Christmas

[sonyaj68]

I do have an answer but so do you - you've just rejected it; It is been made fairly clear to me thar you all are not interested in my explanatiohns, so I assumed (and still do) that your questioh was rhetorical

 

No, you're just a bible quoting moron who seems to think she has something to say us, but is finding that, really, we know the scriptures and origins thereof better than she. ATM, I still want to know why you are here...

I came here by accident once..and I find you fascinating…not you in particular but “you†as a group…I have no illusions of “converting†you…when I came here, the first time, I responded to a post and was quickly put in my place….when I came ‘back’ to ask the question about Christmas it was something about which I was honestly curious and thought “aha….I know who can help me…the people on the “Ex-Christian.Comâ€â€¦I wasn’t trying to make fun of anyone or trip anyone up or whatever…granted, had I thought about it and not been so narrow-minded I could have answered my own question…I hope that answers your question. And I’m dying to get over to the thread about why you think insurance agents are evil but I was chastised that I baled on this thread and couldn’t really participate in that one until I answered the questions everyone had for me over here. Sigh.

[sonyaj68]

We remind each other that we are celebrating His birth.

 

Why do you have to remind each other? I would think that would be first and foremost in your minds and that you would never forget it.

One would think so, but being human, occasionally materialistic and definitely worldly, it is always important to remind ourselves that we choose to celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ and not “the time of year I get awesome stuffâ€. Others may not have that problem, and it isn’t as if I would forget entirely, but I can definitely find myself caught up in hunting down the latest version of guitar hero for my son and forgetting something more meaningful.

[sonyaj68]

I do agree with you. I think my point was the bigger issue in my world is racism. That is a real problem that I'm faced with every single day. I believe I can say with sincerity that I am not a racist, but that I have tolerated racist attitudes, words, actions, etc. etc. and have made a strong stand against it in my home and in my world. I believe that the cause of racism - ignorance, hate, etc. - is the problem, and the symptoms will go away when the cause goes away. I agree that it is as wrong to hate someone because they are...say...a communist, or a muslim, or for any other reason...that is just as wrong as hating someone because they are of another race than me. What I was getting at is that those are not things I deal with on a daily basis. But I do agree with you whole-heartedly and feel that it is up to all of us to start now, first with ourselves and then with our children and with our scope of influence, and then through things bigger than ourselves, to CHANGE. If I ever think that I have it all figure out then I am certainly ignorant and there is no chance for growth and certainly a dim prospect for future generations.

 

Again you say some very hopeful things in this post, whilst at the same time you are coming out with some quite trite answers to other questions.

 

How someone behaves towards another is a good indication of how they view them. You recognise that it is 'wrong' to hate someone for being a communist or a muslim ... and yet you are worshipping a god who does just that. Can you not see that ignorance and hate is promoted by fundamentalist christianity ? You rightly recognise that if someone thinks they have it all figured out then they are certainly ignorant and there is no chance for growth and yet fundamentalism claims just that - to have the 'answer', to be the 'truth' and it promotes the idea of a future where all those who do not tick the right boxes for religious belief, irrespective of how loving, sincere or compassionate they are - will burn in hell for all eternity.

 

You seem to be thinking more about somethings you had previously taken as givens and this is a good thing - maybe you need to widen your scope a little?

Ignorance and hate are promoted by many people, including unfortunately many who claim to be Christians. However, you and I will never agree on the point you are trying to make – that God is not the way, the truth. He is good and His way is right. I do not pretend to have it all figured out, but I do have faith in God and that will not change. To you that may seem ridiculous and you obviously have your very legitimate reasons for feeling the way you do and I respect you for that. I know that scripture quotation is not appreciated here, but there is a scripture that says two people cannot walk together unless they are agreed and I think that’s that.

[Grandpa Harley]

I do have an answer but so do you - you've just rejected it; It is been made fairly clear to me thar you all are not interested in my explanatiohns, so I assumed (and still do) that your questioh was rhetorical

 

No, you're just a bible quoting moron who seems to think she has something to say us, but is finding that, really, we know the scriptures and origins thereof better than she. ATM, I still want to know why you are here...

