Christmas

[sonyaj68]

NO, I don't like you because you feel you can call people names, make judgements about their lives etc. with impugnity because we don't believe in your god. You get het up pretty quickly when the complement is returned.

 

You are a bigot. You feel naturally superior to anyone who doesn't see the innate homespun wisdom of your filthy death cult.

 

As to intelligence. I was 'blessed' with an intellect and the will to use it to the best of my ability. you chose to let yours get stifled in nasty stories that confuse fear with love and suppression for blessed submission.

 

 

If you don't like your own medicine being handed back, then take it elsewhere... we've broken free of your type of ignorance... some of us earlier than others...

 

Exactly, Sonya like I said before just seriously consider that you might be wrong. I know your faith doesnt allow for much of that, but couldnt your god handle it. Whatever insults have been directed your way are not entirely against you, so much as the cult that teaches and justifies your behavior. You seem to think that you are above the reproach of us apostates because of your acceptance of dogma.

 

Consider your position, consider the insults you hand out, maybe they seem ok because you have the truth_tm and that justifies everything to you. But without that divine mandate of yours what are you doing except insulting people on online forums, what do you expect for us to just meekly take that?

My comment was directed toward Gramps who hurls insults my way and I honestly don't believe I've been insulting.

 

As far as 'me' being wrong - that's always possible. But I can't and won't believe that God is wrong. Otherwise, what point is there to having faith in Him? Everyone has to work that out for themself.

[Grandpa Harley]

You have called me terrible names for no reason. I have only brought up my faith in God in response to specific questions when I felt it was the proper response. You only have one reason not to like me and that's because I'm not like you. Hello, pot, it is the kettle calling...and it is black. (And stop calling me a bigot, that's absurd.)

 

Arrant, lying nonsense... If my criterion for disliking people was 'different' then my life would be a lot poorer... but then, I can hang out with people who have different gender choices, lifestyle choices or religions and not judge them... you came in judging us, motley crew we are, and basically, you have been judged. Suck it up, you moron. and as to Absurdity... A grown woman, mother of children, with an imaginary friend is an absurdity...

 

Calling people like Dhampir a sinner is bigotry. you know nothing of him... you judged him by the standard of him not being your vile cult. Take it an shove it. We don't subscribe to your mental derangement, so HOW DARE YOU JUDGE US BY IT? Logs and splinters...

 

So, cordially, why the hell should we play nice with you?

 

We know your faith better than you, and have found it empty and evil... now, you can take crazy and peddle it somewhere else (after all GAWD told you) or you can read and learn without throwing out empty bible tracts and avoiding questions like the verminous guts of three day dead road kill squirms...

 

Final Hint: We know the bible better than you. We know how it was arrived at better than you. We know the history of first century Judea / Palestine better than you. We know the history of the Roman Empire and the impact of Greek philosophy better than you.

 

Thus, other than tired old bigoted bullcrap we've all heard before, not even well sold, what do you bring to the party? At the moment a waste of Webmaster Dave's bandwidth.

[sonyaj68]

I'm going to post this again, just in case it was missed.

 

Ah. I see progress here where others might not see any. Your wording allows me to work forward.

 

Okay, first, why did Jesus have to die? If Jesus could choose to do so, why couldn't god have simply chosen to lift the restriction? Why did there need to be a substitution? What is an all-powerful god so bound by that he absolutely required a blood atonement?

 

Second, what did this substitution do that allows us to get into heaven, or rather, not be held responsible for our sins?

 

If I understand correctly, God cannot abide by even the merest sin, and every sin, no matter how great in severity we may judge it to be, is equal in god's eyes. Furthermore, even the greatest, most benevolent of our works is as nothing to God. I've been hearing the term "menstrual rags" lately, gonna have to look that one up. From what I understand, there was a time when certain christians believed that being saved meant you became sinless, but overwhelmingly, people know that just isn't true.

 

That all being said, being saved doesn't stop you from sinning, and God cannot abide by sin, that is, he cannot bear it in his presence. We, and by we I mean you, cuz' you're saved and all, are STILL sinners, so the sacrifice did nothing for that. But, somehow being saved allows you to work past that, although realistically, nothing has changed. Sooooo, What was the point? WHY couldn't God simply forgive in the first place, without any such sacrifice (it's veracity as an actual sacrifice being another issue), and WHAT did that sacrifice do, if anything?

 

This was God's plan. I can't explain why. I just have the faith that it is. You do not believe that it is, I get it.

[.god]

This was God's plan. I can't explain why. I just have the faith that it is.

