1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Oh, so you believe in that silly Virgin Birth nonsense. That's disappointing. I believe the Spirit manifest itself in flesh - it incarnated in Jesus. Christ is God Spirit in flesh. Virgin birth is not an issue. I'm afraid I don't believe in miracles. God, if he exists, seems quite content to work within the physical laws he made in the first place. I think he trusts the laws he laid down not to feel the need to break them. That was the kind of God I believed in when I believed in God. Even when I was a christian I was skeptical about miracles. I agree, to a point... How could a man reconcile us to God? If God himself wanted us reconciled to him then why was he powerless to simply change his mind about this? Why did he need a man - born of logos - to die before he could forgive us? Not forgive sin, lead us away from sin through His spirit. We are only forgiven, in as much as we are able to forgive ourselves. Jesus does not reconcile us to god; it is the Spirit that produces harmony. Christ is the Spirit than indwelt in the man Jesus; Christ is what reconciles not the man Jesus. I'm afraid I still don't understand. If we are all part of God then we are all born of both flesh and spirit, aren't we? What makes Jesus so special? He was that Spirit manifest in flesh. Meaning, the full measure of God essence was fully within Jesus the man. We are in the image of God - We are God's Children also, only we have ego, and Jesus did not. Living through ego is what makes us come to break law, and suffer. Jesus was God Spirit manifest in Flesh. He was God's [only] begotten son. He was born of this Spirit whereas we can only recieve it in heart. Yes, I understand that it was a sacrifice of a sinless man. But I still do not understand why God needed this before he could allow himself to forgive us. God is all-powerful. He makes the rules. Why does he need to make a stupid (and quite frankly ugly) gesture like this? Surely if God makes the rules he can just change them - and even make it so it had always been that way. Jesus was flesh and bone, He was going to die anyway. There is no significance in the dying. The significance is what happened after. As for forgiveness, if He had not died, and rose, and ascended, then His Spirit would not be available to us, [This is my understanding] We can not all be born of the Spirit, as we have all inherited ego. Jesus, had no ego. Spirit is what conquers sin, [spirit is Christ] Jesus was a good steward of the Spirit, and He followed it even to death. He [Jesus] gave up His spirit so that we might recieve it. [if that makes sense] God is not so personal, but He is all loving. T he whole Jesus story doesn't seem to square with an all-powerful deity. I seems to be something many struggle with "represents"? so it is a symbolic story and not a literal one? That's what I suspected anyway. No, it is a literal story in my mind, but I won't close my mind to it being symbolic. The only true death that we must face is a good one, and that is death of ego, ego is what cause sin, and sin is what cause suffering. Well, that certainly makes some kind of sense. It is a story made up by human beings to explain to human beings a perceived truth about deity and human relations with that deity. It was not a literal event - it is a symbolic story created to communicate a certain spiritual idea. Could be... As for resurrection - ascension - holy spirit. That is all fairy-tale nonsense, in my opinion. You seem to believe it. But it doesn't really work for me I'm afraid. Fair enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Isn't the "Ego" concept also from Buddhism? You have to get rid of your ego and your desires to reach the higher state of consciousness? And again, I'm in harmony with the world, nature, and hence your God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WarrantedPVC Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 1United, how do you know all these things you are claiming to know? And, how can the torture and death of an innocent person be used as a "currency" to pay for things unless a sadist (or sadomasochist) is involved in the transaction? PVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Woops! I spoke too soon. Sin is going to separate us, even if it is in a "false" sense. Come on, make up your mind. And what makes you think we will eventually die to ego -- I assume you mean after many reincarnations -- give us proof that this is happening. Many millions have died - millions have been reincarnated - please look at the state of the world. You can slap the word "Christ" on some concept like "love" or "agape" or whatever else you want it to mean and try to make it stick, but "Jesus Christ" means many things to many people. Just like what Hans said, why don't you call it "Bob" it might be less confusing. It is all just a word game anyway. You don't even play it very well. We have never been disconnected from God, not EVER, and we will never be. Ego produces sense of seperation, it produces the "feeling" of seperation. Christ [Not Jesus] reconciles us to God, it allows us to regain our sense of connection by taming ego. Christ is Love, and Love is Christ - see it or not, this [is] the reality of it. There is no proof, and [you] know that. I base this [belief] on what makes sense, and on what is just. We do not just die, you know. Our bodies will perish, and we will become sopil to feed plant, or worm food, or ash, etc. [our bodies] continue in the cycle of life, so does our Spiirt and soul, which