Home Schooling

[Taphophilia]

If you are not home educating your children, even if they are enrolled in an off site school, you are doing a piss poor job as a parent. Parents should be their childrens first and primary educator. Education should begin at home and as early as possible.

[R. S. Martin]

I'd like to interject the following: The name of this site is Ex-Christian.net, right? How many of us were public or privately schooled our whole life and still ended up BRAINWASHED? (Raises hand, was in public school from age 6-18) Come on guys, if public/private schools were that crucial in causing people to question their beliefs, this country would not be majority Christian. I myself didn't escape the fold until my 30's and I have a feeling that the majority of people on this site didn't escape until after school and in many cases, decades after they graduated.

 

As far as science is concerned...when America was in its early hay day of scientific advances, quite a few of them were home schooled, including Thomas Edison who was labeled "addled" and "dumb" by his teachers in public school.

 

Jubilant, I don't know enough about homeschooling to decide. That's what I voted after reading this thread, after I wrote my last post. I am learning much from this thread--both pros and cons. I didn't know you wanted the stories of our school experiences but somehow I ended up writing mine. It's in Post 49 of this thread. I have no kindergarten. As you can see, Grades 1-3 in rural public school, Grades 4-5 in centralized public school, Grades 6-8 in church school. No high school. My questions about religion started when I first heard about the plan of salvation. It made no sense to me, ever. I don't think school had anything to do with it.

 

My schooling as an adult was mostly in religious institutions, too.

 

From ages 12 to 28 I was practically isolated with my own people from all outside contact, though the isolation was not total. Mail and newspapers and visits to the doctor and store were part of life, as well as customers from the city who came for farm produce. There was no restriction on literature though time to read was severely limited, and there was no telephone, radio, or tv. Internet access did not exist. Like I say in my avatar, I do my own thinking. Some of us will learn if given half a chance and others won't learn if it's pushed down their throats or if they're bashed over the head with it. Also, I would like to clarify that in my mind, deconversion does not of necessity constitute learning. I am not quite sure what position is being taken here on the topic.

 

"Train up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it." I think many of us were raised on that verse. We know from formal research in psychology and from life experience that there is much truth in that verse. Witness all the religious programing we can hardly get rid of no matter how much we know it's not true or how many conscious changes we have made in our external life situations. It's the way most humans operate. If I had to slap a percentage on those who differ, I'd suggest ten percent, though I'm not sure where that number comes from.

 

I would also suggest that ten percent (1 out of 10) would work just about right for survival. A clan of ten adults with a few seniors and some children might be a normal-sized tribe in hunter-gatherer society--what do you think? There might be another tribe who also belonged to the same group when it came to hunting but did not live out of the same pot when it came to cooking time. Each group had to adjust to situation and climate. Can't expect the same in the high Arctic as in the Amazon.

 

Anyway, with that size of a group, if you had a creative thinker you had your leader who could solve serious problems and lead in times of crisis. My guess is this was the wise man or woman of the clan/town/tribe for whom people sometimes sent. Too many of them in one group and you would end up with clashes of leadership and schisms in the clan--war. Also, if only ten percent are creative thinkers, chances are large that their strengths do not lie in the same area. This means that the chances of them clashing are fewer because they will probably not specialize in the same thing.

 

On the other hand, tribes tend to be made up of biologically related individuals and many talents run in families. This would make for higher chances of two people having the same talents. But possibly not in the same generation. Whatever, humanity is where it is today. It seems all of us from aboriginals of all times and places to the most sophisticated societies of all times and places have believed in teaching the young in "the way that they should go." Most do not depart from it. This allows for social stability so that we can discern stable patterns over extended periods of time and write ethnographies for entire nations and peoples.

 

Significant numbers do "depart from the way that they should go" to deal with crises and bring social change and improvement (we hope). But we still believe in educating the young. How else to prepare them for life? If they live, they must be prepared.

[R. S. Martin]

If you are not home educating your children, even if they are enrolled in an off site school, you are doing a piss poor job as a parent. Parents should be their childrens first and primary educator. Education should begin at home and as early as possible.

 

Much was written while I was writing my last post (I see the thread was moved in the meantime) but this is one I want to respond to. I agreed whole heartedly. No matter what my teachers said, it all boiled down to "What will Mom and Dad say?"

 

Madame, thanks for your applause up the thread somewhere. I just said it the way it looks to me. It's nice to know someone agrees.

[white_raven23]

All public school is good for, is teaching kids to be a good cog in the machine. I loathed HS. College was my freedom.

 

As for HS? Let's take one subject. My fave for this example is HISTORY.