 

Hey Sonya,

 

I think we're getting to that last bastion that most christians who visit this site inevitably resort to, to paraphrase, "I don't know or understand why, but that's just the way I believe it is"

 

To me the analogy is like thus:

 

You are like a mime standing on a busy street. You push your hands around and find yourself in a box, it's invisible but it's there. But it is a comfortable box, large enough to stand up and sit down in and most of the time you never even notice it's there. But sometimes you look outside the box and you see the other people moving around you, some in their own boxes, others seem to be constantly tinkering with and creating new boxes.

 

We are standing outside your "box", gesturing for you to come and try the fresh air, but we don't understand why you can't (although you tell us, I don't understand why this "box" is here or how it works, but it just is). Some of us don't see your box, we see you moving around bumping into the sides and can infer that you are trapped in some sort of box. Some of us know the box all too well, having been in there most of our lives and have examined every nook and cranny. In fact, they may still be pouring over here-to undiscovered facets of their former "box".

 

All the while you're telling us it's a great box, it's the box you've always known, and why not come and join the party. We think it's just a tad cramped though. We tell you the box isn't there, but you tell us that you believe it is.

 

But the more you look, the more you see other boxes. Did you know they have boxes in China too? Seems like your husband couldn't see the Chinese boxes from his box.

 

"What about your boxes" you ask? Well, I think our boxes are a bit different, as we constantly pore over every nook and cranny. If we find a part of our box to be rotten, we toss it out and look around until we find a sound replacement. Is ours more like a box, or an array of platforms? Like puzzle pieces, some may fit together, some may not, but it is ever changing. You wonder, how is it that some here seem to have discarded a box similar to your? Perhaps it was never truly their box to begin with! Well, that's because it wasn't. The box was found wanting and did not serve its purpose, and they can replaced for better ones.

 

The thing is, although we may have our own boxes, they have very thin sides that can be taken down via scrutiny and evidence. They may even be temporary placeholders - It's rather like comparison shopping with many disparate sources of evidence and research as a guide.

 

Did you know, even the bottom of the box your box can be replaced? As long as you're not afraid to scrutinize it.

 

 

I don't mean make any offense or seem condescending or anything like that, I am only offering you my perception of how things might be viewed from my side of the "box" if you will

 

That said, I am very curious how you see the relationship of you, the rest of us and boxes from your pt of view.

 

I think the part that frustrates most members of this site is when you arrive at the point in which you have hit the edge of your "box" and resort to repeating how 'there it is, and that's how it is" when they telling you " no, no no, please take a look at our discarded box and compare."

 

Seriously, have you checked your box for a false bottom yet?

The only danger out here is that Grandpa is always trying to shoot those in the boxes

[.god]

I'm still curious, exactly what do you envision heaven as being? or for that matter hell, if you subscribe to such things.

 

Is there a draw for heaven at all? Or is your belief in heaven more tied to your fear of death and what it entails.

 

 

Stories of hell are to trite though.. the fire,burning, the itching? Sounds like a bad case of STD's to me. It all revolves around physical pain, which after an eternity of it, would you stop feeling it? Or would it get boring? There's a short science fiction story about a man who is sentenced to die over and over again until he admits to a crime he did not commit. They clone his brain at the moment of his death so he remembers them all. Well, after dying repeatedly in new novel ways he completely loses his fear or death or pain. Experiencing death of his physical body just becomes another familiar sensation as a part of his existence, and he no longer attaches any significance or emotion to it.

 

So would it be so with a hell? Torture and damnation they threaten! for eternity!

How would they keep the torture and pain fresh and endless? Would they wipe your mind of any part experience so that it is always new and fresh as if it the torture is happening for the first time ? Where would "eternity" be then?

 

What would have to removed so that you can experience "suffering" for "eternity"? And in that case would the damned still be themselves? And if you are no longer in essence, "you" then what is the point of hell at all?

 

To me a much better hell would be one in which not physical pain was emphasized, but emotional pain. Rejection, shunning, humiliation, a repeat of your greatest failures and disappointments. There's no need to deal with the body, only the mind in hell.

I think virtual scenarios of your loved ones being tortured, killed, abused would be much more painful than to me than any physical pain.

 

We as humans are empathetic creatures. Like an elephant that becomes distressed when it's handlers are in pain, we humans are much more tortured by fellow creatures/humans suffering than ourselves.

 

Imagine if hell was watching your children raped, tortured, and killed - and you are a helpless to stop it no matter how hard you try. If it involved watching your parents reacting to their children tortured. If it was watching your grandparents decay in old age into senility and you were once again helpless to end their suffering. If it involved you being the crap out of your significant other, but you can't help yourself, and you hate yourself for it. If it involved loathing your own body, your own mind, and you are helpless to end it.. for eternity.

 

... oh wait.. it sounds a bit like I'm describing the part before you go to hell..

