1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 I am a Christian, and I think you unwise to shrug off Christianity as myth, or as fary tale, or as silly, etc... And I think it's unwise to shrug off our experience. Most of us here used to be Christians, and just to assume that we just shrugged of Christianity one afternoon because we ate some bad sushi or had too many beans at the local Taco place is a bit arrogant. My de-conversion didn't come out of me rolling the dice or getting the hick-ups. It came from a life long experience as a Christian and how it failed and how I lost my trust in its teachings, dogma, ideas, holy book and mostly a divine supernatural Master Santa Clause who had conflicting attributes. It is silly. It is a fairy tale. And it's only upheld by ignorance and arrogance and people insisting on not trying to view the world from a rational standpoint but from an emotional. With that being said. Welcome 1United, and usually I prefer more liberal Christians anyway, but do understand, most of our de-conversions did not come cheap or easy and were not caused by a little "oh, it's just a fairy tale" phrase. For some it was a long process. Just remember that. I will, Han...Thank you 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 It lives... I'm surprised it came back (I've not lifted its tail feather to see what it is...) TBH, I'd say we could answer more questions about Christianity, its insanity, its origins and how the bible was formed than most people who practice it... However, to allow the yawning chasm to swallow you or not... 1) 1 Tim 2 - Role women 2) Leviticus - Being gay... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 1) Hell is not a literal torture chamber for all eternity 2) Satan is not a literal being I dare say that most xtians would strongly disagree with you on this one. I sat through many a sermon on the "personal devil" and the literal suffering in hell. "You have to believe in a personal devil if you believe in a personal god..." Your post makes no argument for the actual existance of god. That's where the rubber meets the road. God is All in All as scripture states. Which is to say that God is everything that exists. You, me, the paint on the wall, the tree in your back yard, etc are all a tiny part of what God is. God is not just matter, He is also all spirit, and all mind. He consists of everything that exixts. [God is All existance] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 I am a Christian, and I think you unwise to shrug off Christianity as myth, or as fary tale, or as silly, etc... Well, as a few others have so eloquently said already, it was hardly "shrugged" off. However, I'll leave that where it lays at the moment. If you don't believe that hell nor the devil is literal then why would it be unwise to "shrug off" Xianity? Doesn't seem to be any demerits for doing so in that case. It doesn't mean we aren't "spiritual" (for lack of a better term). It doesn't mean we aren't still journeying and discovering life. We just do it without any "help" from some sort of misplaced faith. Hell exists on earth as suffering. Suffering stems from sin, which is a transgression of law God has put in place to govern. There one law to rule them all. LORD Of RINGS [Yes, I'm a fan] That law is Christ, whom is Spirit, which is Agape [Love] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Thus sin can't exist in the traditional sense,and you, "Gender not set", are as far from orthodox Christianity as any here... So which parts of 'scripture' are correct, which are false and why does the 1st Ecumenical council hold so much sway in the world view you espouse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Sorry, but the type of Christian I do come from is pretty strict - either you believe all, or nothing. It's impossible to really be a Christian and pick-and-choose your own bible for your own interpretations. Either you accept what has been handed to you, or you don't. That is complete non-sense - Do you think the early Christian fathers had all truth at their disposal, or that bible is ultimate truth? A Christian by definitian of term is a[ follower of Christ]. You, like many, many others have been conditioned by the "Wolves" to believe - think in accordance to how they want you to think. There is more to bible than meetes the eye, and there are scpripture not even included in bible that help complete puzzle. It is complete nonsense -- that is why we are EX-christians. Nevertheless, there are many people and many churches that do believe its all or nothing-- I come out of it also. Rhia was just stating a fact of her experience. We don't care about completing the puzzle. We think the whole puzzle is nonsense. Why should we accept your version of the nonsense, whatever it is? I have been here for over a year. I know what you are, and I know where you are coming from. I think it to be unwise to shut oneself off from a Christian viewpoint because of past experience with orthodoxy. You become upset because when I say this; that is pride, a product of ego- carnal mind - satan. So you know what we are --we have carnal minds and are of satan - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 It lives... I'm surprised it came back (I've not lifted its tail feather to see what it is...) Ummmmm. I just wanted to point out that you really can't always tell by lifting the tailfeather... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 1United, you're coming into a "Lion's Den" (literally and metaphorically) - I understand you want to help us but Christianity (the belief in general, and the people) caused so much hurt to a lot of people here that you shouldn't be surprised at "heated" responses. ... I want you to understand that for a lot of people here, including myself, leaving Christianity has been the most painful experience of our lives (despite life isn't generally bubbling with happiness). ... As I used to say as a Christian, but still say it sometimes: don't judge a person until you've walked at least 200 miles in his shoes - but then you're 200 miles away, and in his shoes... PVC Wonderful, and honest post, PVC. Thank you for taking the time to explain your story. I can't say I knew this to be true of you. I've been here for some time - off and on, and I have read through many discussions, but you just made me realize something