 

Freshman History - Mayflower BS pro-religion version (in public school)... Pioneers and Settlers the sanitized version (Pro-white people) ... Revolutionary War ... Civil War Super-sanitized version (It was all to free the black slaves! Not.) White folk go West the sanitized version....and oop! Year 1 HS over!

 

Sophmore History - Mayflower BS pro-religion version (in public school)... Pioneers and Settlers the sanitized version (Pro-white people) ... Revolutionary War ... Civil War Super-sanitized version (It was all to free the black slaves! Not.) White folk go West the sanitized version....and oop! Year 2 HS over! Um....Deja Vu.

 

Juniors History - Mayflower BS pro-religion version (in public school)... Pioneers and Settlers the sanitized version (Pro-white people) ... Revolutionary War ... Civil War Super-sanitized version (It was all to free the black slaves! Not.) White folk go West the sanitized version....and oop! Year 3 HS over! Um....WTF?

 

Senior History - Okay...NOW we are getting somewhere! Revolutionary War... Civil War Super-sanitized version ... Great Depression American Perspective(holy crap! New territory!) ... WWI American Perspective... WWII MEGA American perspective....outta time! Ready for the Real World!!

 

Notice anything? As far as Pro-American propaganda goes (shit, why advocate the wonders of other countries? They don't want you to ever GO to them, or possibly even MOVE there)...Any Pre-Mayflower History, "old" world history is virtually irrelevant with the exception of Britian being "bad guys" for the Revolutionary War.

 

I guess they expect you to get a real taste of History from college...only...SNAP! Most the kids who went to my HS didn't GO to college!

 

College was a Learning Orgasm for me!! No more trying to learn real history on the side...I was really allowed to Learn History!! Isn't it a little odd that HS history was WASTED re-learning and re-memorizing the same shit over and over???

 

And NO history whatsoever of ANYTHING from John F Kennedy forward? Don't the last 40 years count as history? Nope. God forbid a teacher even mention the Vietnam War...know why it was fought? I still don't. No clue why the big America Cock was stuck into the affairs of Vietnam...they've got no OIL...why GO? And I'm too wrapped up still learning other Non American history to be all that interested (give me another couple years). But see? See? And I LIKE learning! You think the jokers I graduated with (the one's who bothered) gave a fuck? Back when I graduated, you could still get into the military with just a GED. Supposedly you can't do that now. But that's what a lot of my friends went and did.

 

Part of the reason I never bother going to HS reunions is because most of my friends didn't even graduate.

 

If I ever lost my mind and had a kid, NO WAY am I exposing them to the atrophy encouraging stagnant pond that is public school education. No way.

[Japedo]

My Vote: Either way

 

People should choose what's best for their family without government over site or rule. Every parents knows their child better then any teacher.

 

I went to a fundytard private school that scarred me beyond words and induced culture shock when I moved to public school when I was a young teenager. Worst experience of my life, upside I wouldn't be the person I am today without that experience.

 

Parents are fully capable of raising their children with out big brothers red tape and stamp of approval.

 

Having said that all 4 of my kids went/ go to public school. All participate in sports, band, music, drama and a host of other things. I'm involved in what they do at school and teach them at home, as Taph said, the responsibility falls on the parents to make sure their kids are learning and what sort of people their kids are hanging with. Public school isn't the evil that many like to paint it either, but neither is homeschooling. What works for me might not work for thee and that's fine. To each their own.

 

I have to brag also, My daughters first year at college and she made the deans list! My twins both plan on entering the military and my youngest is shooting for a college in Boston, he's a JR.

[Jubilant]

If you are not home educating your children, even if they are enrolled in an off site school, you are doing a piss poor job as a parent. Parents should be their childrens first and primary educator. Education should begin at home and as early as possible.

 

I completely agree with you. When our oldest was in elementary (I think it was first grade) we were informed that he was having problems and so my husband went up to the school to find out what we could do. Anyway, while he was up there, two other women were there complaining because they had to HELP their children after school hours. WTF? I often wonder why people bother having children if they expect everyone else to raise them, it pisses me off like nothing else. That doesn't mean that I think people who send their children off to school expect teachers to raise their children, I'm talking about uninvolved, its ALL on the teachers type of parents...they make me sick.

 

White Raven You hit on a HUGE pet peeve of mine, history. I'm just as annoyed with the watered down versions as you are and they start oh so early with false teachings. How precious and cute to see the elementary Thanksgiving plays where the Indians and Pilgrims get along splendidly. GRRRRR. I also take issue with how our *Founding Fathers* are only looked at through rose colored glasses...and why on earth America STILL has Columbus Day is beyond me.