 

aw hell, give me some burning and gnashing any day!

[Grandpa Harley]

I pointed out once that the worst job in Hell would be being a devil... after a while, the people in there would just ignore you and be chatting among themselves...

[Hineni]

Late to the conversation, but having read the bible twice, studying it for 12 years these verses in the OT really bothered me:

 

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

 

 

Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

 

 

Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not

 

Sounded lots like a xmas tree, so for 3 years (prior to deconversion) we didn't have a tree or celebrate xmas at all.

 

But, I'm better now.

[The-Captain]

NO, I don't like you because you feel you can call people names, make judgements about their lives etc. with impugnity because we don't believe in your god. You get het up pretty quickly when the complement is returned.

 

You are a bigot. You feel naturally superior to anyone who doesn't see the innate homespun wisdom of your filthy death cult.

 

As to intelligence. I was 'blessed' with an intellect and the will to use it to the best of my ability. you chose to let yours get stifled in nasty stories that confuse fear with love and suppression for blessed submission.

 

 

If you don't like your own medicine being handed back, then take it elsewhere... we've broken free of your type of ignorance... some of us earlier than others...

 

Exactly, Sonya like I said before just seriously consider that you might be wrong. I know your faith doesnt allow for much of that, but couldnt your god handle it. Whatever insults have been directed your way are not entirely against you, so much as the cult that teaches and justifies your behavior. You seem to think that you are above the reproach of us apostates because of your acceptance of dogma.

 

Consider your position, consider the insults you hand out, maybe they seem ok because you have the truth_tm and that justifies everything to you. But without that divine mandate of yours what are you doing except insulting people on online forums, what do you expect for us to just meekly take that?

My comment was directed toward Gramps who hurls insults my way and I honestly don't believe I've been insulting.

 

As far as 'me' being wrong - that's always possible. But I can't and won't believe that God is wrong. Otherwise, what point is there to having faith in Him? Everyone has to work that out for themself.

 

Fair enough,faith of that kind can hardly be argued with. But remember, this being ex-c, we were all that point once to but found that faith to be little more than an excuse for not questioning too much. My point was that xians are allowed to use reason and critical thinking with all other aspects of life, they would be fools otherwise. But this one part, unwavering belief in a second hand revelation (a rumour really) is to be exempt from that? Or at least those with "true" faith need not question, and who doesnt want to be one of the most faithful? Doubting Thomas is hardly held up as an example, blessed are those who believe w/o seeing and all that. Doesnt this strike you as suspicious? Scripture is ok with you examing the claims and history of all other religion and revelation but directs against doing the same for it.

 

Anyway like you said everyone has to work that out for themselves, so Im probably wasting my time if you are happier as you are.

[Alice]

Although if you, Grandpa, don't consider yourself a sinner, I'd like to hear about that.

 

Sonya I'm not Gramps but I'm not a sinner either - not in the way you appear to understand the word anyway ... would you be interested in hearing from me on this?

 

 

 

His answer to me is "don't waste any more time on that website, Sonya."

 

Wow - you worship a God who thinks talking to other people is a 'waste of time'. I would find that really sucked.

 

 

I’m so sorry that you are so angry and that you don’t like me because I’m different than you. It is a good thing that you don’t call people names or make assumptions about them. I’m so very glad that I’m not as smart as you think you are

 

Sonya, Sonya, Sonya - can you not see the assumptions your religion makes and the way in which those who don't agree are seen as worthless and deserving of everlasting punishment for thinking differently?

 

 

 

As far as 'me' being wrong - that's always possible. But I can't and won't believe that God is wrong. Otherwise, what point is there to having faith in Him? Everyone has to work that out for themself.

 

It's never about 'God' being wrong ... it's always about you ... or me ... or whoever is holding the opinion about 'God'.

[Grandpa Harley]

Alice... have I mentioned lately I adore you?

[Alice]

...That'll do nicely!

[sojourner]

I have to say I just read over .god's posts and Alices posts and wow.

 

I feel as if Im slowly taking back my mind, like it was hidden away from me and I was so blind to the fact it was missing lol

 

Sojourner

[Grandpa Harley]

Sometimes trying to punch it in between someone's eyes just doesn't work.

[Jillian]

He didn't HAVE to die, He chose to die as the supreme sacrifice for your sin and for my sin

Um, yeah, that's what I meant. He chose to die, okay, I'm sure he did. But, and I'm paraphrasing your words here, he HAD to die as the supreme sacrifice for our sins. The questions, there are 2, are 1. Why was his choice to die as the supreme sacrifice necessary for your sin and my sin? And 2. What did his suffering and death do to solve the problem?