is awareness of life. Everything that exists exists eternaly, as all things are eternal, having no true beginning, and no true end - only transformation, and change are constant in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Well, look at it this way. 1United has managed to see through the simplistic nonsense that is Orthodox Christianity. He's headed in the right direction towards the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 MadameM you challange me a lot with your posts. What did the smiley 'please' mean? That you dont think Im being honest or that Im not really challanged or what exactly? sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 Isn't the "Ego" concept also from Buddhism? You have to get rid of your ego and your desires to reach the higher state of consciousness? And again, I'm in harmony with the world, nature, and hence your God. You are one of the few then - I myself still struggle with ego, hence sin and suffering is still part of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 so does our Spiirt and soul, which is awareness of life. Don't include me in that tripe. I have neither a Spiirt (nor a Spirit) nor a soul. Only a brain (that remains semi-functional - in spite of past abuses) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Isn't the "Ego" concept also from Buddhism? You have to get rid of your ego and your desires to reach the higher state of consciousness? And again, I'm in harmony with the world, nature, and hence your God. I thought the same thing, that he sounds more Buddhist than Christian. Of course, Buddah isn't the way, Jesus is. Isn't it also so that in Buddhism, you don't follow Buddha, you become Buddha, so really in a sense Buddha is not the way, and Jesus is not the way either, but they're just forerunners. I think there's several concepts that are similar between them, and the modern Christianity just has totally missed the point. Jesus isn't real, and he doesn't have to be, because it's the question of becoming and being Jesus in the story that a person gets "saved", by realizing what is the good and bad things to do in life, because the life is the ultimate judge. I can tell that our guest here got the gist of life, but he calls life, love, rules, law, etc and all that, just a collective name "God" or "Jesus", and those words don't mean anything more than to be placeholders of the concepts. Like when I say "Computer", it can mean any computer, but it means a certain kind of features and functions that it must have. Some more abstract than others, like a GUI (graphical user interface) or "user friendly" and such. It's all compiled into one word. God is hence no more alive than the world, universe and we are, and no more knowledgable or skillfull than all of this all together. It's Pantheism, and even ontological naturalism. Our friend just use other words to describe the same reality. He describes it with religious symbols, but isn't it true that we also describe our world with symbols - granted not religious, but yet words we have defined and commonly approved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Well, look at it this way. 1United has managed to see through the simplistic nonsense that is Orthodox Christianity. He's headed in the right direction towards the truth. Well, it is a lot less objectionable than orthodoxy, I will give him that. Yet I just don't understand the "Christ" part. Why can't these liberal xians call "Love" "Love" instead of some other word? 1United has not developed a logical theology, but evidently it is satisying to him/her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Deva I think its because we were christians when we came to grasp some concepts that we see. If we were buddhists or Hindus when we grasped them then we would equate them to Shiva, Brahama or Nirvana or whatever else. But because we were steeped in Christianity and the bible we see them thru that lens. just what I tend to see think because I can read many writings of other religions and they see the same things but thru their lens sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Well, look at it this way. 1United has managed to see through the simplistic nonsense that is Orthodox Christianity. He's headed in the right direction towards the truth. 1U is one of the few "Christians" (by name) that really intrigue me with a little different angle to the whole. New perspectives are always fun. But it just sounds too good to be true, I hope you're not a sock-puppet dear 1U, because that is a sin on this site and transgression against that higher moral law of this site results in a temporary or finite separation from the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Hey Sojourner - that's a cool little banner you have there in your siggy line. I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 1United, how do you know all these things you are claiming to know? And, how can the torture and death of an innocent person be used as a "currency" to pay for things unless a sadist (or sadomasochist) is involved in the transaction? PVC It can't - it wasn't a payment to an angry God - You are thinking like an orthodox. I [don']t know in the sense that my knowledge can be verified scientifically, but that doesn't make it any less a truth. Once you realize who the one true God really is, things begin to fall into place [imo] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 And you know all these things how? Invisible deities been whispering in your ear? If God exist, then God must be all things. This is