I came here by accident once..and I find you fascinating…not you in particular but “you†as a group…I have no illusions of “converting†you…when I came here, the first time, I responded to a post and was quickly put in my place….when I came ‘back’ to ask the question about Christmas it was something about which I was honestly curious and thought “aha….I know who can help me…the people on the “Ex-Christian.Comâ€â€¦I wasn’t trying to make fun of anyone or trip anyone up or whatever…granted, had I thought about it and not been so narrow-minded I could have answered my own question…I hope that answers your question. And I’m dying to get over to the thread about why you think insurance agents are evil but I was chastised that I baled on this thread and couldn’t really participate in that one until I answered the questions everyone had for me over here. Sigh.

 

TBH, I'm not much interested in why you think the insurance industry is not 'evil'... I worked for the man, and found that it even taxed my moral flexibility...

 

For future, google is your friend. If you have to rely on apostates, heretics and unbelievers to tell you the history of your own religion you're in trouble and you know it.

 

You're not quite as insane as Kratos, but running a close second. BTW, this isn't an ant farm. If any of us had posted our opinions, or asked the equivalent of your question on a Christian board, we'd be banned by now as 'trouble makers'. Do not mistake tolerance as acceptance. For scum like me, you're just target practice.

 

You've still not reconciled 3:16 with 3:18...

[Grandpa Harley]

"I know that scripture quotation is not appreciated here, but there is a scripture that says two people cannot walk together unless they are agreed and I think that’s that."

 

Then GO, you bony assed nutcase.

[Alice]

Ignorance and hate are promoted by many people, including unfortunately many who claim to be Christians. However, you and I will never agree on the point you are trying to make – that God is not the way, the truth. He is good and His way is right. I do not pretend to have it all figured out, but I do have faith in God and that will not change. To you that may seem ridiculous and you obviously have your very legitimate reasons for feeling the way you do and I respect you for that. I know that scripture quotation is not appreciated here, but there is a scripture that says two people cannot walk together unless they are agreed and I think that’s that.

 

That there are ways that are good and that some people call this God is not ridiculous to me. The devil is in the detail Sonya It depends on what you think is a 'priority' for agreement with those you 'walk' with. For me I will walk with anyone I meet on my journey, whatever words they use to describe their walk so far.

 

I think it would be shame to only walk with those who share all one's beliefs and word them in the same language.

[sonyaj68]

I do have an answer but so do you - you've just rejected it; It is been made fairly clear to me thar you all are not interested in my explanatiohns, so I assumed (and still do) that your questioh was rhetorical

 

No, you're just a bible quoting moron who seems to think she has something to say us, but is finding that, really, we know the scriptures and origins thereof better than she. ATM, I still want to know why you are here...

I came here by accident once..and I find you fascinating…not you in particular but “you†as a group…I have no illusions of “converting†you…when I came here, the first time, I responded to a post and was quickly put in my place….when I came ‘back’ to ask the question about Christmas it was something about which I was honestly curious and thought “aha….I know who can help me…the people on the “Ex-Christian.Comâ€â€¦I wasn’t trying to make fun of anyone or trip anyone up or whatever…granted, had I thought about it and not been so narrow-minded I could have answered my own question…I hope that answers your question. And I’m dying to get over to the thread about why you think insurance agents are evil but I was chastised that I baled on this thread and couldn’t really participate in that one until I answered the questions everyone had for me over here. Sigh.

 

TBH, I'm not much interested in why you think the insurance industry is not 'evil'... I worked for the man, and found that it even taxed my moral flexibility...

 

For future, google is your friend. If you have to rely on apostates, heretics and unbelievers to tell you the history of your own religion you're in trouble and you know it.

 

You're not quite as insane as Kratos, but running a close second. BTW, this isn't an ant farm. If any of us had posted our opinions, or asked the equivalent of your question on a Christian board, we'd be banned by now as 'trouble makers'. Do not mistake tolerance as acceptance. For scum like me, you're just target practice.

