typing or their lips are moving, they're spouting nonsense...

 

nobody has yet explained to my satisfaction why I should respect them...

[Neon Genesis]

I know that a lot of what you say is true. To those of us who believe in God, the search continues to separate the Word of God from the Bible by separating out what man has added through their own cuture through language and mythology so we gain the truth He wants us to embrace without trying to literalize the outer wrappings that those truths arrive in through their human delivery system.

If God was really all-powerful and if he really answers people's prayers, why didn't God answer people's prayers who are seeking the truth and use his divine powers to prevent the scriptures from being corrupted by man? Was God too weak to stop us sinful humans from corrupting his scriptures, thus meaning God isn't all-powerful after all, or was God not all-loving enough to care if people sought out the truth?

[Neon Genesis]

I came here by accident once..and I find you fascinating…not you in particular but “you†as a group…I have no illusions of “converting†you…when I came here, the first time, I responded to a post and was quickly put in my place….when I came ‘back’ to ask the question about Christmas it was something about which I was honestly curious and thought “aha….I know who can help me…the people on the “Ex-Christian.Comâ€â€¦

But I thought God was supposed to answer people's prayers and was supposed to be all-knowing. So, if God answers people's prayers and is all-knowing and if you just came here to ask a question you needed an answer to that you couldn't get elsewhere, why didn't you just have faith in God and pray for an answer to your question instead of bugging us about it? Does God not really answer prayers after all or are you admitting that because you couldn't get your answer from praying to God and had to come here to find it, that ex-Christians know more than God?

[Jillian]

Having been pronounced dead(for over 2 hours..to a point where my body actually started to stiffen -was in a bad car accident)...I was being carted off to the morgue when my shallow breathing was heard, I for one can say from personal experience; you know, see, hear and acknowledge nothing.

 

That is really interesting.

 

My dad had a "near death" when he was going into anaphylactic shock. At the hospital he passed out and said that he went to a big white room and aliens were working on him. I don't know though that he was "dead" so his mind was still working. I think he was actually experiencing what I experience when I pass out/faint- a kind of hallucination, dream like thing. It has never had anything to do with an afterlife.

 

Hi Madame M,

 

I would be happy to elaborate on it elsewhere on the forums if you like as the topic of DNE is of significant interest for me. Perhaps I may starta a thread in "off topic", or perhaps rants & replies, rather than continuing the inadvertant "hijacking" of this thread my moi! (apologies all)

 

J.

[GraphicsGuy]

Jillian, a good hijacking is what this thread needed...but, I guess it is in the Colosseum...

[Astreja]

What is it you fear that you cannot accomplish, or cannot experience or cannot attain in this life that you may have in the afterlife?

And if you can attain it in this life, then what's the point of life after death?

Brilliant. Absolutely right on the money.

 

There is no intrinsic value to life after death, which is merely an artificial, wishful-thinking extension of life. Deferring happiness and meaningfulness to "later" is a darn good way to experience neither of them.

[sonyaj68]

He didn't HAVE to die, He chose to die as the supreme sacrifice for your sin and for my sin

Um, yeah, that's what I meant. He chose to die, okay, I'm sure he did. But, and I'm paraphrasing your words here, he HAD to die as the supreme sacrifice for our sins. The questions, there are 2, are 1. Why was his choice to die as the supreme sacrifice necessary for your sin and my sin? And 2. What did his suffering and death do to solve the problem?

You are a sinner. Your sin separates you from God. God loves you, even though your sin condemns you While we were still sinners, Christ lived on the world, never sinned, and allowed Himself to die on the cross so he could be the ultimate sacrifice. He took your place so that if you accept his free gift of salvation you will not be responsible for those sins. I will pray that the Holy Spirit helps you find the truth before it is too late;

 

You ask what antagonises me. There you go.

 

Who gave you the right to go around calling folks names, Christian? I'd suggest you moderate your language.

 

As to the sacrifice... who was the sacrifice to? And you've still not explained quite how a pretty poor showing on a cross (4 hours) atoned for anything for all time...

 

And to explain the contention between 3:16 and 3:18 of john

 

Imagine I gave you a gift because I 'love' you... roses... Ena Harkness ones since I like pink... you don't like pink so you decline, so I then cut you up so bad your mother won't recognise you since you declined the gift, and every time the wounds start healing or you've started having re-constructive surgery to avoid people vomiting at the sight of you, I turn up and cut you up some more...

That was between Dhampir and me and I won't answer you on that Although if you, Grandpa, don't consider yourself a sinner, I'd like to hear about that.

 

Your "analogy" doesn't work for me. Who is giving the roses and who is cutting me up??

 

I look at it as more of me standing in a courtroom, I walked in there guilty, and everyone knows I'm guilty, the trial is just a formality. The judge (God) is perfect and just so has no choice but to sentence me to hell. But then, then Son which was a part of him - just as perfect and just, steps to the other side the bench where I am and says he'll take my punishment.

[The-Captain]

Your "analogy" doesn't work for me. Who is giving the roses and who is cutting me up??

 

I look at it as more of me standing in a courtroom, I walked in there guilty, and everyone knows I'm guilty, the trial is just a formality. The judge (God) is perfect and just so has no choice but to sentence me to hell. But then, then Son which was a part of him - just as perfect and just, steps to the other side the bench where I am and says he'll take my punishment.

 

Oh if I had a dime for every time this stupid analogy has to be beaten down.....