that I failed to incorporate into my OP -- [compassion] I'm sorry Take care, ::EDIT BY KELLIKAT: Trimmed quoted post. No need to quote an entire lengthy post. It's an unnecessary waste of space and bandwidth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I am a Christian, and I think you unwise to shrug off Christianity as myth, or as fary tale, or as silly, etc... Well, as a few others have so eloquently said already, it was hardly "shrugged" off. However, I'll leave that where it lays at the moment. If you don't believe that hell nor the devil is literal then why would it be unwise to "shrug off" Xianity? Doesn't seem to be any demerits for doing so in that case. It doesn't mean we aren't "spiritual" (for lack of a better term). It doesn't mean we aren't still journeying and discovering life. We just do it without any "help" from some sort of misplaced faith. Hell exists on earth as suffering. Suffering stems from sin, which is a transgression of law God has put in place to govern. There one law to rule them all. LORD Of RINGS [Yes, I'm a fan] That law is Christ, whom is Spirit, which is Agape [Love] 1 glaring contradiction.... one moment god is everything, next he's an implicit external ruler who makes laws... do make up your mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 It lives... I'm surprised it came back (I've not lifted its tail feather to see what it is...) Ummmmm. I just wanted to point out that you really can't always tell by lifting the tailfeather... true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 1United... If you're going to stick around, do Webmaster Dave a favor and refrain from quoting an entire lengthy post in a reply. It's unnecessary and needlessly wastes space and bandwidth. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 WPC... Its making it up as it goes along... God is 'everything' then suddenly 'sin' crops up... but if God is everything, animate and inanimate then God was Pohl Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Mother Theresa, and any other number of money grubbing despots... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 I appoligize for the slight dig in op, I should have been more considerate. I should have first wished to understand your POV, and then explained my own, and that is my mistake. I do hope we can have a discussion still. Take care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 WPC... Its making it up as it goes along... God is 'everything' then suddenly 'sin' crops up... but if God is everything, animate and inanimate then God was Pohl Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Mother Theresa, and any other number of money grubbing despots... Exacty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Sorry, but the type of Christian I do come from is pretty strict - either you believe all, or nothing. It's impossible to really be a Christian and pick-and-choose your own bible for your own interpretations. Either you accept what has been handed to you, or you don't. That is complete non-sense - Do you think the early Christian fathers had all truth at their disposal, or that bible is ultimate truth? A Christian by definitian of term is a[ follower of Christ]. You, like many, many others have been conditioned by the "Wolves" to believe - think in accordance to how they want you to think. There is more to bible than meetes the eye, and there are scpripture not even included in bible that help complete puzzle. It is complete nonsense -- that is why we are EX-christians. Nevertheless, there are many people and many churches that do believe its all or nothing-- I come out of it also. Rhia was just stating a fact of her experience. We don't care about completing the puzzle. We think the whole puzzle is nonsense. Why should we accept your version of the nonsense, whatever it is? I have been here for over a year. I know what you are, and I know where you are coming from. I think it to be unwise to shut oneself off from a Christian viewpoint because of past experience with orthodoxy. You become upset because when I say this; that is pride, a product of ego- carnal mind - satan. So you know what we are --we have carnal minds and are of satan - Is that so hard to understand? Ego produce suffering - ego transgress agianst law - ego is carnal mind - we are in effect satan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 1) Hell is not a literal torture chamber for all eternity 2) Satan is not a literal being I dare say that most xtians would strongly disagree with you on this one. I sat through many a sermon on the "personal devil" and the literal suffering in hell. "You have to believe in a personal devil if you believe in a personal god..." Oh those people were just not in harmony with god's word like United1. Isn't it funny how all christians are deeply convicted that they have found the 'correct interpretation' of the bible. It doesn't matter if they are the most rabid fundamentalist or the most lovey dovey liberalist. No one but jesus was in complete harmony with God - I am not, as ego is big part of me [still] I seek to find harmony, however. I am student, working my way, by the Grace of God through the cycles of sin, and suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolution_beyond Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 1United - any chance of answering my questions? I understand that you are gradually picking your way through the thread but I'd be interested in your replies. Unless of course they are too hard for you to answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 It lives... I'm surprised it came back (I've not lifted its tail feather to see what it is...) TBH, I'd say we could answer more questions about Christianity, its insanity, its origins and how the bible was formed than most people who practice it... However, to allow the yawning chasm to swallow you or not... 1) 1 Tim 2 - Role women 2) Leviticus - Being gay... We have truth in bible, and we have egotistic view in bible - only Jesus was perfect. Bible written by man - many errors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Is that so hard to understand? Ego produce suffering - ego transgress agianst law - ego is carnal mind - we are in effect satan I didn't find it hard to understand - I was simply laughing at it. You just pick and choose Biblical terms "carnal mind", "satan" to suit yourself. There is such thing as ego --you certainly have plenty of it-- but these other terms are laughable, Biblespeak, imaginary nonsense. If you want call a human ego satan, you have every right to do so--but personally I wish you would take it elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 I have three questions that I would like to ask of any christian. 