You are a sinner. Your sin separates you from God. God loves you, even though your sin condemns you While we were still sinners, Christ lived on the world, never sinned, and allowed Himself to die on the cross so he could be the ultimate sacrifice. He took your place so that if you accept his free gift of salvation you will not be responsible for those sins. I will pray that the Holy Spirit helps you find the truth before it is too late;

 

You ask what antagonises me. There you go.

 

Who gave you the right to go around calling folks names, Christian? I'd suggest you moderate your language.

 

As to the sacrifice... who was the sacrifice to? And you've still not explained quite how a pretty poor showing on a cross (4 hours) atoned for anything for all time...

 

And to explain the contention between 3:16 and 3:18 of john

 

Imagine I gave you a gift because I 'love' you... roses... Ena Harkness ones since I like pink... you don't like pink so you decline, so I then cut you up so bad your mother won't recognise you since you declined the gift, and every time the wounds start healing or you've started having re-constructive surgery to avoid people vomiting at the sight of you, I turn up and cut you up some more...

That was between Dhampir and me and I won't answer you on that Although if you, Grandpa, don't consider yourself a sinner, I'd like to hear about that.

 

Your "analogy" doesn't work for me. Who is giving the roses and who is cutting me up??

 

I look at it as more of me standing in a courtroom, I walked in there guilty, and everyone knows I'm guilty, the trial is just a formality. The judge (God) is perfect and just so has no choice but to sentence me to hell. But then, then Son which was a part of him - just as perfect and just, steps to the other side the bench where I am and says he'll take my punishment.

 

Umm.... Sonya... your courthouse analogy speaks volumes. Not only about you but also shows that your "god" is not perfect as you have claimed on this thread.

 

How is your god showing his "perfection" when you claim that YOU know you are guilty, he KNOWS you are guilty, everyone else in the room KNOWS you are guilty, but both he and you allow 'someone" (in this case, his own son) who you BOTH KNOW had zip to do with your crime, take the rap for you? How is that good, perfect or fair on your gods part? And as for you, it seems you are ok with passing the buck and negating responsibility for your own actions but how is that a decent and good thing for you to do?

 

If you have children and you know one of them has done something and you are dishing out punishment (hopefully not banishing them to hell, but as you are a xian and all... I would not be surprised).. and then another one of your kids walks in and says, "hey mum, I will take their punishment for them" would you be OK with that? If the answer is yes, then I see nothing perfect, decent or good about your parenting, if anything it would show that you are at the very least psychologically abusing the BOTH of them. IF however your answer is no...that you would not allow the other child to take responsibility for the guilty ones actions, WHY wouldn't you...?

[Skiergirl24]

christmas is NOT a christian holiday. it's a throwback to pagan times. have you EVER read anything about Mithraism? christianity is a direct rip off of many pagan religions that were around before christ was even born. the "christmas story" is the same as the tale of mithras, complete with wise men, the gifts, the star, the stable, the virgin birth etc:

 

(1)Mithra was born on December 25th as an offspring of the Sun. Next to the gods Ormuzd and Ahrimanes, Mithra held the highest rank among the gods of ancient Persia. He was represented as a beautiful youth and a Mediator. Reverend J. W. Lake states: "Mithras is spiritual light contending with spiritual darkness, and through his labors the kingdom of darkness shall be lit with heaven's own light; the Eternal will receive all things back into his favor, the world will be redeemed to God. The impure are to be purified, and the evil made good, through the mediation of Mithras, the reconciler of Ormuzd and Ahriman. Mithras is the Good, his name is Love. In relation to the Eternal he is the source of grace, in relation to man he is the life-giver and mediator" (Plato, Philo, and Paul, p. 15).

 

 

(2) He was considered a great traveling teacher and masters. He had twelve companions as Jesus had twelve disciples. Mithras also performed miracles.

 

 

(3) Mithra was called "the good shepherd,†"the way, the truth and the light,†“redeemer,†“savior,†“Messiah." He was identified with both the lion and the lamb.

 

 

(4) The International Encyclopedia states: "Mithras seems to have owed his prominence to the belief that he was the source of life, and could also redeem the souls of the dead into the better world ... The ceremonies included a sort of baptism to remove sins, anointing, and a sacred meal of bread and water, while a consecrated wine, believed to possess wonderful power, played a prominent part."

 

 

(5) Chambers Encyclopedia says: "The most important of his many festivals was his birthday, celebrated on the 25th of December, the day subsequently fixed -- against all evidence -- as the birthday of Christ. The worship of Mithras early found its way into Rome, and the mysteries of Mithras, which fell in the spring equinox, were famous even among the many Roman festivals. The ceremonies observed in the initiation to these mysteries -- symbolical of the struggle between Ahriman and Ormuzd (the Good and the Evil) -- were of the most extraordinary and to a certain degree even dangerous character. Baptism and the partaking of a mystical liquid, consisting of flour and water, to be drunk with the utterance of sacred formulas, were among the inauguration acts."