 

You've still not reconciled 3:16 with 3:18...

 

I wasn't peaking into the ant farm for the history of my own religion but for the reason people "do" the things they "do". As acknowledged, it was a narrow minded question and in retrospect I should have thought before I asked, but I'm glad people gave me honest answers and helped me gain insight.

 

I don't know why you are so angry, but maybe things will get better for you. I am not trying to antagonize you. And how did you know my butt is boney?

 

I do not see a controversy or conflict with John 3:16-John 3:18 so no reconciliation is necessary for me.

[Jillian]

I swore to myself that I’d never come back to this website again. I went so far as to ask my husband to help me by watching and if he saw me going to this website to remind me to stay away.

 

If "tempted" why didn't you just tighten the straps on your bible harness?

 

 

 

The reason I wanted to not come back is because I was (still am) so grieved for you and felt helpless.

 

Greived for US because the monkey is no longer on our backs? lmao Christians are funny!

 

 

 

 

Here are my questions, all to nom-believers/self-professed exChristians - atheists - etc

 

1. Do you celebrate Christmas with your family?

 

No,

 

3 If you answered no, how do you handle things in your community, your children’s schools, co-workiers exchanging gits, Christmas cards, parties, etc. And, do your kids feel left out?

 

We "handle" things the same way any other "non-believing in jesus" groups do- and heads up.... the MAJORITY of the worllds population does not buy into the xian (stolen from paganism} bunk anyway and, even though its origins were stolen from paganism, the xmas "celebrations" as depicted in modernday, especially westernised society, are more about the "almighty" $ than your "almighty" invisible friend.

 

Unfortunately, here in australia, much like any protestant/catholic colonised country, xmas day is a FORCED public holiday. There is no option but to have the day off (so to speak) however my family and myself "work" regardless. Instead of stuffing our faces until near bursting point, we put together free lunches for the homeless people and those down on their luck in a local park in our area. It seems with all the jesus celebrations going on, the churches tend to close their doors to those in need, on what SHOULD (one would expect) actually be the ONE DAY the church's doors should be open to one and all!(BTW, that was something I noticed after leaving xianity...peole in need quite literally "cut off" not only at xmas but also easter) ...fo figure! The people tend to enjoy it though. A decent meal without a sermon attached for a change!

 

Question for you, perhaps. How do you handle Ramadan,Tsagaan sar,Tanabata,Kwanzaa, Channakah.....etc just to name a few?? Do you simply IGNORE them and just go about your day? I hazard a guess you are probably even ignorant to the majority I mentioned anyway, let alone working out in your mind how to "handle" them.

 

 

 

*My husbanhd does the morning show on the locale radio station and he was doing “Santa Trekking†using a website that showed he was at the Great Wall of China (I was on the show with him, do that sometimes when I'm off work which I was today) Rick said, “I didn’t know Santa stopped in commie countries I proceeded to remind about the “secret†missionaries who olive there as well as the few Americans who live there ‘’

 

Commie countries?? *shaking head* Charming! A xian bigot?? who'd have thought!!!

 

 

PS. I do have to say that when I was reading through your questions and comments, a song from South Park, sung by MR Garrison was going over and over again.. just incase you don't know the words, here it is for you!

 

Mr. Garrison: I heard there is no Christmas

In the silly Middle East

No trees, no snow, no Santa Claus

They have different religious beliefs

 

They believe in Muhammad

And not in our holiday

And so every December

I go to the Middle East and say...

 

"Hey there Mr. Muslim

Merry fucking Christmas

Put down that book the Koran

And hear some holiday wishes.

 

In case you haven't noticed

It's Jesus's birthday.

So get off your heathen Muslim ass

and fucking celebrate.

 

There is no holiday season in India I've heard

They don't hang up their stockings

And that is just absurd!

 

They've never read a Christmas story.

They don't know what Rudolph is about

And that is why in December

I'll go to India and shout...

 

Hey there Mr. Hinduist

Merry fucking Christmas

Drink eggnog and eat some beef

And pass it to the missus.