 

Japedo...I totally agree with you and think that you are an amazing mother with wonderful children. I get irked when home schoolers slam public school students and make generalizations; you would not believe some of the remarks that come from some of their mouths...according to those idiots, high school students want nothing to do with anyone except for their peers, puhleeze. How your son is with mine, who is indeed younger, is the norm and not the exception. My ds thinks that your ds rocks!

 

Tap and Madame you know that I think you are wonderful moms as well.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Lazaus Long said this:

 

"Specialization is for insects"

 

Taken it to hands and heart that Beastie be able to fix a blood or plumbing leak, rewire a car or a house, be able to butcher his own meat critters, cook same. He's learned to find sources of materials to help himself along, not unusual to find him nose deep in something most mid-teens would consider "ikkie".

 

Public School, like belonging to a church, NRA, Lodges, Fraternal outfits, political parties etc, so on, harrrUMPH! and uh-HUH! are good excuses for folks to toss money at their *problems* and hope like hell they go away.

Here in my part of world, kid is gone from 0645 to 1445 daily, fed at lunch, and baby sat through out the day. If was working a "real job" hell not have to pay a babysitter to be there to watch kid..

 

Anyway, it is incumbent on the parent to guide the kids, find interests, but also send them on specific courses of learning, set a method, help them find direction in the world around them.

 

As we parents enable and empower our kids, all too soon, those kids grow enough knowledge to eventually tell us to "Fuck off Dad, Mom, I KNOW what I'm doing..!". Remember we too did similar when we felt weight of the ole ball and chain around our ankles.

 

We're here to ensure that the spawn we produce, or have attached to use make it to aduthood armed with viable, usable knowledge.

 

Having a kid(s) that is equally happy with the Boy Scout manual (Lord BP's version, not todays PC nutcut version), en encyclopedia set, Foxfire books, and Voltaire and like goes a long way to ensure that they are free of State and Church.

Give that kid a sharp pocket knife and a .22 rifle. Give them a bicycle and binoculars. Hand them the trust and distance you dare spare.

 

Beastie's break started with with Robert Heinlein's Kid's books. Fire off the visions of a brighter tomorrow with books of all kinds today.

 

His pocketknife has done some fast and fancy skinning and cutting. He KNOWS it is a tool and not a fruxxing toy...

 

Proctors of the bullshit can't beat imagination out of a bright kid.

 

Make sure your youngster can and be most things when needed.

 

 

kL

[R. S. Martin]

"Undecided" for it all depends on the circumstances.

 

If the public school system is a piece of crap and the parents are well-educated and know what they're doing, homeschooling can be a wonderful thing.

 

If parents use homeschooling to keep their kids from learning what to them is the "painful truth" that simply Must Not Beâ„¢... you know whom I have in mind.

 

My position exactly. As I read this thread I am glad once more not to have my own kids. I did enjoy working with other people's kids for many years. And some of that time was spent working with them at a public school. I also tried my hand at homeschooling one family but wasn't very successful. I loved my work at the school and I loved "my" kids. I guess I'm weird but I'm even glad not to think about having grown kids coming home and about not having grand kids. I like having just my own life.

 

Christians would say that's selfish, but because I'm a woman and women aren't supposed to initiate a relationship with a mate, they're basically out of luck. Somehow, in the church where I grew up there were way more women than men and I'm not catering to men where I'm now so......I never had to make any hard decision for anyone to criticize when it came to having kids. Just other stuff.

[MathGeek]

Either way here, parents have the right to do as they please. I am a centrist libertarian and my faith is currently waning with the American government.

 

My only beef with homeschooling is it threatens my employment, but that would only occur if EVERYBODY lost faith in the American public education system. It won't happen because it's a tax-funded babysitting service. Plus, since my degree is in mathematics and secondary education, I could conceivably get a job at a community college or an entry position in some computer mill someplace.

 

I really think the homeschooling "epidemic" is a parallel response to the failure of the American system. The other response is how many people are not willing to become teachers. My ticket is punched in my home state since rural districts are on the verge of implosion and the number of older teachers is dwindling to early retirement or resignation. My school is part of an experience project with a small four-year university to give prospective teachers a view of what teaching a high-poverty school is like. Every year since I've started, I've only seen two teachers for each visit (one in fall, one in spring) made each year. I could be wrong on my counts, but it gives a dose of sullenness every time they leave.

 

The system may be failing, but how many parents does anyone really think want to keep their kids home when the world at large is working against them everyday?

[RIPw4]

Perhaps I am in the minority and thats ok!

I still believe facing real world problems is the key to building socialization skills.

Sure there are gangs, drugs, sex, and christianity in schools. I believe that having to interact with these things is what helps people to develop character.

Case in point. I went to public school and private school.