a meaningless statement and it doesn't address how you know god's specific attributes (which contradict in many ways the attributes others assign him). God is all things. So god is shit. God is evil. God is pain and misery. Some of your god's qualities I can live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 We have never been disconnected from God, not EVER, and we will never be. Ego produces sense of seperation, it produces the "feeling" of seperation. Christ [Not Jesus] reconciles us to God, it allows us to regain our sense of connection by taming ego. Christ is Love, and Love is Christ - see it or not, this [is] the reality of it. Great. But my point is why keep the name "Christ" while referring to Love? There is no proof, and [you] know that. I base this [belief] on what makes sense, and on what is just. We do not just die, you know. Our bodies will perish, and we will become sopil to feed plant, or worm food, or ash, etc. [our bodies] continue in the cycle of life, so does our Spiirt and soul, which is awareness of life Actually, I agree, except I wouldn't use the word "soul" or "spirit". But I was really discussing your idea that we eventually all die to ego. Everything that exists exists eternaly, as all things are eternal, having no true beginning, and no true end - only transformation, and change are constant in life. I agree with this, but I still don't see proof that we eventually die to ego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Isn't the "Ego" concept also from Buddhism? You have to get rid of your ego and your desires to reach the higher state of consciousness? And again, I'm in harmony with the world, nature, and hence your God. You are one of the few then - I myself still struggle with ego, hence sin and suffering is still part of my life. Part of it is that when you focus too much on sin, sin becomes you more. You have to be able to let go and be calm and at peace with yourself and your existence to really beat your ego. But it also requires complete and total separation from another desire you have, which is search and belief in higher beings. Not until you can release your mind from any kind of religious belief or dogma can you be truly free. Because your religion makes you focus on your sin, instead of focus on the good things. The "demons" and the "dragons" gets their energy from your attention, and as long as you feed them they get stronger and you have less control over them. When you can steer your mind without actively steering it, you're in control. Listen, you want to go to Heaven and you do not want to go to Hell. Correct? Why? Is it because "you" want this and that or because that is the ultimate good for existence? I'd say it's most likely that your Ego is the one driving you to want to avoid Hell and go to Heaven, right? Or it is your Ego that wants to please God in one way or another, or your Ego that wants to obey God and avoid sin. So who is it that wants these things? You, you and you. So in the end, your strive to avoid sin is a sin in itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sojourner Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 MadameM Thanks, the things U1 is sharing are pretty common in universalist circles that are more unitarian. Its very eye opening for me to read the responses to U1's posts. sojourner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Deva I think its because we were christians when we came to grasp some concepts that we see. If we were buddhists or Hindus when we grasped them then we would equate them to Shiva, Brahama or Nirvana or whatever else. But because we were steeped in Christianity and the bible we see them thru that lens. just what I tend to see think because I can read many writings of other religions and they see the same things but thru their lens sojourner Maybe so, but I think it should be clear that the word "Christ" in the sense that most people have of that word, is not how 1 is using it in this thread. This explanation does not make it more palatable or satisfying to me. It seems dishonest. Just my personal opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 You condescending, ("honest") little fucker! You come here, to my site, where I bother no one; and attempt to tell ME that *I'M* a hypocrite!!!!!!!!!!!! I do not go onto Christian sites to fuck with their heads. In fact, I take this one as a personal shot on a site where I'M SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE! You disgusting little worm - how dare you even come here and post without welcome. And since you claim to have been here for a year, 1, why not tell me - since you claim to "know me"... WHO THE HELL AM I? Did you read my ex-testimony?! I think you're just another asshole, here to get attention when it would otherwise go towards helping to rehabilitate those who actually need us. You just want to be able to go back to your sky-god, and your Christian buddies, and be able to get high-fives and because you "took on" the big, bad Atheists, made them mad, was insulted and "persecuted", but "stood strong in the face of your adversary" - gave them "the light", and left them, as Christ says to do. What? Did your mommy not give you enough affection when you were younger? Did daddy beat you? So you feel you have to come on here and throw your weight around because nothing else makes you feel good or sets you apart in your faith or in your life? Wanna make sure you get some fucking "crown of Righteousness" when you get to your little heaven? You're nothing but a fucking emotional bully, to