 

In case you haven't noticed

It's Jesus's birthday

So get off your heathen Hindu ass

and fucking celebrate!

 

Now I heard that in Japan

Everyone just lives in sin

They pray to several gods

And put needles in their skin.

 

On December 25th

All they do is eat a cake

And that is why I go to Japan

And walk around and say...

 

Hey there Mr. Shintoist

Merry fucking Christmas

God is going to kick your ass

You infidelic pagan scum.

 

In case you haven't noticed

There's festive things to do

So lets all rejoice for Jesus

And Merry fucking Christmas to you.

 

On Christmas day I travel `round the world and say,

Taoists, Krishnas, Buddhists, and all you atheists too,

Merry Fucking Christmas, To You!

 

(Clapping)

 

Thank you Mr. hat

 

 

----------------------------------------

 

It just seemed so fitting, considering from what I read from your comments; questioning why people don't conform to your belief system.

 

 

[Dhampir]

QUOTE (sonyaj68 @ Jan 12 2008, 11:56 PM) *

I do have an answer but so do you - you've just rejected it; It is been made fairly clear to me thar you all are not interested in my explanatiohns, so I assumed (and still do) that your questioh was rhetorical

It is not true at all that we aren't interested in your explanations. The problem is that while indeed we have the same biblical explanation you have, it raises more questions, namely those that Madam M brought up. THOSE are the answers we need. What did Jesus fleshly undoing DO to cause any changes in the way god went about doing things with us? Why did Jesus have to suffer and bleed and die in order for us to sneak past god on the way to heaven?

 

"For god (excuse me) God so loved the world, that he sent his only begotten sun son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

 

You have either never asked the preceding question, or you've just always taken on faith that it works. And here's what I think is the problem: when we thought about that passage, among many others, I mean REALLY thought about it, it made no sense. Absolutely none. And the reality is, it doesn't make a single lick more sense to you than it does to us; you can't possibly explain it, because no logic exists in it. You, like at least 50% of all christians, simply accept that it does. The same is true for many other portions of the bible.

 

Unless you can explain that, if you could clarify for us how John 3:16 (among other passages) makes sense, without resorting to the faith alone statements or anything that doesn't directly answer the question, then nothing else you say will be of much value.

 

Of course, I think we would all be very appreciative, if you were honest enough to say " I don't know"

[The-Captain]

I know Ive come rather late to this topic but here goes anyway.

 

Yeah I still celebrate christmas, I know everyone else has talked about the pagan roots and all so I wont go into that. With holidays that have a xian background, it helps to think of them like weekends. Weekends were originally rooted in the whole keeping the sabbath holy thing (right?) but plenty of people use them for what they are now, time off work. Same with any holiday we all get off, time to spend with those you love. I still indulge in some of the old traditions, I go to christmas eve service with the family (still xian) sing a few carols, and I dont see fit to quibble over using "non-religous" decoration. Thats all it is to me a nice holiday with some traditions thrown in for good measure, and I have a hunch that alot of people think of it that way they just dont feel the need to raise hell over "whose holiday it is".

[Jillian]

My family and I like to start out Christmas day by urinating on 4 or 5 churches. Even grandma gets in on it.

Then, we head over to the orphanage with empty boxes that have been wrapped(you should see their faces when they open them!).

After that, we take our pet dog, Lucifer, to the pound. Not to leave him there, but to show the other dogs what freedom looks like.

Then we drop by our local AA and drop off a case of beer.

We go home, eat a big meal, and then open all of the 'Toys for Tots' presents we stole from drop-boxes in the area.

/Sarcasm

 

What the hell do you think we do on Christmas?!

 

 

ROFLMFAO

 

Did you steal all the money from the collection plates, prior to urinating on the churches too? If not, where did you get the beer money?

[Jillian]

He loves you so much that He sent His son so die for you

 

You should realize by now what kind of a reception that statement is going to get on this site. The guilt trip just doesn't work anymore, don't you realize that?

 

Even assuming Christ really existed, and in fact he was crucified, he died for himself alone. Even if he "died for me" I didn't ask him to.