The public school that I went to was almost 80% black with the remaining being white, and 3 asians.. I can easily talk to, associate with, and get along with a black person in my area.. The private school I attended was 100% white. The people I went to school with were so scared of those damn "niggers" and would not ever want to have to work next to them. It disgusted me but they had this thinking because they were not exposed to black people. Had they been in an environment where blacks and whites co-existed together, they would have realized that blacks were similar to them, just a different color.

But again, this is all a matter of opinion and I respect anyone who feels differently..

[Freethinker]

I strongly believe that a child who has no interest in math or science has no business doing math or science, or considering a career in math or science. Only those kids who like math or science should go on to work in those fields. Math and science are pretty hardcore fields, and they are very demanding. Only the best and brightest should get in. We shouldn't be trying to coax some spark of interest into theses kids, trying to get more of these disinterested kids into the fields.

 

Freethinker, you are missing important aspects of life when you say this.

 

1. I don't think you read HanSolo's linked article about what kind of people are being trained to fill political offices in the United States. Nor have you taken an objective look at what fundamentalist religion does to our world. Perhaps you are one of those people who believes that it's okay for fundamentalist religionists to knock down towers in one country and for the fundamentalist religionists in that country to then go to war against them, dragging the rest of the world's economy down with them.

 

2. There is something wrong with the view that people shouldn't learn math. All of us need basic math skills. We need to know what happens to our bank accounts when we buy stuff. We need to be able to read signs and speedometers, etc. I'm one of those people who would not have learned had it not been drilled into me. There is a difference between going into a math career and not knowing basic math skills. I am talking about basic math skills. I am not the only person who needs to be drilled in order to learn the basics required to live in today's society.

 

3. So if you think knowing science is not important it seems you are missing important life issues. Maybe you don't know that lives are being lost because science is not allowed to progress due to some religious superstitions. If our top politians and those who vote for them are educated in creationism, then they are going to think like you even if they deconvert and they won't allow science to progress because they love their religious parents too much to upset them. They won't consider the ethical issues involved about people dying needlessly because of supersitions. All they will think about is their relationships with their superstitious parents and families. I have a very serious problem with that.

 

4. With major parts of the world's most powerful nation ignorant of science, if not outright believing evolution is evil, the rest of the world is forced to deal with Dark Ages logic. Some of this has already been discussed in this post. However, for a nation like the USA whose leadership depends so heavily on elected officials, what the majority believes in a given voting block has an impact on world politics. Freethinker, how do you expect to continue to be free to think freely if you allow this kind of thinking to continue unhindered? Nay, if you DEFEND this kind of thinking?

 

I cannot believe you interpreted that so badly. What I meant was, a child who has no interest in math or science should not be coerced to earn a college degree and then find employment in math or science.

[Alice]

This is one of those situations where I would find it hard to say a particular style of educating a child is right or wrong - it depends on how well it is delivered. So there will be excellent educations provided in homes, in state schools and in private schools and lousy educations in all three as well.

 

I feel the need to comment on 'being involved'. I've had a weird relationship with my children's own schooling because I've found it really difficult to be 'involved' - this is in part because my Father was over involved in mine. He used to go through these phases of getting me to write and rewrite pieces of homework until they met his magical standard of acceptance, which occasionally meant I produced something that was not what the school was looking for and then I'd be in further trouble with my Father for not having conveyed the requirements adequately. I can still remember the sick feeling in my belly on the evenings when he decided I should present my homework for his approval. This was a phase thing with him and at other times he showed very little interest in what I was doing.

 

I was sort of homeschooled for two years - we were living abroad and the international high school I first attended had an australian curriculum and my parents became concerned this would affect my 'O' levels (exams taken at 16yrs) so they took me out of the school and enrolled me on a correspondence course with a UK college. My parents were were both working, so basically I was left to my own devises, any queries or questions I had for my tutors had to be sent by post, so it would take about three weeks to get an answer. I suffered from a complete lack of inspirational teaching, well a complete lack of any teaching I suppose. I see sawed between getting away with doing no academic study whatsoever and (during these bits I spent hours reading Daphne Du Maurier novels and fantasising about running away) and other times when my Father stood over me, shouting at me to come up with an answer on some topic I hadn't actually been taught.

 

This would be poor quality homeschooling.

 

Before and after this experience came thirteen school changes and a varitey of educational experiences - mostly bad, with possibly three real teachers in total (the kind that inspire a thirst for knowledge and know how to tap into a child's inner potential). Despite all this - I somehow managed to be the first person in my family to go on to study at degree level.