come on here and be such an asshole, when you were uninvited. YOU - call ME - a HYPOCRITE, when I have done NOTHING to you outside of this site, a site for EX-CHRISTIANS. You were not invited, thusly, you'd do best to leave because you will not be tolerated. These responses you're getting on this thread are not tolerance - they're annoyance. FUCK YOU AND I HOPE YOU FUCKING BURST INTO FLAMES!!! (And to quote Gramps - "just exercising my Freedom of Speech!) Sorry you feel this way. You actually effected my state of being with this post. You in effect gained power over me for a moment. Is that what you were looking for? I don't mean to insult, but we all deal with ego, and I am not exempt. My view of you being hypocritical stem from ego. it was pride based, and unworthy of my call as Christian. I should not judge, but I did. For that I will appologize. Take care, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 What is your definition of love? I mean, it sounds really no different than the Wiccan rede or simply "Live and let live." If that's the case, what's your point to all this? I think everyone here can agree on "Live and Let live." Oh, and if God is everything and everywhere, why do we need to be led there? Aren't we already there, no matter where we are? Definition of Love would be ultimate authority - Christ- When we live through love, we reconnect with God. This is of course an illusion, as we have never been disconnected. What love does is melt away our ego, and by doing so we find fulfillment in life, and find harmony with all that is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Definition of Love would be ultimate authority Excuse me, but that's quite silly. Authority is not the definition of Love. GW Bush loves you? The Supreme Court loves you? The police loves you? - Christ- When we live through love, we reconnect with God. This is of course an illusion, as we have never been disconnected. What love does is melt away our ego, and by doing so we find fulfillment in life, and find harmony with all that is. Pretty words... and that's all that it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 There is no proof, and [you] know that. I base this [belief] on what makes sense, and on what is just. We do not just die, you know. Our bodies will perish, and we will become sopil to feed plant, or worm food, or ash, etc. [our bodies] continue in the cycle of life, so does our Spiirt and soul, which is awareness of life. There is no awareness apart from the brain. This has been proven. The brain brings awareness, and as part of the body, it too will perish. This has not been proven - can one prove that plant have no awareness that it exists? Brain is how man operate, but things such as bacteria, viruses, plant, atom, cell, etc. seem to do just fine w/o brain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Harley Posted January 5, 2008 Share Posted January 5, 2008 Granpa who wrote that quote about the light? I think it is beautiful. this thread is amazing. Ive really been so challanged and blessed reading it this morning with my coffee. Everyone brought such incredible insights to this thread its really one to be kept and revisited often for me Sojourner Ah, another martyr for Christ hoves into view... The quote was written by an atheist called J. Michael Straczynski, in his ground braking series Babylon 5. This from Wiki on the context... G'Kar found his new holy status very frustrating; While many Narn were coming to him for guidance, they were more interested in applying their own interpretation of his words, or focusing on some things he had said while ignoring others — even when he himself was insisting otherwise. His sermons, however, were often quite inspired. For example, when asked "What is truth, and what is god?" he explained:If I take a lamp and shine toward the wall, a bright spot will appear on the wall. The lamp is our search for truth, for understanding. Too often we assume the light on the wall is God, but the light is not the goal of the search, it is the result of the search. The more intense the search, the brighter the light on the wall. The brighter the light on the wall, the greater the revelation upon seeing it. Similarly, someone who does not search, who does not bring a lantern with him, sees nothing. What we perceive as God is the by-product of our search for God. It may simply be an appreciation of the light, pure and unblemished. Not understanding that it comes from us, sometimes, we stand in front of the light and assume we are the center of the universe. God looks astonishingly like we do. Or we turn to look at our shadow and assume all is darkness. If we allow ourselves to get in the way, we defeat the purpose - which is use the light of our search to illuminate the wall in all its beauty and all it flaws, and in so doing, better understand the world around us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1United Posted January 5, 2008 Author Share Posted January 5, 2008 This is a meaningless statement and it doesn't address how you know god's specific attributes (which contradict in many ways the attributes others assign him). God is all things. So god is shit. God is evil. God is pain and misery. Some of your god's qualities I can live without. You will continue in the cycle of sin and suffering until you start living through the Spirit, and tame ego. Ego cause pain, and misery [iN] God. God is just the body in which we live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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