 

My statement was in response to someone who was spewing hate at God - taken in context that was the only response I can give - and I won't apologize for it.

 

 

I have no delusions that your god or jesus for that matter actually exist, however, I am willing to play your "god love" game for example purposes only here.

 

As being a parent myself, and for a long time only had ONE child(going with the "only begotten thang here".. there is NO WAY I would put my child up as an INTENTIONAL (or otherwise...going on YOUR "sent his son TO die for you reference ) human sacrifice in an attempt to be accepted by others, or for ANY reason for that matter! Your god just by that paraphrased biblical reference is an insecure, co-dependant twat who through bible history, has spat out more tantrums and hissy fits than the average "terrible two's" toddler in a shopping mall! When he didn't get his way...WAH WAH WAH!! What a friggin sooky-la la!

 

I have to thank you at this point Sonya, because you have actually made me realise even more WHY I decided to leave xianity and god belief!

 

Perhaps you DO have a purpopse after all!

[sonyaj68]

I swore to myself that I’d never come back to this website again. I went so far as to ask my husband to help me by watching and if he saw me going to this website to remind me to stay away.

 

If "tempted" why didn't you just tighten the straps on your bible harness?

 

 

 

The reason I wanted to not come back is because I was (still am) so grieved for you and felt helpless.

 

Greived for US because the monkey is no longer on our backs? lmao Christians are funny!

 

 

 

 

Here are my questions, all to nom-believers/self-professed exChristians - atheists - etc

 

1. Do you celebrate Christmas with your family?

 

No,

 

3 If you answered no, how do you handle things in your community, your children’s schools, co-workiers exchanging gits, Christmas cards, parties, etc. And, do your kids feel left out?

 

We "handle" things the same way any other "non-believing in jesus" groups do- and heads up.... the MAJORITY of the worllds population does not buy into the xian (stolen from paganism} bunk anyway and, even though its origins were stolen from paganism, the xmas "celebrations" as depicted in modernday, especially westernised society, are more about the "almighty" $ than your "almighty" invisible friend.

 

Unfortunately, here in australia, much like any protestant/catholic colonised country, xmas day is a FORCED public holiday. There is no option but to have the day off (so to speak) however my family and myself "work" regardless. Instead of stuffing our faces until near bursting point, we put together free lunches for the homeless people and those down on their luck in a local park in our area. It seems with all the jesus celebrations going on, the churches tend to close their doors to those in need, on what SHOULD (one would expect) actually be the ONE DAY the church's doors should be open to one and all!(BTW, that was something I noticed after leaving xianity...peole in need quite literally "cut off" not only at xmas but also easter) ...fo figure! The people tend to enjoy it though. A decent meal without a sermon attached for a change!

 

Question for you, perhaps. How do you handle Ramadan,Tsagaan sar,Tanabata,Kwanzaa, Channakah.....etc just to name a few?? Do you simply IGNORE them and just go about your day? I hazard a guess you are probably even ignorant to the majority I mentioned anyway, let alone working out in your mind how to "handle" them.

 

 

 

*My husbanhd does the morning show on the locale radio station and he was doing “Santa Trekking†using a website that showed he was at the Great Wall of China (I was on the show with him, do that sometimes when I'm off work which I was today) Rick said, “I didn’t know Santa stopped in commie countries I proceeded to remind about the “secret†missionaries who olive there as well as the few Americans who live there ‘’

 

Commie countries?? *shaking head* Charming! A xian bigot?? who'd have thought!!!

 

 

PS. I do have to say that when I was reading through your questions and comments, a song from South Park, sung by MR Garrison was going over and over again.. just incase you don't know the words, here it is for you!

 

Mr. Garrison: I heard there is no Christmas

In the silly Middle East

No trees, no snow, no Santa Claus

They have different religious beliefs

 

They believe in Muhammad

And not in our holiday

And so every December

I go to the Middle East and say...

 

"Hey there Mr. Muslim

Merry fucking Christmas

Put down that book the Koran

And hear some holiday wishes.