 

Although I've found it nigh on impossible to be involved in my children's schooling (if they ask for help I do give it, but it doesn't come easily to me), I am completely passionate about and involved in their education. I read with my children (not the books they bring home from school ... other books, for pleasure) We go to plays and museums and galleries. We play word games, we discuss philosophy at the dinner table, we take them out of school to go on day trips and write notes full of lies saying they've had 24hr bugs (I started out telling the truth but you get in allsorts of trouble)

 

My 'involvement' with their schooling has been to limit its hold and impact on them - especially early exams. I reminded them that SATS are teacher exams - not pupil exams and as long as they do their best to recall what their teachers have taught them - the results they get are a reflection of the quality of their teachers, nothing more. I hate with a passion reading about children having anxiety attacks about exams.

 

We have explained carefully to our children the advantages of getting good results in exams from 16yrs onwards - in terms of career options and life choices. They have all achieved excellent results although we never hand out rewards for good grades (the grade is its own reward) and they know our love for them has nothing to do with academic success - (something else I hate with a passion)

 

We encouraged our eldest to take the degree of his choice - although there is no clear career path to follow it, just for the joy of learning a subject he loves and at last he has found some inspirational teachers and he's heading for a first from one of the UK's top universities. My next son down dropped out of university and is currently gaining an education by travelling around the world - just for the joy of learning by living.

 

For years I've had these guilt feelings about my approach to my children's schooling but Taph, you've made me feel a whole lot better - because I've just realised that my children are home educated.

[Vigile]

All public school is good for, is teaching kids to be a good cog in the machine. I loathed HS. College was my freedom.

 

Agree 100% and that mirrors my own experience.

[Vigile]

BTW, HS is in most cases dumbed down to the lowest common denomenator. If the US truly wanted to educate their kids instead of just indoctrinate them as WR pointed out, they would separate the kids like they do in Italy. If by 8th grade a student doesn't show he/she has an aptitude toward academics, ship them off to vocational training. If a student shows an aptitutude towards maths and science, or literature and philosophy then send them to technological school or classic education school.

 

How could this not benefit society? Especially now that the US is in direct competition for jobs with Indian and other educated English-speaking nations like Ghana?

 

The current education system benefits only politicians who benefit from a dumbed down public. This is not unlike the system the PRI upheld in Mexico during their 40 odd year reign, where they held power by gaining votes in the uneducated rural areas of the nation. If Americans had the same level of basic education as your average W European nation, does anyone truly believe that the current two party, two-sides-of-the-same-coin system would survive the scrutiny? Does anyone truly believe that CNN would get away with broadcasting 24-hour Britney Spears watch? Does anyone truly believe that Fox news wouldn't be laughed off the air?

 

In the US there can be no debate about home education. A do nothing parent couldn't do worse and parents like Jubs can only improve upon what's available in public school.

 

I know Ro and I disagree on this but I know my own experience and I know from traveling that American colective knowledge is a joke compared to the rest of the industrialized planet.

[Grandpa Harley]

If you are not home educating your children, even if they are enrolled in an off site school, you are doing a piss poor job as a parent. Parents should be their childrens first and primary educator. Education should begin at home and as early as possible.

 

OK, it's your turn to be reminded I adore you today

[Unknowing1]

For both public schooling and home schooling, it depends on what the child is being taught (well rounded education), who is doing the teaching (qualification or ability), how that teaching is being done (best suited to the child) and the social aspect (ability to socialize with people of various cultures).

[Grandpa Harley]

And NO history whatsoever of ANYTHING from John F Kennedy forward? Don't the last 40 years count as history? Nope. God forbid a teacher even mention the Vietnam War...know why it was fought? I still don't. No clue why the big America Cock was stuck into the affairs of Vietnam...they've got no OIL...why GO? And I'm too wrapped up still learning other Non American history to be all that interested (give me another couple years). But see? See? And I LIKE learning! You think the jokers I graduated with (the one's who bothered) gave a fuck? Back when I graduated, you could still get into the military with just a GED. Supposedly you can't do that now. But that's what a lot of my friends went and did.

 

Vietnam... OK Joe Kennedy gets the mob to get the Presidency for JFK. JFK did SE Asian politics as a 'project' at Harvard, and got his fingers in there early... basically he was trying to prove his undergrad theories had some credence, and wanted to show the French (and thus the Old World) what a New World mind could do. He got his head blown off before he saw that he'd failed (although he'd failed before the last Frenchman had shipped out) Some of it was ideological, but a lot was just a spoiled rich kid playing international politics. contrary to popular myth, JFK was about to extend US troops in SE asia... Johnson pulled back some on JFK's plan, which saved a lot of lives on both sides. LBJ was really handed a poisoned chalice when JFK got creamed...

[Jubilant]

Perhaps I am in the minority and thats ok!

I still believe facing real world problems is the key to building socialization skills.