 

 

(6) Prof. Franz Cumont, of the University of Ghent, writes as follows concerning the religion of Mithra and the religion of Christ: "The sectaries of the Persian god, like the Christians', purified themselves by baptism, received by a species of confirmation the power necessary to combat the spirit of evil; and expected from a Lord's supper salvation of body and soul. Like the latter, they also held Sunday sacred, and celebrated the birth of the Sun on the 25th of December.... They both preached a categorical system of ethics, regarded asceticism as meritorious and counted among their principal virtues abstinence and continence, renunciation and self-control. Their conceptions of the world and of the destiny of man were similar. They both admitted the existence of a Heaven inhabited by beatified ones, situated in the upper regions, and of a Hell, peopled by demons, situated in the bowels of the earth. They both placed a flood at the beginning of history; they both assigned as the source of their condition, a primitive revelation; they both, finally, believed in the immortality of the soul, in a last judgment, and in a resurrection of the dead, consequent upon a final conflagration of the universe" (The Mysteries of Mithras, pp. 190, 191).

 

 

(7) Reverend Charles Biggs stated: "The disciples of Mithra formed an organized church, with a developed hierarchy. They possessed the ideas of Mediation, Atonement, and a Savior, who is human and yet divine, and not only the idea, but a doctrine of the future life. They had a Eucharist, and a Baptism, and other curious analogies might be pointed out between their system and the church of Christ (The Christian Platonists, p. 240).

 

 

(8) In the catacombs at Rome was preserved a relic of the old Mithraic worship. It was a picture of the infant Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, while on their knees before him were Persian Magi adoring him and offering gifts.

 

 

(9) He was buried in a tomb and after three days he rose again. His resurrection was celebrated every year.

 

 

(10) McClintock and Strong wrote: "In modern times Christian writers have been induced to look favorably upon the assertion that some of our ecclesiastical usages (e.g., the institution of the Christmas festival) originated in the cultus of Mithraism. Some writers who refuse to accept the Christian religion as of supernatural origin, have even gone so far as to institute a close comparison with the founder of Christianity; and Dupuis and others, going even beyond this, have not hesitated to pronounce the Gospel simply a branch of Mithraism" (Art. "Mithra").

 

 

(11) Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected. His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day." The Mithra religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

 

 

(12) The Christian Father Manes, founder of the heretical sect known as Manicheans, believed that Christ and Mithra were one. His teaching, according to Mosheim, was as follows: "Christ is that glorious intelligence which the Persians called Mithras ... His residence is in the sun" (Ecclesiastical History, 3rd century, Part 2, ch. 5).

 

 

"I am a star which goes with thee and shines out of the depths." - Mithraic saying

 

"I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star." - Jesus, (Rev. 22:16)

 

WHAT a coincidence huh?????????????? Go figure!!!

[Jillian]

He didn't HAVE to die, He chose to die as the supreme sacrifice for your sin and for my sin

Um, yeah, that's what I meant. He chose to die, okay, I'm sure he did. But, and I'm paraphrasing your words here, he HAD to die as the supreme sacrifice for our sins. The questions, there are 2, are 1. Why was his choice to die as the supreme sacrifice necessary for your sin and my sin? And 2. What did his suffering and death do to solve the problem?

You are a sinner. Your sin separates you from God. God loves you, even though your sin condemns you While we were still sinners, Christ lived on the world, never sinned, and allowed Himself to die on the cross so he could be the ultimate sacrifice. He took your place so that if you accept his free gift of salvation you will not be responsible for those sins. I will pray that the Holy Spirit helps you find the truth before it is too late;

 

You ask what antagonises me. There you go.

 

Who gave you the right to go around calling folks names, Christian? I'd suggest you moderate your language.

 

As to the sacrifice... who was the sacrifice to? And you've still not explained quite how a pretty poor showing on a cross (4 hours) atoned for anything for all time...

 

And to explain the contention between 3:16 and 3:18 of john

 

Imagine I gave you a gift because I 'love' you... roses... Ena Harkness ones since I like pink... you don't like pink so you decline, so I then cut you up so bad your mother won't recognise you since you declined the gift, and every time the wounds start healing or you've started having re-constructive surgery to avoid people vomiting at the sight of you, I turn up and cut you up some more...

That was between Dhampir and me and I won't answer you on that Although if you, Grandpa, don't consider yourself a sinner, I'd like to hear about that.

 

Your "analogy" doesn't work for me. Who is giving the roses and who is cutting me up??