 

In case you haven't noticed

It's Jesus's birthday.

So get off your heathen Muslim ass

and fucking celebrate.

 

There is no holiday season in India I've heard

They don't hang up their stockings

And that is just absurd!

 

They've never read a Christmas story.

They don't know what Rudolph is about

And that is why in December

I'll go to India and shout...

 

Hey there Mr. Hinduist

Merry fucking Christmas

Drink eggnog and eat some beef

And pass it to the missus.

 

In case you haven't noticed

It's Jesus's birthday

So get off your heathen Hindu ass

and fucking celebrate!

 

Now I heard that in Japan

Everyone just lives in sin

They pray to several gods

And put needles in their skin.

 

On December 25th

All they do is eat a cake

And that is why I go to Japan

And walk around and say...

 

Hey there Mr. Shintoist

Merry fucking Christmas

God is going to kick your ass

You infidelic pagan scum.

 

In case you haven't noticed

There's festive things to do

So lets all rejoice for Jesus

And Merry fucking Christmas to you.

 

On Christmas day I travel `round the world and say,

Taoists, Krishnas, Buddhists, and all you atheists too,

Merry Fucking Christmas, To You!

 

(Clapping)

 

Thank you Mr. hat

 

 

----------------------------------------

 

It just seemed so fitting, considering from what I read from your comments; questioning why people don't conform to your belief system.

 

 

That poem was pretty dang funny. I've acknowledged above that I didn't think before I posted so I won't dig up those bones

[sonyaj68]

QUOTE (sonyaj68 @ Jan 12 2008, 11:56 PM) *

I do have an answer but so do you - you've just rejected it; It is been made fairly clear to me thar you all are not interested in my explanatiohns, so I assumed (and still do) that your questioh was rhetorical

It is not true at all that we aren't interested in your explanations. The problem is that while indeed we have the same biblical explanation you have, it raises more questions, namely those that Madam M brought up. THOSE are the answers we need. What did Jesus fleshly undoing DO to cause any changes in the way god went about doing things with us? Why did Jesus have to suffer and bleed and die in order for us to sneak past god on the way to heaven?

 

"For god (excuse me) God so loved the world, that he sent his only begotten sun son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

 

You have either never asked the preceding question, or you've just always taken on faith that it works. And here's what I think is the problem: when we thought about that passage, among many others, I mean REALLY thought about it, it made no sense. Absolutely none. And the reality is, it doesn't make a single lick more sense to you than it does to us; you can't possibly explain it, because no logic exists in it. You, like at least 50% of all christians, simply accept that it does. The same is true for many other portions of the bible.

 

Unless you can explain that, if you could clarify for us how John 3:16 (among other passages) makes sense, without resorting to the faith alone statements or anything that doesn't directly answer the question, then nothing else you say will be of much value.

 

Of course, I think we would all be very appreciative, if you were honest enough to say " I don't know"

 

He didn't HAVE to die, He chose to die as the supreme sacrifice for your sin and for my sin. It makes perfece sense to me. All people are sinners. We are condemned already. Jesus took our place. We can accept his free gift of salvation or not. Maybe I'm not following your question but it seems very simple.

[Astreja]

Sonya, bearing in mind that this is the Colosseum and not the Lion's Den I'm going to say this as politely as I can.

 

I reject your god-concept and the alleged sacrifice of god-as-its-own-son because I reject the idea of substitutionary atonement.

 

To me it is dreadful, mind-warping, immoral nonsense.

 

I reject this 'gift' as I find it completely abhorrent.

[Dhampir]

He didn't HAVE to die, He chose to die as the supreme sacrifice for your sin and for my sin

Um, yeah, that's what I meant. He chose to die, okay, I'm sure he did. But, and I'm paraphrasing your words here, he HAD to die as the supreme sacrifice for our sins. The questions, there are 2, are 1. Why was his choice to die as the supreme sacrifice necessary for your sin and my sin? And 2. What did his suffering and death do to solve the problem?