Sure there are gangs, drugs, sex, and christianity in schools. I believe that having to interact with these things is what helps people to develop character.

Case in point. I went to public school and private school.

The public school that I went to was almost 80% black with the remaining being white, and 3 asians.. I can easily talk to, associate with, and get along with a black person in my area.. The private school I attended was 100% white. The people I went to school with were so scared of those damn "niggers" and would not ever want to have to work next to them. It disgusted me but they had this thinking because they were not exposed to black people. Had they been in an environment where blacks and whites co-existed together, they would have realized that blacks were similar to them, just a different color.

But again, this is all a matter of opinion and I respect anyone who feels differently..

 

:-) I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. The public school in which I was raised and grew up in (our class was the biggest ever...88 students graduated in 1988) was almost 100% white, no gangs, drugs (marijuana being the biggy). During my eighth grade year and that year ONLY, there were three black students. No one picked on them, and in fact, everyone was rushing to be friends with the black students. I'm still in contact with the female who was in my classes way back in 1983. Aside from them, we had one Asian girl that went to our school for the last two years and one Mexican Foreign Exchange Student who everyone loved because she was constantly correcting our Spanish Teacher. Northern Michigan Schools are almost all the same. I joined the military after school and was able to converse with people from any background, despite their race even though I was not in a big city with a diversity of people.

 

My children, like my husband and I, can converse easily with and associate with and get along with anyone despite their age or ethnicity...and our 9yo has always been home schooled. They don't need to be in a classroom environment for twelve years to learn that people of other colors are similar to them but just a different color, just like I didn't need to be. There are many people who grew up in that environment and never came out the way you did, which appears to be a person who is not prejudice, and I can name at least four people that I know personally for my case in point; my stepfather (raised in Detroit), my husbands step-father (Ohio), my father (Flint, MI) and my husbands father (Norfolk, VA). All four can converse with people just fine from all walks of life and were raised in communities in which they went to schools with people of other races, however, though aside from my step-father who lives in the rural town that I was raised, they have friends of other races though they carry certain prejudices and stereotypes of the majority of people within them. IMO, the issue of whether or not one views people from other cultures negatively/positively is a reflection of their parents attitudes, regardless of where they are raised or go to school. I wasn't raised with other cultures and do not have a prejudice bone in my body and neither does my mother. There are communities in the United States in which schooled children never grow up with anyone but people of their own race and who are never exposed to gangs or violence and they come out just fine and able to associate with anyone of any race.

 

For the record, our son's best friend is black. For the record, our son has had exposure to drugs in our neighborhood and chooses not to hang out with those kids. He's also been exposed to bullying in our neighborhood and has come out stronger then ever, he is his own person (as many schooled children are who endure those same things). He'd prefer to have one or two good and true friends vs. a group of friends in which he has to bend who he is in order to *fit-in*.

 

Not everyone's "real world" experiences are the same but they are very much "real" and I think that you are looking over that fact. I also think that you are confusing socialization skills with socializing. My husband and I feel that we are best suited to teach our children socialization skills so that they can "blend-in" and function in society, i.e.: Please and thank you. Looking at a person in the eyes when they are speaking to you. Opening doors for people with heavy bags or the elderly. How to wait patiently in line (and they get a nice look at how NOT to act and how idiotic one looks when they don't). How to properly tip a waitor/waitress. How to treat those in the service industry with courtesy even if they or the service person is not having a good day. It doesn't matter if a child goes to school or is home educated, children tend to treat people how their parents treat people and an involved parent will, though there are exceptions to this rule, have children that know how to use those skills outside of the home and classroom. Socializing is different, socializing is what one does when they have fun and/or converse with others...which most home schooled children that I know do. Socializing is what teacher's generally get after their children in class for doing, "You aren't here to socialize, you are here to learn. Be quiet, sit down, and stop talking." Of course they are free to "socialize" during their class breaks, recess (which is becoming obsolete in many schools...don't want anyone getting hurt), and after school hours.

[Jubilant]

For both public schooling and home schooling, it depends on what the child is being taught (well rounded education)

 

Definitions of "well-rounded" vary from person to person. Most schools are limited because they have to teach what the school system has deemed to be taught.

 

, who is doing the teaching (qualification or ability),

 

Again studies, when it comes to home education, have shown that it doesn't matter if a parent had a higher education. I will continue to fight (letters, phone calls, etc.) lawmaker proposals that seek to enact qualifications that one must have in order to home educate their children.

 

 

how that teaching is being done (best suited to the child)

 

I agree with whatever is best suited to the child.

 

 

(ability to socialize with people of various cultures).