 

I look at it as more of me standing in a courtroom, I walked in there guilty, and everyone knows I'm guilty, the trial is just a formality. The judge (God) is perfect and just so has no choice but to sentence me to hell. But then, then Son which was a part of him - just as perfect and just, steps to the other side the bench where I am and says he'll take my punishment.

 

Umm.... Sonya... your courthouse analogy speaks volumes. Not only about you but also shows that your "god" is not perfect as you have claimed on this thread.

 

How is your god showing his "perfection" when you claim that YOU know you are guilty, he KNOWS you are guilty, everyone else in the room KNOWS you are guilty, but both he and you allow 'someone" (in this case, his own son) who you BOTH KNOW had zip to do with your crime, take the rap for you? How is that good, perfect or fair on your gods part? And as for you, it seems you are ok with passing the buck and negating responsibility for your own actions but how is that a decent and good thing for you to do?

 

If you have children and you know one of them has done something and you are dishing out punishment (hopefully not banishing them to hell, but as you are a xian and all... I would not be surprised).. and then another one of your kids walks in and says, "hey mum, I will take their punishment for them" would you be OK with that? If the answer is yes, then I see nothing perfect, decent or good about your parenting, if anything it would show that you are at the very least psychologically abusing the BOTH of them. IF however your answer is no...that you would not allow the other child to take responsibility for the guilty ones actions, WHY wouldn't you...?

 

Man Jillian, that's good.

 

Hang in there Sonya. God may be using Jillian to show us all something.

 

js

 

Hi JS,

 

I am not sure if your reply was a pisstake or not.... However, IF you are a parent though, which way would you personally go and WHY?

[justsomeone]

He didn't HAVE to die, He chose to die as the supreme sacrifice for your sin and for my sin

Um, yeah, that's what I meant. He chose to die, okay, I'm sure he did. But, and I'm paraphrasing your words here, he HAD to die as the supreme sacrifice for our sins. The questions, there are 2, are 1. Why was his choice to die as the supreme sacrifice necessary for your sin and my sin? And 2. What did his suffering and death do to solve the problem?

You are a sinner. Your sin separates you from God. God loves you, even though your sin condemns you While we were still sinners, Christ lived on the world, never sinned, and allowed Himself to die on the cross so he could be the ultimate sacrifice. He took your place so that if you accept his free gift of salvation you will not be responsible for those sins. I will pray that the Holy Spirit helps you find the truth before it is too late;

 

You ask what antagonises me. There you go.

 

Who gave you the right to go around calling folks names, Christian? I'd suggest you moderate your language.

 

As to the sacrifice... who was the sacrifice to? And you've still not explained quite how a pretty poor showing on a cross (4 hours) atoned for anything for all time...

 

And to explain the contention between 3:16 and 3:18 of john

 

Imagine I gave you a gift because I 'love' you... roses... Ena Harkness ones since I like pink... you don't like pink so you decline, so I then cut you up so bad your mother won't recognise you since you declined the gift, and every time the wounds start healing or you've started having re-constructive surgery to avoid people vomiting at the sight of you, I turn up and cut you up some more...

That was between Dhampir and me and I won't answer you on that Although if you, Grandpa, don't consider yourself a sinner, I'd like to hear about that.

 

Your "analogy" doesn't work for me. Who is giving the roses and who is cutting me up??

 

I look at it as more of me standing in a courtroom, I walked in there guilty, and everyone knows I'm guilty, the trial is just a formality. The judge (God) is perfect and just so has no choice but to sentence me to hell. But then, then Son which was a part of him - just as perfect and just, steps to the other side the bench where I am and says he'll take my punishment.

 

Umm.... Sonya... your courthouse analogy speaks volumes. Not only about you but also shows that your "god" is not perfect as you have claimed on this thread.

 

How is your god showing his "perfection" when you claim that YOU know you are guilty, he KNOWS you are guilty, everyone else in the room KNOWS you are guilty, but both he and you allow 'someone" (in this case, his own son) who you BOTH KNOW had zip to do with your crime, take the rap for you? How is that good, perfect or fair on your gods part? And as for you, it seems you are ok with passing the buck and negating responsibility for your own actions but how is that a decent and good thing for you to do?

 

If you have children and you know one of them has done something and you are dishing out punishment (hopefully not banishing them to hell, but as you are a xian and all... I would not be surprised).. and then another one of your kids walks in and says, "hey mum, I will take their punishment for them" would you be OK with that? If the answer is yes, then I see nothing perfect, decent or good about your parenting, if anything it would show that you are at the very least psychologically abusing the BOTH of them. IF however your answer is no...that you would not allow the other child to take responsibility for the guilty ones actions, WHY wouldn't you...?