[sonyaj68]

He didn't HAVE to die, He chose to die as the supreme sacrifice for your sin and for my sin

Um, yeah, that's what I meant. He chose to die, okay, I'm sure he did. But, and I'm paraphrasing your words here, he HAD to die as the supreme sacrifice for our sins. The questions, there are 2, are 1. Why was his choice to die as the supreme sacrifice necessary for your sin and my sin? And 2. What did his suffering and death do to solve the problem?

You are a sinner. Your sin separates you from God. God loves you, even though your sin condemns you While we were still sinners, Christ lived on the world, never sinned, and allowed Himself to die on the cross so he could be the ultimate sacrifice. He took your place so that if you accept his free gift of salvation you will not be responsible for those sins. I will pray that the Holy Spirit helps you find the truth before it is too late;

[sonyaj68]

Sonya, bearing in mind that this is the Colosseum and not the Lion's Den I'm going to say this as politely as I can.

 

I reject your god-concept and the alleged sacrifice of god-as-its-own-son because I reject the idea of substitutionary atonement.

 

To me it is dreadful, mind-warping, immoral nonsense.

 

I reject this 'gift' as I find it completely abhorrent.

 

Do you ever think about what will happen to you when you die?

[Astreja]

(sighs heavily) As far as I know, Sonya, I will simply cease to exist as "Me" and the molecules that make up my body will go on to new careers elsewhere in the universe.

 

If you're going to trot out Pascal's Wager and attempt to intimidate us with threats of some mythical eternal punishment, please read my Ex-timony before you go any further down that particular road. Thanks.

[Dhampir]

Ah. I see progress here where others might not see any. Your wording allows me to work forward.

 

Okay, first, why did Jesus have to die? If Jesus could choose to do so, why couldn't god have simply chosen to lift the restriction? Why did there need to be a substitution? What is an all-powerful god so bound by that he absolutely required a blood atonement?

 

Second, what did this substitution do that allows us to get into heaven, or rather, not be held responsible for our sins?

 

If I understand correctly, God cannot abide by even the merest sin, and every sin, no matter how great in severity we may judge it to be, is equal in god's eyes. Furthermore, even the greatest, most benevolent of our works is as nothing to God. I've been hearing the term "menstrual rags" lately, gonna have to look that one up. From what I understand, there was a time when certain christians believed that being saved meant you became sinless, but overwhelmingly, people know that just isn't true.

 

That all being said, being saved doesn't stop you from sinning, and God cannot abide by sin, that is, he cannot bear it in his presence. We, and by we I mean you, cuz' you're saved and all, are STILL sinners, so the sacrifice did nothing for that. But, somehow being saved allows you to work past that, although realistically, nothing has changed. Sooooo, What was the point? WHY couldn't God simply forgive in the first place, without any such sacrifice (it's veracity as an actual sacrifice being another issue), and WHAT did that sacrifice do, if anything?

[Kuroikaze]

You are a sinner. Your sin separates you from God. God loves you, even though your sin condemns you While we were still sinners, Christ lived on the world, never sinned, and allowed Himself to die on the cross so he could be the ultimate sacrifice. He took your place so that if you accept his free gift of salvation you will not be responsible for those sins. I will pray that the Holy Spirit helps you find the truth before it is too late;

 

If you want to preach at us, then start a thread in the lions den. Just don't be surprised when the lions have you for lunch k?

 

As far as I'm concerned all of this makes about as much sense as alien abductions and Bigfoot sightings.

 

God created us the way we are and them blames us for the piss poor job he did?

 

I mean really, god sacrifices himself to...himself? Salvation is free, but yet I have to do something (namely accept it, while there is no good evidence to believe it is even true) to get it...doesn't sound free to me. Sounds like the cost of "salvation" is becoming a moron with no critical thinking skills.

 

I mean, what is "sin" anyway? If its something that's bad for me in the here and now then won't the results of my actions be enough of a punishment? so why the need for more punishment?

 

People have been talking to themselves (praying) for me for years and it hasn't done any good...but go ahead and knock yourself out, I don't really care that much.