[sonyaj68]

I came here by accident once..and I find you fascinating…not you in particular but “you†as a group…I have no illusions of “converting†you…when I came here, the first time, I responded to a post and was quickly put in my place….when I came ‘back’ to ask the question about Christmas it was something about which I was honestly curious and thought “aha….I know who can help me…the people on the “Ex-Christian.Comâ€â€¦

But I thought God was supposed to answer people's prayers and was supposed to be all-knowing. So, if God answers people's prayers and is all-knowing and if you just came here to ask a question you needed an answer to that you couldn't get elsewhere, why didn't you just have faith in God and pray for an answer to your question instead of bugging us about it? Does God not really answer prayers after all or are you admitting that because you couldn't get your answer from praying to God and had to come here to find it, that ex-Christians know more than God?

This really doesn't deserve a response, but I'm nice and so I'll try. I was curious about something and I asked you to satisfy my curiosity. Sure, I could have prayed and asked God but frankly I don't think he cares...that's not worded correctly, but essentially, my sociology experiment is not furthering His will and is just my own morbid curiosity. His answer to me is "don't waste any more time on that website, Sonya."

[The-Captain]

Your "analogy" doesn't work for me. Who is giving the roses and who is cutting me up??

 

I look at it as more of me standing in a courtroom, I walked in there guilty, and everyone knows I'm guilty, the trial is just a formality. The judge (God) is perfect and just so has no choice but to sentence me to hell. But then, then Son which was a part of him - just as perfect and just, steps to the other side the bench where I am and says he'll take my punishment.

 

Oh if I had a dime for every time this stupid analogy has to be beaten down.....

 

You're right about one thing though, such a trial would be a mere formality, or more accurately a complete sham, a mock trial. Considering your almighty creator endowed you with this sin/guilt and instituted this inane cosmic substitution balancing act in the first place....And this god has "no choice" but to "sentence" you to hell for using your reason (that you claim came from him). Sigh...but its all ok because you believe in his earthly incarnation/follow his laws blindly (which one is it the bible cant seem to come to a consensus) he changes his mind about all that sin or cant see it and lets you live in some sort of bliss forever while all the people that were mean to you on Ex-C roast forever. His planned killing of himself somehow nulls the rules he made up before?

 

Please you seem like a decent enough person. Use your reason, apply it to your religion for once, read the entire bible for yourself, just think for once that you could be wrong.

[white_raven23]

And she still never responded to my post. Third general reminder, 2nd reminder of mine specifically from this thread. But considering the non-thought answers she gave to others, she may as well not even bother with mine at this point.

 

 

And why is this thread still in the Coliseum? It deserved to be hauled off to the Lion's Den a while ago. Are the Mods hibernating?

[The-Captain]

NO, I don't like you because you feel you can call people names, make judgements about their lives etc. with impugnity because we don't believe in your god. You get het up pretty quickly when the complement is returned.

 

You are a bigot. You feel naturally superior to anyone who doesn't see the innate homespun wisdom of your filthy death cult.

 

As to intelligence. I was 'blessed' with an intellect and the will to use it to the best of my ability. you chose to let yours get stifled in nasty stories that confuse fear with love and suppression for blessed submission.

 

 

If you don't like your own medicine being handed back, then take it elsewhere... we've broken free of your type of ignorance... some of us earlier than others...

 

Exactly, Sonya like I said before just seriously consider that you might be wrong. I know your faith doesnt allow for much of that, but couldnt your god handle it. Whatever insults have been directed your way are not entirely against you, so much as the cult that teaches and justifies your behavior. You seem to think that you are above the reproach of us apostates because of your acceptance of dogma.

 

Consider your position, consider the insults you hand out, maybe they seem ok because you have the truth_tm and that justifies everything to you. But without that divine mandate of yours what are you doing except insulting people on online forums, what do you expect for us to just meekly take that?

[Dhampir]

I'm going to post this again, just in case it was missed.

 

Ah. I see progress here where others might not see any. Your wording allows me to work forward.

 

Okay, first, why did Jesus have to die? If Jesus could choose to do so, why couldn't god have simply chosen to lift the restriction? Why did there need to be a substitution? What is an all-powerful god so bound by that he absolutely required a blood atonement?

 

Second, what did this substitution do that allows us to get into heaven, or rather, not be held responsible for our sins?

 

If I understand correctly, God cannot abide by even the merest sin, and every sin, no matter how great in severity we may judge it to be, is equal in god's eyes. Furthermore, even the greatest, most benevolent of our works is as nothing to God. I've been hearing the term "menstrual rags" lately, gonna have to look that one up. From what I understand, there was a time when certain christians believed that being saved meant you became sinless, but overwhelmingly, people know that just isn't true.

 

That all being said, being saved doesn't stop you from sinning, and God cannot abide by sin, that is, he cannot bear it in his presence. We, and by we I mean you, cuz' you're saved and all, are STILL sinners, so the sacrifice did nothing for that. But, somehow being saved allows you to work past that, although realistically, nothing has changed. Sooooo, What was the point? WHY couldn't God simply forgive in the first place, without any such sacrifice (it's veracity as an actual sacrifice being another issue), and WHAT did that sacrifice do, if anything?

[Grandpa Harley]

And she still never responded to my post. Third general reminder, 2nd reminder of mine specifically from this thread. But considering the non-thought answers she gave to others, she may as well not even bother with mine at this point.

 

 

And why is this thread still in the Coliseum? It deserved to be hauled off to the Lion's Den a while ago. Are the Mods hibernating?

 

Sorry Raven... the neighbourhood took a turn for the worse when I rolled up...

[sonyaj68]

And she still never responded to my post. Third general reminder, 2nd reminder of mine specifically from this thread. But considering the non-thought answers she gave to others, she may as well not even bother with mine at this point.

 

 

And why is this thread still in the Coliseum? It deserved to be hauled off to the Lion's Den a while ago. Are the Mods hibernating?

For what it is worth, I did answer your question today over in the "occupation" thread in the lion's den. SorryI missed it over here.