 

Man Jillian, that's good.

 

Hang in there Sonya. God may be using Jillian to show us all something.

 

js

 

Hi JS,

 

I am not sure if your reply was a pisstake or not.... However, IF you are a parent though, which way would you personally go and WHY?

 

Jill, Gramps sees by more carnal side and cannot or will not see the better essence in me......yet. I will work on that as I can.

 

As to your question I will share something personal about me. I have 11 children, all mine, born of my wife one at a time. They are great kids of course and your example to Sonya rang so true to me. I use arguments like the one you gave, to christians and even non christians all the time.

 

To answer your question, there is nothing that my kids could do that would make me hate them or make me want to see them tortured in any way and I think anyone who believes in God and then believes this God would and could torture just to ease this God's ego or whatever, I think this is satanic thinking...........the serpent in the garden doing it's best work!

 

js

[justsomeone]

Jillian, sweetness heart...

 

He's a troll...

 

and JS

 

JUst go away and die... you're a waste of carbon...

 

Gramps, you're a hoot sometimes, you know that?

 

If there was not enough carbon to go around and your life was threatened then maybe I would consider going away and dying so you might take one or two more breaths but as there seems to be plenty of carbon around I don't think I'll take your advice yet.

 

I've read some of your writings and I have grown because of them I think so try not to give up on me completely. You are right in many ways. I am a conniving sob but I do see something of value in me too. I will do what it takes to live and survive but there are times that I want to give and share too. I'm not all selfish.........I hope!

 

js

[Grandpa Harley]

Carnal? It's far from 'carnal'...simple fleshly stuff is understandable, since we live inside machines of flesh. What you're doing is nothing at all 'carnal'... at the moment it mostly seems to be along the lines of 'I pull stuff out of my ass and make it up as I go along, but it's not bullshit since it's MY bullshit... I just feel the need to spread my version of crazy while claiming I'm not...'

 

Besically, you're irritating and arrogant, and have now started cheering on one of the other biggest PIAs on the board... I ask you, what the hell is to like?

[The-Captain]

Sigh, like I said if I had a dime for every time we've shot a hole in that ridiculous analogy.....

 

but will it really matter, about four of us have taken potshots at it only to get the " faith wouldnt be faith if I questioned it response". She likes her faith let her have it, reason has nothing to say to that.

[justsomeone]

Carnal? It's far from 'carnal'...simple fleshly stuff is understandable, since we live inside machines of flesh. What you're doing is nothing at all 'carnal'... at the moment it mostly seems to be along the lines of 'I pull stuff out of my ass and make it up as I go along, but it's not bullshit since it's MY bullshit... I just feel the need to spread my version of crazy while claiming I'm not...'

 

Besically, you're irritating and arrogant, and have now started cheering on one of the other biggest PIAs on the board... I ask you, what the hell is to like?

 

Gramps, could you be more specific?

 

Just kidding, you're making your point loud and clear.

 

I may not be pulling stuff out of my ass but I am pulling my thoughts and beliefs out of my being and exposing them to you and others. I do have an agenda and it is to rid said thoughts and beliefs of garbage and to add some live healthy growth. This seems to be the place to do this right now and your aversion to my being is actually a big help. Thanks and don't ever stop being you, it's refreshing and helpful me and probably to many.

 

js

[justsomeone]

Carnal? It's far from 'carnal'...simple fleshly stuff is understandable, since we live inside machines of flesh. What you're doing is nothing at all 'carnal'... at the moment it mostly seems to be along the lines of 'I pull stuff out of my ass and make it up as I go along, but it's not bullshit since it's MY bullshit... I just feel the need to spread my version of crazy while claiming I'm not...'

 

Besically, you're irritating and arrogant, and have now started cheering on one of the other biggest PIAs on the board... I ask you, what the hell is to like?

 

Gramps, could you be more specific?

 

Just kidding, you're making your point loud and clear.

 

I may not be pulling stuff out of my ass but I am pulling my thoughts and beliefs out of my being and exposing them to you and others. I do have an agenda and it is to rid said thoughts and beliefs of garbage and to add some live healthy growth. This seems to be the place to do this right now and your aversion to my being is actually a big help. Thanks and don't ever stop being you, it's refreshing and helpful me and probably to many.

 

js

 

Oh Gramps, you ask "What the hell is there to like?"

 

I'm really a funny guy once you get to know me. Look in the humor section. I had to reply in the lame joke area as I could not create a new topic but I'm there somewhere. Other than that....................hmmmmmm what is there to like? I like to tip a few every now and again. I like action movies but a few others have moved me in a positve way too. Kids drive me crazy but I seem to collect them. They kind of like me. My wife kind of likes me most of the time so I must have something you can find to like in me.