1. How can infinite God become finite man without losing his infinity and therefore his divinity? If infinite God become finite man - doesn't he simply become a divinely inspired man? In what way can you still call him God? God incarnated as a man seems to be logically impossible to me. 2. Why did God feel the need to sacrifice himself in order to do something as simple as allowing himself to forgive us? Isn't it a little insane for an all-powerful being to strictly limit himself in such a fashion that he can't forgive people unless he makes the outrageous gesture of incarnating as a human and then killing himself? It doesn't make sense to me. Why can't he simply forgive people who ask for forgiveness if that's what he wants to do? He is all-powerful God. He made the rules in the first place. Also he is outside of time so he could change the rules and make those new rules so that they always applied from the very beginning. I don't see why he would have to sacrifice himself. It doesn't seem very omnipotent to me. Who is forcing him to stick to his original plan? 3. Finally - The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. It is wrong of the Bible to say this - and it is intolerant (and therefore immoral). How can you trust the words of a book that is clearly wrong, intolerant and immoral? Good questions. Jesus was not God Himself - He like us was a part of God. The difference is that Jesus was begotten by God through the Spirit that is the Logos. The Word [Agape] His death does not redeem us, but it was His death and suffering that enabled Him to redeem us, and reconcile all men to God. He died because this was the only way to accomplish what He was sent to accomplish. He was born from both flesh, and Spirit. His body was going to die anyway, but the significance is [how] He died, and [why] it had to be this way. Jesus was sinless; He never suffered from sin because He never sinned. [suffering stems from sin, which leads to death] Death here represents the act of dying to sin because it is through sin that we realize what sin entails. Sin is a breaking of the law, or a missing of the mark. Jesus NEVER missed that mark, which is why God made Him to suffer. He suffered for us. [To conquer sin, one must know sin.] His death is significant in that, if He never died, He could not have conquered death. He could not have ressurected and later ascend to the father. Nor could He have sent us His Spirit, which is to lead us into all truth. It is through the Spirit that we obtain our salvation. We work it out with fear and trembling, as suffering is part of being saved, and most fear it. It is only through the Spirit of God, [which is Christ] that we are able to conquer/overcome the cycle of sin. There is no easy way out, so to speak. We must return until the cycle of suffering/sin is conquered through His Spirit. [Not all will embrace the Spirit, so not all will be "saved"] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 I am a Christian Gotta love the word christian. There are as many definitions of a christian as there are christians, it allows almost every belief there is. So beside the things mentioned above, what are your beliefs? Just want to know what you are. I am a non-denominational, liberal Christian with both pantheistic, and gnostic influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Bible written by man - many errors Yeah? So when are you going to get around to addressing what I wrote, since my entire post was pretty much dedicated to that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 It lives... I'm surprised it came back (I've not lifted its tail feather to see what it is...) TBH, I'd say we could answer more questions about Christianity, its insanity, its origins and how the bible was formed than most people who practice it... However, to allow the yawning chasm to swallow you or not... 1) 1 Tim 2 - Role women 2) Leviticus - Being gay... We have truth in bible, and we have egotistic view in bible - only Jesus was perfect. Bible written by man - many errors So how do you make up your mind which is which? Why is that view one that anyone here should care about? Why is it superior to other religious views? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 I am a Christian Gotta love the word christian. There are as many definitions of a christian as there are christians, it allows almost every belief there is. So beside the things mentioned above, what are your beliefs? Just want to know what you are. I am a non-denominational, liberal Christian with both pantheistic, and gnostic influence. Great... its a Chaos Magician in the Spareian/Hineian sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 A question, huh? Okay - explain to me why Yahweh was satiated (actually the text says "turned from his fierce anger") after the STONING OF ACHAN'S LITTLE KIDS. Now, these kids were not the EVIL little kids that belonged to the EVIL Canaanites. These little kids were Hebrew kids. God's own chosen ones. Who did nothing wrong, except having a father who shoplifted. Once you provide an explanation for this, we'll see if you're worth talking about anything more substantive. Man try to place human -ego- attribute on God spirit in order to justify own behavior. God is not angry, or jealous, or vengful. This is product of man. That God is in imagination of man, and not the one true God who is all in all. Does God contain human attribute? yes. But only because we [man] contain this attribute, and are a part of God. God does not need anything, He is all things. For us to effect His state of being, would mean that we have authority , and power over God. [Which we do not] God possess human attribute in mind, but not in character, or Spirit. God simply exists as existance, and does not require anything from us. God made law for mans benefit, when we beak law we suffer. We live within the machine, so to speak... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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