 

Something that many people never experience depending upon the community in which they live, but turn out to be successful and good people with good lives. There are people in my home town that have never been to Southern Michigan, let alone another state or country. My mother was 38 years old before she even ventured out of Michigan and that was only because she came down to see me graduate from boot camp in Orlando. Since then, she's been to Virginia, Texas, Germany (to see my sister in the Army), and Florida again and again...oddly enough, she communicates well with people from all walks of life and cultures, despite the fact that she was born and raised in an all white town and went to school in the 50's, her class was smaller than mine. However, she was a waitress her whole life and she loves to talk.

 

Sorry guys, as far as I'm concerned, this whole issue of socialization is moot.

[R. S. Martin]

I strongly believe that a child who has no interest in math or science has no business doing math or science, or considering a career in math or science. Only those kids who like math or science should go on to work in those fields. Math and science are pretty hardcore fields, and they are very demanding. Only the best and brightest should get in. We shouldn't be trying to coax some spark of interest into theses kids, trying to get more of these disinterested kids into the fields.

 

Freethinker, you are missing important aspects of life when you say this.

 

1. I don't think you read HanSolo's linked article about what kind of people are being trained to fill political offices in the United States. Nor have you taken an objective look at what fundamentalist religion does to our world. Perhaps you are one of those people who believes that it's okay for fundamentalist religionists to knock down towers in one country and for the fundamentalist religionists in that country to then go to war against them, dragging the rest of the world's economy down with them.

 

2. There is something wrong with the view that people shouldn't learn math. All of us need basic math skills. We need to know what happens to our bank accounts when we buy stuff. We need to be able to read signs and speedometers, etc. I'm one of those people who would not have learned had it not been drilled into me. There is a difference between going into a math career and not knowing basic math skills. I am talking about basic math skills. I am not the only person who needs to be drilled in order to learn the basics required to live in today's society.

 

3. So if you think knowing science is not important it seems you are missing important life issues. Maybe you don't know that lives are being lost because science is not allowed to progress due to some religious superstitions. If our top politians and those who vote for them are educated in creationism, then they are going to think like you even if they deconvert and they won't allow science to progress because they love their religious parents too much to upset them. They won't consider the ethical issues involved about people dying needlessly because of supersitions. All they will think about is their relationships with their superstitious parents and families. I have a very serious problem with that.

 

4. With major parts of the world's most powerful nation ignorant of science, if not outright believing evolution is evil, the rest of the world is forced to deal with Dark Ages logic. Some of this has already been discussed in this post. However, for a nation like the USA whose leadership depends so heavily on elected officials, what the majority believes in a given voting block has an impact on world politics. Freethinker, how do you expect to continue to be free to think freely if you allow this kind of thinking to continue unhindered? Nay, if you DEFEND this kind of thinking?

 

I cannot believe you interpreted that so badly. What I meant was, a child who has no interest in math or science should not be coerced to earn a college degree and then find employment in math or science.

 

Actually, given the context of a discussion of elementary and secondary education, this was not interpreted badly at all. Basic science and math must be taught regardless of where kids will go in later life. I don't see anyone in this discussion coercing kids into careers for which they are unsuited; rather quite the opposite. All the same, thanks for clarifying. It's good to see young people agreeing about the needs for basic education.

[hereticzero]

We are not robots and clones. We do not all have to know the same thing to get by in life or with each other.

 

But we ARE HZ..

 

We MUST be standardized and replaceable by the *numbers* so business and industry can simply slide one unit out, one unit in as they wear out.

 

How DARE you think you and your child(ren) be DIFFERENT and think otherwise?????!PneEEONe!!!!!!!!???!!!!?

 

There ya go, ya bastard, fucking up the works on the graze ground by helping make sure your shee, err, child is DIFFERENT.. Whatchoo WANT, someone DARE think for themselves and fuckup the WORKS?????

 

Do a websearch for Prussian Method Education and see where we are and what foundations current socialist education is based on.

 

We NEED raise a nation of Leaders, our kids may be the few that aren't stuck in a goobermint assigned rut for life.

 

kL

Thanks, I needed that this morning. Reality is the fucking Matrix. It ain't machines, it's us.

[Taphophilia]

Vietnam... OK Joe Kennedy gets the mob to get the Presidency for JFK. JFK did SE Asian politics as a 'project' at Harvard, and got his fingers in there early... basically he was trying to prove his undergrad theories had some credence, and wanted to show the French (and thus the Old World) what a New World mind could do. He got his head blown off before he saw that he'd failed (although he'd failed before the last Frenchman had shipped out) Some of it was ideological, but a lot was just a spoiled rich kid playing international politics. contrary to popular myth, JFK was about to extend US troops in SE asia... Johnson pulled back some on JFK's plan, which saved a lot of lives on both sides. LBJ was really handed a poisoned chalice when JFK got creamed...