 

Give it a try.

 

js

[Jillian]

Justsomeone wrote:

Jill, Gramps sees by more carnal side and cannot or will not see the better essence in me......yet. I will work on that as I can.

 

As to your question I will share something personal about me. I have 11 children, all mine, born of my wife one at a time. They are great kids of course and your example to Sonya rang so true to me. I use arguments like the one you gave, to christians and even non christians all the time.

 

To answer your question, there is nothing that my kids could do that would make me hate them or make me want to see them tortured in any way and I think anyone who believes in God and then believes this God would and could torture just to ease this God's ego or whatever, I think this is satanic thinking...........the serpent in the garden doing it's best work!

 

js

 

 

Hi JS,

 

Again, you didn't answer the question posed.

[justsomeone]

Justsomeone wrote:

Jill, Gramps sees by more carnal side and cannot or will not see the better essence in me......yet. I will work on that as I can.

 

As to your question I will share something personal about me. I have 11 children, all mine, born of my wife one at a time. They are great kids of course and your example to Sonya rang so true to me. I use arguments like the one you gave, to christians and even non christians all the time.

 

To answer your question, there is nothing that my kids could do that would make me hate them or make me want to see them tortured in any way and I think anyone who believes in God and then believes this God would and could torture just to ease this God's ego or whatever, I think this is satanic thinking...........the serpent in the garden doing it's best work!

 

js

 

 

Hi JS,

 

Again, you didn't answer the question posed.

 

You know, I thought I missed something.

 

Is this the question you refer to?

 

If you have children and you know one of them has done something and you are dishing out punishment (hopefully not banishing them to hell, but as you are a xian and all... I would not be surprised).. and then another one of your kids walks in and says, "hey mum, I will take their punishment for them" would you be OK with that? If the answer is yes, then I see nothing perfect, decent or good about your parenting, if anything it would show that you are at the very least psychologically abusing the BOTH of them. IF however your answer is no...that you would not allow the other child to take responsibility for the guilty ones actions, WHY wouldn't you...?

 

I would not be ok with punishing another child in the place of another erring one. If you are referring to how some people view what Jesus did on the cross I agree with you. If what I read is correct, Jesus did not die on a cross to take my place, to me this typifies something nasty in me getting phased out while something good grows.

 

I would not allow another child to take the punishment for someone else because I think it would not change the erring child's condition.

 

Did this answer your question?

 

Sorry I missed this important point. I am not buttering you up, I like your train of thought here.

 

js

[Jillian]

Justsomeone wrote:

Jill, Gramps sees by more carnal side and cannot or will not see the better essence in me......yet. I will work on that as I can.

 

As to your question I will share something personal about me. I have 11 children, all mine, born of my wife one at a time. They are great kids of course and your example to Sonya rang so true to me. I use arguments like the one you gave, to christians and even non christians all the time.

 

To answer your question, there is nothing that my kids could do that would make me hate them or make me want to see them tortured in any way and I think anyone who believes in God and then believes this God would and could torture just to ease this God's ego or whatever, I think this is satanic thinking...........the serpent in the garden doing it's best work!

 

js

 

 

Hi JS,

 

Again, you didn't answer the question posed.

 

You know, I thought I missed something.

 

Is this the question you refer to?

 

If you have children and you know one of them has done something and you are dishing out punishment (hopefully not banishing them to hell, but as you are a xian and all... I would not be surprised).. and then another one of your kids walks in and says, "hey mum, I will take their punishment for them" would you be OK with that? If the answer is yes, then I see nothing perfect, decent or good about your parenting, if anything it would show that you are at the very least psychologically abusing the BOTH of them. IF however your answer is no...that you would not allow the other child to take responsibility for the guilty ones actions, WHY wouldn't you...?

 

I would not be ok with punishing another child in the place of another erring one. If you are referring to how some people view what Jesus did on the cross I agree with you. If what I read is correct, Jesus did not die on a cross to take my place, to me this typifies something nasty in me getting phased out while something good grows.

 

I would not allow another child to take the punishment for someone else because I think it would not change the erring child's condition.

 

Did this answer your question?

 

Sorry I missed this important point. I am not buttering you up, I like your train of thought here.

 

js

 

Hi JS,

 

yes, thank you you did answer the question finally at least in a sense, however isn't the whole "jesus died on the cross for your sins" THE crux of xianity? Is that not the reason xians "believe"? because of that....god sent his only begotten son...blah blah... as per his plan to allegedly fix his own post "flood and future and "mans"(also part of "his" plan, f*ups?

 

If you personally don't "believe" that from the bible, what IN the bible leads you to christianity?