[Kuroikaze]

Do you ever think about what will happen to you when you die?

 

Why would I waste my time thinking about something I cannot control, and don't know anything about? All ANYONE has in regards to the after life is pure conjecture.

You are no different than me, in that you have just as little clue about what will happen to you when you die as I do...you just like to pretend you know the answer because for some reason it gives you comfort. Perhaps you just obsess over morbid things, whatever the reason, I have better things to do with my time.

[Unknowing1]

Sonya your own bible promotes ignorance and hate. People read it and then take what they read and act upon it as they deem fit. If the words of the bible are so warped that people misapply those words and if God is real why hasn't he stepped in and stopped it? Most people that I know who misspeak or their words are misinterpreted are very quick to explain what they actually meant. That isn't the case with your God. Nor with most Christian churches. From my understanding many churches have spoken out against amending the 1986 Public Order Act to create a new offense of incitement to hatred on grounds of sexual orientation. Same holds true with the Hate Crimes Prevention Act. But why be scared if they are not promoting ignorance and hate? They aren't really complaining that their freedom of speech is being curtailed, they are mainly complaining that their teachings could be considered as hateful under the Acts.

 

As for death, yes Sonya I thought about what would happen to me when I died for several years on a day in and day out basis. I used to process life insurance claims. Because I took the report of death, processed the claim and handled absolute assignments I had the pleasure to speak with people who had just had a loved one go to that better place and those folks that were going to that better place within 6 months (absolute assignments). Not one person who I spoke with was jumping up and down with joy about their loved one being in that better place nor about going to that better place. The toughest claims for me were the sweet babies and children that died, in some cases, very horrible deaths. Yeah if your god was so loving he'd allow people to die peaceful deaths but I can guarantee that doesn't happen very often. More often than not there is some real suffering going on before the end.

 

EDIT: Forgot to say the 1986 Public Order act I believe is in the UK. The Hate Crimes Prevention Act is in the US.

[Grandpa Harley]

He didn't HAVE to die, He chose to die as the supreme sacrifice for your sin and for my sin

Um, yeah, that's what I meant. He chose to die, okay, I'm sure he did. But, and I'm paraphrasing your words here, he HAD to die as the supreme sacrifice for our sins. The questions, there are 2, are 1. Why was his choice to die as the supreme sacrifice necessary for your sin and my sin? And 2. What did his suffering and death do to solve the problem?

You are a sinner. Your sin separates you from God. God loves you, even though your sin condemns you While we were still sinners, Christ lived on the world, never sinned, and allowed Himself to die on the cross so he could be the ultimate sacrifice. He took your place so that if you accept his free gift of salvation you will not be responsible for those sins. I will pray that the Holy Spirit helps you find the truth before it is too late;

 

You ask what antagonises me. There you go.

 

Who gave you the right to go around calling folks names, Christian? I'd suggest you moderate your language.

 

As to the sacrifice... who was the sacrifice to? And you've still not explained quite how a pretty poor showing on a cross (4 hours) atoned for anything for all time...

 

And to explain the contention between 3:16 and 3:18 of john

 

Imagine I gave you a gift because I 'love' you... roses... Ena Harkness ones since I like pink... you don't like pink so you decline, so I then cut you up so bad your mother won't recognise you since you declined the gift, and every time the wounds start healing or you've started having re-constructive surgery to avoid people vomiting at the sight of you, I turn up and cut you up some more...

[Grandpa Harley]

Sonya, bearing in mind that this is the Colosseum and not the Lion's Den I'm going to say this as politely as I can.

 

I reject your god-concept and the alleged sacrifice of god-as-its-own-son because I reject the idea of substitutionary atonement.

 

To me it is dreadful, mind-warping, immoral nonsense.

 

I reject this 'gift' as I find it completely abhorrent.

 

Do you ever think about what will happen to you when you die?

 

And there you go with Pascal's Wager... This is why you antagonise people... you come out withthe same trite nonsense we've ALL HEARD BEFORE like it's a gem.

 

But you just keep right on digging...

 

 

The stupid... it burns!