 

People from other countries know more about US history than most Americans do. The sad fact is that US history, as it is taught, is more a lesson in patriotism and heroification than actual history.

[hereticzero]

I have to admit, my bias towards public school goes back a long way. When I was a kid, my family moved all of the time, every year. My dad was a preacher and also worked for the govt. and he was always getting transferred, so by the time I left home, I had traveled through every state in the USA except Hawaii and lived in almost half of them. I've been to more than two dozen different public schools from elementary through high school. There was no homeschooling for me. Some schools were worse than others but I don't know of any that I could say were better than some, it was just that tough in school. I fought everyday of my life until 10th grade before people quit trying to pound the crap out of me for being a 'preacher's kid.' In 6th grade, in Illinois, kids were found dead, face down in the park with their faces buried in paper sacks filled with glue or paint, they huffed themselves to death. We had to dodge child molesters and gangs going back and forth to school, every fucking day! I ran with gang in 6th grade just to get to school and back home in one piece, and to avoid being singled out on the playground like an exercise yard in the sate pen. I've learned martial arts from other kids in school and how to fight so I could get through school alive. Because of this, as an adult, I am very protective of my kid and want to know who he associates with all of the time. I ask his friends questions about what they like to do and who they hang out with. People just don't get close to my kid without going through me first. Social skills need to be the responsiblity of the parents, not the schools. The teacher is not my son's parent, I am.

 

This is why I say 'socialization' is a myth. Most schools do not teach life skills but are more interested in grades which only reflect how well the teacher is performing and not the student. Grades are political and not necessarily an accurate picture of how well you kid is performing in school. My son has ADHA, and when he was much younger, the school could not handle it--if he did not want to participate, he was allowed to sit and do nothing which would show in his grades. So, we chose to homeschool to bring him up to par with where he needed to be academically.

 

Drugs were rampant even in the all white school--not that they did not allow minorities, there were no minorities in my graduation class. Minorities are not the problem in public schools. The problem, as I see it, is the lack of parental instruction that teaches their children to respect other races and how to deal with life. This is taught at home, not at school. Kids float through school with almost no parental supervision except when they are in class. Most kids today are left to teach themselves about life or are ignored because they play all day on the game machine, watch mindless television, while mom and dad fight over bills and money issues. Many parents leave it up to the school to raise their children which is the wrong approach. The public school is not a moral refuge, it is a warehouse for children until they turn 18 or graduate.

 

My wife and I lived in Denver and Lakewood areas and had friends whose kids went to Columbine in Littleton, CO. Fortunately, none of them were physically harmed during the shootout but some would not go back to school afterwards and have to have counselling to this day for PTSD from the trauma. Socialization in school can kill you. It is true that some parents are whacko and kill their kids or teach them bullshit at home but, they will teach their kids bullshit even if they go to public school. They are an exception for homeschoolers and not the norm, whether religious or not.

 

My son would still be at home in homeschool if it were possible. When he was homeschooled, he did not suffer from a lack of friends which he played with after they were out of public school, and on weekends, and holidays--just because a kid is homeschooled does not mean he is cut off from the outside world. My son is the one that wanted to go back to public school. He is a teenager and is interested in meeting girls and sports and that stuff. As long as he is making the grade he can continue with public school but if it appears that he is failing due to drugs, which I am confident he does not do, or fighting or his life is in danger, then he will come back home until he graduates from our homeschool, which by the way can continue until the parent is satisfied with the child's performance. It can go beyond 18 years of age. In public school, they may only keep a kid until he is 18 and then boot him out to go get a GED, when all he may need is another two years to come up to the level of a 12th grader. Some kids need that extra two years or more.

[Grandpa Harley]

Tahp,

Well, I'm not sure I'm a typical example of anything... I usually have a handle on the stuff they don't teach in schools... I only know the JFK stuff since my brother is something of a Monday morning quarter back on Military tactics, and his interests really end at Austerlitz...

[Taphophilia]

Tahp,

Well, I'm not sure I'm a typical example of anything... I usually have a handle on the stuff they don't teach in schools... I only know the JFK stuff since my brother is something of a Monday morning quarter back on Military tactics, and his interests really end at Austerlitz...

 

I used to be on a now defunct history forum. The people from other countries knew more about US history than most Americans. For instance, Russian kids are taught in school that the US bribed the Russian Imperial government to stay in WWI, which lead to the Bulshivik revolution and it played a key role in the Cold War. Also, the US entered a stalemated war which would have ended in a comprimised peace. The actions of the US, utimately led to the deaths of over 100,000,000 people during the 20th century.